Can Vettel overtake?

[Dom]

As part of a spirited debate on who the best driver was in F1 this year (I argued Kubica narrowly ahead of Kobayashi) I heard someone make the point that Vettel couldn't possibly be judged the best driver of the season because of the mistakes he made while overtaking in Turkey and Spain. This got me thinking; did Vettel actually ever pass a good car on track (aside from at the first corner)? I know people brought it up during the season and I just assumed that was just selective memory, but racking my brains now I can't think of Vettel passing any of the other top cars (i.e. Webber, Hamilton, Button, Alonso, Massa, Rosberg, Schumacher and Kubica). Can any of you correct or confirm this?

[rffp]

I will always remember Vettel overtaking Hamilton here in 2008 and giving me for about 2 laps moments of joy... until Glock took that away!

[ANZ_TF110]

My first post...yep he can overtake, Im not sure if he has matured up yet tough. Remember he is only 23!

[QuickYoda41]

Most of the time he couldn't overtake anybody because there was no one ahead.

He actually overtook Kubica in Spa, but that's easily forgotten after the Button-accident at the same race.

[Cynon]

There is a serious problem with Formula 1 cars and drivers when people need to be reminded that someone who wasn't driving a Renault or named Kobayashi actually put a passing move on someone on the racetrack.

[F1000X]

There is a serious problem with Formula 1 cars and drivers when people need to be reminded that someone who wasn't driving a Renault or named Kobayashi actually put a passing move on someone on the racetrack.

Whats you're take on F1 using something like the Hanford device?

[Cynon]

There is a serious problem with Formula 1 cars and drivers when people need to be reminded that someone who wasn't driving a Renault or named Kobayashi actually put a passing move on someone on the racetrack.

Whats you're take on F1 using something like the Hanford device?

That would be fun to watch because the Hanford device did everything the restrictor plate in NASCAR was supposed to do without unnecessarily killing off innovations from the team.

[Shizuka]

Yes, he can. But sometimes he drops it.

[Dom]

Most of the time he couldn't overtake anybody because there was no one ahead.

Fair point. Still, I wonder if anyone else has won a World Championship having to make so few passing moves (the obvious candidate that springs to mind is Mansell in '92 of course).

[madmark1974]

To be fair, not many of the drivers from the top teams have overtaken many of the others. Several times during the title run-in I have mentioned that I didn't believe
Alonso deserved the title as he's not really overtaken ANYONE all season, except at Silverstone (well and Germany as well but that was a 'gimme'), but if I recall Vettel
overtook more slower runners than him in that race (both had to 'burn from the stern'). I would say Hamilton is the only one that stands out as having made overtakes
on track against other fast cars, and then, mainly at the start of the year (Rosberg at Australia jumps to mind as a starter) ...

[TomWazzleshaw]

...but if I recall Vettel
overtook more slower runners than him in that race (both had to 'burn from the stern')...

Vettel was only brought back into play at Silverstone because of the Safety Car after Sutil ran into the back of DLR. I mean seriously for most of the first half of the race he was lapping the best part of half a second a lap slower when he had clear air than Webber IIRC.

[Dom]

To be fair, not many of the drivers from the top teams have overtaken many of the others. Several times during the title run-in I have mentioned that I didn't believe
Alonso deserved the title as he's not really overtaken ANYONE all season, except at Silverstone (well and Germany as well but that was a 'gimme'), but if I recall Vettel
overtook more slower runners than him in that race (both had to 'burn from the stern'). I would say Hamilton is the only one that stands out as having made overtakes
on track against other fast cars, and then, mainly at the start of the year (Rosberg at Australia jumps to mind as a starter) ...

I terms of passes between the championship contenders I can think of more that went wrong that actually ended cleanly. Off the top of my head I can think of only one example of one championship contender passing another successfully (Button on Alonso in Canada. There must be others but I can't remember them just now) and three that ended with at least one driver out (Vettel on Webber in Turkey; Vettel on Button in Belgium and Hamilton on Webber in Singapore). If only Kobayashi were in a top car; then we'd see just how hard overtaking was.

[Ferrim]

Several times during the title run-in I have mentioned that I didn't believe
Alonso deserved the title as he's not really overtaken ANYONE all season, except at Silverstone

Hamilton at Interlagos?

