The End Of The Ledge?

BigG80 · Post by **BigG80** » 14 Sep 2010, 13:33

British fans will no doubt start to rejoice this afternoon after reading this news and perhaps even wish that it was Legard being replaced with five races to go rather than De La Rosa.

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_ ... t_id=42028

But who is your choice for his replacement?

A return by James Allen? One of the ITV4 BTTC commentators who seem pretty knowledgable and not particularly irritating? Or Charlie Cox as mooted in the article?

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 14 Sep 2010, 13:51

BigG80 wrote:British fans will no doubt start to rejoice this afternoon after reading this news and perhaps even wish that it was Legard being replaced with five races to go rather than De La Rosa.

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_ ... t_id=42028

But who is your choice for his replacement?

A return by James Allen? One of the ITV4 BTTC commentators who seem pretty knowledgable and not particularly irritating? Or Charlie Cox as mooted in the article?

Charlie Cox could probably move across, but him & Stavros together make MotoGP interesting & entertaining & I wouldn't want to lose that.
Maybe Crofty or Maurice Hamilton could move up from 5 live?
Wouldn't be too upset if Allen returned.
Having said that Legard doesn't really bother me as I tend to tune him out a bit & listen to MB more. Although I am aware that he says quite a lot of daft things, (without having Murray's genuine enthusiasm & knowledge as a counter).

Vassago · Post by **Vassago** » 14 Sep 2010, 14:00

Bring back Ben Edwards FFS :twisted:

Post by **mario** » 14 Sep 2010, 14:02

BigG80 wrote:British fans will no doubt start to rejoice this afternoon after reading this news and perhaps even wish that it was Legard being replaced with five races to go rather than De La Rosa.

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_ ... t_id=42028

But who is your choice for his replacement?

A return by James Allen? One of the ITV4 BTTC commentators who seem pretty knowledgable and not particularly irritating? Or Charlie Cox as mooted in the article?

Considering how often he cuts across Brundle, I am not surprised if he was keen to see him replaced.

As to who might replace him, I would prefer it if it was somebody who has been connected with F1, so they could offer a more rounded perspective on events, although Charlie Cox probably would have the experience in commentating to pull off the job.

Probably, though, the best bet would be to transfer somebody across from the Radio 5 live team - Davidson, Maurice Hamilton or Crofty would all make good replacements. A slight curveball would be Chandhok, if he was unable to find a seat with one of the teams - he is eloquent, witty and has already been a regular on the Radio 5 team during the practise sessions alongside Davidson and Crofty (and occasionally in place of Davidson, when he is called up for driving duties for Peugeot).

patrick · Post by **patrick** » 14 Sep 2010, 14:07

Legard doesn't really bother me, neither did Allen despite the fact they were both a bit silly. They only really seem to bother the autosport-forum-fanboy types.

Cox should stay with MotoGP, but the article suggests Brundle wants him and if they get on then it's probably worth a try. The 5live team work well together and it would be a shame to split any of them up - davidson, crofty, hamilton, chandhok.
Maybe 5live will get a new team and try putting brundle with crofty and davidson (or chandhok/hamilton when ant is racing in LMS)

Some people have suggested Ted Kravitz, but the job he does in the pitlane is stellar and I don't really think he would be suited to nonstop commentary - although he is very intelligent and has a lot of knowledge.

The BTCC guy is Ben Edwards I think, he seems popular online.

BigG80 · Post by **BigG80** » 14 Sep 2010, 14:16

Edited following Patrick's comment.

My personal preference would be for David Croft but as Patrick says I am loath to break up the 5 Live gang who are always entertaining even when the track is empty!

Otherwise James Allen now seems like a positive beacon of commentating excellence after the past couple of seasons. For all of his faults, his knowledge and the information he gleaned from the teams made his commentary much more interesting during dull races.

Ben Edwards is very good. Sounds enthusiastic and knowledgable.

And Ted Kravitz has to stay in the pitlane, he is brilliant at that job.

Vassago · Post by **Vassago** » 14 Sep 2010, 14:19

Anybody who followed F1@Eurosport, CART's heyday in 1997-2001 and even the A1 GP recently should know how good Edwards actually is

Kravitz as pit reporter is as lame as James Allen was in mid 90s, Louise Goodman was truly the best

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 14 Sep 2010, 14:23

Big Brother has finished so Davina McCall, she used to do F1 "coverage" for MTV. :lol:

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 14 Sep 2010, 14:30

"He's gone right up there!"

