Grand Prix Rejects

DanielPT wrote:

Wizzie wrote:

mario wrote:It looks like another team have already developed their own system - possibly Ferrari if they have been asking about the legality of the system - so there might not be as much to loose if they did patent it.

The hunch has been proven correct.

Looks like we'll be heading back to status quo very soon at this rate depending on whether this system actually makes that much of a difference

I expect FIA to ban the system somewhere in the mid season only to let the teams race it until the end of 2012 before banning it altogether.

You are probably right about that - the FIA eventually stepped in to ban active ride height systems back in the 1990's, and now that teams are developing what looks like a passive version of the same systems, it's probably only a matter of time before this is banned as well. On the other hand the FIA have allowed some passive suspension system, such as the hydraulically linked system that teams like Mercedes have been using on their cars to modify their behaviour in roll, whilst according to scarbsf1 Toyota had produced a system which modified the behaviour of the third spring under braking (albeit with a limited performance gain, which is probably why it is still permitted), so it isn't an entirely forgone conclusion that they'll bad such systems immediately.
Mind you, should the FIA feel inclined to ban such systems it looks like there are already existing clauses within the regulations which could be invoked, such as clause 10.2.3

10.2 Suspension geometry :
[...]
10.2.3 No adjustment may be made to the suspension system while the car is in motion.

It could be argued that the system they have developed falls foul of that clause if, as James Allen speculated, the system works to raise the front of the car under braking, since it implies that the front suspension geometry is being modified by this system. I wouldn't completely rule out the possibility that somebody challenged the legality of this system in the first race when scruitineering takes place - probably one of the smaller teams who won't have the resources to copy such a device easily.

Captain Hammer wrote:

mario wrote:To be fair to Boullier it seems that the team itself were trying to keep this system under wraps

It was a mistake to run it at the young driver tests, precisely because this sort of thing could - and did - happen. I get that Lotus wanted to test it on a car that they fully unerstood to evaluate it, but what was stopping them from running it late in the winter tests? That would have kept the whole thing under wraps for longer, rather than seeing it leak out and giving the other teams nine weeks to make their own systems.

It seems that Renault might have been working on this system for a lot longer than we first thought - Autosport is reporting that Renault submitted this system to Charlie Whiting back in late 2010 with approval coming from Whiting in Jan 2011, and it is thought that Renault might have even been running this system back in the 2011 pre-season tests before mechanical problems forced them to push back development of this system. I wouldn't be surprised, therefore, if there hadn't already been a few rumours about this sort of system in the paddock before the Young Driver tests - even allowing for how quickly the teams can develop parts in F1, the Young Driver test was only about 8 weeks ago, and it would be fairly quick for a team to go from spotting an unknown mechanical device device, evaluating its function, replicating that and submitting the final conceptual design to Whiting.

QuickYoda41 wrote:Not affecting most of you, but it's now confirmed that HWNSNBM's wisdom will be shared in the Hungarian TV during races. Probably just a small bit of it, though, as no ordinary human beings could deal with more.

At least they made a wise choice picking Gábor Wéber!

When reading about this system, I did keep thinking that the Lotus being referred to was the Caterham team...

I need to see the testing pace first before I buy into the 'next must-have gadget' hysteria. It will undoubtedly be a moot point if Lotus do well in Australia though, moreso than in testing as some like to sponsor-hunt with low fuel.

@Wizzie: In relation to your sig, I went for sideburns à la Grosjean.

BaconLettuceNinja wrote:
@Wizzie: In relation to your sig, I went for sideburns à la Grosjean.

And I went for eye-brows, Alonso style. Oh yeah, I forgot I had those since I was a kid... Oh well, it must be an Iberian thing.

I would follow in the hair-growth cult but my beard is like my hair - and a dishwater blonde beard just looks ridiculous.

Bruno Senna is the strong favourite to take the Williams seat.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula ... 544865.stm

Amongst the candidates who were in serious contention for the seat, this is the single worst choice they could make. I just hope they realise that before it's too late.

dr-baker wrote:When reading about this system, I did keep thinking that the Lotus being referred to was the Caterham team...

Something must be done about this.

