Jean Todt on Team Orders

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rffp
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Jean Todt on Team Orders

Post by rffp »

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88393

Jean Todt says Ferrari's use of team orders in the German Grand Prix was too 'provocative' for the FIA not to take action, but underlined that he believes many other teams have employed similar tactics in more subtle ways since the rules banning team orders were introduced.

Ferrari was fined by the Hockenheim race stewards after Felipe Massa moved aside to allow team-mate Fernando Alonso to take the race win. Although the team was summoned to appear before the FIA World Motor Sport Council, the council chose not to take any further action and announced that it would revisit the team orders regulations to see if they needed amending.

"Team orders are banned since 2002, however I've asked myself: how many times have orders been issued in a 'soft' way since then?" Todt told La Stampa.

"The difference is that the one issued by Ferrari was everything but soft. It was a provocation against the regulations."

He suggested that the review of the rules would see the regulation modified rather than scrapped altogether.

"It will be controlled by regulations," Todt said. "F1 is a team sport, every team will take responsibility for their own behaviour. Lies, or coded messages such as 'save fuel', will not be tolerated."

In an interview with Gazzetta dello Sport, the FIA president added: "The team orders rule must be changed in a way that avoids the hypocrisy of grotesque communications between pit and cars.

"I've asked the Sporting Working Group for a proposal, I hope it will come by 9 December, in time for the world council in Monte Carlo."

Todt acknowledged that he had played a part in creating the team orders controversy during his time at Ferrari, when Rubens Barrichello famously pulled over within sight of the line at Zeltweg in 2002 to hand the win to team-mate Michael Schumacher.

Asked by La Stampa if he regretted that incident, Todt replied: "I do, because with hindsight it could have been avoided: Schumacher would have won the championship anyway. However, I would have had more regrets had I lost the title for a couple of points."

He felt Barrichello's handling of the situation had inflamed the problem.

"I shouldn't have needed to tell him anything," Todt said. "We had agreed earlier: 'if you're ahead after the pitstop, you must let Schumacher through with no fuss.'"

"He agreed: besides, a driver is paid to accept certain decisions. Instead, he would stay ahead. I called him 50 times and I repeated it clearly. He moved over at the last turn, the public whistled, Schumi gave him the top spot at the podium ceremony, and Ferrari was fined for infringing the protocol: 500,000 dollars."


Some comments:

- How is FIFA going to "uncode" the coded team orders? If FIA didn' take action against Ferrari for the Hockemheim episode, I don't think they will take action against some technical instruction which is way more subtle than "Fernando is faster than you";
- Now it is Barrichello's fault the 2002 Austrian farce? Give me a break!
- This is a guy who back in 1989 flipped a coin to decide the winner of the Dakar rally, and that is the epitome of team orders, I doubt we will ever witness another pathetic event such as that one. How dare he criticices others for issuing team orders!
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Re: Jean Todt on Team Orders

Post by Ferrim »

rffp wrote:- Now it is Barrichello's fault the 2002 Austrian farce? Give me a break!


Didn't Barrichello disobey his team's orders? Didn't he wait until the last possible moment so that everyone knew that he was gifting Schumacher the win? Didn't he go to Ferrari in the knowledge that he would have to play second fiddle to Schumacher? And I have every reason to believe Todt when he says that they talked about it prior to the race, so add that one, too.
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Re: Jean Todt on Team Orders

Post by Phoenix »

If they're going to modify the rule, then I think it should be rewritten like this: "Any team may use team orders IF one of the drivers needs the extra points to climb places in the championship. Team orders may only be issued after 75% of the championship is completed, always taking into account the aforementioned."
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Re: Jean Todt on Team Orders

Post by ADx_Wales »

Jean Todt says Ferrari's use of team orders in the German Grand Prix was too 'provocative' for the FIA not to take action, but underlined that he believes many other teams have employed similar tactics in more subtle ways since the rules banning team orders were introduced.


Provocative, to provoke?

So if someone murders someone in front of EVERYONE, the police dont take action?

Bollocks.
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Re: Jean Todt on Team Orders

Post by Aerospeed »

How about this?

