Renault to become Group Lotus-Renault

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 10 Dec 2010, 15:39

mario wrote:
Myrvold wrote:I still wish Petrov can carry some Lada sponsorship, just think of the situation... a Lada, Renault and Lotus marked car!

I thought that the deal with Lada was through Renault, not Petrov - at the time, Renault had become a major shareholder in Lada, and were hoping to crack the Russian car market, whilst improving the image of Lada.

That might be true, I just made the connection "Lada - Russian driver" in my head;)

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 10 Dec 2010, 16:16

dr-baker wrote:
eagleash wrote:I believe Group/Proton have lost a previous legal case to the right to the Team Lotus name. Fernandes saw the opportunity to bring back a classic name when he took over the Litespeed entry & good luck to him it was a good PR/business decision. Group don't seem to have an issue with Lotus Shoes or Software or any of the other Cos. named Lotus. They are acting with a degree of spite because Tony F. beat them to it. He got there first, used the Lotus name as he had a right to do at the time, as there was no other Lotus involved, & then set about "legitimising" his team.
Group may feel they have a right to use the name as they do indeed own a version of it but it has always been (since the 1950s) separate to the racing side. But they should not be able to as things stand. Bernie & the FIA need to step in soon before too much more harm is done to all concerned.
Bahar has stated that he wants Lotus Cars to rival Ferrari. Can only see that ending badly & Proton being in more difficulty than they are already.
Any sympathy for Group's position must surely be dissipated by their almost childish behaviour.

When I read this, it made me think of the Apple v. Apple case where the Beatles' Apple Corps sued Apple computers for infringing into their musical marketplace...

Indeed, which makes Group's behaviour toward Tony F's. team seem worse.
Apple vs Apple took decades to properly resolve.

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 10 Dec 2010, 17:32

dr-baker wrote:These two definately beat the Team Enstone livery! And is that what ex-Toleman/Benetton's nom de plume on this forum now - Team Enstone or some variant thereof?

People on the f1rejects forum have adressed fans of Renault for over a year as Genii Capital Partners fans, so the current name of the Enstone team must be Genii Capital Racing or something like that.

Jordan192 · Post by **Jordan192** » 10 Dec 2010, 18:09

Yannick wrote:
dr-baker wrote:These two definately beat the Team Enstone livery! And is that what ex-Toleman/Benetton's nom de plume on this forum now - Team Enstone or some variant thereof?

People on the f1rejects forum have adressed fans of Renault for over a year as Genii Capital Partners fans, so the current name of the Enstone team must be Genii Capital Racing or something like that.

Just call them "Renault". I don't call McLaren "Vodafone" and i don't call Ferrari "Marlboro" (though more accurate would be "Marlboro, but you're only supposed to sort of think it's Marlboro. I mean, it is Marlboro, but we didn't do anything to put that thought into your head, you did that yourself. So we're not telling you it's Marlboro, because that would be illegal, but if we were to say who it was (which we wouldn't), we'd say it was Marlboro. But we haven't said that.")
Sorry, got a bit sidetracked there.

JohnMLTX · Post by **JohnMLTX** » 10 Dec 2010, 18:43

Jordan192 wrote:
Yannick wrote:
dr-baker wrote:These two definately beat the Team Enstone livery! And is that what ex-Toleman/Benetton's nom de plume on this forum now - Team Enstone or some variant thereof?

People on the f1rejects forum have adressed fans of Renault for over a year as Genii Capital Partners fans, so the current name of the Enstone team must be Genii Capital Racing or something like that.

Just call them "Renault". I don't call McLaren "Vodafone" and i don't call Ferrari "Marlboro".

That's not a fair comparason though, as marlboro doesn't own the ferrari team, nor does vodafone own mclaren. it's just sponsorship. ferrari owns ferrari, and mclaren owns mclaren.

genii capital outright owns what was renault. I mean, we don't still call HRT 'Campos', or Mercedes 'Brawn' or 'Honda'.

right now, for instance, mclaren is split 89/11 mclaren/mercedes, and 'renault' is split 75/25 Genii/Group Lotus.

I say call them Lotus-Genii Renault or something similar.

Jordan192 · Post by **Jordan192** » 10 Dec 2010, 20:07

It's not about ownership, it's perfectly possible to be a sponsor with an equity stake in the team - less than 12 months ago, Mercedes owned 40% of McLaren, for instance.

It's not about refusing to recognise team name changes, either. The entry lists for 2010 or 2011 don't include teams (or constructors) called 'Campos', or 'Brawn', so I wouldn't use those names. They do, however, include one called 'Renault'.

