Grand Prix Rejects

Don't know if this has been done yet, but if not, here we are. This is a definitive list of which race each F1 World Champion would have made his debut at, had he been the same age as Max Verstappen at his first race. I've done it by days, to avoid problems with leap years, and I've picked the next available F1 World Championship race after (or on) the day that driver was 6,375 days old. There is a mild complication in that seven of the champions could have made their debuts before the Formula 1 World Championship existed, and three of them did - so I've picked whichever race was next in line that was either designated as a Grande Épreuve, or was the Indianapolis 500 (which was a Grande Épreuve from 1923-30, and then part of the F1 World Championship from 1950-60). I have then made a further exception for the two drivers who could have debuted while there was no Grand Prix racing at all during World War II, for which I've nominated the first Grand Prix of any kind to be held afterwards, rather than the 1946 Indianapolis 500. So, here we go:

GIUSEPPE FARINA (b. 30 October 1906)
First F1 World Championship Grand Prix: 1950 British Grand Prix (13 May 1950)
- First Grande Épreuve: 1935 Monaco Grand Prix (22 April 1935)
Max-Age date: 13 April 1924
First possible major race: 1924 Indianapolis 500 (Grand Épreuve, 30 May 1924)

JUAN MANUEL FANGIO (b. 24 June 1911)
First F1 World Championship Grand Prix: 1950 British Grand Prix (13 May 1950)
- First Grande Épreuve: 1948 French Grand Prix (18 July 1948)
Max-Age date: 6 December 1928
First possible major race: 1929 Indianapolis 500 (Grand Épreuve, 30 May 1929)

ALBERTO ASCARI (b. 13 July 1918)
First F1 World Championship Grand Prix: 1950 Monaco Grand Prix (21 May 1950)
- First Grande Épreuve: 1947 Italian Grand Prix (7 September 1947)
Max-Age date: 26 December 1935
First possible major race: 1936 Monaco Grand Prix (Grand Épreuve, 13 April 1936)

MIKE HAWTHORN (b. 10 April 1929)
First F1 World Championship Grand Prix: 1952 Belgian Grand Prix (22 June 1952)
Max-Age date: 23 September 1946
First possible major race: 1947 Indianapolis 500 (30 May 1947)

JACK BRABHAM (b. 2 April 1926)
First F1 World Championship Grand Prix: 1955 British Grand Prix (16 July 1955)
Max-Age date: 15 September 1943
First possible major race: 1945 Paris Cup (9 September 1945), or 1946 Indianapolis 500 (30 May 1946)

PHIL HILL (b. 20 April 1927)
First F1 World Championship Grand Prix: 1958 French Grand Prix (6 July 1958)
Max-Age date: 2 October 1944
First possible major race: 1945 Paris Cup (9 September 1945), or 1946 Indianapolis 500 (30 May 1946)

GRAHAM HILL (b. 15 February 1929)
First F1 World Championship Grand Prix: 1958 Monaco Grand Prix (18 May 1958)
Max-Age date: 31 July 1946
First possible major race: 1946 Turin Grand Prix (Grande Épreuve, 1 September 1946)

JIM CLARK (b. 4 March 1936)
First F1 World Championship Grand Prix: 1960 Dutch Grand Prix (6 June 1960)
Max-Age date: 17 August 1953
First possible Grand Prix: 1953 Swiss Grand Prix (23 August 1958)

JOHN SURTEES (b. 11 February 1934)
First F1 World Championship Grand Prix: 1960 Monaco Grand Prix
Max-Age date: 27 July 1951
First possible Grand Prix: 1951 German Grand Prix (29 July 1951)

DENNY HULME (b. 18 June 1936)
First F1 World Championship Grand Prix: 1965 Monaco Grand Prix (30 May 1965)
Max-Age date: 1 December 1953
First possible Grand Prix: 1954 Argentine Grand Prix (17 January 1954)

JACKIE STEWART (b. 11 June 1939) - corrected, cheers to Simtek
First F1 World Championship Grand Prix: 1965 South African Grand Prix (1 January 1965 - which meant qualifying was in 1964...)
Max-Age date: 23 November 1956
First possible Grand Prix: 1957 Argentine Grand Prix (13 January 1957)

JOCHEN RINDT (b. 18 April 1942)
First F1 World Championship Grand Prix: 1964 Austrian Grand Prix (28 August 1964)
Max-Age date: 1 October 1959
First possible Grand Prix: 1959 United States Grand Prix (12 December 1959)

EMERSON FITTIPALDI (b. 12 December 1946)
First F1 World Championship Grand Prix: 1970 British Grand Prix (18 July 1970)
Max-Age date: 26 May 1964
First possible Grand Prix: 1964 Belgian Grand Prix (14 June 1964)

NIKI LAUDA (b. 22 February 1949)
First F1 World Championship Grand Prix: 1971 Austrian Grand Prix (15 August 1971)
Max-Age date: 7 August 1966
First possible Grand Prix: 1966 German Grand Prix (7 August 1966)

