BBC news quoting Robert Kubica 'seriously injured'

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 08 Feb 2011, 10:56

Guys, it's WAY too early to say that Renault have such a good car. At this point I think not even them know that. Sauber were leading the timesheets last year at this stage...

EDIT: mario, as usual, has explained it better than anyone of us could.

patrick · Post by **patrick** » 08 Feb 2011, 11:06

Inevitably, everyone's favorite silly season driver has been brought into the discussions:

MauriceHamilton Maurice Hamilton
Well-informed rally mates tell me Renault have been talking to Kimi's management team. They ought to talk to Ant Davidson.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 08 Feb 2011, 12:52

A few test sessions often running at less than racing pace mean very little in comparison to the pressure & competition of a 3 day GP weekend & cannot conceivably disqualify a driver from "rookiedom". Nor does pre-season testing give any real indication of likely race times. Never has done in my experience. Not interested till quali at the first race....

Everyone knows that Renault, logically, should go for a safe experienced driver (Heidfeld being the obvious choice). If Boullier were calling the shots that is what would happen but if Bahar & Co. have any input who knows what the decision would be. A lot is currently resting on Petrov's shoulders & he may need a helpful teammate/possible mentor to continue his learning curve.

ElizabethSterling · Post by **ElizabethSterling** » 08 Feb 2011, 13:07

Yeah, I'd like to help ground this - we don't know the Renault is any good yet, let's not get ahead of ourselves.

patrick · Post by **patrick** » 08 Feb 2011, 13:17

Yesterday, Robert was able to talk to his doctors and relatives. His medication makes him sleep quite a lot, but he is responding to all external stimulation. He has reacted well to the news about his condition and is ready to fight for his comeback.

On Thursday, Robert should undergo some more surgery in order to stabilise the fractures to his right shoulder and right foot. Three or four days later, another operation will allow his elbow fracture to be stabilised as well.

from renault gp site. keep going bob!

ElizabethSterling · Post by **ElizabethSterling** » 08 Feb 2011, 13:23

Sweet merciful mother of god... suddenly I'm just glad he's alive.

Ross Prawn · Post by **Ross Prawn** » 08 Feb 2011, 13:34

patrick wrote:Inevitably, everyone's favorite silly season driver has been brought into the discussions:

MauriceHamilton Maurice Hamilton
Well-informed rally mates tell me Renault have been talking to Kimi's management team. They ought to talk to Ant Davidson.

Can't believe this. Kimi will be too expensive and probably not fit enough for F1. Also he would not be interested in a stand-in role.

patrick · Post by **patrick** » 08 Feb 2011, 13:51

Ross Prawn wrote:
patrick wrote:Inevitably, everyone's favorite silly season driver has been brought into the discussions:

MauriceHamilton Maurice Hamilton
Well-informed rally mates tell me Renault have been talking to Kimi's management team. They ought to talk to Ant Davidson.

Can't believe this. Kimi will be too expensive and probably not fit enough for F1. Also he would not be interested in a stand-in role.

Indeed, I don't doubt his fitness but it would take a lot of money to drag him away from his rally team at this stage. The car is already prepared for him. Although I don't think Renault will lie about talking to him this time around.

Edit: autosport reports that Liuzzi, Senna and Heidfeld are in the frame for the drive.
For his sake, I think Senna deserves a drive in a good car but I think Heidfeld would be a better bet for the team's WCC standing. Liuzzi is a gamble, and before anyone goes off about how "bad" he was last year I think he'd do a better job than Senna. But quick nick is going to fly again, it seems

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 08 Feb 2011, 16:18

Quick Nick is the way to go, they need a reliable driver, especially with a guy like Petrov in the other car.

But if it's down to money, how about Sakon Yamamoto.

Henrique · Post by **Henrique** » 08 Feb 2011, 16:49

Here's a computer simulation of the accident: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE8GUwybi5k

Pedestrian · Post by **Pedestrian** » 08 Feb 2011, 17:41

The problem for Renault is that at the moment there really isn't a "safe option". They mostly have to choose between an experienced but known to be mediocre driver (Heidfeld, De la Rosa, ...) or a rookie who-might-be-great-one-day, but maybe not (Senna, Hulkenberg,...). Giving the seat to one of the existing reserve drivers might not be such a bad ideea because I don't think any of the other options is good enough to justify the additional costs of contracting them.

