Rantbox

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Phoenix
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Re: Rantbox

Post by Phoenix »

eagleash wrote:There was a part of the Hammond meets Moss documentary, where it was discussed (with reference to Prof. Sid Watkins) that it was not so much reflexes as the way & speed in which a driver's brain processed the huge amount of information that he is presented with at any point in a race. Sir Stirling said that, following his accident, his brain no longer processed the info. as fast & he was having to think (however quickly) about race decisions, rather than it being automatic & instinctive. Although times he set when returning were not far off his best, he decided to retire, for that reason. (Perhaps regretting it later having, possibly, returned too early).


Yeah, in February's F1 Racing issue there was an interview to Moss in which he said after his crash at Goodwood in 1962 he spent some three years with severe concentration difficulties.
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Re: Rantbox

Post by eagleash »

Phoenix wrote:
eagleash wrote:There was a part of the Hammond meets Moss documentary, where it was discussed (with reference to Prof. Sid Watkins) that it was not so much reflexes as the way & speed in which a driver's brain processed the huge amount of information that he is presented with at any point in a race. Sir Stirling said that, following his accident, his brain no longer processed the info. as fast & he was having to think (however quickly) about race decisions, rather than it being automatic & instinctive. Although times he set when returning were not far off his best, he decided to retire, for that reason. (Perhaps regretting it later having, possibly, returned too early).


Yeah, in February's F1 Racing issue there was an interview to Moss in which he said after his crash at Goodwood in 1962 he spent some three years with severe concentration difficulties.


If you haven't seen the Hammond/Moss interview you should. You'd like it I think & it is now available on DVD....
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Re: Rantbox

Post by mario »

Klon wrote:What is it with reflexes anyhow? I mean a study has showed that Schumacher (at the height of his success) did not have much better reflexes than any normal person. Is it really important to have very good reflexes? Where's mario when you need him? :mrgreen:

Well, here I am, although it looks like others have already gone some of the way in answering the question. And eagleash, I recall watching that documentary and agree that it is very well made, and informative - it's a great insight into the mind of one of the great drivers of his era (and of all time).

My understanding, though, is that there is an additional element alongside the ability to concentrate for such an extended period of time, and being able to drive using the reflex system, which is considerably quicker than relying on the conscious brain to make a decision. The final element is using that information to subconsciously anticipate how the car will behave, and to compensate for that behaviour.
The classic example given is Schumacher during his famous victory in the Spanish GP in 1996, where he put in a crushingly dominant performance. There, it was noted from the telemetry that he was making multiple small corrections per second at a rate which was faster than the rate at which the human nervous system can respond to, and take action against, any stimuli. What it went to prove was that he was sensing, based on his feedback from the car, that the car was, say, about to start sliding to the right, and counteracting that, fractionally before the car started sliding in that direction.

However, it has to be pointed out that this isn't always possible. I recall an interview with Anthony Davidson where he recalled that one of the problems with a particular Formula 1 car he drove was the fact that the car's behaviour was unpredictable at the limit of performance, such that he couldn't anticipate how it would behave (it was, IIRC, in an interview at the Monaco GP). Because of that, he was having to wait for the car to start sliding or moving around before responding to that movement; action which severely limited the ultimate performance that both he and the car could deliver, as he couldn't otherwise drive the car as he normally would have. So, in a situation where the car is not behaving ideally, and you have to consciously think about the behaviour of the car, the performance of your reflex system will have an impact.

There also happens to be, for the elder driver, the issue of ultimately getting to a point where you do not want to take the same risks as you would have when younger. It is not necessarily that an elder driver is incapable of driving as fast as a younger driver - we've seen how many retired racing drivers are still more than capable of beating younger drivers in a race - but it is the willingness to, every corner of every lap, push the car as hard as it can go.
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Re: Rantbox

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Williams reveals its definitive livery... in the dark.
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Re: Rantbox

Post by eagleash »

That's right Mario.....automatic AND instinctive. :o

(See also; the Senna footage from the last series of Top Gear).........(dancing was the expression used for the way the car was moving about.....)
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Re: Rantbox

Post by Phoenix »

To sum up: young drivers have more willingness, freshness and the full extent of his abilities. Oldies have experience, reliability and knowledge on their hand.
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Re: Rantbox

Post by DanielPT »

Phoenix wrote:To sum up: young drivers have more willingness, freshness and the full extent of his abilities. Oldies have experience, reliability and knowledge on their hand.


