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Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 18 Jul 2012, 16:39
by Pamphlet
FMecha wrote:Pamphlet wrote:Yes, I'm going to say it - Alonso is overrated. And this is coming from not just a tifosi, but also someone who heavily respects him for his actions in 2007. I consider him to have won 2005 (Newey messed up) and 2006 (Renault and Ferrari shared the top spots) by merit, but he was insanely lucky to stay in the championship fights in 2007 and 2010.
Except that the fact he stayed in championship fight in 2010 was, IMO, helped by the German GP Team Orders.
No, Ferrari did the right thing there. Sure, Massa wasn't too far off from Alonso in the championship, and he even led after 3 races, but this is Ferrari we're talking about. They want the drivers' championship more than anything in the world. They pulled the same moves with Raikkonen in 2008 (China) and, yet again, Massa in 2007 (Brazil, he had slightly better pace than Raikkonen but the oddly-timed last stop put him in traffic.) And let's not forget about Barrichello.
Plus, it was only 7 points. It's nothing compared to the 19 points he gained on Vettel in Bahrain, or the monstrous 32 points he gained in Korea (also on Vettel.)
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 18 Jul 2012, 18:14
by CoopsII
Pamphlet wrote:Yes, I'm going to say it - Alonso is overrated.
Yeah whatever. And hes just happened to fool the entire F1 community about how good he is. Except, somehow, you
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 18 Jul 2012, 18:31
by mario
AndreaModa wrote:Faustus wrote:I think Lewis Hamilton will never again be Formula 1 champion.
That's interesting because I was thinking something similar a couple of days ago, although he's still young and got plenty of time ahead of him, I can't see him having the overall complete package as a driver in comparison to a driver like Alonso. Granted, Hamilton did well in 2009 when the McLaren was nothing like competitive, but in general he's just been good, not outstanding in my opinion, certainly in these last couple of years anyway.
I would say that whilst the odds may be much longer than once they were, given that Hamilton could still be racing for nearly another decade (he is 27 this year) it is possible that the grid could yet be shuffled in such a way that McLaren find, and maintain, a performance advantage that gives Hamilton a title.
The recent major rule changes have seen a lot of turmoil up and down the grid in the past few years - in the past few years since Hamilton took his title in 2008, we have seen one team vanish altogether (Toyota) and three teams go through major restructuring (Sauber, after BMW pulled out, the former Honda team that is now Mercedes and Renault Sport selling the Renault F1 team to Genii Capital).
Red Bull Racing have only come to the fore since 2009 after Newey's third car for the team finally paid off (helped in no small part to Toro Rosso, with whom they have been sharing data with ever since they bought the team out), whilst the Renault engine, initially considered to be at a slight disadvantage, is now a distinct advantage thanks to its slightly lower fuel consumption compared to the other teams.
A fair amount has changed in barely four years, so given that another major rule change is due in 2014 - one which should shift the balance slightly back towards manufacturer backed teams - and that Hamilton is likely to remain driving for one of the major teams - McLaren - for a number of years yet, I wouldn't entirely dismiss the notion he could take another title (albeit considering it unlikely given that there are a number of promising younger drivers in the field at relatively competitive teams).
Pamphlet wrote:FMecha wrote:Pamphlet wrote:Yes, I'm going to say it - Alonso is overrated. And this is coming from not just a tifosi, but also someone who heavily respects him for his actions in 2007. I consider him to have won 2005 (Newey messed up) and 2006 (Renault and Ferrari shared the top spots) by merit, but he was insanely lucky to stay in the championship fights in 2007 and 2010.
Except that the fact he stayed in championship fight in 2010 was, IMO, helped by the German GP Team Orders.
No, Ferrari did the right thing there. Sure, Massa wasn't too far off from Alonso in the championship, and he even led after 3 races, but this is Ferrari we're talking about. They want the drivers' championship more than anything in the world. They pulled the same moves with Raikkonen in 2008 (China) and, yet again, Massa in 2007 (Brazil, he had slightly better pace than Raikkonen but the oddly-timed last stop put him in traffic.) And let's not forget about Barrichello.
Plus, it was only 7 points. It's nothing compared to the 19 points he gained on Vettel in Bahrain, or the monstrous 32 points he gained in Korea (also on Vettel.)