Glennerz · Post by **Glennerz** » 08 Feb 2011, 18:00

Henrique wrote:Here's a computer simulation of the accident: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE8GUwybi5k

That is really shocking - I had no idea the guardrail penetrated through the whole car like that. I would say Kubica was lucky; his situation could easily have been a whole lot worse.

It appears also that Petrov's manager has withdrawn him from any pre-season motorsport events as a precaution.

Aerond · Post by **Aerond** » 08 Feb 2011, 18:12

The only incentive of watching Heidfeld would be to see how many extra races can he add to make his record of most races without a win absolutely impossible to beat.

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 08 Feb 2011, 18:15

Aerond wrote:The only incentive of watching Heidfeld would be to see how many extra races can he add to make his record of most races without a win absolutely impossible to beat.

He needs to surpass ADC first.

Mister Fungus · Post by **Mister Fungus** » 08 Feb 2011, 18:34

I really believe Heidfeld could win in quick machinery, IMO he is the best option for Renault because I don't think Raikonnen would suddenly come back to F1.

karsten · Post by **karsten** » 08 Feb 2011, 18:58

i completely forgot about Kimi! It would be a good solution as he's fast and experienced and would help developing the car... but i guess he would ask for too much moneys...

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 08 Feb 2011, 19:06

karsten wrote:i completely forgot about Kimi! It would be a good solution as he's fast and experienced and would help developing the car...

Yes, I am already imagining Kimi spending days after days in the garage talking relentlessly to his mechanics and engineers until he has everything perfect! :lol:

Paul Hayes · Post by **Paul Hayes** » 08 Feb 2011, 19:47

Aerond wrote:The only incentive of watching Heidfeld would be to see how many extra races can he add to make his record of most races without a win absolutely impossible to beat.

He's forty or so short of even having that record (currently held by de Cesaris), so I don't think it will be coming his way anytime soon!

Myrvold · Post by **Myrvold** » 08 Feb 2011, 21:23

It would not be wise from Kimi to return to F1. He has bought a Citroën, one of four, even thugh it should be five... He have his sponsors and team... I can't see Van Merksteijn being to happy if Kimi suddently ditches rally.

shinji · Post by **shinji** » 08 Feb 2011, 21:37

Kimi would probably moonlight in F1 and end up seriously damaging his right hand in a freak crash.

Poetic justice or something along those lines.

Hope to see Kubica back to his best, replacing whatever disappointment is plonked in the Renault, before too long. One of the few drivers who seems to genuinely love racing, and not the notability, fame and money that F1 brings (hence rallying in a race where the guardrail is of a standard that it slices through the car).

Post by **Nuppiz** » 08 Feb 2011, 22:04

I don't see Kimi ever returning to F1. His name is merely a way to generate extra pressure on other candidates, but him actually returning is as possible as Karthikeyan winning the WDC this year.

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 08 Feb 2011, 22:23

Nuppiz wrote:I don't see Kimi ever returning to F1. His name is merely a way to generate extra pressure on other candidates, but him actually returning is as possible as Karthikeyan winning the WDC this year.

Are you suggesting that the F111 is not a World Championship capable car?

Lord Fiddlebottom · Post by **Lord Fiddlebottom** » 08 Feb 2011, 22:48

Henrique wrote:Here's a computer simulation of the accident: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE8GUwybi5k

I hadn't noticed the guardrail had gone through the car from the onboard cam posted before, but a second viewing made my stomach turn. We could have easily lost Kubica there.

Stills from the onboard cam showing the guardrail through the car. Most Disturbing.

Jim Clark Forever · Post by **Jim Clark Forever** » 08 Feb 2011, 22:58

The one thing that nobody seems to have mentioned is where this leaves Ferrari in 2012 - don't know about others but I for one was pretty convinced that Kubica was being lined up to replace Massa for 2012. As I others have said, and I have said before on on this thread, I would be very pleasantly surprised if we will see Kubica racing this year. So even if in a year's time it appears that he has recovered, would Ferrari take the risk on him? Would they stick with Massa or would they try and get someone else in? If the latter would they try and prize another top driver away or would they go really left field for soemone like Rossi? If so what would the arrival of another top driver other than his mate Kubica do for our friend Mr Alonso's temper?

Obviously none of us can answer these questions, but it is the kind of idle speculation that makes our passion for the sport so interesting, and it will be fascinating to see how things pan out.

golic_2004 · Post by **golic_2004** » 08 Feb 2011, 23:19

Liuzzi and Davidson have both played down rumors of being in the car.

Heidfeld or Raikkonen? Likely

Senna or Grosjean? Maybe

Hulkenberg? Possibly

Klien or De La Rosa? Likely not.

