And what is Williams doing?

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Re: And what is Williams doing?

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Myrvold wrote:
DanielPT wrote:I believe that more than a new engine or a large injection of cash, Williams needs to revamp its design team. And perhaps the engineering one too. Certainly Williams has more cash than Sauber, Virgin and HRT and there is no reason whatsoever for them to be way behind Sauber and sharing the last places with the new teams. It is a shame Williams have fallen so far behind. Renault also worked on a budget and fared way better than Williams. For me it is a question of organization.


That isn't enough to make the stockprice rise fast. A deal with a big company brings more optimism.
And VW was an example ;)


I agree that for the stock-price it is not enough. But they are a racing team above all and while changing personal may only tickle the stock-price, it is much needed. And if results do improve the rise in prices is to be expected as an indirect result. What makes me wonder is that the feedback of the team during the winter was very positive and the team had some pace in Australia...
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

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mario wrote:And you're also right about the main problem that Williams have with the flywheel system, which is packaging. In many ways, the flywheel system is much better - for a start, the same unit could be used for many more races than the battery packs (some teams, like McLaren, have to change the packs after every race - and at about $100,000 per pack, that's not exactly negligible). It's lighter, too, than the battery system, can absorb and release energy more rapidly and probably has lower cooling requirements - all, however, at the price of having a large volume (and a secondary issue of gyroscopic effects).

It's been a long time since I did any experiments with gyroscopes (coming up for 14 years), so can you explain: which way is the flywheel rotating? I'd have thought it would make most sense to have it spinning on the same axis as the wheels, but is it?

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Re: And what is Williams doing?

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Re: And what is Williams doing?

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Now that they have Coughlan and *Cough*McLaren data*Cough* they can really hope to improve! :twisted:
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

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Well, maybe it's just because I'm not particularly a Williams fan, but it just feels like they have found a good-to-middling engineer to replace a good-to-middling engineer who will fall on his own sword at the end of the year, a change which will do nothing to change Williams' ongoing plight as a good-to-middling team.

No doubt Coughlan can bring everything he learnt whilst working for Stefan GP to good use! :lol:

EDIT: just reading the press statements more carefully, it almost sounds as though the team has given up on this season after 3 of 19 races!
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

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I worked with Mike Coughlan a bit at Arrows and at the time I thought he was an intelligent guy and quite capable. My opinion of him changed drastically (for the worse) after he was stupid enough to be caught in that espionage nonsense of 2007. I think to an extent Enoch is right, he is not a big name nor is he likely to have that much of an immediate effect on the team. I would rather have seen Williams promote from within and to hire more people than just hire someone who happened to be available.
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

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Faustus wrote:I worked with Mike Coughlan a bit at Arrows and at the time I thought he was an intelligent guy and quite capable. My opinion of him changed drastically (for the worse) after he was stupid enough to be caught in that espionage nonsense of 2007. I think to an extent Enoch is right, he is not a big name nor is he likely to have that much of an immediate effect on the team. I would rather have seen Williams promote from within and to hire more people than just hire someone who happened to be available.

I suppose that you could say that Coughlan is a big name in the paddock, but for all the wrong reasons after the Spygate affair (which still leaves a slightly bitter after taste several years later). Intelligent though he may be, I can only guess that a combination of resentment at being passed over for promotion (much like Stepney), along with concerns about his future career, made him act in such an irrational way - which makes the whole affair even more tragic in a way.

I do agree, though, that Coughlan is unlikely to transform the fortunes of Williams rapidly - competent at the technical side of the sport he may be, but Williams need a drastic reversal in fortunes (both metaphorically and financially), and I'm not sure that Coughlan can do that. On top of that, Williams are going to need a new chief aerodynamicist - Jon Tomlinson will be leaving at the end of the year. That could be a much more difficult proposition - experienced aerodynamicists aren't exactly plentiful, and hiring a big name can be quite expensive.