JAMES HUNT (b. 29 August 1947)
First F1 World Championship Grand Prix: 1973 Monaco Grand Prix (3 June 1973)
Max-Age date: 10 February 1965
First possible Grand Prix: 1965 Monaco Grand Prix (30 May 1965)

MARIO ANDRETTI (b. 28 February 1940)
First F1 World Championship Grand Prix: 1968 United States Grand Prix (6 October 1968)
Max-Age date: 12 August 1957
First possible Grand Prix: 1957 Pescara Grand Prix (18 August 1957)

JODY SCHECKTER (b. 29 January 1950)
First F1 World Championship Grand Prix: 1972 United States Grand Prix (8 October 1972)
Max-Age date: 14 July 1967
First possible Grand Prix: 1967 British Grand Prix (15 July 1967)

ALAN JONES (b. 2 November 1946)
First F1 World Championship Grand Prix: 1975 Spanish Grand Prix (27 April 1975)
Max-Age date: 16 April 1964
First possible Grand Prix: 1964 Monaco Grand Prix (10 May 1964)

NELSON PIQUET (b. 17 August 1952)
First F1 World Championship Grand Prix: 1978 German Grand Prix (30 July 1978)
Max-Age date: 30 January 1970
First possible Grand Prix: 1970 South African Grand Prix (7 March 1970)

KEKE ROSBERG (b. 6 December 1948)
First F1 World Championship Grand Prix: 1978 South African Grand Prix (4 March 1978)
Max-Age date: 21 May 1966
First possible Grand Prix: 1966 Monaco Grand Prix (22 May 1966)

ALAIN PROST (b. 24 February 1955)
First F1 World Championship Grand Prix: 1980 Argentine Grand Prix (13 January 1980)
Max-Age date: 8 August 1972
First possible Grand Prix: 1972 AUstrian Grand Prix (13 August 1972)

AYRTON SENNA (b. 21 March 1960)
First F1 World Championship Grand Prix: 1984 Brazilian Grand Prix (25 March 1984)
Max-Age date: 3 September 1977
First possible Grand Prix: 1977 Italian Grand Prix (11 September 1977)

NIGEL MANSELL (b. 8 August 1953)
First F1 World Championship Grand Prix: 1980 Austrian Grand Prix (17 August 1980)
Max-Age date: 21 January 1971
First possible Grand Prix: 1971 South African Grand Prix (6 March 1971)

MICHAEL SCHUMACHER (b. 3 January 1969)
First F1 World Championship Grand Prix: 1991 Belgian Grand Prix (25 August 1991)
Max-Age date: 18 June 1986
First possible Grand Prix: 1986 Detroit Grand Prix (22 June 1986)

DAMON HILL (b. 17 September 1960)
First F1 World Championship Grand Prix: 1992 Spanish Grand Prix (3 May 1992)
Max-Age date: 2 March 1978
First possible Grand Prix: 1978 South African Grand Prix (4 March 1978)

JACQUES VILLENEUVE (b. 9 April 1971)
First F1 World Championship Grand Prix: 1996 Australian Grand Prix (10 March 1996)
Max-Age date: 21 September 1988
First possible Grand Prix: 1988 Portuguese Grand Prix (25 September 1988)

MIKA HÄKKINEN (b. 28 September 1968)
First F1 World Championship Grand Prix: 1991 United States Grand Prix (10 March 1991)
Max-Age date: 13 March 1986
First possible Grand Prix: 1986 Brazilian Grand Prix (23 March 1986)

FERNANDO ALONSO (b. 29 July 1981)
First F1 World Championship Grand Prix: 2001 Australian Grand Prix (4 March 2001)
Max-Age date: 11 January 1999
First possible Grand Prix: 1999 Australian Grand Prix (7 March 1999)

KIMI RÄIKKÖNEN (b. 17 October 1979)
First F1 World Championship Grand Prix: 2001 Australian Grand Prix (4 March 2001)
Max-Age date: 31 March 1997
First possible Grand Prix: 1997 Argentine Grand Prix (13 April 1997)

LEWIS HAMILTON (b. 7 January 1985)
First F1 World Championship Grand Prix: 2007 Australian Grand Prix (18 March 2007)
Max-Age date: 22 June 2002
First possible Grand Prix: 2002 European Grand Prix (23 June 2002)

JENSON BUTTON (b. 19 January 1980)
First F1 World Championship Grand Prix: 2000 Australian Grand Prix (12 March 2000)
Max-Age date: 3 July 1997
First possible Grand Prix: 1997 British Grand Prix (13 July 1997)

SEBASTIAN VETTEL (b. 3 July 1987)
First F1 World Championship Grand Prix: 2007 United States Grand Prix (17 June 2007)
Max-Age date: 15 December 2004
First possible Grand Prix: 2005 Australian Grand Prix (6 March 2005)

NICO ROSBERG (b. 27 June 1985)
First F1 World Championship Grand Prix: 2006 Bahrain Grand Prix (12 March 2006)
Max-Age date: 10 December 2002
First possible Grand Prix: 2003 Australian Grand Prix (9 March 2003)


BONUS STATISTIC: No F1 World Champions have ever been born in May. This will continue for the foreseeable future as none of the current F1 line-up were born in May either (including Antonio Giovinazzi), and of the Formula 2 drivers, May's hopes lie only with Antonio Fuoco and Sérgio Sette Câmara.