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pr ... entry.aspx

If Group Lotus manage to get the name on the entry changed before their collapse into spectacular insolvency, I'll start calling them Lotus.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » 10 Dec 2010, 20:31

Deleted.

Post by **mario** » 10 Dec 2010, 21:19

JohnMLTX wrote:That's not a fair comparason though, as marlboro doesn't own the ferrari team, nor does vodafone own mclaren. it's just sponsorship. ferrari owns ferrari, and mclaren owns mclaren.

genii capital outright owns what was renault. I mean, we don't still call HRT 'Campos', or Mercedes 'Brawn' or 'Honda'.

right now, for instance, mclaren is split 89/11 mclaren/mercedes, and 'renault' is split 75/25 Genii/Group Lotus.

I say call them Lotus-Genii Renault or something similar.

Strictly speaking, Mercedes does not own "Mercedes GP" outright - they are the title sponsors, but they only hold 75.1% of the shares in the team, with the remainder split between about half a dozen individuals who worked/currently work for the team as senior managers. At least half of those shares, and probably more, though, are thought to reside with Ross Brawn, who lead the buyout of the Honda outfit.

Aerospeed · Post by **Aerospeed** » 10 Dec 2010, 21:35

Captain Hammer wrote:And a photoshop with black endplates:

Please submit your ideas to Renault. Or Lotus. Or Renault-Lotus. Or whatever the heck they're called now.

~JeremyMcClean

Jordan192 · Post by **Jordan192** » 10 Dec 2010, 21:41

mario wrote:Ross Brawn, who lead the buyout of the Honda outfit.

Yep, he sent guys to check all the factory's vending machines, succesfully locating enough unclaimed change to meet the £1 asking price. Also a Twix.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 10 Dec 2010, 22:50

JeremyMcClean wrote:Please submit your ideas to Renault. Or Lotus. Or Renault-Lotus. Or whatever the heck they're called now.

~JeremyMcClean

It's not my idea. I picked it up on another forum.

Aerospeed · Post by **Aerospeed** » 11 Dec 2010, 01:34

Captain Hammer wrote:
JeremyMcClean wrote:Please submit your ideas to Renault. Or Lotus. Or Renault-Lotus. Or whatever the heck they're called now.

~JeremyMcClean

It's not my idea. I picked it up on another forum.

I don't care, it's a thousand times better without the red! It still looks like a heap of garbage, but at least the person who did it improved it. Beforehand it looked like one of the most mish-mashed liveries of all time, now it looks like a mishmash of black and yellow.

Dom · Post by **Dom** » 11 Dec 2010, 09:50

mario wrote:
JohnMLTX wrote:That's not a fair comparason though, as marlboro doesn't own the ferrari team, nor does vodafone own mclaren. it's just sponsorship. ferrari owns ferrari, and mclaren owns mclaren.

genii capital outright owns what was renault. I mean, we don't still call HRT 'Campos', or Mercedes 'Brawn' or 'Honda'.

right now, for instance, mclaren is split 89/11 mclaren/mercedes, and 'renault' is split 75/25 Genii/Group Lotus.

I say call them Lotus-Genii Renault or something similar.

Strictly speaking, Mercedes does not own "Mercedes GP" outright - they are the title sponsors, but they only hold 75.1% of the shares in the team, with the remainder split between about half a dozen individuals who worked/currently work for the team as senior managers. At least half of those shares, and probably more, though, are thought to reside with Ross Brawn, who lead the buyout of the Honda outfit.

Mercedes do own a controlling share though, much like Genii Capital. I suppose we could call the two team "Nofolk Lotus" and "Oxfordshire Lotus", but I still think the current Renault team will end up being called Renault in 2011.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 11 Dec 2010, 17:04

Apparently, some of the confusion is going to be avoided by Tony Fernandes's Lotus team remaining in green and yellow, using F1 turning into a greener sport as a marketing oppertunity.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88663

F1000X · Post by **F1000X** » 11 Dec 2010, 19:32

dr-baker wrote:Apparently, some of the confusion is going to be avoided by Tony Fernandes's Lotus team remaining in green and yellow, using F1 turning into a greener sport as a marketing oppertunity.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88663

Douchbaggery wins again. :roll:

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 12 Dec 2010, 15:29

Here's a bit more close season gossip to get one's teeth into. (Capt. Hammer obviously).