Now, Williams have really struggled in terms of aerodynamics in recent years, with some cars being unconservative (the FW30, which was a revamped FW29), or flops when they tried something new (early season FW26), and the FW33, whilst interestingly packaged at the back (especially the low line gearbox), has been neither consistent or reliable. There do seem to be hints that the car has something up its sleeve - Rubens probably threw away a chance of points in Australia (he could have qualified in the top 10, so he wouldn't have had to risk charging through the field and crashing, as happened when he collided with Rosberg). Still, it looks like they can't truly unlock that performance on a regular basis - how often have we heard that said about a Williams car?

That said, there are few big names within the sport that are willing to join a team that has been mired in the midfield for a long time - in fact, there are few big names really on the market. We've seen Bob Bell switch from Renault to Mercedes earlier this month, and Pat Fry move from McLaren to Ferrari, seemingly preferring to stay within the manufacturers block instead of moving into the midfield (and who can blame them). Only Symonds has moved into a lower ranked team, joining Virgin Racing - and that is because his reputation, like Coughlan, has been so damaged that the bigger outfits won't open their doors to him.
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

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Sorry to direct a post directly to you Mario, but I am exceeding curious as to whether the rear-end of the williams is a major innovation or not. It just looks so different than the rest of the cars. Is there potential there? Will everyone be copying that in the next year or two? What are your thoughts in general on the concept and on Williams' execution of it?
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

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Row Man Gross-Gene wrote:Sorry to direct a post directly to you Mario, but I am exceeding curious as to whether the rear-end of the williams is a major innovation or not. It just looks so different than the rest of the cars. Is there potential there? Will everyone be copying that in the next year or two? What are your thoughts in general on the concept and on Williams' execution of it?


Sorry to jump in, but I can't help myself.
It is not a major innovation in itself, it is the most extreme representation that we have seen so far of the evolutionary concept of reducing the size of the gearbox. There is definitely a lot of potential there, but at a cost.
Cutting that great big chunk out of the top of the gearbox is a very bold move, because it will have an effect on the torsional stiffness of the gearbox casing and it forces a rethink of the rear wing mount. It is likely that other teams will be looking at something similar, the same way that every team ended up manufacturing gearbox casings out of solid material or composites instead of castings. It represents a significant investment, because it will require a redesign of the gearbox internals and more importantly, of the driveshafts. The incredible angle of Williams' driveshafts (apparently about 14 degrees, instead of the usual 6 to 8) must have an effect on the torque transfer and delivery and on the driveshaft and CV joints.
The aerodynamic gains are pretty obvious as it allows for a lower engine cover and so maximises airflow to the lower rear wing element (the beam wing), which works directly with the diffuser. This interaction between the 2 is the most efficient means of generating downforce with a minimum of drag.
I'm sure none of it is impossible to overcome and it doesn't necessarily appear to be the gearbox that is affecting Williams' performance.
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

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Faustus wrote:
Row Man Gross-Gene wrote:Sorry to direct a post directly to you Mario, but I am exceeding curious as to whether the rear-end of the williams is a major innovation or not. It just looks so different than the rest of the cars. Is there potential there? Will everyone be copying that in the next year or two? What are your thoughts in general on the concept and on Williams' execution of it?


Sorry to jump in, but I can't help myself.
It is not a major innovation in itself, it is the most extreme representation that we have seen so far of the evolutionary concept of reducing the size of the gearbox. There is definitely a lot of potential there, but at a cost.
Cutting that great big chunk out of the top of the gearbox is a very bold move, because it will have an effect on the torsional stiffness of the gearbox casing and it forces a rethink of the rear wing mount. It is likely that other teams will be looking at something similar, the same way that every team ended up manufacturing gearbox casings out of solid material or composites instead of castings. It represents a significant investment, because it will require a redesign of the gearbox internals and more importantly, of the driveshafts. The incredible angle of Williams' driveshafts (apparently about 14 degrees, instead of the usual 6 to 8) must have an effect on the torque transfer and delivery and on the driveshaft and CV joints.
The aerodynamic gains are pretty obvious as it allows for a lower engine cover and so maximises airflow to the lower rear wing element (the beam wing), which works directly with the diffuser. This interaction between the 2 is the most efficient means of generating downforce with a minimum of drag.
I'm sure none of it is impossible to overcome and it doesn't necessarily appear to be the gearbox that is affecting Williams' performance.