Previous May-born drivers who might have done it had circumstances swung their way are Nick Heidfeld, Rubens Barrichello, Wolfgang von Trips, John Watson, Heinz-Harald Frentzen and Andrea Chiesa. Oh, wait, that last one's not right, is it...


BONUS BONUS STATISTIC, posted on 7th January 2014:

takagi_for_the_win wrote:Actual Stat Time!
Since their inception, Force India have always had a German driver in one of their cars. Following on from that, Force India have entered one German driver into every Grand Prix they have ever contested.

...until last Sunday.

Wow, weird to think that Damon Hill could have been racing in the 70s!

Being a May child, I'm dismayed by the lack of racing prowess.

watka wrote:Wow, weird to think that Damon Hill could have been racing in the 70s!

Being a May child, I'm dismayed by the lack of racing prowess.

I blame Bill Vukovich, he must have cursed this month somehow.

dinizintheoven wrote:Many beautiful statistics.

I think I just momentarily fell in love.

In addition to Max Verstappen (at 17 years, 166 days) being the youngest ever F1 driver, it is also worth remembering Louis Chiron's participation in the 1958 Monaco Grand Prix at the age of 58 years, 288 days.

This means that in addition to Damon Hill having a theoretical debut at the 1978 South African Grand Prix, he would also still be on the grid at a sprightly 56 years of age.

Assuming that he didn't miss a single race between times, the 2017 Australian Grand Prix would have been Hill's 658th, and he has roughly another 27 to go before finally becoming too old even by Chiron's standards..

The oldest driver on the grid on Hill's "debut" was Vittorio Brambilla (born: 11 Nov 1937), while the youngest driver on the grid at present is Lance Stroll (born: 29 Oct 1998). That's an age difference of 60 years, 351 days.

A fine job, but

dinizintheoven wrote:JACKIE STEWART (b. 11 March 1939)

That should be June, not March, which would give him a début at Indianapolis (or Spa) instead of Monza, assuming I haven't got it wrong myself.

Now for someone to go in the opposite direction: 21,472 days is the age Chiron was on the morning of his swansong-that-wasn't-to-be in 1958.

Simtek wrote:A fine job, but

dinizintheoven wrote:JACKIE STEWART (b. 11 March 1939)

That should be June, not March, which would give him a début at Indianapolis (or Spa) instead of Monza, assuming I haven't got it wrong myself.

Bum(garner). I knew something would go wrong somewhere, bearing in mind I spent an entire morning staring at Wikipedia articles and spreadsheets. We'll call it one-all, though, seeing as the revised first race is the Argentine Grand Prix on 13 January 1957.

Can you imagine Wee Jackie at Indy, though? "Och, it isnae safe racing against these walls..."

Simtek wrote:Now for someone to go in the opposite direction: 21,472 days is the age Chiron was on the morning of his swansong-that-wasn't-to-be in 1958.

I was considering it, but my head was already spinning after that lot. I'd also have to consider whether to include drivers who have died or suffered serious injuries (e.g. Michael Schumacher) as competing up to the point where it was no longer possible, or the theoretical dates where they reached the same age as Louis Chiron. While we all know what happened to Jochen Rindt, he would have reached that age on 1st June 2001 - and Ayrton Senna would finally be hanging up his helmet at the end of the 2018 season, reaching Chiron's age on 3rd January 2019. (Who knows, maybe he could also compete in a late-December Formula E race...?)

Max, of course, would still be racing in 2055 if he went on as long as Chiron did. I doubt I will live to see that date.

dinizintheoven wrote:Can you imagine Wee Jackie at Indy, though? "Och, it isnae safe racing against these walls..."

Easily. He almost won in 1966..

---

As for the drivers who started out young, surely Troy Ruttman warrants a mention. Troy began midget racing at age 15 in the forties and peaked in the early fifties, winning the 1952 Indy 500 at age 22 -- only to get severely injured in a heavy accident a month later. He would later recover and continue racing until age 34, but could no longer add any more notable achievements to his CV after the accident - apart from a couple of Grand Prix starts in a Maserati mid fifties, which also qualify him as a Reject. Surely that story would be worth a profile...?

With a career trajectory like Troy's, Farina would have "won his title" in 1927 and not done any post war racing!

giraurd wrote:

dinizintheoven wrote:Can you imagine Wee Jackie at Indy, though? "Och, it isnae safe racing against these walls..."

Easily. He almost won in 1966..

---

Troy Ruttman peaked in the early fifties, winning the 1952 Indy 500 at age 22... apart from a couple of Grand Prix starts in a Maserati mid fifties, which also qualify him as a Reject. Surely that story would be worth a profile...?