To be more accurate, I think that they would have rather had both the drivers and constructors title for the additional prestige (something that they have alluded to both in the past and at the moment). Because they get a special cut from FOM because of their historic status, the WCC is perhaps slightly less important because the financial hit of finishing one place lower is less - but they still pay attention to it.
Mathematically, you are right that the use of team orders in Germany had a limited impact on the championship that year: Alonso would still have been leading the championship in the final race in Abu Dhabi, albeit by just one point instead of eight, although the odds would have been slightly more against him (given that both Red Bull and McLaren were faster in Abu Dhabi).
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 18 Jul 2012, 19:46
by Pamphlet
CoopsII wrote:Pamphlet wrote:Yes, I'm going to say it - Alonso is overrated.
Yeah whatever. And hes just happened to fool the entire F1 community about how good he is. Except, somehow, you
It's happened before.
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 18 Jul 2012, 19:55
by CoopsII
Pamphlet wrote:CoopsII wrote:Pamphlet wrote:Yes, I'm going to say it - Alonso is overrated.
Yeah whatever. And hes just happened to fool the entire F1 community about how good he is. Except, somehow, you
It's happened before.
Er. Yeah. You're quite the wit.
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 18 Jul 2012, 19:58
by Pamphlet
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 19 Jul 2012, 00:33
by Salamander
I also remember the fact that, at 25, it's way too early to make a call on his career.
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 19 Jul 2012, 02:23
by Pamphlet
BlindCaveSalamander wrote:I also remember the fact that, at 25, it's way too early to make a call on his career.
Hence why I mentioned it.
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 19 Jul 2012, 06:55
by CoopsII
I find Pamphlets views on F1 as boring as they are predictable.
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 19 Jul 2012, 08:00
by DemocalypseNow
CoopsII wrote:I find Pamphlets views on F1 as boring as they are predictable.
I think this belongs in the Popular F1 Opinions thread?
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 19 Jul 2012, 08:14
by CoopsII
kostas22 wrote:CoopsII wrote:I find Pamphlets views on F1 as boring as they are predictable.
I think this belongs in the Popular F1 Opinions thread?
Or we could get her a I Say Black Is White
Just For The Sake Of It Thread?
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 19 Jul 2012, 09:10
by RonDenisDeletraz
CoopsII wrote:I find Pamphlets views on F1 as boring as they are predictable.
Pamphlet just likes being controversial for the sake of being controversial. He has contradicted himself many times before.
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 19 Jul 2012, 09:41
by CoopsII
eurobrun wrote:CoopsII wrote:I find Pamphlets views on F1 as boring as they are predictable.
Pamphlet just likes being controversial for the sake of being controversial. He has contradicted himself many times before.
I wonder what people like that did with themselves before the internet emerged?
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 19 Jul 2012, 11:38
by Alianora La Canta
CoopsII wrote:eurobrun wrote:CoopsII wrote:I find Pamphlets views on F1 as boring as they are predictable.
Pamphlet just likes being controversial for the sake of being controversial. He has contradicted himself many times before.
I wonder what people like that did with themselves before the internet emerged?
Argued with their neighbours, most likely...
Back on topic: F1 is currently remarkably predictable, particularly once the qualifying results are posted.
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 19 Jul 2012, 12:33
by DemocalypseNow
Alianora La Canta wrote:Back on topic: F1 is currently remarkably predictable, particularly once the qualifying results are posted.
Valencia (!!) says hello.
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 19 Jul 2012, 13:18
by Pamphlet
CoopsII wrote:I find Pamphlets views on F1 as boring as they are predictable.
You mean there's something wrong with liking di Resta?
eurobrun wrote:CoopsII wrote:I find Pamphlets views on F1 as boring as they are predictable.
Pamphlet just likes being controversial for the sake of being controversial. He has contradicted himself many times before.
Yeah, no.
I didn't want to see you be so horribly wrongCoopsII wrote:eurobrun wrote:CoopsII wrote:I find Pamphlets views on F1 as boring as they are predictable.
Pamphlet just likes being controversial for the sake of being controversial. He has contradicted himself many times before.
I wonder what people like that did with themselves before the internet emerged?
NES games.
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 19 Jul 2012, 14:28
by F1000X
I've always liked this scenario which will never come to pass.
I think rear wings should be banned. Not restricted, BANNED. Barge boards? BAN THEM TOO. Let them keep front wings if they like, they won't be much use when the car will be difficult to aero balance with wings the size they are now.
Bigger tires, 18 inches out back. 15 inches (or more) in front.