This would be brilliant if true. I feel bad wishing for the end of a man's career, but he really is dismal. Endlessly cutting across Martin Brundle about to say something relevant, just to ramble on and on about nothing, is especially irritating. And I'm not Schumacher fan myself, but his anti-Schumacher bias is really obvious and embarrassing. The delight with which he emphasises MS's lowly grid positions makes me shudder.

Karun has been brilliant on the free practice commentaries, he'd be a breath of fresh air on race day. Not sure about Crofty, I find him slightly smug and he doesn't seem to take anything seriously, but he would be an improvement over The Ledge. I never disliked James Allen, so I'd be all for him coming back.

patrick · Post by **patrick** » 14 Sep 2010, 14:33

fjackdaw wrote:"He's gone right up there!"

argh, now that you mention that the season-so-far reviews are quite annoying, with a compilation of legardisms

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 14 Sep 2010, 14:43

Karun & Davidson are both very good on 5 live as Summarisers, but have no commentator experience. A good commentator knows when to talk, when to let the action speak for itself & when to defer (or refer) to the expert alongside him. On that basis Crofty/Hamilton would be the immediate obvious choices. I haven't seen enough ITV, C4 or C5 stuff to have an opinion on their guys. Cox I think (as before) would be pretty good but don't want to break up the MotoGP team.

f1-gast · Post by **f1-gast** » 14 Sep 2010, 14:46

Who is legard ?

BigG80 · Post by **BigG80** » 14 Sep 2010, 14:52

f1-gast wrote:Who is legard ?

He is the BBC F1 commentator and despite his name being similar to "Legend," he is the complete opposite.

Memorable pieces of Jonathan Legard commentary include:

"Up the hill, down the hill"
"Pushing on"
"Knows the time to beat"
"Button on a charge"
"Vettel on a charge"
"Alonso on a charge"
"And here comes so and so, what sort of time will this be" - as the driver starts his flying lap
"The start line is before the finishing line which you can just see blah blah blah"
"Through the left hander, now the right and down the straight they go"
"Woof" - I kid you not on this one. He says "Woof" quite a lot
"And so and so has gone purple in Sector 1. What a time!"

kowalski · Post by **kowalski** » 14 Sep 2010, 14:58

Yes, he is somewhat of a knob & and it would be nice to see him go...

Though - he is actually a lot better than James Allen who was one of the worst commentators i have ever heard (though he actually writes pretty well).

They both suffer from their 'fake' excitement and the fact they talk absolute nonsense just for the sake of filling up time. Anyway...

I also can't really stand the 'comic 3-some' of Jordan, Coulthard and the other guy before races but i make sure i only turn it on in time to see the gridwalk and the actual race.

Jordan192 · Post by **Jordan192** » 14 Sep 2010, 15:08

I guess the question is whether brundle's still the ex-driver summariser or whether he's now graduated (he has been doing it for nigh on 15 years) to the primary commentator role.
As much as I like Davidson and Chandhok, I'd like to think they've both got too much racing left in them to go into the box full-time.
I do Like charlie cox, but I don't quite think he's right for F1 (also "Got the magnets on" would become the new "Up the hill, down the hill") As already mentioned, the only realistic candidates are either Crofty or Ben Edwards, neither of which I would complain about,
If they take Edwards, that leaves the ITV BTCC gig free for, say, John Hindhaugh, while Legard goes back to Radio 5 for bottom-half-of-the-premiership football (oh, sweet justice)...

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 14 Sep 2010, 15:14

The Legard qualifying favourite of last year, though he has toned it down for this year, was "that'll do", whenever anyone posted a time. Even when it clearly wouldn't do, even when someone had just posted a time one place out of the knock-out zone - "That'll do!".

He does say "woof!" a lot! A sort of breathless exclamation indicating that the action is far too tense and exciting for him to possibly be keep up with.

"And MICHAEL SCHUMACHER down in FIFTEENTH!!!"

EDIT: Another good point, picked up from the comments section in a different Pitpass article about him: "Don’t know how to say this without sounding daft but just be more British. A good example is the Badoer thing. We Brits always like the underdog but also give people a chance and support them in trouble. I can’t help feeling some of your comments about Luca were a little cruel and uncalled for."

He really laid into poor Luca, which seemed especially unfair since Jonathan himself was struggling with his new job just as much.

patrick · Post by **patrick** » 14 Sep 2010, 15:44

eagleash wrote:Karun & Davidson are both very good on 5 live as Summarisers, but have no commentator experience.

I was actually surprised how well karun commentates on current action, such as onboard laps. He really manages to fit in as a play-by-play commentator and you forget he was ever an HRT driver (

)
Now that I think about it a pairing of Karun and Brundle could have a lot of potential, as they both have the knowledge - as current and past drivers - and a lot of respect from the british fans and the bbc too. Although we all hope he gets a drive for next year!!