Technically, Troy is an F1 World Championship race winner, as you have stated. Unless you dismiss the 1950-1960 Indy 500s as so many people do... But those races are in the F1 history books...

dr-baker wrote:Technically, Troy is an F1 World Championship race winner, as you have stated. Unless you dismiss the 1950-1960 Indy 500s as so many people do... But those races are in the F1 history books...

Technically, he isn't. The F1 World Championship didn't exist until 1981.

Anyway, all going well, Rubens Barrichello will become the 38th driver ever to race in all three Triple Crown events, as he makes his Le Mans début later this year.

Yes, I have been rather slow in catching up on sportscar news lately.

Simtek wrote:

dr-baker wrote:Technically, Troy is an F1 World Championship race winner, as you have stated. Unless you dismiss the 1950-1960 Indy 500s as so many people do... But those races are in the F1 history books...

Technically, he isn't. The F1 World Championship didn't exist until 1981.

Anyway, all going well, Rubens Barrichello will become the 38th driver ever to race in all three Triple Crown events, as he makes his Le Mans début later this year.

Yes, I have been rather slow in catching up on sportscar news lately.

Umm, there must be something wrong with my stats?

G Hill, Rindt, J Villeneuve, Gurney, Mario Andretti
Clark, Alboreto, Sullivan, Gregory, Schuppan
Hulme, Donohue, Stewart, Cheever, Chiron
J Brabham, Boesel, Johansson, Mansell, Revson
Michael Andretti, Ascari, Regazzoni, Piquet, Bourdais
Alesi, Bucknum, T Fabi, Daly, Salazar
Moreno, Villoresi, Wilson, Nakano, Chilton

Who am I missing? (I know Nuvolari, McLaren, Bandini, Amon, Herbert, Pedro Rodriguez, Fangio, Dreyfus, Caracciola, Farina, Lammers, Ginther, Bondurant, Follmer, Schell, Grouillard, Spence, Daigh, Rebaque have attempted to qualify for each event but at least one of the attempts resulted in a DNQ/DNPQ/WD/DNS and thus they couldn't race)

giraurd wrote:

Simtek wrote:

dr-baker wrote:Technically, Troy is an F1 World Championship race winner, as you have stated. Unless you dismiss the 1950-1960 Indy 500s as so many people do... But those races are in the F1 history books...

Technically, he isn't. The F1 World Championship didn't exist until 1981.

Anyway, all going well, Rubens Barrichello will become the 38th driver ever to race in all three Triple Crown events, as he makes his Le Mans début later this year.

Yes, I have been rather slow in catching up on sportscar news lately.

Umm, there must be something wrong with my stats?

G Hill, Rindt, J Villeneuve, Gurney, Mario Andretti
Clark, Alboreto, Sullivan, Gregory, Schuppan
Hulme, Donohue, Stewart, Cheever, Chiron
J Brabham, Boesel, Johansson, Mansell, Revson
Michael Andretti, Ascari, Regazzoni, Piquet, Bourdais
Alesi, Bucknum, T Fabi, Daly, Salazar
Moreno, Villoresi, Wilson, Nakano, Chilton

Who am I missing? (I know Nuvolari, McLaren, Bandini, Amon, Herbert, Pedro Rodriguez, Fangio, Dreyfus, Caracciola, Farina, Lammers, Ginther, Bondurant, Follmer, Schell, Grouillard, Spence, Daigh, Rebaque have attempted to qualify for each event but at least one of the attempts resulted in a DNQ/DNPQ/WD/DNS and thus they couldn't race)

René Dreyfus and Christian Fittipaldi are missing. Dreyfus only took part at Indy in 1940 as a relief driver for René Le Begue, though.

I've also worked out the number of chassis constructors who have done all three: 13. And they are:

Alfa Romeo
Indy: 1937, 1939-40 & 1946-48 (best result: 6th, 1946)
Le Mans: 1930-35, 1937-39, 1953, 1958-59, 1962-65, 1968-70 & 1972-73 (best result: 1st, 1931-34)
Monaco: 1929, 1931-37, 1950 & 1980-85 (best result: 1st, 1932, 1934 & 1950)

Bugatti
Indy: 1914-15, 1923, 1941 & 1946 (best result: 9th, 1923)
Le Mans: 1923, 1930-35, 1937, 1939 & 1994 (best result: 1st, 1937 & 1939)
Monaco: 1929-36 (best result: 1st, 1929-31 & 1933)

Cooper (NOTE: Two entities named Cooper have participated in the 500, John and Charles Cooper's outfit only took part in 1961)
Indy: 1927-34, 1936, 1940-41, 1946, 1948 & 1961 (best result: 6th, 1927 & 9th, 1961)
Le Mans: 1955-57, 1959 & 1961 (best result: 8th overall & 2nd in class, 1956)
Monaco: 1950, 1957-69 (best result: 1st, 1958-59 & 1962)