Nicely put. That will always be the struggle everytime oldies meet kids in sport. Who wins will depend on the people involved and details.
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Re: Rantbox

Post by CarlosFerreira »

I want Nick Heidfeld to be World Champion with Williams - just so Jamie goes berserk live on the podcast.
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Re: Rantbox

Post by Vepe »

To make better races: Lower rear wing, lower nose, reduce the bathplug electronic stuff to bare minimum, gravel traps, not getting penalized for every little touch or going too fast under SC, Ecclestone out, use other tracks than Tilkedromes.

How not to make better races: Listening to mister Bernie Ecclestone
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mario
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Re: Rantbox

Post by mario »

Vepe wrote:To make better races: Lower rear wing, lower nose, reduce the bathplug electronic stuff to bare minimum, gravel traps, not getting penalized for every little touch or going too fast under SC, Ecclestone out, use other tracks than Tilkedromes.

How not to make better races: Listening to mister Bernie Ecclestone

Well, there is talk of modifying the regulations to reduce the height of the nose, so that wish might be coming true as soon as next year. The FIA has already introduced new nose cone heights this year, and it seems that they want to decrease the nose height for 2012 on safety grounds (because it makes it harder for the front of the car to ride over the tyres of another car in the way that, for example, Liuzzi's car rode over the top of Schumacher's car in Abu Dhabi).

As for the lower rear wings, well, that would seem to go against the advice of the OWG; lower rear wings lead to greater disturbance and wake formation behind the cars. Aesthetically, they may be more pleasing, but for the short term at least they are likely to stay.

The electronic gadgets have actually been on the wane for a few years now - traction control has gone, along with adjustable engine braking, two way telemetry and a number of other electronic devices. Besides, in many instances I suspect that the electronic devices would be, if possible, replaced with hydraulic or mechanical substitutes - the cars in the 1980's, for example, still has electronically adjustable engine maps, adjustable roll bars and other trick devices like hydraulically controlled active suspension (at least in a crude form on the Lotus turbo cars).

As for gravel traps, they haven't all gone away - as Hamilton nearly demonstrated to his cost in the Belgian GP. There are likely to still be gravel traps in the future, but the FIA is currently on a drive to have them replaced in certain key locations on certain tracks on safety ground. Unpopular they may be, but tracks like Paul Ricard and Yas Marina are trying out new surface coatings to punish the drivers for going off line. they might not have worked with the ultra durable Bridgestone tyres, but given that the Pirelli's definitely wear a lot quicker, going off the track may be more problematic in 2011.

Penalisation for collisions and going too fast under the safety car - I agree that the stewards were quick to hand out penalties last year, and for the past few years. However, in other years they were criticised for being too lax, so it isn't always easy to find the right balance. Meanwhile, the recent attempts to rein the drivers in behind the safety car was because in the past the drivers often ignored the warnings from race control about slowing down, and the marshalls were unhappy about it.

Ecclestone is a contentious topic - he has done exactly what he was asked to do, which was to monetize the sport massively, to entice the manufacturers into the sport and make Formula 1 the biggest motorsport event around the world. That he has done in a way that has won him few friends, and using techniques which are now beginning to bite back, and bite hard - but, on the other hand, he has been, in some ways, a necessary counterweight to the ambitions of the teams. What insights we've had into his character seem to show a much more complicated man than the public persona he puts on suggests - and few will deny that he's changed the face of the sport forever, for both good and bad.

As for Tilke, in many ways I sympathise with him as he does get a harsh press in some ways. After all, the design of the track is often dictated by other limitations - from topography to FOM's requirements for lines of sight and the FIA's recommendations on circuit design to other developments (see the tracks in Korea and Abu Dhabi, where the tracks were fitted around already planned commercial centres, or Valencia and Singapore, where the urban environment and local government effectively dictated where he could set up a track).