I say we refer to The Team Formerly Known As Toleman, Benetton And Renault (Sponsored By Lotus And Genii Capital) as Toleman. Or maybe TTFKATBARSBLAGC if you want another impossible to remember acronym. Then again, maybe that's not a good idea, because "TTFKATBARSBLAGC!" was approximately the noise that came from my mouth last time I was forced to eat sprouts.

dinizintheoven wrote:

dr-baker wrote:When reading about this system, I did keep thinking that the Lotus being referred to was the Caterham team...

Something must be done about this.

I say we refer to The Team Formerly Known As Toleman, Benetton And Renault (Sponsored By Lotus And Genii Capital) as Toleman. Or maybe TTFKATBARSBLAGC if you want another impossible to remember acronym. Then again, maybe that's not a good idea, because "TTFKATBARSBLAGC!" was approximately the noise that came from my mouth last time I was forced to eat sprouts.

I think TTFKATBARSBLAGC is the sound made by the engines for the off throttle blown diffusers, of which Renault were the worst last year!

BaconLettuceNinja wrote:I need to see the testing pace first before I buy into the 'next must-have gadget' hysteria. It will undoubtedly be a moot point if Lotus do well in Australia though, moreso than in testing as some like to sponsor-hunt with low fuel.

@Wizzie: In relation to your sig, I went for sideburns à la Grosjean.

We can only wait and see since the picture from testing can sometimes be extremely misleading - remember how Toro Rosso looked to be fairly strong during testing, such that most people were tipping them to be at the upper end of the midfield last year. Similarly, Ferrari looked to be quite close to Red Bull before calibration problems after they upgraded their wind tunnel meant that their final upgrade package before Australia failed to work as expected, whilst Renault started off strongly enough with their exhaust configuration but found the development potential was more limited than they'd first thought.
As others have suggested, whilst this particular device may offer the team a potentially interesting avenue of development, the fact that Renault are thought to have spent at least a year working on this system suggests that it is not trivial to implement. Furthermore, there have been some questions about the effects that this system may have on the overall behaviour of the suspension system and the car as a whole, so until we see how this device performs on the track there are still some unresolved questions.

Anyway, onto the other story in this thread

TomPryce wrote:Bruno Senna is the strong favourite to take the Williams seat.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula ... 544865.stm

Whilst I have my reservations over Bruno Senna driving for Williams, I can see why Bruno Senna might be gaining some traction with the senior management at Williams.

With Lux now launching legal action against Sutil, Sutil now looks like a less attractive proposition even though the general consensus is that he drove very well for Force India towards the end of last season, plus it does seem that Sutil has been criticised for not being a particularly good development driver. As for Barrichello, whilst it seems he has the support of the mechanics and engineers who have been working with him, his relationship with the senior management has been troubled, even if Patrick Head, who seems to have been the most hostile towards Barrichello, has now moved to the Hybrid Power subsidiary operation.

And there is one other simple factor in this equation, which is money. Out of those drivers, Sutil has a small amount of personal sponsorship (though the court case may now put that in jeopardy), whilst Barrichello, though seemingly reasonably cheap to hire, is unlikely to pull in much sponsorship cash. Whilst Bruno Senna's talent has sometimes been questioned this season, his ability to raise sponsorship hasn't - between OGX, Embratel, Gilette and others it's thought that Bruno Senna might have as much as $16 million in sponsorship behind him.
Given that Williams's poor results in 2011 are thought to have cost the team about $10 million in lost revenue from FOM, not to mention the loss of AT&T - which Reuters puts at $7 million a year - the money that Bruno Senna has would help cover that loss of income, particularly since the talk of deals with Qatari companies seems to be fading a little. Signing Bruno Senna would almost certainly generate a major amount of publicity for the team too - even if it would also raise a few uncomfortable questions - and could well be enough to push Group Lotus and Kimi out of the headlines for now.