HWNSBNBM? Priceless (yes)

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 09 Feb 2011, 00:01

Jim Clark Forever wrote:The one thing that nobody seems to have mentioned is where this leaves Ferrari in 2012 - don't know about others but I for one was pretty convinced that Kubica was being lined up to replace Massa for 2012. As I others have said, and I have said before on on this thread, I would be very pleasantly surprised if we will see Kubica racing this year. So even if in a year's time it appears that he has recovered, would Ferrari take the risk on him? Would they stick with Massa or would they try and get someone else in? If the latter would they try and prize another top driver away or would they go really left field for soemone like Rossi? If so what would the arrival of another top driver other than his mate Kubica do for our friend Mr Alonso's temper?

Obviously none of us can answer these questions, but it is the kind of idle speculation that makes our passion for the sport so interesting, and it will be fascinating to see how things pan out.

Time will tell with all these points but even for F1 (& F1Rejects), it's a bit early to be starting the 2012 silly season thread...

Henrique · Post by **Henrique** » 09 Feb 2011, 00:04

I'm betting on Grosjean. Someone at Renault said, not too long ago, that they would like to see Grosjean back in F1 one day. Who knows? Maybe he's truly ready now.

golic_2004 · Post by **golic_2004** » 09 Feb 2011, 00:06

Henrique wrote:I'm betting on Grosjean. Someone at Renault said, not too long ago, that they would like to see Grosjean back in F1 one day. Who knows? Maybe he's truly ready now.

I see Grosjean as a promising driver. He just was not ready when he got the call to join them back in '09 and the car sucked then. He's older and wiser and he wants to focus on GP2 for this year though.

Aerospeed · Post by **Aerospeed** » 09 Feb 2011, 02:50

Whoever replaces Kubica, he'll be the crappiest driver out of the list.

JohnMLTX · Post by **JohnMLTX** » 09 Feb 2011, 03:47

What about Jan Charouz, Ho Pin Tung, or even Fairuz Fauzy? No mention AT ALL of GLGR's OTHER three test drivers. I honestly would like to see the first Chinese F1 driver, or maybe another czech or malay. Anything to make F1 a bit more multicultural.

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 09 Feb 2011, 03:57

JohnMLTX wrote:What about Jan Charouz, Ho Pin Tung, or even Fairuz Fauzy? No mention AT ALL of GLGR's OTHER three test drivers. I honestly would like to see the first Chinese F1 driver, or maybe another czech or malay. Anything to make F1 a bit more multicultural.

They were mentioned earlier in the thread, (page 6), but no discussion has ensued. (Probably for good reason.)

The concensus of opinion seems to be that Heidfeld would do the best job for Renault, but he has apparently been without a drive & therefore available for much of this close season. They could possibly have had him in place as test/reserve driver, instead of Grosjean, Senna or Fauzy but they haven't. Too expensive? Don't rate him? Approached him but were turned down?

Glennerz · Post by **Glennerz** » 09 Feb 2011, 10:35

It would seem Lotus Renault's bunch of young reserve drivers are for testing/driver development more than actual race duties, and Heidfeld is the preferred option given his experience and the length of time Kubica is likely to be out. Also, if the car turns out to be as competitive as Bahar would hope, then it makes sense to put an established F1 driver like Heidfeld alongside Petrov, in order to get as much as they can out of this season in preperation for Robert's return. An experienced pair of hands like Nick could properly assess the effectiveness of the Renault's new exhaust system, movable rear wing etc., plus he has driven the new Pirelli tyres extensively in his testing role so can help along the car's development should Robert somehow return this year.

Ross Prawn · Post by **Ross Prawn** » 09 Feb 2011, 10:36

eagleash wrote:
JohnMLTX wrote:What about Jan Charouz, Ho Pin Tung, or even Fairuz Fauzy? No mention AT ALL of GLGR's OTHER three test drivers. I honestly would like to see the first Chinese F1 driver, or maybe another czech or malay. Anything to make F1 a bit more multicultural.

They were mentioned earlier in the thread, (page 6), but no discussion has ensued. (Probably for good reason.)

The concensus of opinion seems to be that Heidfeld would do the best job for Renault, but he has apparently been without a drive & therefore available for much of this close season. They could possibly have had him in place as test/reserve driver, instead of Grosjean, Senna or Fauzy but they haven't. Too expensive? Don't rate him? Approached him but were turned down?