[mario]

To be fair, not many of the drivers from the top teams have overtaken many of the others. Several times during the title run-in I have mentioned that I didn't believe
Alonso deserved the title as he's not really overtaken ANYONE all season, except at Silverstone (well and Germany as well but that was a 'gimme'), but if I recall Vettel
overtook more slower runners than him in that race (both had to 'burn from the stern'). I would say Hamilton is the only one that stands out as having made overtakes
on track against other fast cars, and then, mainly at the start of the year (Rosberg at Australia jumps to mind as a starter) ...

I terms of passes between the championship contenders I can think of more that went wrong that actually ended cleanly. Off the top of my head I can think of only one example of one championship contender passing another successfully (Button on Alonso in Canada. There must be others but I can't remember them just now) and three that ended with at least one driver out (Vettel on Webber in Turkey; Vettel on Button in Belgium and Hamilton on Webber in Singapore). If only Kobayashi were in a top car; then we'd see just how hard overtaking was.

You missed Hamilton passing Alonso in Canada, and I suppose that you could suggest Massa passing Button in Malaysia (after that race, Massa was - briefly - leading the Drivers Championship, so you could say that at the time Massa was in contention for the title).

[DonTirri]

To be fair, outside of few exceptions, when Vettel has been in a position that requires overtaking, he's either had problems or was behind Webber.

(Those exceptions mainly being Spa and Singapore)

[F1000X]

There is a serious problem with Formula 1 cars and drivers when people need to be reminded that someone who wasn't driving a Renault or named Kobayashi actually put a passing move on someone on the racetrack.

Whats you're take on F1 using something like the Hanford device?

That would be fun to watch because the Hanford device did everything the restrictor plate in NASCAR was supposed to do without unnecessarily killing off innovations from the team.

And you know the FIA will never use it because like stealing the 2 tire compound idea from Champ Car, the FIA HATES admitting it still has something to learn from American motorsport. GIVE F1 AN OVAL RACE.

[Cynon]

There is a serious problem with Formula 1 cars and drivers when people need to be reminded that someone who wasn't driving a Renault or named Kobayashi actually put a passing move on someone on the racetrack.

Whats you're take on F1 using something like the Hanford device?

That would be fun to watch because the Hanford device did everything the restrictor plate in NASCAR was supposed to do without unnecessarily killing off innovations from the team.

And you know the FIA will never use it because like stealing the 2 tire compound idea from Champ Car, the FIA HATES admitting it still has something to learn from American motorsport. GIVE F1 AN OVAL RACE.[/quote]

Or the testing ban, announced LESS THAN A WEEK after NASCAR did so...

All Williams fans should be fans of NASCAR -- because without NASCAR banning AT&T from sponsoring a car in NASCAR, Williams would have been in deeper sponsorship trouble than they currently are.

[madmark1974]

Still, it ~may~ all change for next season, what with the new regulations. Am I right in thinking these are the main changes (so far) :

No Double-Desk Diffusers
No F-Duct
KERS (?) (Or is that for 2012)
New Tyres
And possibly Bernie's silly Rear-Wing-Turbo-Slipstream-Device if they agree to it (I hope they don't, it makes things too 'artificial') ...

Hopefully someone with more technical knowledge / info can correct any errors or omissions from that list.

[patrick]

He certainly isn't the best overtaker in the business, certainly at lot of his moves this year have been a bit clumsy (i.e sutil at silverstone) or just not worked at all. He'll mature though. I think he has huge capability for being a very good all rounder like Alonso or Hamilton but right now he isn't quite there yet.
For the record, I think one of the best passes of the season was Petrov (gasp) on Rosberg at Les Combes (spa). Made me phwoar pretty loudly.

[fjackdaw]

On a side note, I remember all the Hamilton-haters on Eurosport proudly going on about the fact that Hamilton can only win from pole. It's not an easy task explaining the difference between "can only" and "so far has only" to people determined to hate. When finally he did win one from further back, that didn't count because it was in the rain. Etc. etc.

[Salamander]

For the record, I think one of the best passes of the season was Petrov (gasp) on Rosberg at Les Combes (spa). Made me phwoar pretty loudly.

I know this is a bit off-topic, but the Renault seemed to be pretty good at overtaking around the outside this year, didn't it? Petrov passing Rosberg there, Kubica passing Sutil in Singapore, then Kubica passing Sutil again and Kobayashi as well for good measure in Abu Dhabi.