Dom · Post by **Dom** » 14 Sep 2010, 16:01

Do you know what I think they should do? A Pop Idol style commentator search. It would fill hours of winter airtime with F1-related stuff and there must be hundreds of knowledgeable fans out there who could do a decent job. Hell, I'd give it a go.

Warren Hughes · Post by **Warren Hughes** » 14 Sep 2010, 16:03

This thread contravened Hughes' Law before it even started...

*driver exits final corner of quali lap, approaching finish line*
JL: 'Is this gonna be good enough?!'
*driver crosses line to set time 0.05s off pole when he was expected to be on the 2nd or 3rd row at best*
JL: 'Not good enough'

Pisses me off no end

I like Dom's idea. I'd definitely have a go, I must know more about F1 than JL (as do most people on this forum to be fair)

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 14 Sep 2010, 16:11

I'll replace him if you want. Or Ben Edwards, he's a very good commentator.

pablo_h · Post by **pablo_h** » 14 Sep 2010, 16:20

Yeah legard is a dolt.
I look forward to seeing practice sessions because the commentators are so much better than what you get during the race from BBC
for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikasr6UkqY8

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 14 Sep 2010, 16:57

Warren Hughes wrote:This thread contravened Hughes' Law before it even started...

I did remember that.

Let's not get excited, people. It's just an article on pit-pass for now. It's clear Legard and Brundle don't work well together (Brundle notoriously leaves him hanging from time to time, possibly because Legard interrupts him), so maybe they do need to reconsider.

Now, I remember when I first arrived in Britain and pointing the finger at Allen was all the rage. Saw some 3 races commented by him, and had not much to say against any of it. I also have nothing much against Legard, to be honest - I repeat that if you guys had to put up with Portuguese commentators (on a pay-TV channel!), you'd either quit or riot.

I also think that no commentator (except, perhaps, Toby Moody) has the slightest chance of making it. As long as we can log on to YouTube and listen to Murray Walker stopping the startwatch. I am actually surprised Brundle made it, but reckon most people think he can't fill Hunt's shoes.

ADx_Wales · Post by **ADx_Wales** » 14 Sep 2010, 17:00

Toby Moody
Jack Burnacle (Eurosport Suberbikes)
Charlie Cox
Ben Edwards
John Hindhaugh
Paul Page
Martin Brundle on his own.
What Kostas suggested ages ago, Brian Blessed and an ex footballer with a northern accent who's name I cannot remember.

ANYTHING but James Allen.

dragonsteincole · Post by **dragonsteincole** » 14 Sep 2010, 17:24

"Battle has been resumed between..." is another one to add to the Legard Bingo Card of Crapness.

As for replacements? Ever since 1996, the last year of F1 being shown on Eurosport, i've wanted Ben Edwards to have gotten a proper chance to commentate on the F1. Although I have a lingering doubt that an Edwards/Brundle team will be inferior to Edwards and John Watson.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 14 Sep 2010, 17:26

CarlosFerreira wrote:
Warren Hughes wrote:This thread contravened Hughes' Law before it even started...

I did remember that.

Let's not get excited, people. It's just an article on pit-pass for now. It's clear Legard and Brundle don't work well together (Brundle notoriously leaves him hanging from time to time, possibly because Legard interrupts him), so maybe they do need to reconsider.

Now, I remember when I first arrived in Britain and pointing the finger at Allen was all the rage. Saw some 3 races commented by him, and had not much to say against any of it. I also have nothing much against Legard, to be honest - I repeat that if you guys had to put up with Portuguese commentators (on a pay-TV channel!), you'd either quit or riot.

I also think that no commentator (except, perhaps, Toby Moody) has the slightest chance of making it. As long as we can log on to YouTube and listen to Murray Walker stopping the startwatch. I am actually surprised Brundle made it, but reckon most people think he can't fill Hunt's shoes.

The BBC has a fantastic reputation for first rate commentators down the years on all sports. Murray in Motorsport had his equivalent in other fields (O'Sullevan, Arlott, Maskell, Wolstenholme etc). Some were equally foot in mouth on occasion (hence the several volumes of "Colemanballs"). All however knew their stuff & were enthusiastic. Legard definitely falls short of the high standards we expect from Auntie Beeb.
MB might make a good commentator he has the knowledge & is a natural broadcaster. His first season was 1997 & he slipped into it as if he'd been doing it for a while. His rep. was as a thinking driver & he was respected by all parties for his work with the GPDA & his input into some circuit re-designs. Not something Hunt would ever have been considered for or accused of, although he was often brilliant as a summariser.