Incidentally, as a final tangential aside, McLaren have announced that they are on track for the first test in Jerez having already passed the crash tests late last year. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/97004
However, there do seem to be a few slightly contradictory rumours about Ferrari's current car - there has been some talk that Ferrari have been pushing the limits for how light they can make the monocoque which lead to the first prototype failing its crash test (though there is some indication that a reinforced design has passed the crash tests a few days ago and that Project 663 is still on track).

question about drs of the system used last year from top to bottom who had the best to the one who had it

S951 wrote:question about drs of the system used last year from top to bottom who had the best to the one who had it

That is an interesting question - generally, the perception amongst the paddock last year was that, for the majority of the season, the most effective DRS in terms of shedding drag was the system used by Mercedes (it seems that Mercedes typically gained a few more kph with their DRS enabled than other teams, though that also depends on other factors like the choice of gear ratios).
Mind you, when you look at the track data this season it's worth noting that the W02 was pretty quick in a straight line generally even without the use of the DRS, which suggests that Mercedes had a car that had reasonably low drag (probably in part because of the deficit in downforce it had compared to its rivals).

As to a ranking system, that is hard because throughout the season the teams were experimenting with slight differences in the dimensions of the flap. McLaren were especially active in that regard, and during the season they evaluated different chord lengths with different impacts on drag and downforce reduction, so at times the DRS that McLaren used had a larger or smaller impact on top speed (as well as shedding downforce) depending on the configuration. Towards the end of the season, though, it seems that McLaren settled on a shorter chord design, which seemed to offer a better trade off between drag reduction and the resultant shift in the centre of downforce.
Overall, the effectiveness of the DRS probably broadly reflects the competitiveness of the teams as a whole (Mercedes being a slight exception to the rule) - the systems in use by the smaller teams seemed slightly less effective than those used by bigger outfits, but overall the difference in performance is probably not that large due to the relatively strict rules the FIA put in place concerning the dimensions of the flap (which meant that most of the teams, save for McLaren and Williams, were using flaps that were roughly the same size and therefore behaved fairly similarly when activated).

To be fair on Senna, he's not really had much of a chance in F1 yet. He's never had a full pre-season test program, let alone a full season. He definitely deserves a go in the Williams.

Regarding DRS, the Mercedes was very good on the straights with a good balance of top speed and DRS output. However, they were pretty hard on their tyres which cost them some valuable results. Toro Rosso also had an effective system towards the end of the season as well.

The only problem I have with Williams signing B.Senna is the awkwardness of seeing that helmet in a car with that colour scheme...

That, and of course if Maldonaldo is genuinely being run for 2012, then Williams are going to have a rather too inexperienced, and potentially too volatile, driver line-up.

BaconLettuceNinja wrote:To be fair on Senna, he's not really had much of a chance in F1 yet. He's never had a full pre-season test program, let alone a full season. He definitely deserves a go in the Williams.

While he does deserve a chance, it shouldn't be at Williams because it'll do neither of them any favours. Especially when neither he or Maldonado in the other car are renowned for their technical ability and with Williams having a relatively weak design team compared to other teams on the grid, they need someone who can develop the car.

Wizzie wrote:

BaconLettuceNinja wrote:To be fair on Senna, he's not really had much of a chance in F1 yet. He's never had a full pre-season test program, let alone a full season. He definitely deserves a go in the Williams.

While he does deserve a chance, it shouldn't be at Williams because it'll do neither of them any favours. Especially when neither he or Maldonado in the other car are renowned for their technical ability and with Williams having a relatively weak design team compared to other teams on the grid, they need someone who can develop the car.

I am still unconvinced about the importance level (high) that we, fans, tend to give to driver input in technical terms. Just look at Force India and what is said about Sutil. It is not like they are faltering...

DanielPT wrote:

Wizzie wrote:

BaconLettuceNinja wrote:To be fair on Senna, he's not really had much of a chance in F1 yet. He's never had a full pre-season test program, let alone a full season. He definitely deserves a go in the Williams.

While he does deserve a chance, it shouldn't be at Williams because it'll do neither of them any favours. Especially when neither he or Maldonado in the other car are renowned for their technical ability and with Williams having a relatively weak design team compared to other teams on the grid, they need someone who can develop the car.

I am still unconvinced about the importance level (high) that we, fans, tend to give to driver input in technical terms. Just look at Force India and what is said about Sutil. It is not like they are faltering...