Dallara
Indy: 1997-present (best result: 1st, 1998-99, 2001-02 & 2005-foreseeable future)
Le Mans: 2002, 2004-05 & returning 2017 (best result: 5th overall & 4th in class, 2002)
Monaco: 1988-92 (best result: 4th, 1989)

Delage
Indy: 1914-16 & 1929 (best result: 1st, 1914)
Le Mans: 1923, 1937-39 & 1949-50 (best result: 2nd overall & 1st in class, 1939 & 1949)
Monaco: 1929 (DNF)

Ferrari
Indy: 1952 (DNF, classified 31st)
Le Mans: 1949-75, 1977-82, 1984, 1994-99 & 2002-present (best result: 1st, 1949, 1954, 1958 & 1960-65)
Monaco: 1950, 1952, 1955-67 & 1969-present (best result: 1st, 1952, 1955, 1975-76, 1979, 1981, 1997, 1999 & 2001)

Lola
Indy: 1965-72, 1978-80 & 1983-96 (best result: 1st, 1966, 1978 & 1990)
Le Mans: 1960, 1963, 1967-84, 1992, 1999-2002 & 2004-13 (best result: 4th, 2009 & 2012)
Monaco: 1962-63, 1974, 1986-91 & 1993 (best result: 4th, 1962)

Lotus
Indy: 1963-69 (best result: 1st, 1965)
Le Mans: 1955-64, 1967, 1993-94, 1997, 2011 & 2013 (best result: 7th overall & 1st in class, 1956)
Monaco: 1958-94 & 2010-15 (best result: 1st, 1960-61, 1968-70, 1974 & 1987)

March
Indy: 1981-90 (best result: 1st, 1983-87)
Le Mans: 1975, 1982, 1984-86 & 1988-89 (best result: 14th overall & 1st in class, 1986)
Monaco: 1970-76, 1987-89 & 1992 (best result: 2nd, 1971)

Maserati
Indy: 1930, 1937-41 & 1946-51 (best result: 1st, 1939-40)
Le Mans: 1954-58 & 1960-65 (best result: 4th overall & 3rd in class, 1961
Monaco: 1929-37, 1948, 1950 & 1955-58 (best result: 1st, 1948 & 1956-57)

McLaren
Indy: 1970-81 (best result: 1st, 1972, 1974 & 1976)
Le Mans: 1995-98 (best result: 1st, 1995)
Monaco: 1966-82 & 1984-present (best result: 1st, 1984-86, 1988-93, 1998, 2000, 2002, 2005 & 2007-08)

Mercedes
Indy: 1911-15, 1919, 1923-24, 1930 & 1947-48 (best result: 1st, 1915)
Le Mans: 1930-32, 1952, 1955-56, 1991 & 1998-99 (best result: 1st, 1952)
Monaco: 1929-31, 1935-37, 1955 & 2010-present (best result: 1st, 1935-37 & 2013-16)

Peugeot
Indy: 1913-16 & 1919-22 (best result: 1st, 1913 & 1916)
Le Mans: 1926, 1952-53, 1991-93 & 2007-11 (best result: 1st, 1992-93 & 2009)
Monaco: 1931 (6th)

Any possible discrepancies in years will probably arise from rebadging exercises (rebadged Lolas, Alfas, Marches and Peugeots are just a few I've run across).

Hi, i did a little research and i find something interesting about the 2017 australian grand prix. With the substitution of Giovinazzi for Wehrlein, in the grid we have 15 nations represented,(AUS,BEL, BRA, CAN, DEN, DEU, SWE, FIN, UK, FRA, SPA, ITA, MEX, NED, RUS) and that (if i'm correct) is a record. In 1994 we have in Brazil 12 nations represented,in 2015 in Japan we have 13 nations and in 2014 in most of the races we have 14 nations.

Ps it's my first post

Aguvazk wrote:Hi, i did a little research and i find something interesting about the 2017 australian grand prix. With the substitution of Giovinazzi for Wehrlein, in the grid we have 15 nations represented,(AUS,BEL, BRA, CAN, DEN, DEU, SWE, FIN, UK, FRA, SPA, ITA, MEX, NED, RUS) and that (if i'm correct) is a record. In 1994 we have in Brazil 12 nations represented,in 2015 in Japan we have 13 nations and in 2014 in most of the races we have 14 nations.

Ps it's my first post

You can up that to seventeen if you choose to attribute Grosjean to Switzerland and Hamilton to Grenada.

I saw this recently: Since the return of Honda, McLaren failed to score points in the season opener. 11th place with Jenson Button in 2015 is the best result of the team in the Australian Grand Prix. Also, it's the third straight year Alonso retired from the same grand prix.

Counting their run in the '50s, this weekend is Mercedes 150th GP, and they sat on pole for 75 of them. Absolutely insane.

16 years since Ferrari last won Monaco..... the last time they went for 16 years without winning was in 1997 and they won that year too....

If Alonso joins Renault for 2018, he has been at the same team for 3 different periods.

Who have already succeeded in doing this?

GerhardTalger wrote:If Alonso joins Renault for 2018, he has been at the same team for 3 different periods.