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/12/ ... road-cars/

I wonder how the other Team Principals feel about the situation. I suspect there is a degree of sympathy for Fernandes particularly from the likes of Sir Frank W. who've struggled to become established in the sport in the past. Being a pretty hard nosed lot though, it won't stop them from doing whatever they feel is best for themselves should push come to shove....

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 12 Dec 2010, 21:19

Team Lotus Lion? It sounds awful...

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 12 Dec 2010, 22:51

At this point, I really want Bernie Ecclestone or someone to say that both the Tony Fernandes Lotus and the Enstone Lotus teams will not be allowed to compete unless they change their names.

Because both sides earn my contempt.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 12 Dec 2010, 23:04

Phoenix wrote:Team Lotus Lion? It sounds awful...

Cue Legard... "The engine roaring"........ :cry:

Cynon wrote:At this point, I really want Bernie Ecclestone or someone to say that both the Tony Fernandes Lotus and the Enstone Lotus teams will not be allowed to compete unless they change their names.

Because both sides earn my contempt.

Bernie (or someone) needs to step in soon. Renault perhaps ought to be told they are Renault (or whatever name change they can get accepted, other than anything Lotus). Tony F got there first.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 13 Dec 2010, 04:26

I saw an edit on the 2011 Wikipedia page today that suggests ony Fernandes might change his team name to "Team Lotus Lion". The reference was Joe Saward - who is the only person reporting this - but he claims that Fernandes' plan was to enter Formula 1 under the Lotus name, get exposure and/or success, and then acquire Group Lotus and turn it around the way he did Air Asia. But then Dany Bahar came along and got himself appointed as the head of Group Lotus and Fernandes' plans derailed. But rather than give up, he's supposedly planning on continuing with his original plan, but now he will start his own car maufacturer, possibly named Lion. He'll then tie it in with Team Lotus as Team Lotus Lion. I don't think Dany Bahar would be able to oppose this name change - assuming it's true - as he's not a team owner.

Of course, it all seems speculative to my ears, but the one thing Saward points out that I agree with is that the number of claims and counterclaims before the courts mean that the issue isn't going to be resolved for a while to come, which in turn means that we'll start the season with two Lotus entrants.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 13 Dec 2010, 13:54

Captain Hammer wrote:I saw an edit on the 2011 Wikipedia page today that suggests ony Fernandes might change his team name to "Team Lotus Lion". The reference was Joe Saward - who is the only person reporting this - but he claims that Fernandes' plan was to enter Formula 1 under the Lotus name, get exposure and/or success, and then acquire Group Lotus and turn it around the way he did Air Asia. But then Dany Bahar came along and got himself appointed as the head of Group Lotus and Fernandes' plans derailed. But rather than give up, he's supposedly planning on continuing with his original plan, but now he will start his own car maufacturer, possibly named Lion. He'll then tie it in with Team Lotus as Team Lotus Lion. I don't think Dany Bahar would be able to oppose this name change - assuming it's true - as he's not a team owner.

Of course, it all seems speculative to my ears, but the one thing Saward points out that I agree with is that the number of claims and counterclaims before the courts mean that the issue isn't going to be resolved for a while to come, which in turn means that we'll start the season with two Lotus entrants.

Yes Capt. that's the link I posted earlier, pointing out that it was just gossip, & that you would obviously decry it...

Still, you're coming around; you actually agree with Joe on something. We'll have to wait & see if any of it actually comes to pass of course.

Post by **mario** » 13 Dec 2010, 15:55

So, the exchange of words continues between Group Lotus and Team Lotus, with the former Prime Minister of Malaysia and advisor to Proton weighing in. Unsurprisingly, he has reiterated the claims of Proton that they are the only ones with the right to use the Lotus name - even though only Fernandes and Team Lotus will officially be producing a Lotus car for 2011 (the Genii-Group Lotus team will officially be producing a Renault car, as Group Lotus is only a sponsor). He then goes on to insist that Group Lotus had to buy into a successful team:

"There are some reasons why Proton is not happy with giving the name to Team Lotus as their performance is also not good," he told the Malaysian Star in a video interview during an appearance at the weekend. "People reflect the performance on Lotus itself, so we have to find a way to be more successful. And I think teaming up with Renault is very good because Renault has done very well - even becoming champions."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88676

For a start, why did Group Lotus "have" to enter the sport? On the whole, the reception of Team Lotus has been quite positive, and they have received generally favourable media coverage from several major organisations (the BBC, CNN and so forth). I wouldn't say that the activities of Team Lotus have harmed Group Lotus, and if anything they have helped awaken interest in the connection between Lotus and motorsport.