Most importantly, 1000HP.
I like the idea of seeing cars that scream down the straights but have to tiptoe through the corners for fear of falling victim to their own strength. If they need to be slowed down, ban carbon brakes (maybe that will save money) to increase the braking distances.
I can only imagine how radical the body sculpting would look.
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 19 Jul 2012, 19:06
by FMecha
F1000X wrote:I've always liked this scenario which will never come to pass.
I think rear wings should be banned. Not restricted, BANNED. Barge boards? BAN THEM TOO. Let them keep front wings if they like, they won't be much use when the car will be difficult to aero balance with wings the size they are now.
Bigger tires, 18 inches out back. 15 inches (or more) in front.
Most importantly, 1000HP.
I like the idea of seeing cars that scream down the straights but have to tiptoe through the corners for fear of falling victim to their own strength. If they need to be slowed down, ban carbon brakes (maybe that will save money) to increase the braking distances.
I can only imagine how radical the body sculpting would look.
That would be suicide racing machines, so no. 1K HP + big tires + no rear wings and bargeboards? From safety POV, GOD NO.
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 19 Jul 2012, 20:18
by Londoner
The X-wings used by several F1 teams in the early part of 1998 actually looked pretty good.
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 19 Jul 2012, 20:30
by DemocalypseNow
East Londoner wrote:The X-wings used by several F1 teams in the early part of 1998 actually looked pretty good.
I must therefore theorise that your favourite font is Comic Sans. Were you born without any comprehension of style?
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 19 Jul 2012, 20:34
by Londoner
kostas22 wrote:East Londoner wrote:The X-wings used by several F1 teams in the early part of 1998 actually looked pretty good.
I must therefore theorise that your favourite font is Comic Sans. Were you born without any comprehension of style?
Very much so.
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 19 Jul 2012, 21:12
by the Masked Lapwing
East Londoner wrote:The X-wings used by several F1 teams in the early part of 1998 actually looked pretty good.
I agree with you there. Although I am the guy who thinks the Honda RA107 had one of the best liveries of all time
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 19 Jul 2012, 23:06
by dinizintheoven
F1000X wrote:I've always liked this scenario which will never come to pass.
I think rear wings should be banned. Not restricted, BANNED. Barge boards? BAN THEM TOO. Let them keep front wings if they like, they won't be much use when the car will be difficult to aero balance with wings the size they are now.
Here's one I made earlier, and by "earlier" I mean when a few of the teams were testing 2009-spec rear wings on their 2008 cars and the world screamed "UGLY!" in unison before realising that, a few years before, the rear wings always were as tall as the top of the airbox.
I dread to think what Kazuki Nakajima would have made of this car were it real, but it certainly involves splinters of carbon fibre strewn all over the racetrack and the gravel trap.
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 20 Jul 2012, 06:40
by CoopsII
East Londoner wrote:The X-wings used by several F1 teams in the early part of 1998 actually looked pretty good.
They're not as bad as I remember but they still seem to have a stuck-on-at-the-last-minute look about them
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 20 Jul 2012, 18:52
by AdrianSutil
CoopsII wrote:East Londoner wrote:The X-wings used by several F1 teams in the early part of 1998 actually looked pretty good.
They're not as bad as I remember but they still seem to have a stuck-on-at-the-last-minute look about them
That's because they kind've were
I thought the Prost and Tyrrell once were the best-looking. But it's duwn to the livery really.
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 22 Jul 2012, 18:37
by FMecha
Having seeing that Vettel was penalized in German GP, I think, at a penultimate GP, Vettel will pull a Jerez '97.
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 23 Jul 2012, 05:48
by CoopsII
FMecha wrote:Having seeing that Vettel was penalized in German GP, I think, at a penultimate GP, Vettel will pull a Jerez '97.
Get hit by a Ferrari?
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 23 Jul 2012, 07:47
by FMecha
CoopsII wrote:FMecha wrote:Having seeing that Vettel was penalized in German GP, I think, at a penultimate GP, Vettel will pull a Jerez '97.
Get hit by a Ferrari?
Wrong. The opposite. Vettel will, on purpose, hit Alonso.
After I think about it, I think I should post this in Pasta's tantrum thread.
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 23 Jul 2012, 08:34
by CoopsII
FMecha wrote:CoopsII wrote:FMecha wrote:Having seeing that Vettel was penalized in German GP, I think, at a penultimate GP, Vettel will pull a Jerez '97.