Who have already succeeded in doing this?

Pierluigi Martini is the only one i can think of.

You mean that they switched back to teams over and over again? Because Tuero was at Minardi on three completely separate stints, but never drove for other teams.

Giancarlo Fisichella was with Benetton and Jordan, along with their successor teams:
Jordan / Force India - 1997; 2002-3; 2008-9
Benetton / Renault - 1998-2001; 2005-7

This wrote:

GerhardTalger wrote:If Alonso joins Renault for 2018, he has been at the same team for 3 different periods.

Who have already succeeded in doing this?

Pierluigi Martini is the only one i can think of.

I think Fisichella did it with Jordan/Force India. 1997, 2002/3, 2008/9

Mansell at Williams? 85-88, 91-92, 94. Not sure if you want to count this one.

Rob Dylan wrote:You mean that they switched back to teams over and over again? Because Tuero was at Minardi on three completely separate stints, but never drove for other teams.

Giancarlo Fisichella was with Benetton and Jordan, along with their successor teams:
Jordan / Force India - 1997; 2002-3; 2008-9
Benetton / Renault - 1998-2001; 2005-7

Beat me to it about Fisichella

Also interesting to see that Fisichella replaced Trulli twice in a row, at Jordan in 2002 and Renault in 2005 (ignoring the 3 races Villeneuve did for them in 2004)

And do you mean Tarso Marquez rather than Tuero?


Just remembered Philipe Alliot at Larrousse: 87-89, most of 93, one race near the end of 94

GerhardTalger wrote:If Alonso joins Renault for 2018, he has been at the same team for 3 different periods.

Who have already succeeded in doing this?

Piercarlo Ghinzani had 3 separate stints at Osella (81, 83-86 and 89)
Jean Pierre Jarier had 3 seperate stints at Ligier (77,81 and 83)
Pierluigi Martini drove for Minardi in 3 stints (85, 88-91 and 93-95)

peteroli34 wrote:Piercarlo Ghinzani had 3 separate stints at Osella (81, 83-86 and 89)

Poor bloke.

Nigel Mansell also had three stints with Williams: '85 to '88, '91 to '92, and then '94 after Senna's death. Arguably, Mansell could be said to have had four stints with Williams, because after the '94 French GP he went back to race in CART and didn't return until the European Grand Prix in Jerez, which was seven rounds and more than three months later.

Nick Heidfeld had three goes at Sauber - from '01 to '03 as Sauber, from '06 to '09 as BMW, then the back half of 2010 (replacing Pedro de la Rosa) when it was Sauber again.

I believe (perhaps wrongly) that Jose Froilan Gonzalez is the only man to have done so at Ferrari, and he had not three but four stints with the Scuderia. He raced for them in '51, then from '54 to '55, then in '57, then once more in '60. Not sure it fully counts though, as only '51 and '54 were proper campaigns - '55, '57 and '60 only saw him enter the Argentine Grand Prix.

To make this list, I gave each driver points based on their finish in a season's overall standings, so winning the championship is worth 10 points for example. As a compromise between the different points systems of F1 history, the system I used is 10-7-5-4-3-2-1.

1. Michael Schumacher (106)
2. Alain Prost (82)
3. Juan Manuel Fangio (64)
4. Lewis Hamilton (62)
5. Ayrton Senna (61)
6. Fernando Alonso (61)
7. Sebastian Vettel (59)
8. Nelson Piquet (54)
9. Jackie Stewart (53)
10. Kimi Räikkönen (51)
11. Niki Lauda (48)
12. Graham Hill (46)
13. Stirling Moss (43) highest non-champion
14. Jack Brabham (40)
15. Jim Clark (40)
16. Mika Häkkinen (40)
17. Nigel Mansell (40)
18. Emerson Fittipaldi (36)
19. Rubens Barrichello (36)
20. David Coulthard (36)
21. Denny Hulme (33)
22. Gerhard Berger (33)
23. John Surtees (32)
24. Damon Hill (31)
25. Jenson Button (31)
26. Alberto Ascari (30)
27. Carlos Reutemann (30)
28. Nico Rosberg (29)
29. Jody Scheckter (29)
30. Giuseppe Farina (29)
31. Mike Hawthorn (26)
32. Jacky Ickx (26)
33. Bruce McLaren (25)
34. Felipe Massa (24)
35. Clay Regazzoni (23)
36. Jacques Villeneuve (22)
37. Ronnie Peterson (22)
38. Alan Jones (21)
39. Riccardo Patrese (21)
40. Mark Webber (21)
41. Keke Rosberg (20)
42. Jochen Rindt (19)
43. Phil Hill (19)
44. Juan Pablo Montoya (19)
45. Ralf Schumacher (18)
46. Jean Alesi (18)
47. Mario Andretti (17)
48. James Hunt (17) lowest champion
49. Dan Gurney (17)
50. Tony Brooks (15)

That's an interesting list, but it tends to reward longevity in the sport over a short burst of brilliance. I divided each driver's total in your list by the number of seasons they were in F1 (partial or full, excluding 2017) which produced the results below.