Its a different circumstance. Normally you would go for a junior as a reserve driver, because its an investment in the future. You are training them up for eventual race status. And they are cheap. But now Renault are left without any experienced driver, which is what brings Nick into the picture.

DanielPT · Post by **DanielPT** » 09 Feb 2011, 10:43

golic_2004 wrote:
Henrique wrote:I'm betting on Grosjean. Someone at Renault said, not too long ago, that they would like to see Grosjean back in F1 one day. Who knows? Maybe he's truly ready now.

I see Grosjean as a promising driver. He just was not ready when he got the call to join them back in '09 and the car sucked then. He's older and wiser and he wants to focus on GP2 for this year though.

It seems that Boullier is saying its between Senna, Heidfeld and Liuzzi so that pretty much rules out Grosjean. It makes sense, given Rrrrrmmmmnnnn has committed himself to GP2. Now, why, in the pecking order, he comes after Senna beats me...

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 09 Feb 2011, 10:58

Ross Prawn wrote:
eagleash wrote:
JohnMLTX wrote:What about Jan Charouz, Ho Pin Tung, or even Fairuz Fauzy? No mention AT ALL of GLGR's OTHER three test drivers. I honestly would like to see the first Chinese F1 driver, or maybe another czech or malay. Anything to make F1 a bit more multicultural.

They were mentioned earlier in the thread, (page 6), but no discussion has ensued. (Probably for good reason.)

The concensus of opinion seems to be that Heidfeld would do the best job for Renault, but he has apparently been without a drive & therefore available for much of this close season. They could possibly have had him in place as test/reserve driver, instead of Grosjean, Senna or Fauzy but they haven't. Too expensive? Don't rate him? Approached him but were turned down?

Its a different circumstance. Normally you would go for a junior as a reserve driver, because its an investment in the future. You are training them up for eventual race status. And they are cheap. But now Renault are left without any experienced driver, which is what brings Nick into the picture.

Don't disagree, "training up" a junior driver would be the conventional way to go, point being, Renault now have seemingly declared an interest in Nick, indicating that they maybe lack confidence in their current reserve drivers. That begs the question what would have happened if Petrov or Kubica had to miss part of the season later in the campaign? Heidfeld spent part of last season as Merc reserve driver. Seems slightly poor management to have 3 (or more) reserve drivers signed who will not now be used (possibly). & yes agree that Heidfeld would be the best choice as I posted earlier, but still wonder why neither Renault (nor any other team) seem to have made any attempt to get someone of his experience on board in the close season to date.

Post by **mario** » 09 Feb 2011, 12:57

DanielPT wrote:
golic_2004 wrote:
Henrique wrote:I'm betting on Grosjean. Someone at Renault said, not too long ago, that they would like to see Grosjean back in F1 one day. Who knows? Maybe he's truly ready now.

I see Grosjean as a promising driver. He just was not ready when he got the call to join them back in '09 and the car sucked then. He's older and wiser and he wants to focus on GP2 for this year though.

It seems that Boullier is saying its between Senna, Heidfeld and Liuzzi so that pretty much rules out Grosjean. It makes sense, given Rrrrrmmmmnnnn has committed himself to GP2. Now, why, in the pecking order, he comes after Senna beats me...

I think it was because he had already committed to GP2 before he agreed to become a test driver, and it seems that the plan was for Grosjean to spend a year or two in GP2 (in the Group Lotus backed GP2 team, of course) to build up more experience before having another crack at Formula 1.

Bruno Senna has competed in more races than Grosjean (18 compared to 7 for Grosjean), and having driven last year his experience is more recent; on top of that, he does not have additional motorsport commitments (and bear in mind that GP2 races are normally support races for F1 in the European rounds of the season). Coupled to that, there is the greater potential commercial interest in him and his name (and Bruno probably has more sponsor backing); seeing the Senna name written on the side of a black and gold car would create a lot of media attention.

So, in many ways, there is probably a greater incentive for Bruno to be in the car ahead of Grosjean (both commercial and experience wise), even if Grosjean is a promising driver.

eagleash wrote:Don't disagree, "training up" a junior driver would be the conventional way to go, point being, Renault now have seemingly declared an interest in Nick, indicating that they maybe lack confidence in their current reserve drivers. That begs the question what would have happened if Petrov or Kubica had to miss part of the season later in the campaign? Heidfeld spent part of last season as Merc reserve driver. Seems slightly poor management to have 3 (or more) reserve drivers signed who will not now be used (possibly). & yes agree that Heidfeld would be the best choice as I posted earlier, but still wonder why neither Renault (nor any other team) seem to have made any attempt to get someone of his experience on board in the close season to date.