I have to say, reading those comments, it reminds me of the comment that Fernandes made on twitter: "Some say its better to buy your way to the top.I believe in organic growth to the top".
To somehow expect a new team, with a relatively modest budget, to take the sport by storm is wildly unrealistic - and Renault, despite performing much better this year, are not likely to suddenly turn themselves around from a midfield team to being as dominant as Red Bull were this year without either a big injection of cash or stumbling across a major loophole.

On another note, it has been revealed that Fairuz Fauzy has been released by Team Lotus - according to Fauzy's management, Team Lotus decided to end what originally was a five year deal between him and the team. However, interestingly, Fauzy claims to have been in talks with other F1 teams - although the fact that the deals would allow him to pursue a full time racing career elsewhere suggests that he is probably not getting a race seat, but a testing role elsewhere. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88671

I wonder if, not content with adopting the livery that Team Lotus wanted to use, the Renault-Group Lotus team are planning on adopting the test drivers from Team Lotus?

AndreaModa · Post by **AndreaModa** » 13 Dec 2010, 20:20

Haha well Group Lotus could do much better than recruit Fauzy, he certainly doesn't deserve even a test/reserve role in my opinion, there's plenty of better drivers out there crying out for a chance.

I'd suspect though that Genii would want drivers from their Gravity Motorsports (or whatever it is) development program to come up, as we saw with the appointment of Renault's test/reserve drivers last year. They still hold the majority stake don't they?

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 13 Dec 2010, 23:59

eagleash wrote:Still, you're coming around; you actually agree with Joe on something.

No, I still think he's a hack. Sure, he posted that the Lotus naming dispute won't be over for quite some time, but then everyone knew that already.

Nessafox · Post by **Nessafox** » 14 Dec 2010, 00:09

now that i think of it, there's also a toilet-paper and tissues manufacturere called lotus

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 14 Dec 2010, 00:29

And a type of flower.

Maybe Bahr should go and take them to court too...

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 14 Dec 2010, 13:50

Renault probably won't be allowed a name change because all team principals need to speak with one voice to allow that. Group Lotus are trying to pull a Spyker, but the team principal of Team Lotus most likely will not agree. I hope Genii Capital Racing won't replace Petrov with Fauzy.

Post by **mario** » 14 Dec 2010, 13:53

Peter wrote:And a type of flower.

Maybe Bahr should go and take them to court too...

And a local gym near where I live has a "Lotus Suite" for gymnastics, so I imagine that Bahar will be trying to plaster that in black and gold paint soon enough.

Speaking of which, we have now got a stunning bit of PR from Gerard Lopez. He claims that Group Lotus are not trying to reclaim the image of the original Team Lotus, as founded by Chapman:

"[Talk about] F1 came on the back of them no longer having a contract with 1Malaysia Racing, and they proposed for us to work for us together.
"For Group Lotus and Proton it made a lot of sense. The result of that as far as we are concerned [is that] I don't think we can lay claim and Group Lotus cannot lay claim to the kind of extension and continuity of Mr. Chapman's racing team.
"I think the claim made by Group Lotus is quite a simple one, which is: this is a Lotus branded-racing team that is attached to Group Lotus who manufacture road cars. And that is it.
"There is no claim that this has anything to do with the Lotus racing team of old, which is not the case for 1Malaysia Racing. And that is where the confusion arises, neither group, neither we nor them, can really lay claim to that."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/88689

Now, I'm sorry, but that just doesn't ring true when you look at the comments made by Bahar. When he issues a statement saying "We are Lotus and we are back", when you talk about painting your cars in "iconic black and gold colours that were last used when Lotus and Renault joined forces in the 1980s", with the intention of striking "...a powerful chord with the sport’s enthusiasts around the world", that sounds to me like you are trying to link your outfit to the historic Team Lotus outfit.
You do not go to that sort of effort, deliberately seeking to revive the memories of the past in such a way, if you are genuinely trying to create a new and distinct brand for yourself instead of linking it to the past team.

Phoenix · Post by **Phoenix** » 16 Dec 2010, 01:43

Aw, just let Tony Fernandes, who owns the original Team Lotus rights (well, that's something, isn't it?) go at it with nostalgia instead of the yuppies at Proton.