And it isn't as if there have been any real competitive outfits either that could offer to do the job any better - for example, the concept design for Singapore by the rival bidder, Apex Circuit Design Ltd., is almost the same to Tilke's design. Some of his designs do seem to be overly convoluted - but a number of them are fairly popular with the drivers as being a lot better to drive on than watch (Istanbul Park, for example).

The other issue is whether the lack of overtaking is just down to the circuit - after all, there are several traditional circuits on the calendar which have not produced great races recently, like Monza, say. It doesn't help that Tilke's designs have been mostly used in the current era of highly aero sensitive cars, along with the much higher amount of marbles and other detritus being thrown up by the tyres in recent years, making moving off the racing line increasingly unattractive. It's not to say that his tracks have no faults - they do - but to blame all of the ills of modern Formula 1 on his doorstep looks like a gross oversimplification of the situation to me.

Now, let's see if anybody actually makes it this far without falling asleep halfway...
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Re: Rantbox

Post by Klon »

mario wrote:Now, let's see if anybody actually makes it this far without falling asleep halfway...


I did, and I am going to add a rant on my own:

People should be forced by law to print out that post and hang it on a wall. That should get us rid of the usual silly demands. :mrgreen:
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Re: Rantbox

Post by Phoenix »

I don't know exactly how these new asphalt coatings work, but for me gravel traps are much better in this regard, and it's not like that they're unsafe.
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Re: Rantbox

Post by Jeroen Krautmeir »

I don't understand how the gravel traps could possibly be any more 'dangerous' than tarmac. I guess they think getting stuck in it is 'dangerous'? Or some sand getting into the cockpit or hitting the helmet is 'dangerous'?
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Re: Rantbox

Post by DanielPT »

Phoenix wrote:I don't know exactly how these new asphalt coatings work, but for me gravel traps are much better in this regard, and it's not like that they're unsafe.


The problem with gravel traps is that when a car goes off at high speed, it bounces off the gravel, barely reducing its speed while eliminating any kind of car control by the driver. It usually leads to huge shunts with barriers. The problem with tarmac is that if there is a driver error, this can be easily corrected with only a few seconds lost , making them forgiving. Also, if a driver becames unconscious, the tarmac doesn't do anything to slow down the car on its own.
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Re: Rantbox

Post by patrick »

The problem with gravel traps is that it can be quite easy for them to cause a car to roll if it digs in at speed. Anyone who has seen a racing car roll at high speed will know bits can fly off in all directions, and the last thing anyone wants is something flying off and injuring a marshall or spectator.
I don't know what they use specifically, but I think it is usually a bit bigger than sand - indeed, onboard shots of cars going into gravel often show quite large stones. Gravel traps near to the track can end up spreading onto the track during an incident which means longer cleanup times under the safety car. And you can ask Helmut Marko about stones on the track and you get the idea.

But on the other hand, while gravel may have its weaknesses I agree that I don't understand how a stretch of tarmac can be safer. If we look at Mark Webber's crash in Valencia, the thing that always shocked me was how violently fast the final impact with the tyre wall was. If there was a gravel trap there it is possible he would have slowed to a much safer extent (although he wasn't injured anyway)

I don't know anything about these new asphalt surfaces, were they in use at Yas Marina 2010?
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Re: Rantbox

Post by Phoenix »

DanielPT wrote:
Phoenix wrote:I don't know exactly how these new asphalt coatings work, but for me gravel traps are much better in this regard, and it's not like that they're unsafe.


The problem with gravel traps is that when a car goes off at high speed, it bounces off the gravel, barely reducing its speed while eliminating any kind of car control by the driver. It usually leads to huge shunts with barriers. The problem with tarmac is that if there is a driver error, this can be easily corrected with only a few seconds lost , making them forgiving. Also, if a driver becames unconscious, the tarmac doesn't do anything to slow down the car on its own.