Get hit by a Ferrari?
Wrong. The opposite. Vettel will, on purpose, hit Alonso.
A move that will by that point in the season possibly gift the title to Alonso
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 23 Jul 2012, 09:28
by FMecha
CoopsII wrote:FMecha wrote:CoopsII wrote:Get hit by a Ferrari?
Wrong. The opposite. Vettel will, on purpose, hit Alonso.
A move that will by that point in the season possibly gift the title to Alonso
... and disqualify Vettel from the standings.
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 23 Jul 2012, 10:52
by ibsey
FMecha wrote:Having seeing that Vettel was penalized in German GP,
I'm glad you brought that up, as I actually felt Button's actions in that incident should have been called into question as well. Why?
Well because on the exit of the hairpin, Button didn't seem to give any space to Vettel to allow him to fight alongside Button, whislt still remaining within the confines of the white lines. Therefore IMO Button forced or 'squeezed' Vettel of the track (possibly an unpopular opinion there).
If Button had given a little more space to Vettel, then I would have agreed 100% with the penalty. However with the lack of space Button actually gave Vettel in reality, makes me question whether what Button did was completely fair?
IIRC earlier in the race, Rakkionen passed M Schumi in a simliar incident. Although I'm now a little hazy about the exact detail of that particular pass, I went check on utube, & it doesn't appear to be posted there yet. However IIRC Rakkionen, who was in exactly the same position as Button, appeared to give plenty of room to M Schumi on the exit of the hairpin...probably fearful that M Schumi was going to dish out his famous 'i'll run you out of road' tactic as he did with Barrichello in Hungary 2010. Yet Rakkionen still managed to get passed M Schumi.
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 23 Jul 2012, 11:19
by Salamander
ibsey wrote:FMecha wrote:Having seeing that Vettel was penalized in German GP,
I'm glad you brought that up, as I actually felt Button's actions in that incident should have been called into question as well. Why?
Well because on the exit of the hairpin, Button didn't seem to give any space to Vettel to allow him to fight alongside Button, whislt still remaining within the confines of the white lines. Therefore IMO Button forced or 'squeezed' Vettel of the track (possibly an unpopular opinion there).
If Button had given a little more space to Vettel, then I would have agreed 100% with the penalty. However with the lack of space Button actually gave Vettel in reality, makes me question whether what Button did was completely fair?
Looking at an
an onboard with Vettel, I think if he really intended to stay on the track, he would've not given so much room to Button. It also shows him straightening out halfway through the corner - which he never would've done if he intended to try and make the corner. Had Vettel been a bit more aggressive in forcing Button to the inside, and thus actually attempted to make the corner, Button never would've been able to take more or less his normal line.
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 23 Jul 2012, 11:30
by RonDenisDeletraz
BlindCaveSalamander wrote:ibsey wrote:FMecha wrote:Having seeing that Vettel was penalized in German GP,
I'm glad you brought that up, as I actually felt Button's actions in that incident should have been called into question as well. Why?
Well because on the exit of the hairpin, Button didn't seem to give any space to Vettel to allow him to fight alongside Button, whislt still remaining within the confines of the white lines. Therefore IMO Button forced or 'squeezed' Vettel of the track (possibly an unpopular opinion there).
If Button had given a little more space to Vettel, then I would have agreed 100% with the penalty. However with the lack of space Button actually gave Vettel in reality, makes me question whether what Button did was completely fair?
Looking at an
an onboard with Vettel, I think if he really intended to stay on the track, he would've not given so much room to Button. It also shows him straightening out halfway through the corner - which he never would've done if he intended to try and make the corner. Had Vettel been a bit more aggressive in forcing Button to the inside, and thus actually attempted to make the corner, Button never would've been able to take more or less his normal line.
And that video has already been taken down.
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 23 Jul 2012, 11:51
by FMecha
And ibsey, you DO realise that what I say about Vettel's move was slightly different that you say (i.e. possibility of Vettel doing Jerez 97 against Alonso in a penultimate race)?
Although, as a Vettel fan, I'm inclined to agree. I missed the race, but I did check F1.com for a TV image of the incident.
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 23 Jul 2012, 14:09
by Aerospeed
FMecha wrote:CoopsII wrote:FMecha wrote: Vettel will, on purpose, hit Alonso.
A move that will by that point in the season possibly gift the title to Alonso
... and disqualify Vettel from the standings.