Thanks for jumping in, I shouldn't have directed it only to mario, but I've been curious about this and wanted to press someone. I see you've worked in technical areas (in F1?) so it's good to get that perspective. As you say it was a bold move, do you think Williams' head start on this (a year's worth of data etc.) can pay dividends next year?
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

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mario wrote:That said, there are few big names within the sport that are willing to join a team that has been mired in the midfield for a long time - in fact, there are few big names really on the market. We've seen Bob Bell switch from Renault to Mercedes earlier this month, and Pat Fry move from McLaren to Ferrari, seemingly preferring to stay within the manufacturers block instead of moving into the midfield (and who can blame them). Only Symonds has moved into a lower ranked team, joining Virgin Racing - and that is because his reputation, like Coughlan, has been so damaged that the bigger outfits won't open their doors to him.


Exactly right, there aren't any obvious big names available on the market. Maybe it's time to look either elsewhere in other forms of motorsport or perhaps to some older very experienced people, like Adrian Reynard.
Symmonds is a brilliant engineer and a very interesting guy, but I think he is aware that he is unlikely to have the same sort of position within the sport again. (Him and Adrian Reynard were my course tutors during my Masters degree).
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91086

Adam Parr wrote:One significant change is that Patrick Head has made it clear that he will be retiring this year, so at some point that will happen - although that is nothing to do with restructuring. He is 65 and he had always signalled that he would move to his next set of interests.


It is now official, Head is going to retire. It is the end of an era at Williams...
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

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DanielPT wrote:
It is now official, Head is going to retire. It is the end of Williams...


Fix'd it for you.
Let's face it guys, Williams is not about Frank. Williams has been about Patrick Head for a good while now. and with the fortunes dwindling and the team falling to obscurity, Head retiring IS the end of the team.

That's my two cents and to be quite honest... Good Riddance.
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

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Row Man Gross-Gene wrote:
Faustus wrote:
Row Man Gross-Gene wrote:Sorry to direct a post directly to you Mario, but I am exceeding curious as to whether the rear-end of the williams is a major innovation or not. It just looks so different than the rest of the cars. Is there potential there? Will everyone be copying that in the next year or two? What are your thoughts in general on the concept and on Williams' execution of it?


Sorry to jump in, but I can't help myself.
It is not a major innovation in itself, it is the most extreme representation that we have seen so far of the evolutionary concept of reducing the size of the gearbox. There is definitely a lot of potential there, but at a cost.
Cutting that great big chunk out of the top of the gearbox is a very bold move, because it will have an effect on the torsional stiffness of the gearbox casing and it forces a rethink of the rear wing mount. It is likely that other teams will be looking at something similar, the same way that every team ended up manufacturing gearbox casings out of solid material or composites instead of castings. It represents a significant investment, because it will require a redesign of the gearbox internals and more importantly, of the driveshafts. The incredible angle of Williams' driveshafts (apparently about 14 degrees, instead of the usual 6 to 8) must have an effect on the torque transfer and delivery and on the driveshaft and CV joints.
The aerodynamic gains are pretty obvious as it allows for a lower engine cover and so maximises airflow to the lower rear wing element (the beam wing), which works directly with the diffuser. This interaction between the 2 is the most efficient means of generating downforce with a minimum of drag.
I'm sure none of it is impossible to overcome and it doesn't necessarily appear to be the gearbox that is affecting Williams' performance.



Thanks for jumping in, I shouldn't have directed it only to mario, but I've been curious about this and wanted to press someone. I see you've worked in technical areas (in F1?) so it's good to get that perspective. As you say it was a bold move, do you think Williams' head start on this (a year's worth of data etc.) can pay dividends next year?