But at the same time they do have a technical partnership with McLaren if my memory is correct

Wizzie wrote:

DanielPT wrote:

Wizzie wrote:While he does deserve a chance, it shouldn't be at Williams because it'll do neither of them any favours. Especially when neither he or Maldonado in the other car are renowned for their technical ability and with Williams having a relatively weak design team compared to other teams on the grid, they need someone who can develop the car.

I am still unconvinced about the importance level (high) that we, fans, tend to give to driver input in technical terms. Just look at Force India and what is said about Sutil. It is not like they are faltering...

But at the same time they do have a technical partnership with McLaren if my memory is correct

They do. But neither Hamilton or Button are feeding technical input on the FI car. That I know of.

I still think a good technical input from the driver might be worth a few tenths and some sound guidelines in development direction. But given the huge telemetry data and analysis it is not like an engineer has trouble to spot improvement areas...

Minardi Man wrote:The only problem I have with Williams signing B.Senna is the awkwardness of seeing that helmet in a car with that colour scheme...

That, and of course if Maldonaldo is genuinely being run for 2012, then Williams are going to have a rather too inexperienced, and potentially too volatile, driver line-up.

Not to mention the fact that their cars still bear the symbol of the Senna Foundation (currently situated between the front wing pillars). You're not the only person who feels a little uncomfortable with that image, particularly given that Bruno has made a visual link between himself and Ayrton (remember how Martin Brundle commented that Bruno Senna looked unnervingly like Ayrton when Bruno had his helmet on). Like it or not it would inevitably be opening up a potentially uncomfortable line of questioning, so I imagine that Williams would be treating Bruno Senna with much more consideration than normal.

Wizzie wrote:

DanielPT wrote:

Wizzie wrote:While he does deserve a chance, it shouldn't be at Williams because it'll do neither of them any favours. Especially when neither he or Maldonado in the other car are renowned for their technical ability and with Williams having a relatively weak design team compared to other teams on the grid, they need someone who can develop the car.

I am still unconvinced about the importance level (high) that we, fans, tend to give to driver input in technical terms. Just look at Force India and what is said about Sutil. It is not like they are faltering...

But at the same time they do have a technical partnership with McLaren if my memory is correct

DanielPT wrote:They do. But neither Hamilton or Button are feeding technical input on the FI car. That I know of.

I still think a good technical input from the driver might be worth a few tenths and some sound guidelines in development direction. But given the huge telemetry data and analysis it is not like an engineer has trouble to spot improvement areas...

During the earlier part of the 2011 season Hamilton did make a comment that indicated that he and Button had helped drive development in one area (it was related to the rear suspension I believe).
As to driver technical feedback, that is a difficult area - it is true that the importance of the drivers role in providing information has diminished considerably over the years as data logging techniques have become more sophisticated (we've seen the various sensors and aero measuring devices the teams have been running during test sessions), which is part of a trend that has been spreading across motor sport as a whole. Added to that there is the fact that the complexity of the sport has grown considerably in recent years, such that a driver may recommend changes that are detrimental to the performance of a car (I recall one instance back in 2010 where Rosberg asked the team to increase the front wing angle slightly as the car was understeering slightly, only for the team to over rule him as increasing the front wing angle made the problem worse [because the airflow to the underfloor of the car had been disrupted]).

Yet for all the efforts of the technical team working on the cars, ultimately they still have to be driven by a person, and what that person may say or feel can sometimes be very different to what was expected. That is not to say that they are always right - there have been cases where a driver has reported that a change in set up has lead to the opposite effect to that which was expected because he is subconsciously driving the car in such a way as to counteract that change - but at the same time, given that the simulation of the behaviour of a new component can sometimes be slightly out, a driver can provide useful data that proves something is amiss.

mario wrote:With Lux now launching legal action against Sutil, Sutil now looks like a less attractive proposition even though the general consensus is that he drove very well for Force India towards the end of last season

Tin foil hat time!

When The Team That Was Formerly Known as Lotus signed an engine deal with Renault, there was speculation that Romain Grosjean could be given a seat with the team as a part of the deal. Then there was the whole Lotus vs. Lotus court case and war of words, and it all looked incredibly unlikely. Williams, on the other hand, have a Renault engine deal in place, but they're not as easy to push one way or the other because they've been in the sport for so long and Frank Williams is a smooth operator - he'd know when he was being used. Both Senna and Sutil have been in contention for the Williams seat for a while now, but Sutil's stock has eroded with the news that he will stand trial over the episode in the Shanghai nightclub. The person involved in that altercation was Eric Lux, a senior Renault staff member.