[Peter]

I guess we haven't seen much of Vettel's overtaking this year, since he's almost always been out ahead. But from his "pass" on Button, and Liuzzi at Spa, and a few other occasions, I can say, he's not the person you'd like to see behind you. As for Webber, he's not the person you'd like to ever want to be overtaking, unless you're fine with a retirement.

[DonTirri]

I guess we haven't seen much of Vettel's overtaking this year, since he's almost always been out ahead. But from his "pass" on Button, and Liuzzi at Spa, and a few other occasions, I can say, he's not the person you'd like to see behind you. As for Webber, he's not the person you'd like to ever want to be overtaking, unless you're fine with a retirement.

On the other hand, even the Great Ayrton Senna was known as a "Let me pass or we both crash" kinda overtaker.

[Frentzen127]

I guess we haven't seen much of Vettel's overtaking this year, since he's almost always been out ahead. But from his "pass" on Button, and Liuzzi at Spa, and a few other occasions, I can say, he's not the person you'd like to see behind you. As for Webber, he's not the person you'd like to ever want to be overtaking, unless you're fine with a retirement.

On the other hand, even the Great Ayrton Senna was known as a "Let me pass or we both crash" kinda overtaker.

Your point being?

[Phoenix]

I guess we haven't seen much of Vettel's overtaking this year, since he's almost always been out ahead. But from his "pass" on Button, and Liuzzi at Spa, and a few other occasions, I can say, he's not the person you'd like to see behind you. As for Webber, he's not the person you'd like to ever want to be overtaking, unless you're fine with a retirement.

On the other hand, even the Great Ayrton Senna was known as a "Let me pass or we both crash" kinda overtaker.

No, it was more like let me pass or I'll drive you off the road, I'd say; something like that.

[Cynon]

I guess we haven't seen much of Vettel's overtaking this year, since he's almost always been out ahead. But from his "pass" on Button, and Liuzzi at Spa, and a few other occasions, I can say, he's not the person you'd like to see behind you. As for Webber, he's not the person you'd like to ever want to be overtaking, unless you're fine with a retirement.

On the other hand, even the Great Ayrton Senna was known as a "Let me pass or we both crash" kinda overtaker.

No, it was more like let me pass or I'll drive you off the road, I'd say; something like that.

Red text: Ayrton Senna
Blue text: Adrian Fernandez

[pablo_h]

As part of a spirited debate on who the best driver was in F1 this year (I argued Kubica narrowly ahead of Kobayashi) I heard someone make the point that Vettel couldn't possibly be judged the best driver of the season because of the mistakes he made while overtaking in Turkey and Spain. This got me thinking; did Vettel actually ever pass a good car on track (aside from at the first corner)? I know people brought it up during the season and I just assumed that was just selective memory, but racking my brains now I can't think of Vettel passing any of the other top cars (i.e. Webber, Hamilton, Button, Alonso, Massa, Rosberg, Schumacher and Kubica). Can any of you correct or confirm this?

Umm, he's in a RBR.
Not built to overtake, built to lead. it was designed for best performance in quali and leading. Doesn't have a mercedes or ferrari engine, has high downforce, lots of tricky bits that don't like dirty air, and their "f duct" obviously wasn't the best.
I'm no vettel fan, but I don't think anyone would be great at overtaking in that car. To the naysayers who would say Hamilton and Alonso could overtake in anything because they are better than Vettel, well they have no argument anymore after the last few rounds of the season where Hamilton and Alonso failed equally in overtaking, even though they had the better car built for overtaking than a RBR.
I expected this type of thread in the first part of the season from people who love overtaking, but surely there's not a leg to stand on now after hamilton's and alonso's failed attempts recently?

[mario]

As part of a spirited debate on who the best driver was in F1 this year (I argued Kubica narrowly ahead of Kobayashi) I heard someone make the point that Vettel couldn't possibly be judged the best driver of the season because of the mistakes he made while overtaking in Turkey and Spain. This got me thinking; did Vettel actually ever pass a good car on track (aside from at the first corner)? I know people brought it up during the season and I just assumed that was just selective memory, but racking my brains now I can't think of Vettel passing any of the other top cars (i.e. Webber, Hamilton, Button, Alonso, Massa, Rosberg, Schumacher and Kubica). Can any of you correct or confirm this?