Maybe they could try using less deeper gravel traps so that annoyance of cars digging into the gravel would be reduced?
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Re: Rantbox

Post by DanielPT »

Phoenix wrote:
DanielPT wrote:
Phoenix wrote:I don't know exactly how these new asphalt coatings work, but for me gravel traps are much better in this regard, and it's not like that they're unsafe.


The problem with gravel traps is that when a car goes off at high speed, it bounces off the gravel, barely reducing its speed while eliminating any kind of car control by the driver. It usually leads to huge shunts with barriers. The problem with tarmac is that if there is a driver error, this can be easily corrected with only a few seconds lost , making them forgiving. Also, if a driver becames unconscious, the tarmac doesn't do anything to slow down the car on its own.


Maybe they could try using less deeper gravel traps so that annoyance of cars digging into the gravel would be reduced?


That would probably eliminate the advantages of each type. Cars would lose control anyway, would still bounce off at high speeds but at slow would probably slide into barriers instead of being trapped. This is probably the reason for them not having done it yet.
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Re: Rantbox

Post by Phoenix »

DanielPT wrote:
Phoenix wrote:
Maybe they could try using less deeper gravel traps so that annoyance of cars digging into the gravel would be reduced?


That would probably eliminate the advantages of each type. Cars would lose control anyway, would still bounce off at high speeds but at slow would probably slide into barriers instead of being trapped. This is probably the reason for them not having done it yet.


Essentially, they would still punish mistakes. I don't see why they should be so unadvantageous.
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Re: Rantbox

Post by watka »

What about grass? Or does that do nothing?
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Re: Rantbox

Post by TomWazzleshaw »

watka wrote:What about grass? Or does that do nothing?


Grass does almost nothing in the dry and is incredibly slippery when wet.
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Re: Rantbox

Post by watka »

Wizzie wrote:
watka wrote:What about grass? Or does that do nothing?


Grass does almost nothing in the dry and is incredibly slippery when wet.


[Facepalm]
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Re: Rantbox

Post by AndreaModa »

You're living on a prayer after that one Watka ;)
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Re: Rantbox

Post by Alianora La Canta »

I suppose if drivers insist on being wild in the streets...
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Re: Rantbox

Post by dinizintheoven »

I propose we replace the gravel traps with foot-deep pools of treacle. There'll be no getting out of that!
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Re: Rantbox

Post by DanielPT »

That will certainly attract kids to races. Specially when after the race one can walk the circuit. Could be a great way of getting new fans!
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Re: Rantbox

Post by mario »

patrick wrote:The problem with gravel traps is that it can be quite easy for them to cause a car to roll if it digs in at speed. Anyone who has seen a racing car roll at high speed will know bits can fly off in all directions, and the last thing anyone wants is something flying off and injuring a marshall or spectator.
I don't know what they use specifically, but I think it is usually a bit bigger than sand - indeed, onboard shots of cars going into gravel often show quite large stones. Gravel traps near to the track can end up spreading onto the track during an incident which means longer cleanup times under the safety car. And you can ask Helmut Marko about stones on the track and you get the idea.

But on the other hand, while gravel may have its weaknesses I agree that I don't understand how a stretch of tarmac can be safer. If we look at Mark Webber's crash in Valencia, the thing that always shocked me was how violently fast the final impact with the tyre wall was. If there was a gravel trap there it is possible he would have slowed to a much safer extent (although he wasn't injured anyway)

I don't know anything about these new asphalt surfaces, were they in use at Yas Marina 2010?

The problems with cars flipping as they dig into the gravel is the main issue - I think that the trigger point was Fisichella's spectacular crash at the British GP when his suspension collapsed, and he went barrel rolling across a gravel trap when his suspension dug into the ground. The downside is that, as DanielPT points out, if the driver is no longer conscious (like Massa in the 2009 Hungarian GP), or not fully in control as you say, then there is not much that can be done to slow the cars down. But, it seems that the FIA prefers situations where the drivers can have control over the car most of the time when they go off track, instead of having limited control as they have with the gravel traps.