Debaser · Post by **Debaser** » 14 Sep 2010, 17:27

Revs are up, ready for a start!!!

I hope to hear this next season, I'd prefer more irreverent commentary and Cox provides that. Saying that hearing a cat scratching metal is an improvement to listening to Legard

Warren Hughes · Post by **Warren Hughes** » 14 Sep 2010, 17:29

What about teaming Brundle up with another ex-driver (a bit like snooker or tennis commentary)?

Martin Brundle with Damon Hill?
Martin Brundle with Derek Warwick?
Martin Brundle with PERRY McCARTHY???

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 14 Sep 2010, 18:08

I think Eagleash could replicate Murray Walker.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 14 Sep 2010, 18:38

fjackdaw wrote:"He's gone right up there!"

This would be brilliant if true. I feel bad wishing for the end of a man's career, but he really is dismal. Endlessly cutting across Martin Brundle about to say something relevant, just to ramble on and on about nothing, is especially irritating. And I'm not Schumacher fan myself, but his anti-Schumacher bias is really obvious and embarrassing. The delight with which he emphasises MS's lowly grid positions makes me shudder.

Karun has been brilliant on the free practice commentaries, he'd be a breath of fresh air on race day. Not sure about Crofty, I find him slightly smug and he doesn't seem to take anything seriously, but he would be an improvement over The Ledge. I never disliked James Allen, so I'd be all for him coming back.

Bingo! Somebody buy this guy a beverage of his choice!

pablo_h wrote:Yeah legard is a dolt.
I look forward to seeing practice sessions because the commentators are so much better than what you get during the race from BBC
for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikasr6UkqY8

This is a brilliant find. Really highlights the difference. And it was the radio guys who noticed the yellow flag and commented that Schumacher had stopped at turn 8, wondering why. So often Legard and Brundle don't comment on things like that that I am left wondering about.

ADx_Wales · Post by **ADx_Wales** » 14 Sep 2010, 19:07

Trouble is , The Radio commentary is always more talk, because thats all you hear, and you NEED to hear, Legard was brilliant on the radio, according to those who listened to it back when ITV had the coverage, so It would seem a straight swap would be feasible.

Jordan192 · Post by **Jordan192** » 14 Sep 2010, 19:41

ADx_Wales wrote:Trouble is , The Radio commentary is always more talk, because thats all you hear, and you NEED to hear, Legard was brilliant on the radio, according to those who listened to it back when ITV had the coverage, so It would seem a straight swap would be feasible.

Nah, Legard was always weak, even on the radio. Five Live is basically a football station, and other sports are either covered by commentators who are truly passionate about their sport (Cornelius Lysett for Racing, Johnathon Overend for Tennis) or just not considered good enough for football. How readily Legard jumped on a 'promotion' to do bottom-half premiership football tells you what you need to know about why he was in F1.
Crofty's not perfect by any means, and I've yet to work out which camp he falls into, but he's definitely a better radio comentator than Legard was, and after 2 years now it's clear Legard's not working as a TV commentator.

Tealy · Post by **Tealy** » 14 Sep 2010, 19:44

Warren Hughes wrote:This thread contravened Hughes' Law before it even started...

*driver exits final corner of quali lap, approaching finish line*
JL: 'Is this gonna be good enough?!'
*driver crosses line to set time 0.05s off pole when he was expected to be on the 2nd or 3rd row at best*
JL: 'Not good enough'

Pisses me off no end

I like Dom's idea. I'd definitely have a go, I must know more about F1 than JL (as do most people on this forum to be fair)

We could have our own John Hindhaugh sound-alike then

Barbazza · Post by **Barbazza** » 14 Sep 2010, 19:57

I'm not mad keen on Legard and was more than willing to give him a chance but if anything I think he's got worse this year.

Sad to say, but I don't think Ben Edwards has been on top form for BTCC this season either unless it's having to cope with permagrinned idiot Tim 'Only won a championship because my team mate pushed off all my rivals' Harvey for company that's made him lose his marbles.

So I don't know who to suggest. Certainly NOT James Allen, couldn't stand him. Maybe David Croft would be the best bet.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 14 Sep 2010, 20:12

Somebody mentioned Brian Blessed up in the thread. Come to think of it, it's the perfect choice. :mrgreen:

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 14 Sep 2010, 20:38

My reaction if Legard leaves. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh3_tXRRR8o&feature=related

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 14 Sep 2010, 20:59

I also remember Legard describing Massa's near-fatal spring-related accident as "a bit of a knock on the chin". To be fair, he didn't know the severity of it yet, but on the downside, he didn't know the severity of it yet.