It's arguable that this revised table might reward shorter careers in F1 too much, or rather penalise longer careers too much. Damon Hill jumping 12 places to 12th overall, Schumacher dropping to 6th for instance. The biggest movers were Montoya (up 22 places) Tony Brooks (21) and Rindt (18). Biggest fallers were Barrichello (22), Button (18) and Graham Hill (15).

1 (3). Juan Manuel Fangio (8.000)
2 (2). Alain Prost (6.307)
3 (4). Lewis Hamilton (6.200)
4 (7). Sebastian Vettel (5.900)
5 (9). Jackie Stewart (5.888)
6 (1). Michael Schumacher (5.578)
7 (5). Ayrton Senna (5.545)
8 (26). Alberto Ascari (5.000)
9 (15). Jim Clark (4.444)
10 (6). Fernando Alonso (4.066)
11 (13). Stirling Moss (3.909) highest non-champion
12 (24). Damon Hill (3.875)
13 (8). Nelson Piquet (3.857)
14 (31). Mike Hawthorn (3.714)
15 (11). Niki Lauda (3.692)
16 (10). Kimi Räikkönen (3.642)
17 (16). Mika Häkkinen (3.636)
18 (30). Giuseppe Farina (3.625)
19 (21). Denny Hulme (3.300)
20 (18). Emerson Fittipaldi (3.272)
21 (29). Jody Scheckter (3.222)
22 (44). Juan Pablo Montoya (3.166)
23 (27). Carlos Reutemann (2.727)
24 (42). Jochen Rindt (2.714)
25 (17). Nigel Mansell (2.666)
26 (28). Nico Rosberg (2.636)
27 (12). Graham Hill (2.555)
28 (14). Jack Brabham (2.500)
29 (50). Tony Brooks (2.500)
30 (23). John Surtees (2.461)
31 (37). Ronnie Peterson (2.444)
32 (48). James Hunt (2.428)
33 (20). David Coulthard (2.400)
34 (43). Phil Hill (2.375)
35 (22). Gerhard Berger (2.357)
36 (41). Keke Rosberg (2.222)
37 (38). Alan Jones (2.100)
38 (35). Clay Regazzoni (2.090)
39 (36). Jacques Villeneuve (2.000)
40 (33). Bruce McLaren (1.923)
41 (19). Rubens Barrichello (1.894)
42 (32). Jacky Ickx (1.857)
43 (25). Jenson Button (1.823)
44 (40). Mark Webber (1.750)
45 (34). Felipe Massa (1.714)
46 (45). Ralf Schumacher (1.636)
47 (49). Dan Gurney (1.545)
48 (46). Jean Alesi (1.384)
49 (39). Riccardo Patrese (1.235)
50 (47). Mario Andretti (1.214) lowest champion

This is the third season in-a-row with Alonso missing one race. Also, third season in-a-row with McLaren using three drivers. And Alonso was the third best F1 driver in the Indy 500 qualify (behind former F1 drivers Rossi and Sato).

Dj_bereta wrote:This is the third season in-a-row with Alonso missing one race. Also, third season in-a-row with McLaren using three drivers. And Alonso was the third best F1 driver in the Indy 500 qualify (behind former F1 drivers Rossi and Sato).

... I was about to come and point out that Rossi never actually raced a GP, thus not qualifying as a F1-driver. Then I went and doublechecked and I TOTALLY forgot that he did actually race in 2015. Chalk him up to the list of completely forgettable F1 drive(r)s

DonTirri wrote:... I was about to come and point out that Rossi never actually raced a GP, thus not qualifying as a F1-driver. Then I went and doublechecked and I TOTALLY forgot that he did actually race in 2015. Chalk him up to the list of completely forgettable F1 drive(r)s

Forgettable F1 driver who won the 500. Not a great advert for Indycar. It's like the elephant in the room; Indycar is a piece of piss.

CoopsII wrote:

DonTirri wrote:... I was about to come and point out that Rossi never actually raced a GP, thus not qualifying as a F1-driver. Then I went and doublechecked and I TOTALLY forgot that he did actually race in 2015. Chalk him up to the list of completely forgettable F1 drive(r)s

Forgettable F1 driver who won the 500. Not a great advert for Indycar. It's like the elephant in the room; Indycar is a piece of piss.

Get in.

Ataxia, you know it to be true. They're V.brave boys and girls of that there's no doubt, but relative to F1 Indycar is lemon squeezy.

Räikkönen is now the sole holder of the record for the most podiums that aren't wins.

But it's true. the sheer fact that when talking about US based open wheel racing you need to go through a crapton of acronyms like Indycar/CART/OWRS/IRL/USAC makes the whole proposition seem smalltime compared to F1.

Also not helped by the fact that Former F1-drivers who went over there and succeeded are numerous while the other way around youre limited to Andretti, Villeneuve and maybe Montoya.