As for the coatings, basically they are variants of the high friction paints used at Paul Ricard. In Abu Dhabi, they use the less harsh coating of the two, which is the blue paint you see in the run off areas; at Paul Ricard, they have two types (the blue type, which is lightly abrasive, and red coatings further out, which are highly abrasive).
In the case of Abu Dhabi the coatings have been a limited deterrent because of Bridgestone's very durable tyres, and the fact that a thick layer of rubber built up over the top of the coatings to the point where they were less effective. However, Pirelli seem to have changed the tyre construction, and the amount of rubber going down is much lower compared to Bridgestone; coupled to the higher wear rate and high amount of debris being thrown off line, and suddenly it may become noticeably less attractive to risk running off the track.
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Re: Rantbox

Post by dr-baker »

mario wrote:The problems with cars flipping as they dig into the gravel is the main issue - I think that the trigger point was Fisichella's spectacular crash at the British GP when his suspension collapsed, and he went barrel rolling across a gravel trap when his suspension dug into the ground.

I thought that was Jarno Trulli in one of his last races for the team?
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Re: Rantbox

Post by Cynon »

If Bernie and co want to see more racing in F1 that doesn't happen at the Australian GP (by far the best track on the F1 calendar in the past 8 years), CART had this neat thing on the rear wings of cars on superspeedways in order to increase drag, slow the cars down, and allow following cars to actually pull out and pass. It was called the Hanford Device, and it would do F1 tons of good. None of this "movable rear wing" shite, plunk the Hanford Device on all the cars and then you'll get passing.

Passing won't be "too easy". It's just that those people who are good at passing will do it in unorthodox places. Kobayashi would have a field day with it.
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Re: Rantbox

Post by CarlosFerreira »

dinizintheoven wrote:I propose we replace the gravel traps with foot-deep pools of treacle. There'll be no getting out of that!


I support that motion as well!
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Re: Rantbox

Post by Cynon »

CarlosFerreira wrote:
dinizintheoven wrote:I propose we replace the gravel traps with foot-deep pools of treacle. There'll be no getting out of that!


I support that motion as well!


What about replacing them with walls?
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Re: Rantbox

Post by mario »

Cynon wrote:If Bernie and co want to see more racing in F1 that doesn't happen at the Australian GP (by far the best track on the F1 calendar in the past 8 years), CART had this neat thing on the rear wings of cars on superspeedways in order to increase drag, slow the cars down, and allow following cars to actually pull out and pass. It was called the Hanford Device, and it would do F1 tons of good. None of this "movable rear wing" shite, plunk the Hanford Device on all the cars and then you'll get passing.

Passing won't be "too easy". It's just that those people who are good at passing will do it in unorthodox places. Kobayashi would have a field day with it.

I thought that the Hanford Device was originally intended just to slow the cars down, and the increase in passing rate was an unexpected, if beneficial, side effect. The thing is, I'm not so sure that it would be beneficial for Formula 1 to adopt a Hanford device.
The Hanford Device essentially acts like an inverted Gurney flap, and reduces the total amount of downforce that the rear wing produces (since it disrupts the airflow beneath the rear wing and quite significantly increases the drag).

Now, the wake behind a Hanford equipped car is very turbulent due to the disruption to the airflow over the rear of the car. The CART cars from the 1990's produced most of their downforce from the floor, and traditionally the floor is less wake sensitive (i.e. being in the wake of another car would have a smaller effect on the downforce level of the car). In addition, a car competing at a super speedway is unlikely to be traction limited for a significant part of the lap, so the loss in downforce would be more than compensated for by the reduction in drag and increased slip stream effect behind a Hanford equipped car.

In Formula 1, though, the majority of the downforce produced by the cars comes from the upper body and wings, not the underfloor, so, as we know, the cars are quite wake sensitive. In addition, a Formula 1 car is more likely to be traction limited in at least some corners over the course of a single lap; often, it is not the lack of a slip stream that is the problem, but the inability to keep up with the driver once in their turbulent wake that causes the biggest problem.