Like I said, tin foil hats ...

Captain Hammer wrote:

mario wrote:With Lux now launching legal action against Sutil, Sutil now looks like a less attractive proposition even though the general consensus is that he drove very well for Force India towards the end of last season

Tin foil hat time!

When The Team That Was Formerly Known as Lotus signed an engine deal with Renault, there was speculation that Romain Grosjean could be given a seat with the team as a part of the deal. Then there was the whole Lotus vs. Lotus court case and war of words, and it all looked incredibly unlikely. Williams, on the other hand, have a Renault engine deal in place, but they're not as easy to push one way or the other because they've been in the sport for so long and Frank Williams is a smooth operator - he'd know when he was being used. Both Senna and Sutil have been in contention for the Williams seat for a while now, but Sutil's stock has eroded with the news that he will stand trial over the episode in the Shanghai nightclub. The person involved in that altercation was Eric Lux, a senior Renault staff member.

Like I said, tin foil hats ...

Eric Lux is the Director of the Lotus Renault GP team. While not as bad as being a senior Renault staff member is not that great either for Sutil's prospects.

In the article posted about Bruno Senna there are also talks about Petrov replacing Trulli at Caterham which I have been expecting for quite some time now.

I reckon Petrov to Caterham, Senna to Williams and Algersuari to HRT.

fjackdaw wrote:I reckon Petrov to Caterham, Senna to Williams and Algersuari to HRT.

i second this, except for I wish Liuzzi stays.

if petrov and senna get those seats i want to see rubens tonio and jaime battle it out for the hrt seat i'm sure there are a few more we could put in there but despite her not being great it would make me smile if the lady driver got it

S951 wrote:if petrov and senna get those seats i want to see rubens tonio and jaime battle it out for the hrt seat i'm sure there are a few more we could put in there but despite her not being great it would make me smile if the lady driver got it

Reminds me of a topic that Jamie and Enoch discussed on the most recent podcast...

I say senna to Williams, Petrov to Marussia, Glock in the third Force India, Barichello to HRT, Caterham will start the season for Trulli, but D'Ambrosio will take over later in the season, because he has more money but the same amount of talent as Alguersuari.
If he doesn't go to jail, Sutil will take over one of the HRT's later in the season, Yamamoto will take over the other HRT.


And i just needed to post this one:
http://www.silly-beer.com/p_saison_en.htm

Petrov will not go to Caterham

You say that like it's a fact. Got anything to back it up?

ok how about Senna to anywhere but Williams because his family requested he not sign with that team. how do you guys disregard that?
anyways, petrov to Marussia, and i will agree that sutil will be on to Force India.

to be honest i think Senna can wiggle his way into a test driver seat at Mclaren.


...note how i didn't burst out laughing that time

It's just I can't see him fitting in at Caterham. I still think Slowtus shoudn't have sacked him.

eurobrun wrote:It's just I can't see him fitting in at Caterham.

Oh. That's your "evidence". Here's a tip: think about what you write. You said "Petrov will not go to Caterham". The wording of your statement makes it out to be a fact. And if it is a fact, then you need something to support it - like, say, a link to an article where Tony Fernandes says "Vitaly Petrov will not race for Caterham in 2012". Your opinion, on the other hand, is not fact. Are you in a position where you can say one way or the other as to whether Petrov will race for Caterham? Do you know people involved in the team who can tell you whether he will race for them or not? Have you spoken with Petrov and asked him if he will drive for Caterham? If the answer is no, how can you say that he will not drive for them when you have nothing to back it up. I, personally, cannot see Kimi Raikkonen racing for Lotus ... but he is. My opinion that he will not fit in with the team doesn't change the fact that he will race for them - just as your opinion that Petrov will not fit in at Caterham does not mean that he will not race for them.

A better way of wording your original post would have been "I don't think Petrov will go to Caterham". It makes it clear that this is your opinion, rather than presenting something as a fact when it is not.

