Quality of the Current Grid

[shinji]

I may be reading too much in to this fact, but I just thought it was interesting. But for the four reject drivers on the grid (Nakajima, Sutil, Buemi and what's his name new Toro Rosso guy), every driver has scored at least a second place. Even people that are seemingly unlikely podium finishers, like Piquet, and also some test drivers are podium finishers (de la Rosa and Wurz). What with this and the interesting result at the German GP (when but for Hamilton and his difficulties every driver finished on the same lap), the standard of the current field is exceptionally high. There's no Ide-like figure in F1 at the moment, and depending on your point of view that's either a good or a bad thing.

[jackanderton]

The standard is very high at the moment. Even in the recent past, Bourdais-like characters would probably not be so near to the exit door, and Buemi would probably be getting even more hyped. I guess with the likes of Trulli, Heidfeld, Barrichello and Fisichella hanging onto their drives after last season, there just wasn't the amount of vacancies available, and those drivers pro's and cons are well known, and so a team should be better prepared to handle them. (Though Ross Brawn couldn't possibly have foreseen Rubens regressing to the point of prepubescency). New driver, a whole new man management process along with trying to squeeze out the results.

No Super Aguri, No Honda, No Spyker, much less potential for completely ludicrous decisions. Toro Rosso seem to be effing things up royally recently though.

If the new teams make it (and fingers cross that they will), this topic may be redundant very soon!

[Debaser]

With manufacturers in F1 there's little need for pay drivers anymore, and most manufacturers have young driver programmes to bring thru good young drivers who usually will have tested F1 cars before getting a full time drive. With lower costs and more independent teams the quality may decrease, while USF1 raises hopes for an American version of Ide.

[RejectSteve]

The current grid is certainly of an overall higher calibre than we've probably ever seen before, but there also seems to be a lack of drivers who can produce something special, something sublime every time in the car. That quality which made Michael Schumacher, Senna, and Gilles Villeneuve larger than life drivers is missing, I fear. Vettel is probably the closest in terms of current drivers and may reach that level in the future.

While the quality of the grid from front to back should be good for racing, the current technologies and technical regulations prevent good racing. I can enjoy a battle where the second car cannot overtake the first if he continues to take a look down the inside in an attempt to knock the leading driver off his concentration, but the current sporting regulations, coupled with overzealous stewards, have prevented drivers from taking the risk and unwilling to even show their nose in the mirror.

The quality is a negative in my opinion, not just because the rules prevent overtaking, but also because there is a lack of the 'minnows' living out their F1 dreams at the back with pay drivers and introducing new blood without too much pressure to deliver stellar results. At Minardi, Alonso didn't score a point but he learned the life of an F1 driver and kept his PS01 on track. Mallya's team, unlike Minardi, can threaten to score points even in the dry as we saw on Sunday. Without hopelessly off the pace teams, F1 Rejects has no new material and we lose teams to fruitlessly support.

[fjackdaw]

As of Germany, there are currently 12 race winners out of a field of 20. Have we ever had either that high an amount of race winners in the field before, or that high a percentage?

Button
Barrichello
Webber
Vettel
Raikkonen
Massa
Hamilton
Kovalainen
Fisichella
Trulli
Alonso
Kubica

[shinji]

As of Germany, there are currently 12 race winners out of a field of 20. Have we ever had either that high an amount of race winners in the field before, or that high a percentage?

Button
Barrichello
Webber
Vettel
Raikkonen
Massa
Hamilton
Kovalainen
Fisichella
Trulli
Alonso
Kubica

And then Glock, Piquet, Heidfeld and Rosberg have second places.

I do doubt if anything near that has ever been before (awful grammar but I'm tired).

[Captain Hammer]

But for the four reject drivers on the grid (Nakajima, Sutil, Buemi and what's his name new Toro Rosso guy), every driver has scored at least a second place.

I think that's a little unfair. Nakajima is the only one of the three who could reasonably be described as a Reject. Sutil and Force India have improved dramatically recently, and it's probably only a matter of time until he escapes Rejectdom. Buemi's career hasn't even begun yet, but so far he's out-qualified and out-raced his team mate, and Toro Rosso is getting a new diffuser for Hungary. A few more points finishes, and he's in the clear, too. As for Alguersuari, his Formual One career hasn't even started yet.

[TomWazzleshaw]

I think that's a little unfair. Nakajima is the only one of the three who could reasonably be described as a Reject.