It could pay dividends for next year, definitely. I think it will all depend on what Williams have chosen to concentrate their resources on improving for this year. The concept needs more development, but if Williams feel that the car's weakest area is aerodynamics, that's where the bulk of the resources will be concentrated on, to the detriment of other systems.

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I think this year has been fascinating so far from a technical point of view. The Williams gearbox, the McLaren everything, the Toro Rosso floor, the Renault exhausts... Even my fiancee is really getting into the technical aspects and asking questions about stuff and doing research online.
Last edited by Faustus on 03 May 2011, 20:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

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DonTirri wrote:
DanielPT wrote:
It is now official, Head is going to retire. It is the end of Williams...


Fix'd it for you.
Let's face it guys, Williams is not about Frank. Williams has been about Patrick Head for a good while now. and with the fortunes dwindling and the team falling to obscurity, Head retiring IS the end of the team.

That's my two cents and to be quite honest... Good Riddance.


Hopefully it will go the other way and be an interesting opportunity for the team. McLaren changed radically when Teddy Mayer sold the team in 1980 and were a better team under the management of Project 4. Maybe a reorganisation of the team personnel will work really well. Jonathan Williams is bound to take more of an active role in the management of the team sooner or later.
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

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Faustus wrote:I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I think this year has been fascinating so far from a technical point of view. The Williams gearbox, the McLaren everything, the Toro Rosso floor, the Renault exhausts... Even my fiancee is really getting into the technical aspects and asking questions about stuff and doing research online.


I agree, I previously didn't understand the techincal side of F1 very well, yet I am really getting fascinated by F1 techincal developments this year. I think the F duct really started my interest, as it was so simple yet so effective. Also I loved how in Monza Button had one set-up on his car & Hamilton had another & seeing how it would work out. Really fascinating stuff.

In regards to the Williams rear end, (brilliant read BTW Faustus, I found it very interesting indeed, Thank you), how much aerodynamic gains do you think is in that, taking into account all of the pros & cons, in terms of lap time? For instance do you think it is worth an extra 0.5 secs a lap, compared to a more conventionally rear end design?

Also from reading some of your previous posts, it seems you used to work with Arrows in 2002? Therefore I was just wondering whether you could kindly explain to us how much potential you felt was left unlocked in that car?

I heard there was little testing for the 2002 Arrows car before the team folded & other teams feared that car could have been much faster with some testing. Nevertheless the car did achieve pretty decent results considering.

I appreciate these are a very difficult questions to answer, so many thanks in advance.
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

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Faustus wrote:
mario wrote:That said, there are few big names within the sport that are willing to join a team that has been mired in the midfield for a long time - in fact, there are few big names really on the market. We've seen Bob Bell switch from Renault to Mercedes earlier this month, and Pat Fry move from McLaren to Ferrari, seemingly preferring to stay within the manufacturers block instead of moving into the midfield (and who can blame them). Only Symonds has moved into a lower ranked team, joining Virgin Racing - and that is because his reputation, like Coughlan, has been so damaged that the bigger outfits won't open their doors to him.


Exactly right, there aren't any obvious big names available on the market. Maybe it's time to look either elsewhere in other forms of motorsport or perhaps to some older very experienced people, like Adrian Reynard.
Symmonds is a brilliant engineer and a very interesting guy, but I think he is aware that he is unlikely to have the same sort of position within the sport again. (Him and Adrian Reynard were my course tutors during my Masters degree).

Hmm, I've totally forgotten about Adrian Reynard. Can't forget that this is the fellow who destroyed pretty much every field at first go (except, erm, F1). Would like to see him get another shot with a team.
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

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DanielPT wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91086

Adam Parr wrote:One significant change is that Patrick Head has made it clear that he will be retiring this year, so at some point that will happen - although that is nothing to do with restructuring. He is 65 and he had always signalled that he would move to his next set of interests.


It is now official, Head is going to retire. It is the end of an era at Williams...


Patrick Head might not be leaving after all.