The Technological backwardness of the cars, the boring simplicity of the (mostly) oval-based schedule, and the fact that no American driver has made any impact in F1 since Mario just makes American Open Wheelers look just like NFL. A cheap knockoff the Americans whipped up because they realized they sucked at a truly global sport, and then proceeded to promote the bathplug out of to make it seem bigger deal than it really is.

Sorry to break it to ya but thats just how it is, the facts speak for themselves, and Facts ALWAYS trump opinions and emotions.

And as far as ontopic discussion... Well the unusual F1-stat is the fact that number of successful F1 to Indycar migrants is so much larger than Indycar to F1 migrants.

DonTirri wrote:Sorry to break it to ya but thats just how it is, the facts speak for themselves, and Facts ALWAYS trump opinions and emotions.

Indeed. For example, the facts show that Lewis Hamilton is a better driver than Kimi Räikkönen.

tommykl wrote:

DonTirri wrote:Sorry to break it to ya but thats just how it is, the facts speak for themselves, and Facts ALWAYS trump opinions and emotions.

Indeed. For example, the facts show that Lewis Hamilton is a better driver than Kimi Räikkönen.

The facts merely show that Lewis is more consistent and has had access to better machinery on a more consistent basis.

I've never denied his driving ability. I bash him because of his inability to cope with non-top tier machinery (as shown by his last few years at macca and the constant bitching) as well as his inability to lose with grace (Abu Dhabi 2016 being a prime example).

DonTirri wrote:

tommykl wrote:

DonTirri wrote:Sorry to break it to ya but thats just how it is, the facts speak for themselves, and Facts ALWAYS trump opinions and emotions.

Indeed. For example, the facts show that Lewis Hamilton is a better driver than Kimi Räikkönen.

The facts merely show that Lewis is more consistent and has had access to better machinery on a more consistent basis.

I've never denied his driving ability. I bash him because of his inability to cope with non-top tier machinery (as shown by his last few years at macca and the constant bitching) as well as his inability to lose with grace (Abu Dhabi 2016 being a prime example).

Quite similarly, the facts show that IndyCar/CART drivers coming to F1 only rarely drove competitive machinery. Those who did? Villeneuve, Andretti and Montoya.

tommykl wrote:Quite similarly, the facts show that IndyCar/CART drivers coming to F1 only rarely drove competitive machinery. Those who did? Villeneuve, Andretti and Montoya.

Doesn't explain how they get consistently beat by their teammates in equal machinery. Bourdais in a car that won a grand prix managed a paltry 7th as his best. Zanardi also managed a paltry 7th in a car that took 3 podiums that year. Da Matta got beat by Panis both season he raced for Toyota. And the less said about Michael Andretti the better. I could probably dig other examples if I wanted to but that's pretty self explanatory right there.

DonTirri wrote:

tommykl wrote:Quite similarly, the facts show that IndyCar/CART drivers coming to F1 only rarely drove competitive machinery. Those who did? Villeneuve, Andretti and Montoya.

Doesn't explain how they get consistently beat by their teammates in equal machinery. Bourdais in a car that won a grand prix managed a paltry 7th as his best. Zanardi also managed a paltry 7th in a car that took 3 podiums that year. Da Matta got beat by Panis both season he raced for Toyota. And the less said about Michael Andretti the better. I could probably dig other examples if I wanted to but that's pretty self explanatory right there.

Whilst Vettel was obviously the star driver at Toro Rosso, points suggest that the gap was bigger than it was. Bourdais was unlucky whenever he was set to score points.

Also, da Matta beat Panis in 2003 IIRC.

I think we're comparing apples and oranges here. Although the jump from one set of single-seaters to another isn't quite as pronounced as perhaps the leap from motorbikes to cars, F1-to-Indy or vice versa does require a different skill set.

F1 cars are light and precise, and require a different style of driving to a heavier Indycar. F1 doesn't have ovals, and Indycar doesn't have quite the same level of technical complexity.

Fernando Alonso did incredibly well at the Indy 500 because he prepared himself, adapted to the completely different challenge and pushed himself to learn as much as he could. Had he not, he'd have completely sunk in the midfield before dropping it catastrophically.

DonTirri wrote:the boring simplicity of the (mostly) oval-based schedule

*looks at schedule*

Nope.

DonTirri wrote:Sorry to break it to ya but thats just how it is, the facts speak for themselves, and Facts ALWAYS trump opinions and emotions.

You've only given opinions yourself, though. Here's the facts; they're different things. You go a centimetre off-line in F1, and you're in the run-off at worst. On an oval, or at Long Beach, if an Indycar goes off line by a centimetre then you're in the wall. That said, in F1, if you push back a small development by a race then you can expect to fall back completely, and you'll be uncompetitive.

Just enjoy things for what they are, rather than what they aren't.

In the Indy 500s defence, had Alonso been in serious contention for the F1 title and he was putting in the level of effort and focus you'd expect him to there's no way he would've been able to be competitive at Indianapolis (also assuming there was no calendar clash). He's been able to forget about F1 and commit himself 100% to the task in hand whilst in the USA because his 2017 is becoming so forgettable.