That's being a little unfair to KazNaz there. Sure he's only in the seat because of the Toyota engines Frank is getting but if it wasn't for the pitcrew at Turkey points were definatly on the cards and he wasn't exactly what I would call reject material last season

[Stewart]

As of Germany, there are currently 12 race winners out of a field of 20. Have we ever had either that high an amount of race winners in the field before, or that high a percentage?

Button
Barrichello
Webber
Vettel
Raikkonen
Massa
Hamilton
Kovalainen
Fisichella
Trulli
Alonso
Kubica

And then Glock, Piquet, Heidfeld and Rosberg have second places.

I do doubt if anything near that has ever been before (awful grammar but I'm tired).

I was just thinking the same the other day. We did have 12 winners on the grid at the end of last year after Vettel's win at Monza. Coulthard retiring brought that down to 11, and we're now back up at 12 after Webber's win. With Kubica, Kovalainen and Vettel all scoring first wins last year, I think you'd have to go back a long way to find a grid with more winners than this year. Having said that, we've had 10 or 11 winners on the grid since the last half of 2006.

I think the quality of drivers at the moment is very high; probably higher than it has ever been before.

[FullMetalJack]

I think we had more than 12 race winners in the 1982 season, 11 drivers won races that season. We can only dream of that now. We also need backmarker teams like the great Minardi. A grid full of teams like Onyx, Rial, AGS, Osella, Eurobrun and Coloni with crap drivers would be a lot more exciting than teams like BMW, Toyota, Renault, Red Bull and Honda with too many good drivers. Teams like Ferrari, Williams and Mclaren would need to stay though.

[Captain Hammer]

I think that's a little unfair. Nakajima is the only one of the three who could reasonably be described as a Reject.

That's being a little unfair to KazNaz there. Sure he's only in the seat because of the Toyota engines Frank is getting but if it wasn't for the pitcrew at Turkey points were definatly on the cards and he wasn't exactly what I would call reject material last season

Maybe, but of the three drivers who qualify for Rejectdom on the current grid, Kazuki makes the strongest case for his inclusion.

[Bleu]

1982 had 11 winners. In the last race of the season Alboreto took his first victory. However, two of that season's were missing from the race: Tambay and Pironi. So at the start of the race there was eight drivers who had won that season, along with Laffite and Andretti.

The next season was started with 11 winners who run majority of the season. There were no new winners during the season. However, in Long Beach Alan Jones made brief comeback so there was 12.

I can find 12 also at the Australian GP in 1985. Mansell had taken his first victory two races ago but South African GP was boycotted by few teams, so Tambay and Laffite did not take part. Lauda and Laffite were gone before next new winner (Berger) and since then there was quiet time regarding new winners, so several others (Rosberg, Jones, Tambay) were gone.

[Jack O Malley]

I think we had more than 12 race winners in the 1982 season, 11 drivers won races that season. We can only dream of that now.

17 race winners competed in 1982 season: Rosberg, Pironi, Watson, Prost, Lauda, Arnoux, Tambay, Alboreto, de Angelis, Patrese, Piquet, Mansell, Villeneuve, Reutemann, Laffite, Andretti, Mass;

Even if:

Mansell was not a winner at that time, since he won his first race in 1985, and all that 17(16) drivers never competed all in the same race. The largest number of winners on the grid in that season was reached in the first three race, with 14 race winners.
But in those race there were 26 starters, so the 2009 winners density is higher in percentage!

[Osiris13]

What I think we have is an awful lot of average - it's like saying because someone's at the top of the 2nd division they're world class. Everyone's talking about the improved cars when a race is won in one. Button and Webber suddenly elevated to championship winning material. I don't think so. Put a Senna, Prost or Schuey amongst them and they'd get blown away.

[dr-baker]

Out of the 10 current F1 teams, 8 have won in their current guise! McLaren, Ferrari, Williams, Red Bull, Toro Rosso, Brawn, Renault and BMW Sauber. Toyota have scored podiums and Sutil in the Force India was running second in the most recent GP in Germany. And Force India won a grand prix in a former guise this decade as Jordan. Has there ever been such a percentage of winning teams?

[Ben Gilbert]

Out of the 10 current F1 teams, 8 have won in their current guise! McLaren, Ferrari, Williams, Red Bull, Toro Rosso, Brawn, Renault and BMW Sauber. Toyota have scored podiums and Sutil in the Force India was running second in the most recent GP in Germany. And Force India won a grand prix in a former guise this decade as Jordan. Has there ever been such a percentage of winning teams?