If any team blatently makes team orders (i.e, through the team radio) then the team will be penalized. However, if the team used tactics to win a race, and if nothing ever changes through the race, it will be allowed. If any team orders a driver to move over through pit radio or any other means of communication during the race (such as a pit sign), then the race marshalls will gladly give the driver that gets the advantage big enough of a penalty to bring the driver that originally wins (or the driver which is the winner) to be brought down to second place. For example, if a Driver A was in the lead, but team orders made Driver B go into the lead, and eventually wins by three seconds, and beat the third-placed driver by ten seconds, then Driver B will get a five-second penalty, putting Driver A as the winner, Driver B in second. However, if Driver A was not in second, then Driver B will be given a penalty until that Driver B is behind Driver A. If Driver A retires intentionally, then Driver B will be disqualified. However, if Driver A retires unintentionally (i.e. an engine failure) then Driver B will not be penalized in any matter whatsoever. In any cases whatsoever, the team will be fined 500,000 Euros (That's $694223 Canadian Dollars, and the Canadian Dollar is about par in America).
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Re: Jean Todt on Team Orders

Post by F1000X »

"Let Michael pass for ze to championship!" is all that needs to be said.

On a more serious note, I agree with sentiment that overt team orders must be punished, but trying to disect orders like "save fuel" or "look after your tires" or "high temps" will be a process that will yield wildly inconsistent and perpetually controversial results.
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Re: Jean Todt on Team Orders

Post by LionZoo »

Ferrim wrote:
rffp wrote:- Now it is Barrichello's fault the 2002 Austrian farce? Give me a break!


Didn't Barrichello disobey his team's orders? Didn't he wait until the last possible moment so that everyone knew that he was gifting Schumacher the win? Didn't he go to Ferrari in the knowledge that he would have to play second fiddle to Schumacher? And I have every reason to believe Todt when he says that they talked about it prior to the race, so add that one, too.


I'm not going to wade into this too much, but since I pride myself on being a professional, I have to say that I feel Todt has a point in that Barrichello's behavior on that day is unprofessional. He had a job to do in the team, and a duty to protect the team's image (I'm sure that was in his contract). In my opinion he definitely tried to embarrass the team that day and thus breached his duty.

Now having said that, I know the opinion of others will differ. That is fine since I'm sure I approach the sport very differently from others. For a lot of people, it is an emotional thing, but I am probably much colder and more calculating in how I would approach F1 compared to quite a few posters on here.
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Re: Jean Todt on Team Orders

Post by Aerond »

The only one spitting hypocrisy here is Mr. Todt.

Come on, a fu***ng company is spending 300 millions a year on the best available car technology to win the championship. Team orders are always going to exist, and it´s plainly stupid to pretend they can be banned, or should be avoided at all costs. I mean, there´s a lot of investment behind to just let happen things like the Red Bull affair in Turkey. THAT WAS STUPID. If there should be a limit, it should be just something like the drivers changing positions if they´re on consecutive positions.
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Re: Jean Todt on Team Orders

Post by TimmyB »

Aerond wrote: If there should be a limit, it should be just something like the drivers changing positions if they´re on consecutive positions.


Absolutely agree with this and I've said it before... let the drivers race and allow the teams to switch the points awarded for their two drivers if they are in consecutive positions.

That way, (for example), Massa could have still taken the champagne and trophy for winning the German GP and Alonso could still take maximum points.
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Re: Jean Todt on Team Orders

Post by Myrvold »

Yeah... Massa on top when Alonso wins O.o
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Re: Jean Todt on Team Orders

Post by F1000X »

Myrvold wrote:Yeah... Massa on top when Alonso wins O.o


Agreed. Team sport or not, thats a ridiculous idea. I'd almost be happier to see single car teams than allowing teams to manipulate their drivers finishing orders.
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Re: Jean Todt on Team Orders

Post by Shizuka »

F1000X wrote:"Let Michael pass for ze to championship!" is all that needs to be said.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlPrj9a88ME

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Re: Jean Todt on Team Orders

Post by dr-baker »

Shizuka wrote:
F1000X wrote:"Let Michael pass for ze to championship!" is all that needs to be said.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlPrj9a88ME

I found the following comment after that YouTube clip amusing:

What was Rubens supposed to? do? Todt said please

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Re: Jean Todt on Team Orders

Post by TimmyB »

F1000X wrote:Agreed. Team sport or not, thats a ridiculous idea. I'd almost be happier to see single car teams than allowing teams to manipulate their drivers finishing orders.


But I'm not talking about manipulating the finishing order, just switching the points awarded. It wouldn't happen THAT often and I'd prefer for the manipulation to happen the day after the race rather than during the race in front of a paying crowd and a TV audience.

Ok, maybe I'll stop raising this idea as I've had negative feedback a couple of times now. :oops:
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Re: Jean Todt on Team Orders

Post by Ross Prawn »

Vitaly Petrov has suggested a typically Russian solution to this issue, in an interview after Abu Dabi:-

Q. Sebastian Vettel gave a big thanks to you to keep Fernando Alonso behind. Did you rather a Red Bull won than a Ferrari?