Patrick Head wrote:What you are telling me is news to me. I wasn't aware that Adam had said that. He wasn't in a position to make that statement. My plans are not in the public domain and they will only be when I make my own statement later in the year."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/may/03/williams-mike-coughlan-spygate

Looks like there's some infighting going on in Williams.
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

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dangling wrote:Patrick Head might not be leaving after all.

Patrick Head wrote:What you are telling me is news to me. I wasn't aware that Adam had said that. He wasn't in a position to make that statement. My plans are not in the public domain and they will only be when I make my own statement later in the year."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/may/03/williams-mike-coughlan-spygate

Looks like there's some infighting going on in Williams.


That is just because Head wanted to be the one telling the world he was retiring. Which he might not do now just to prove Adam Parr wrong!
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

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Williams has turned me into a piece of uninspired sod.

I fear the end of Williams, because Midland turned me into uninspired sod, and they defected into Spyker before the end of the season!
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

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A song for all the Williams fans:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4aP2iKa16g
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

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fjackdaw wrote:A song for all the Williams fans:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4aP2iKa16g

Soooooo, when's Ferrari's time to pass then?
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

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Bwahahaha, fear the wrath of Toto Wolff!! He said there wouldn't be a major restructuring, but Sam Michael leaving is pretty major, I'd say. Thank goodness they are bringing in someone, in the person of Coughlan, who might actually be able to help them forward, otherwise they would just continue to dwindle.

As for the aerodynamic insight, my (layperson's) take on it is this: sometimes you have to take a gamble, and since Williams can't fall much lower, they were right in taking that gamble this time. Now let's just hope it pays off, because it would be so nice to see Williams at the front again...
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

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dr-baker wrote:
fjackdaw wrote:A song for all the Williams fans:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4aP2iKa16g

Soooooo, when's Ferrari's time to pass then?


Ferrari has enough money to never pass. And if they do run low on money, FIAT will jump in and kick them back up. If FIAT can't kick them up, they have any sponsor in the world at their disposal. Ferrari isn't going anywhere.
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

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One day, Ferrari will disappear. It may not be for another 100 years, or 200, but one day there will be no Ferrari in Formula 1, and no Formula 1.

Rubens Barrichello, though, will still be trundling around the track.
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

Post by GroupLotusRenault »

fjackdaw wrote:One day, Ferrari will disappear. It may not be for another 100 years, or 200, but one day there will be no Ferrari in Formula 1, and no Formula 1.

Rubens Barrichello, though, will still be trundling around the track.


He will still be blaming the team for making him not win...
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

Post by Jeroen Krautmeir »

Now this is just rubbish. I think it kind of shows how committed Frank is to the F1 outfit these days.
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

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Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:Now this is just rubbish. I think it kind of shows how committed Frank is to the F1 outfit these days.


He should do like Ron Dennis then. Create a Williams car company. They already have ties with Porsche and now Jaguar, so they have maybe enough costumers to create a branch.
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

Post by Faustus »

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:Now this is just rubbish. I think it kind of shows how committed Frank is to the F1 outfit these days.


I don't think it's so much a sign of lack of commitment, but a need for extra funding, since they lost so many high-profile sponsors in Formula 1 over the last few years.
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

Post by Jordan192 »

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:Now this is just rubbish. I think it kind of shows how committed Frank is to the F1 outfit these days.


Seems like a pretty shrewd move to me, the F1 outfit is... Maybe not circling the drain yet, but they're on the brink of tipping over the edge and going into a terminal decline. It's not going to take many more bad seasons before attracting sponsorship starts to become a serious issue and they pass the point of no return.
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

Post by Peter »

If i was shouting how big of a flop Maldonado is before today, I have an entire orchestra screaming it now. I think he's more trouble than he's worth. Last year Williams had one of the best lineups they had in years, an experienced guy with good pace and consistency and excellent developement skills, and a young, very quick guy who could bring some surprise results, which he did. Now we've got this guy who took 4 years to win a GP2 title, while the person he replaced took 1. And now he's the new Vitaly Petrov.
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

Post by Glennerz »

Peter wrote:If i was shouting how big of a flop Maldonado is before today, I have an entire orchestra screaming it now. I think he's more trouble than he's worth. Last year Williams had one of the best lineups they had in years, an experienced guy with good pace and consistency and excellent developement skills, and a young, very quick guy who could bring some surprise results, which he did. Now we've got this guy who took 4 years to win a GP2 title, while the person he replaced took 1. And now he's the new Vitaly Petrov.