Recently, if we count teams who later won, at Indy 2005. Three team raced, Ferrari and Jordan were both winners beforehand, and Minardi became Torro Rosso, who won a race three years later.

In the past, between the French and Italian GPs in 1967, all the teams (or at least, all the chassis manufacturers) had won a race, as Eagle won in Belgium, and Matra joined after the Italian GP.

[Waris]

I agree with most of the points made in this thread. But from a reject point of view, the quality of the grid is of course not a good thing.

[jackanderton]

It's worth suggesting that watching decent drivers at reject teams is interesting because they will inevitably get the one or two races where they push the car beyond the speed everyone thought it had.

[jackanderton]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Formula_One_season

Can't recall that many who were race winners at the time among that shower! 6 or 7? Out of...christ...35 drivers.

The 1995 season also only 'contained' two world champions, one of which was Nigel Mansell 'returning' to 'drive' for McLaren.

Speaking of forgettable drivers, I very nearly forgot about this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Christophe_Boullion

[shinji]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Formula_One_season

Can't recall that many who were race winners at the time among that shower! 6 or 7? Out of...christ...35 drivers.

The 1995 season also only 'contained' two world champions, one of which was Nigel Mansell 'returning' to 'drive' for McLaren.

Speaking of forgettable drivers, I very nearly forgot about this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Christophe_Boullion

4 at the start of the season (Schumacher, Hill, Mansell and Berger) but by the end Couthard, Alesi and Herbert had won.

[dr-baker]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Formula_One_season
The 1995 season also only 'contained' two world champions, one of which was Nigel Mansell 'returning' to 'drive' for McLaren.

Most of the 1994 season had no world champions in at all after the Imola weekend and when Mansell wasn't doing his taking-over-Coulthard's-seat role. Of course the championship was not decided until the final race anyway...

[Many Blue Flags]

I dunno if this is completely on topic, but I read once in Autosport that this race here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_Austrian_Grand_Prix

Had the greatest number of world champions past and present on the grid at once. I've not found another candidate, anyone else got one?

[CarlosFerreira]

Going a bit past the statistics, a more qualitative approach would suggest the field really is incredibly close. However, I would argue that never as before have the cars been so close, with pretty much standard engines, similar chassis and effectively control tyres. Remember how Red Bull had a pullrod rear suspension, opposed to the pushrod everyone has been using for 20 or so years now, and there was shock and awe? That's how standardized we are right now.

The development of computers also means the teams all have pretty much the same sort of hardware, so they can run the same sort of software; CAD is a well known quantity and CFD remains a bit of a black art that everyone's learning as they go along; reminds me of the muffler developments in 2-stroke 500cc engines, that no one entirely understood but everyone reached the same results by trial-and-error.

Besides, technical partnerships abound nowadays: the Red Bull/Toro Rosso is clear, but so is the McLaren/Force 1ndia.

My point is the cars are more important than the pilot, and as a result of the closeness of the cars, the pilots all look very close to each other. As CH mentioned, we miss a larger-than-life character, one that shines above everyone no matter how crappy the car; I believe, however, that Vettel is not that man.

[RejectSteve]

It's worth suggesting that watching decent drivers at reject teams is interesting because they will inevitably get the one or two races where they push the car beyond the speed everyone thought it had.

You mean how Hamilton has been punching above McLaren's weight this season?

Nevermind, he hasn't been.

[BB01]

What I think we have is an awful lot of average - it's like saying because someone's at the top of the 2nd division they're world class. Everyone's talking about the improved cars when a race is won in one. Button and Webber suddenly elevated to championship winning material. I don't think so. Put a Senna, Prost or Schuey amongst them and they'd get blown away.

You could also argue that the current cars don't allow an exceptional driver to have much of an advantage, and to show their stuff.

[Captain Hammer]

What I think we have is an awful lot of average - it's like saying because someone's at the top of the 2nd division they're world class. Everyone's talking about the improved cars when a race is won in one. Button and Webber suddenly elevated to championship winning material. I don't think so. Put a Senna, Prost or Schuey amongst them and they'd get blown away.

The driver makes the car just as much as the car makes the driver.

[Waris]

It's worth suggesting that watching decent drivers at reject teams is interesting because they will inevitably get the one or two races where they push the car beyond the speed everyone thought it had.

I agree.