...and send Vettel to a complete downward spiral with a new team that has the egos the size of jupiter, and within a decade from today, he'll have released an album which is quite horrible.
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 23 Jul 2012, 14:59
by dinizintheoven
JeremyMcClean wrote:...and send Vettel to a complete downward spiral with a new team that has the egos the size of jupiter, and within a decade from today, he'll have released an album which is quite horrible.
He's already done it.
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 23 Jul 2012, 15:39
by Ferrim
FMecha wrote:CoopsII wrote:FMecha wrote:Having seeing that Vettel was penalized in German GP, I think, at a penultimate GP, Vettel will pull a Jerez '97.
Get hit by a Ferrari?
Wrong. The opposite. Vettel will, on purpose, hit Alonso.
"You have to leave a space!! All the time you have to leave a space!!"
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 23 Jul 2012, 16:24
by ibsey
BlindCaveSalamander wrote:ibsey wrote:
I'm glad you brought that up, as I actually felt Button's actions in that incident should have been called into question as well. Why?
Well because on the exit of the hairpin, Button didn't seem to give any space to Vettel to allow him to fight alongside Button, whislt still remaining within the confines of the white lines. Therefore IMO Button forced or 'squeezed' Vettel of the track (possibly an unpopular opinion there).
If Button had given a little more space to Vettel, then I would have agreed 100% with the penalty. However with the lack of space Button actually gave Vettel in reality, makes me question whether what Button did was completely fair?
Looking at an
an onboard with Vettel, I think if he really intended to stay on the track, he would've not given so much room to Button. It also shows him straightening out halfway through the corner - which he never would've done if he intended to try and make the corner. Had Vettel been a bit more aggressive in forcing Button to the inside, and thus actually attempted to make the corner, Button never would've been able to take more or less his normal line.
Hopefully this clip of the incident works...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8AxKMTEN08Yep I agree that Vettel was too quick to use the run-off area & therefore his penalty was justified. The correct thing, of course, would have been to keep at least two of his wheels within the confines of the race track (or give Button 2nd position back after he made that illegal move).
However I sense that the reason Vettel did what he did, was because Button was squeezing him off the track & Vettel was unsure of Button's intentions in that split second. Remember Vettel is much closer to leading the drivers championship than Button is. Therefore Button, perhaps can afford to risk more in these 50/50 situations & Vettel must be aware of this.
However I do not dispute Vettel's penalty.
BlindCaveSalamander wrote:Had Vettel been a bit more aggressive in forcing Button to the inside, and thus actually attempted to make the corner, Button never would've been able to take more or less his normal line.
This is the issue that I was trying to highlight above. Button's driving onto Vettel's line (i.e. the normal racing line) once Vettel decided to go off the race track. That doesn't sit well with me, as of course this meant that Button got better drive off the corner etc. I think it would have been wiser had Button left a car width on the outside of the corner. Just to hammer home the point he was prepared to give Vettel space.
When Vettel & Button were side by side, it wasn't clear whether Button was going to leave Vettel space or not.
Please be aware I do think Button would have left space, I just wanted him to show it more.
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 23 Jul 2012, 17:23
by Salamander
ibsey wrote:BlindCaveSalamander wrote:Had Vettel been a bit more aggressive in forcing Button to the inside, and thus actually attempted to make the corner, Button never would've been able to take more or less his normal line.
This is the issue that I was trying to highlight above. Button's driving onto Vettel's line (i.e. the normal racing line) once Vettel decided to go off the race track. That doesn't sit well with me, as of course this meant that Button got better drive off the corner etc. I think it would have been wiser had Button left a car width on the outside of the corner. Just to hammer home the point he was prepared to give Vettel space.
When Vettel & Button were side by side, it wasn't clear whether Button was going to leave Vettel space or not.
Please be aware I do think Button would have left space, I just wanted him to show it more.
What? So, even though it was fairly obvious that Vettel wasn't going to make the corner unless he aborted the move altogether, Button should comprimise his exit anyway? Why on earth should he do that? There was absolutely no guarantee Vettel would've got a penalty, and comprimising his exit as such would've ended all hope of him regaining the position. Had Vettel actually made an effort to make the corner, and been forced off by Button, then you might have a point. But he didn't, entitling Button to take any line he wanted.
Re: Unpopular F1 opinions
Posted: 23 Jul 2012, 18:24
by Aerospeed
We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.