What are you implying?
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

Post by Nessafox »

well, maldonado is a monaco specialist (despite actually being banned from driving a formula renault car in monaco), so probably he wins that race and crashes out of all the others

he's just warming up the seat for the great johnny cecotto jr.
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

Post by TomWazzleshaw »

This wrote:(despite actually being banned from driving a formula renault car in monaco)


Now how the hell did he do that? :lol:
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

Post by ibsey »

I think you have all got it wrong.

Maldonado is clearly doing his best to win the honour of becoming the 2011 nosecone destruction champion. Lets just hope Williams have enough carbon fibre to allow him to achieve this goal. :lol:

Either that or he is seeking to get his own profile on this site?
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

Post by Peter »

Glennerz wrote:
Peter wrote:If i was shouting how big of a flop Maldonado is before today, I have an entire orchestra screaming it now. I think he's more trouble than he's worth. Last year Williams had one of the best lineups they had in years, an experienced guy with good pace and consistency and excellent developement skills, and a young, very quick guy who could bring some surprise results, which he did. Now we've got this guy who took 4 years to win a GP2 title, while the person he replaced took 1. And now he's the new Vitaly Petrov.

What are you implying?


Remember Petrov for the first half of last year? Lacked pace and crashed often. Only that I don't see Pastor improving anytime soon.
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

Post by Nessafox »

Wizzie wrote:
This wrote:(despite actually being banned from driving a formula renault car in monaco)


Now how the hell did he do that? :lol:

surprise surprise, he did it by crashing
it was the same weekend some F1 drivers got a penalty, and some other F renault 3.5 drivers got penaltys too, however these drivers just got a penalty, pastor got a ban because he was too 'dangerous'
he responded quite well with winning this race often in GP2. Originally they wanted to ban him from 'ever driving anything at monaco again'
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

Post by Mister Fungus »

Barrichelo almost delivered on his Q3 promise, hopefully things are on the up for Williams.
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

Post by mario »

This wrote:
Wizzie wrote:
This wrote:(despite actually being banned from driving a formula renault car in monaco)


Now how the hell did he do that? :lol:

surprise surprise, he did it by crashing
it was the same weekend some F1 drivers got a penalty, and some other F renault 3.5 drivers got penaltys too, however these drivers just got a penalty, pastor got a ban because he was too 'dangerous'
he responded quite well with winning this race often in GP2. Originally they wanted to ban him from 'ever driving anything at monaco again'

Maldonado was given a four race ban by the WRS organisers because at the Monaco round he deliberately ignored waved yellow flags and ran down a marshall attending to another driver who had crashed. That was why Maldonado's driving was found guilty of "dangerous driving", and to be honest he fully deserved that penalty.

Still, back to Rubens - he managed to claw his way towards and almost into the top 10, and given how important fresh sets of tyres are this year, potentially he might have an advantage over the lower half of the top 10 (he might well have more fresh sets of tyres, especially the softs). He was putting a lot of pressure onto both Renault drivers there, which, considering how competitive Renault were just a couple of races ago, is interesting (7th and 9th for Renault is slightly flattering, as Schumacher's poor lap in Q3, and Massa's failure to set a lap helped Petrov and Heidfeld up a few places).
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Re: And what is Williams doing?

Post by Ferrim »

For whatever reason Malaysia and China were very poor tracks for Williams. They've had a tendency to be either very good or crap, depending on the circuit, for quite a few years now -with the sole exception of the 2009 car which was consistent everywhere.
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