Warren Hughes · Post by **Warren Hughes** » 14 Sep 2010, 21:32

Tealy wrote:
Warren Hughes wrote:This thread contravened Hughes' Law before it even started...

*driver exits final corner of quali lap, approaching finish line*
JL: 'Is this gonna be good enough?!'
*driver crosses line to set time 0.05s off pole when he was expected to be on the 2nd or 3rd row at best*
JL: 'Not good enough'

Pisses me off no end

I like Dom's idea. I'd definitely have a go, I must know more about F1 than JL (as do most people on this forum to be fair)

We could have our own John Hindhaugh sound-alike then

We'll do it together Tealy, form some sort of mackem double act

eytl · Post by **eytl** » 15 Sep 2010, 02:45

I have a theory about what made Murray Walker so loved and both Allen and Legard both so loathed.

For all his reputation for being the "muddly talker", and for all the famous errors he made, Murray wasn't just a "play by play" commentator with Hunt, Palmer, Brundle etc. as the expert next to him. I've noticed that Murray's modus operandi was to describe something that's happening and then provide a lot of background details.

For example, he would describe a driver going through Pouhon, and then tell you that Pouhon was a corner taken in which gear, and at what speed at the apex, and then provide some further comments about the driver (e.g. where he started on the grid, how many points he's scored this year, other teams he's driven for, background before F1 etc.).

In other words, Walker's commentary was deceptively high in information. The other thing which he managed to maintain was an awe for the people he was commentating on as if he looked up to them as heroes, even if they were young enough to be his grandkids. In other words, he managed to sound like an enthusiast, and a humble one at that - which works well with the sidekick because he gives them room to provide the analysis. And that also means that when Walker's biases came out, it could be excused - because, let's face it, who is completely objective?

This is something neither Allen and Legard have managed to do. Typically when Allen ran out of things to describe, he had nothing more to say or he'd try to drum up some inane cliche (even though he could have done what Walker did and fill in the dull moments with lots of info because he certainly knows enough about the sport), plus he sounded like the journalist he was. When Legard runs out of things to describe, he just keeps talking anyway but he shows that, although his memory of particular events in the history of F1 is surprisingly strong, otherwise his knowledge is not that great.

Aside from genuine enthusiasts like Walker, the other type that works well these days are ex-drivers like Brundle who are knowledgeable, eloquent, and also slightly cynical because (a) it's entertaining, and (b) it stops viewers from taking things too seriously. In Aussie V8s, the likes of Neil Crompton, Mark Skaife and Mark Larkham serve a similar purpose. Personally, I've always wanted to see Crompton and Brundle call F1 together.

Alternatively, I've always wanted to give live commentary a go myself but, as is plainly evident from the podcasts, it would be a complete disaster!

LukeB · Post by **LukeB** » 15 Sep 2010, 04:09

Anyone who thinks James "Lewisteria" Allen was better then Legard is clearly suffering some kind of horrible memory problem and ought to seek out medical assistance immediately!

That said, Legard annoys the hell out of me. What is Maurice Hamilton doing now Croft covers qualifiying and the race? Or just make Brundle the commentator, he's good enough. Hell the mans been single handidly carrying Allen and Legard for most his carrer without so much as raising his voice (or hand) to either of them which deserves a medal, a knighthood, and being ordained as a saint.

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 15 Sep 2010, 07:50

Vassago wrote:Bring back Ben Edwards FFS

Ben Edwards is known for freaking out at every overtaking opportunity. Which while that's a good thing for F1, it made him look like a bit of a buffoon for CART... Needless to say, he'd do a good job I think if he just stuck to his usual form.

Former drivers do make good commentators to an extent. I'm actually currently watching a Champ Car race being called by Jeremy Shaw and Mario Haberfeld. Let's say Haberfeld's commentary is about as good as his driving was...

But then you have the true motoring enthusiast-types like David Hobbs, Martin Brundle, Scott Goodyear, and Eddie Cheever who do a great job in their respected fields. Scott Goodyear seems to be more of a play-by-play commentator than a color commentator, and his commentary is rather interesting as he's able to give the driver's perspective and a neutral one at the same time.

A good commentary team meshes well and lifts the serious mood every so often. Paul Page managed to do this with just about everyone he was with during his CART/IRL coverage, especially with Bobby Unser and Sam Posey. On one instance when Bobby Unser was critical of something Al Unser, Jr. had done on the track, Paul Page was quick to say; "Wait, Bobby Unser said something negative about Little Al?! I gotta remember that..." -- playing off the perceived biases of Bobby Unser into humor.

The U.S. F1 commentary is able to do this as well.

NASCAR commentators fail miserably at this.