Waris · Post by **Waris** » 16 Dec 2010, 10:01

Anyone else think that if Tony renames the team Team Lotus Lion (which I hope he won't), he should do a sponsorship deal with Lion, you know, that brand of chocolate bars with peanuts (or whatever it was)? I haven't had one of those in a long time, btw...

dhruvkaicker90 · Post by **dhruvkaicker90** » 16 Dec 2010, 13:10

Lotus could build F1 engines in future

http://crash.net/f1/news/165555/1/bahar ... gines.html

patrick · Post by **patrick** » 16 Dec 2010, 13:38

dhruvkaicker90 wrote:Lotus could build F1 engines in future

http://crash.net/f1/news/165555/1/bahar ... gines.html

with what money, Mr Bahar?

ADx_Wales · Post by **ADx_Wales** » 16 Dec 2010, 13:39

It doesnt suprise me that Lotus "Say" they could build engines for F1 cars.

They "Say" they're building them for Indycars in 2012 when the "new"-car breaks cover.

patrick · Post by **patrick** » 16 Dec 2010, 13:50

F1 engine development is above $100M, correct? I can't find current figures but they recorded a $14m loss in 2009. And although this year may have been better for them - they've been very high profile - I just don't see where all this money can come from, especially when they have multiple other motorsport plans that don't come cheaply.

Post by **mario** » 16 Dec 2010, 14:17

patrick wrote:F1 engine development is above $100M, correct? I can't find current figures but they recorded a $14m loss in 2009. And although this year may have been better for them - they've been very high profile - I just don't see where all this money can come from, especially when they have multiple other motorsport plans that don't come cheaply.

Hold on - that article says that they made a loss of £14.6 million, which would be closer to $23.4 million when converted to dollars, which is even worse. Having taken a quick look on the Companies House website, I can confirm that Group Lotus have filed their account for the year up to the end of March 2010 (the last tax year) - the only catch is that you have to pay to view the accounts (it's only £1 or £2, I think).
Still, it would be interesting to see whether Group Lotus's financial position has improved since then (although, given how sluggish car sales have been recently, it is unlikely to have improved dramatically).

Even by the lowest cost estimates, that of Cosworth, development costs of the new engines will be in the order of £25 million, and at a time when Group Lotus are expanding both their road going and racing programs, adding a Formula 1 engine program would probably be stretching things too far. I wouldn't be surprised if some teams have already begun work on the new turbo engines, so Group Lotus would probably have to start spending now, at a time when the budget is likely to already be under strain, for an uncertain amount of money in 2013 - assuming that they are still co-operating with the Genii-Renault team, of course.

Talk and PR guff is cheap, but engineering expensive - the only way that I could realistically see thing happening would be if Group Lotus bought the rights to another engine, and re-badged it with their name. It would be similar to the engine deal that Sauber used to have with Ferrari, back in the V10 era, where the engine was renamed as Petronas, but with most of the parts of the engine and drive train built under licence from Ferrari.

Cynon · Post by **Cynon** » 16 Dec 2010, 20:47

ADx_Wales wrote:It doesnt suprise me that Lotus "Say" they could build engines for F1 cars.

They "Say" they're building them for Indycars in 2012 when the "new"-car breaks cover.

They also "say" they're going to build their own IndyCar bodywork and their own LMP1 car. They're expanding so much that self-destruction is inevitable.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 16 Dec 2010, 21:23

Cynon wrote:
ADx_Wales wrote:It doesnt suprise me that Lotus "Say" they could build engines for F1 cars.

They "Say" they're building them for Indycars in 2012 when the "new"-car breaks cover.

They also "say" they're going to build their own IndyCar bodywork and their own LMP1 car. They're expanding so much that self-destruction is inevitable.

Which means that Fernandes would be able to use the Team Lotus name unopposed?

thehemogoblin · Post by **thehemogoblin** » 16 Dec 2010, 21:52

dr-baker wrote:
Cynon wrote:
ADx_Wales wrote:It doesnt suprise me that Lotus "Say" they could build engines for F1 cars.

They "Say" they're building them for Indycars in 2012 when the "new"-car breaks cover.

They also "say" they're going to build their own IndyCar bodywork and their own LMP1 car. They're expanding so much that self-destruction is inevitable.

Which means that Fernandes would be able to use the Team Lotus name unopposed?

In the long term, yes.

Collieafc · Post by **Collieafc** » 16 Dec 2010, 22:42

Argh, this is all too confusing! Cant they just arm-wrestle over the name or something? Saves a lot of hassle

Glennerz · Post by **Glennerz** » 16 Dec 2010, 22:51

Collieafc wrote:Cant they just arm-wrestle over the name or something?

I would pay good money to see that. Imagine Bahar's dejection when he is crushed by big Tony!