Umm, he's in a RBR.
Not built to overtake, built to lead. it was designed for best performance in quali and leading. Doesn't have a mercedes or ferrari engine, has high downforce, lots of tricky bits that don't like dirty air, and their "f duct" obviously wasn't the best.
I'm no vettel fan, but I don't think anyone would be great at overtaking in that car. To the naysayers who would say Hamilton and Alonso could overtake in anything because they are better than Vettel, well they have no argument anymore after the last few rounds of the season where Hamilton and Alonso failed equally in overtaking, even though they had the better car built for overtaking than a RBR.
I expected this type of thread in the first part of the season from people who love overtaking, but surely there's not a leg to stand on now after hamilton's and alonso's failed attempts recently?

It is hard to say whether the Mclaren MP4/25 or Ferrari F10 really were any better in the dirty air of another car compared to the RB6 without CFD or windtunnel evidence.

For a start, F1 cars are designed around a clean airflow in the wind tunnel (or, in the case of Virgin Racing, the models stored on the CFD servers) - the R29 is rumoured to have suffered in its development because one of the tiles in the windtunnel was standing slightly proud (only by a couple of mm), causing unexpected turbulence. Clean airflow is a known and controllable condition, where you can accurately judge the effects of a small change in a particular aerodynamic part, whereas in a turbulent flow it would be a lot harder to assess whether a new part is genuinely better or not.

And the main area of complexity with the Red Bull was in their front wing - looking at the rest of the body, it is beautifully packaged but otherwise relatively plain, and there were few changes to the bodywork over the year. By the end of the season, the MP4/25's front wing was probably just as complicated, if not more so, and the R30 was notorious for the amount of development that Renault put into the front wing, especially around the endplates.
By your theory, that should have made the Mclaren a lot harder to control in dirty air - and it is worth noting that towards the end of the year, the qualifying performance of the MP4/25 had improved, enough for Hamilton to seriously threaten Vettel in Abu Dhabi, but their race pace was more variable.

Secondly, despite Red Bull's insistance on the weakness of their engine, a neutral report at the end of the 2009 season suggested that the difference in power of the Renault and Mercedes engine was negligible (in the order of 10-15bhp). If anything, I would be quite dubious about believing Red Bull's claims, because they will naturally want to exaggerate their engine disadvantage to make it look even more incredible that they won.

As for the effectiveness of the F-duct, in theory Mclaren should have had the best F-duct because they started working on it first, but the fact that they copied parts off the Renault F-duct (by changing the element that they blew) suggests that they might not have always had an advantage. Besides, the Red Bull F-duct should in principle be less effective - they gained more downforce from their diffuser and upper body shape, and less from the wings, so they should have been running a slightly lower angle of attack, which would have also reduced the drag of the wing.

Thirdly, in what way exactly were the MP4/25 and F10 better at passing in? Although competitive in a straight line, the F10 and MP4/25 weren't always light years ahead of everybody. At the end of the season, when the advantage of the F-duct was mostly nullified, both Renault and Mercedes were quite quick, and at Abu Dhabi, Petrov had a top speed advantage over Alonso. The RB6, meanwhile, wasn't topping the speed traps, but the difference between the RB6 and its rivals did drop once Red Bull fine tuned their F-duct system. Braking distances are broadly similar amongst the established teams, since most drivers use the same brake disks and compounds. Without a significant difference in performance (like new tyres), passing another car with a relatively close performance is not easy regardless of the car.

In addition, Petrov himself said that defending against Alonso in Abu Dhabi was easy - the only place where Alonso could easily pass was Turn 8, but because Petrov could back Alonso up in the previous turn before the run onto the back straight, he knew he could easily hold him off. Once he was past that corner, the rest of the lap was too tight and twisty for Alonso to be able to deviate off line and make a move - so I do think that in your analysis, you have discounted the effects of circuit layout in the closing races. After all, Abu Dhabi has tended to be processional, and this year the race in Interlagos also saw very little passing past the opening few laps.

All of this is not to say that I am saying that Vettel cannot pass whilst Alonso and Hamilton can - on the whole, Vettel has rarely been in a position to need to pass anyway, and passing in F1 is not exactly commonplace across the field. However, to definitively state with such certainty that the F10 and MP4/25 were better suited to overtaking is, to my mind, debatable without other evidence.