It's because he only posts in one-line form, pushing his post count higher up with no real effort.

Anyway, I do think Petrov will go to Caterham. It's no secret that anyone who brings enough money to buy out Trulli's contract will get the drive. What I'm more interested in is where the future now lies for Sutil. This impendings court case surely puts him out of a drive for next year and this will only make it more difficult to find a seat for 2013.

This wrote:I say senna to Williams, Petrov to Marussia, Glock in the third Force India, Barichello to HRT, Caterham will start the season for Trulli, but D'Ambrosio will take over later in the season, because he has more money but the same amount of talent as Alguersuari.
If he doesn't go to jail, Sutil will take over one of the HRT's later in the season, Yamamoto will take over the other HRT.


And i just needed to post this one:
http://www.silly-beer.com/p_saison_en.htm

NO. Barrichello WILL defenitely retire.

Autosport is reporting that Kevin Ceccon is among the contenders for the second HRT seat. Normally I'd write this off as idle speculation, but something is clearly afoot: until a week ago, Kevin Ceccon was contracted to drive for Coloni in GP2. An issue of The GP2 Insider quoted him directly as saying he would race for the team. But then, a week ago, Coloni signed Stefano Coletti and Fanio Onidi. No mention was made of Ceccon. I suppose it makes sense on a certain level - Tonio Liuzzi is probably not going to race at HRT this year. And popular rumour places Vitaly Petrov in the seat currently held by Jarno Trulli. That means that there will be no Italian drivers on the grid, probably for the first time since the mid-1970s. Maybe for the first time in the history of the sport. I imagine that this would equal a national scandal in Italy, and that Italian businesses would move heaven and earth to make sure there was an Italian driver in Formula 1.

So either the Ceccon deal was misreported, or his contract was somehow terminated – possibly because HRT are looking to take him. I can’t imagine it would be terminated without a solid deal in place for 2012, but I think it’s more likely that wires got crossed and Ceccon was misreported as racing for Coloni.

This is bollocks. Ceccon is only 18 and has very little experience. Does he bring substantial economic backing with him? Because otherwise I think it's unthinkable any F1 team would be interested in his services. Otherwise, I think it's more advisable for him that he bides his time and enjoys the pleasure of driving competitively in feeder categories. He's still too young, and he'd risk burning his prospects too quickly.

Phoenix wrote:This is bollocks. Ceccon is only 18 and has very little experience. Does he bring substantial economic backing with him? Because otherwise I think it's unthinkable any F1 team would be interested in his services. Otherwise, I think it's more advisable for him that he bides his time and enjoys the pleasure of driving competitively in feeder categories. He's still too young, and he'd risk burning his prospects too quickly.

That reminds me of when those crazy guys at STR brought in a 19 year old Alguersuari in...

DanielPT wrote:

Phoenix wrote:This is bollocks. Ceccon is only 18 and has very little experience. Does he bring substantial economic backing with him? Because otherwise I think it's unthinkable any F1 team would be interested in his services. Otherwise, I think it's more advisable for him that he bides his time and enjoys the pleasure of driving competitively in feeder categories. He's still too young, and he'd risk burning his prospects too quickly.

That reminds me of when those crazy guys at STR brought in a 19 year old Alguersuari in...

Who you can argue was not ready for F1 in his first year, and of course that was SRT, not HRT, I doubt HRT will be anywhere near as good at developing young drivers within their team, and Ceccon is more likely to harm his reputation driving a HRT alongside the much more experienced and consistent de la rossa, while Alguersuari had arguably an easier teammate for a yardstick.

Can I ask why everybody seems to have ruled out the possibility of Petrov going to Williams?

Minardi Man wrote:
Can I ask why everybody seems to have ruled out the possibility of Petrov going to Williams?

Probably because the BBC have now reported Bruno Senna as the favourite:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula ... 544865.stm

don't know about you guys, especially the other Brits on here, but I tend to believe the BBC. Senna's main advantage is the amount of sponsorship he's rumoures to bring, which will obviously help Williams. There's also a little bit about Petrov being favourite to replace Trulli and Sutil's chances diminishing. But we kinda knew that already.