VP: I just want to be champion myself. I don't think he needs to say thank you, because I did not do this for him, and I didn't want to disturb Fernando – I just wanted to do my job.

But maybe I should have asked on my team radio, please ask Vettel how much he wants to pay me to help, and then we go to Ferrari and ask them the same too. Then whoever gives the most, we see!


So maybe we should live on-line bribery of drivers which can be broadcast at the same as the race. More interesting than 'Fernando is faster then you', or 'Please switch to fuel mode Z1B'. ;)
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Re: Jean Todt on Team Orders

Post by Myrvold »

TimmyB wrote:
F1000X wrote:Agreed. Team sport or not, thats a ridiculous idea. I'd almost be happier to see single car teams than allowing teams to manipulate their drivers finishing orders.


But I'm not talking about manipulating the finishing order, just switching the points awarded. It wouldn't happen THAT often and I'd prefer for the manipulation to happen the day after the race rather than during the race in front of a paying crowd and a TV audience.

Ok, maybe I'll stop raising this idea as I've had negative feedback a couple of times now. :oops:


And then, if Vettel had finished the spot behind Webber in Monza, what would you have done?
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Re: Jean Todt on Team Orders

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I bet my vintage "Bring Back Baumgartner" T shirt, that EYTL cannot pass up comment on this topic.
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Re: Jean Todt on Team Orders

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captainhappy wrote:I bet my vintage "Bring Back Baumgartner" T shirt, that EYTL cannot pass up comment on this topic.

Not a real reply, but I love the new sig.
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Re: Jean Todt on Team Orders

Post by amunt »

As Formula One is supposed to be a team sport, the most logical way to resolve the team orders issue would be cancelling the Drivers' Championship and making Constructors' Championship the only major trophy; this way it would make no difference for the teams, which one of their cars wins the race or scores more points, that's it
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Re: Jean Todt on Team Orders

Post by Aerospeed »

amunt wrote:As Formula One is supposed to be a team sport, the most logical way to resolve the team orders issue would be cancelling the Drivers' Championship and making Constructors' Championship the only major trophy; this way it would make no difference for the teams, which one of their cars wins the race or scores more points, that's it


Hmm? The only reason why most people race in F1 is to win the WDC, are you crazy? In fact, 26 out of the 27 drivers who started a race this season wants to win the WDC... the exception being Sakon Yamamoto, who's there to become like de Cesaris and become a moving chicane... figures for a pay driver.
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Re: Jean Todt on Team Orders

Post by F1000X »

amunt wrote:As Formula One is supposed to be a team sport, the most logical way to resolve the team orders issue would be cancelling the Drivers' Championship and making Constructors' Championship the only major trophy; this way it would make no difference for the teams, which one of their cars wins the race or scores more points, that's it


If you cancel the drivers championship, I and pretty much every F1 fan I know would lose interest. The drivers championship existed BEFORE the constructors, that to me answers the question of weather this is a drivers sport, or a teams sport at its core.
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Re: Jean Todt on Team Orders

Post by AndreaModa »

Guys, amunt doesn't want to do that, he's explaining that getting rid of the drivers' championship is the only way for a supposed 'team sport' to completely remove team orders from the racing. He's not advocating it, just explaining it! Give him a break! :)
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Re: Jean Todt on Team Orders

Post by amunt »

Of course, this is clearly unrealistic, this will never be done, and the proposition is somewhat ad absurdum and sarcastic anyway. Team orders' opponents just have to accept that as long as F1 stays a team sport, team tactics and team orders will always exist in one form or another. Pretending to eliminate them is even more hypocritical than the orders themselves, so just let the teams handle their cars as they see fit
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Re: Jean Todt on Team Orders

Post by Phoenix »

JeremyMcClean wrote:
amunt wrote:As Formula One is supposed to be a team sport, the most logical way to resolve the team orders issue would be cancelling the Drivers' Championship and making Constructors' Championship the only major trophy; this way it would make no difference for the teams, which one of their cars wins the race or scores more points, that's it


Hmm? The only reason why most people race in F1 is to win the WDC, are you crazy? In fact, 26 out of the 27 drivers who started a race this season wants to win the WDC... the exception being Sakon Yamamoto, who's there to become like de Cesaris and become a moving chicane... figures for a pay driver.

On a F1 Racing issue, Yamamoto said he wanted to be there to show his talent to top teams, and he didn't discard the possibility of being WDC. Seriously...
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Re: Jean Todt on Team Orders

Post by Myrvold »

You cannot, as a racing driver tell yourself "you are good enough now, and the team is good enough, I will never win anything". You have to tell yourself " I will win EVERYTHING! I am the best!"
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