If anything, a Hanford Device might actually make the problem worse; increasing the turbulent wake from the car in front would cause an even greater loss in downforce for the driver behind, which would probably more detrimental than the subsequent decrease in drag on the main straights.
Moreover, introducing a device to significantly increase the drag of the cars, which would push up fuel consumption, would go against the current drive the FIA is on to reduce fuel consumption.
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Re: Rantbox

Post by P_Friesacher »

Cynon wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
dinizintheoven wrote:I propose we replace the gravel traps with foot-deep pools of treacle. There'll be no getting out of that!


I support that motion as well!


What about replacing them with walls?


Or minefields?
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Re: Rantbox

Post by dinizintheoven »

P_Friesacher wrote:Or minefields?

...did you ever play Carmageddon as a youngster?
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Re: Rantbox

Post by P_Friesacher »

dinizintheoven wrote:...did you ever play Carmageddon as a youngster?


Sadly my PC was too slow when the game was still reasonably recent. I did play Have a N.I.C.E day, though.
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Re: Rantbox

Post by madmark1974 »

CarlosFerreira wrote:
dinizintheoven wrote:I propose we replace the gravel traps with foot-deep pools of treacle. There'll be no getting out of that!


I support that motion as well!


I'd imagine there may be a problem with insects as a result though. The old Buzzin' Hornets Jordans in particular would have some kind of magnetic attraction to the run-off
(like in reality they didn't have that anyway ...) :)

Though the thought of freely available treacle may be enough to tempt J.P. Montoya back over from Nascar ...
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DanielPT
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Re: Rantbox

Post by DanielPT »

P_Friesacher wrote:
dinizintheoven wrote:...did you ever play Carmageddon as a youngster?


Sadly my PC was too slow when the game was still reasonably recent. I did play Have a N.I.C.E day, though.


I still remember ditching the original car for a hardened plane-car and just wrecking everyone else in my path. Then I got the dumptruck... (this was in Carmageddon 2)
Colin Kolles on F111, 2011 HRT challenger: The car doesn't look too bad; it looks like a modern F1 car.
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dinizintheoven
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Re: Rantbox

Post by dinizintheoven »

For the record, I never played Carmageddon 2, but on the original - after completing the final track (and that was a massive task), getting access to all the other cars was a huge bonus. Driving round the Splat Track or Figure Of Hate (same course, and on the Splat Pack, rather than the original game) in Stella Stunna's car, automatically zapping all the spectators with the permanently-equipped Pedestrian Electro-Bathplug Ray... hours of fun for all the family. Except those families who went to the Splat Track that day, obviously...

F1 could be livened up with cans of bonuses and anti-bonuses; the pedestrian ray, Turbo Nutter Bathplug Nitrous, jelly suspension, solid granite car (very useful for a fragile old Lotus), gravity from Jupiter... Bernie, send a cheque!
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Re: Rantbox

Post by Cynon »

madmark1974 wrote:Though the thought of freely available treacle may be enough to tempt J.P. Montoya back over from Nascar ...


Or tempt Kyle Busch into F1 so he could run every corner uber wide and force people into said traps. :roll:
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...or check out my random retro IndyCar clips.

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Re: Rantbox

Post by F1000X »

Cynon wrote:
madmark1974 wrote:Though the thought of freely available treacle may be enough to tempt J.P. Montoya back over from Nascar ...


Or tempt Kyle Busch into F1 so he could run every corner uber wide and force people into said traps. :roll:


Heidfeld out, Rowdy Busch in. He can do what Robin Miller always says a driver should do, wear a black (JPS) helmet and give spectators the finger at every opportunity. He has some practice with the second one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWIw-hkrtSg
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Re: Rantbox

Post by Rocks with Salt »

This has been bugging me for a while, particularly with Trevor Bayne's wreck at Phoenix last week, so I might as well put it into writing:

The [Insert Appropriate Name Here] Principle

Any driver who performs unexpectedly well in a race, given their normal circumstances, will fall victim to an accident or failure during the course of the next race. An extension of Murphy's Law.

Thoughts?
...in bed.

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Martin Brundle: Well, that's a fairly short debate, Murray.
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