I suppose that part of the reason why they didn't go for an experienced driver earlier was because they simply didn't think this would happen. If Kubica had, for whatever reason, been unable to drive during the season itself, that would not have been so bad as the car would already be fairly well developed, and Petrov would probably have gained enough experience to tide the team over for the short term as a nominal team leader.

It looks like all of their reserve drivers were really meant to be short term drivers for a handful of races, not long term replacements for either driver. And, on top of that, they were probably looking to replace Petrov, not Kubica; when you look at their driver line up, it makes more sense if they were lining up one of those drivers for the second seat.

Jim Clark Forever · Post by **Jim Clark Forever** » 09 Feb 2011, 13:46

eagleash wrote:Time will tell with all these points but even for F1 (& F1Rejects), it's a bit early to be starting the 2012 silly season thread...

It is never too early!! Does this mean that I win the prize for being first!

Moving back closer to topic, as Renualt have alrready said that it is between Heidfeld, Liuzzi, and Senna, doesn't this make all the discussion of other possible drivers somewhat academic?

Basically Renualt have three strategies open to them:

Strategy 1 would mean Senna.

Under Strategy 2, given that an approach to Team Lotus would not be possible in the present climate, I would have thought that would only leave Glock as driver who would be clearly better than what they have already and who drives for a team where money might talk loudly enough. But this would still cost several millions (although maybe recoverable from any saving that might be made on Kubica's retainer), which the team might be loath to stump up.

It is under Strategy 3 that we have our fun. I would have thought that Heidfeld must be the strong favourite.

I have be very dissapointed that nobody has suggested JPM as one of the candiates - we could have had hours of fun speculating on whether this meant that the Theodore TY01 also had to dragged out of retirement as the only car big enough to hold him!

fjackdaw · Post by **fjackdaw** » 09 Feb 2011, 13:54

Jim Clark Forever wrote:
eagleash wrote:Time will tell with all these points but even for F1 (& F1Rejects), it's a bit early to be starting the 2012 silly season thread...

It is never too early!! Does this mean that I win the prize for being first!

Moving back closer to topic, as Renualt have alrready said that it is between Heidfeld, Liuzzi, and Senna, doesn't this make all the discussion of other possible drivers somewhat academic?

Basically Renualt have three strategies open to them:

1. soldier on with what they have
2. use another but unemployed (in F1) driver
3. try to acquire a driver from another F1 driver

Strategy 1 would mean Senna.

Under Strategy 2, given that an approach to Team Lotus would not be possible in the present climate, I would have thought that would only leave Glock as driver who would be clearly better than what they have already and who drives for a team where money might talk loudly enough. But this would still cost several millions (although maybe recoverable from any saving that might be made on Kubica's retainer), which the team might be loath to stump up.

It is under Strategy 3 that we have our fun. I would have thought that Heidfeld must be the strong favourite.

I have be very dissapointed that nobody has suggested JPM as one of the candiates - we could have had hours of fun speculating on whether this meant that the Theodore TY01 also had to dragged out of retirement as the only car big enough to hold him!

I think this needs a proof-read - it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Have you got categories 2 & 3 backwards? And I presume by "driver" in category 3 you mean "team".

And if discussing other drivers than those three is academic, why mention Glock or category 3 at all?

eagleash · Post by **eagleash** » 09 Feb 2011, 14:07

Jim Clark Forever wrote:
eagleash wrote:Time will tell with all these points but even for F1 (& F1Rejects), it's a bit early to be starting the 2012 silly season thread...

It is never too early!! Does this mean that I win the prize for being first!

Nope. More likely a flaming Papaya accompanied by something akin to that big noise off "QI".....

Oh & fjackdaw said the rest......(mostly).......

Ferrim · Post by **Ferrim** » 09 Feb 2011, 15:30

The whole "Senna, Heidfeld and Liuzzi" thing is just a result of someone doing naff journalism and then everyone else translating from what he was reporting.

http://webtv.ivg.it/2011/02/08/renault- ... -in-pista/

Boullier was asked about possible replacements and the journalist was the one who introduced the names of Senna, Heidfeld and Liuzzi. Boullier said that they were talking with them, but with other drivers as well. Watch from minute 1:04 onwards (if you understand Italian or can somehow hear Boullier's words over the Italian translator).

Autosport and every other media have got it factually wrong.