Grand Prix Rejects

Klon wrote:

mario wrote:As for Prodrive, I wouldn't exactly call them a failure when it comes to F1 - it is worth noting that they were responsible for the 2004 BAR-Honda (the most successful car that outfit produced) and were active for a fairly long time as an outside consultant to the sport. A Prodrive run team would, I expect, be fairly competently managed, which isn't something that you can say about every team on the grid right now

They had their chance in 2008 and choked. Sure, they might be more professional now but nobody would take a rebirth of USF1 seriously, hardly anyone would take Dome seriously if they were to try to set up another F1 team even if either effort would be more professional than McLaren, Sauber and Williams combined so I personally refuse to give any bit of respect to David Richards and his bunch and their entries and from what we have seen neither does the FIA (thank HWNSNBM). I know this may be a bit harsh, but not turning up is the cardinal sin in all of F1 - for me, teams that have a grid slot but fail to make it to a race are worse than Andrea Moda. And I ain't takin' that back even if Richards' fifth attempt works out and we see Prodrive on the grid.

In 2008 it wasn't partly their fault as they decided to come in Toro Rosso and Super Aguri style only for Max Mosley to decide that costumer cars should be banned. Richards didn't had the doe to go full factory on the chassis side and decided best not to show up and drop the entry on the spot. A few years later HRT came and proved that you could do F1 with peanuts (and alledgedly Bernie paying a few things and easing you in). So yeah, Prodrive was partly to blame in that debacle.

Believe or not, Barrichello said recently in a Brazilian TV program (Arena Sportv) that he didn't give up on your F-1 career.

Its very impossible, but I hope to see a comeback.

Dj_bereta wrote:Believe or not, Barrichello said recently in a Brazilian TV program (Arena Sportv) that he didn't give up on your F-1 career.

Its very impossible, but I hope to see a comeback.

No, not happening. Hell freezes over before he makes a comeback. Michael Schumacher is more likely to have a cockpit next season than Barrichello is.

Barrichello to Caterhahahahahaham? I don't think so.

DanielPT wrote:

Klon wrote:

mario wrote:As for Prodrive, I wouldn't exactly call them a failure when it comes to F1 - it is worth noting that they were responsible for the 2004 BAR-Honda (the most successful car that outfit produced) and were active for a fairly long time as an outside consultant to the sport. A Prodrive run team would, I expect, be fairly competently managed, which isn't something that you can say about every team on the grid right now

They had their chance in 2008 and choked. Sure, they might be more professional now but nobody would take a rebirth of USF1 seriously, hardly anyone would take Dome seriously if they were to try to set up another F1 team even if either effort would be more professional than McLaren, Sauber and Williams combined so I personally refuse to give any bit of respect to David Richards and his bunch and their entries and from what we have seen neither does the FIA (thank HWNSNBM). I know this may be a bit harsh, but not turning up is the cardinal sin in all of F1 - for me, teams that have a grid slot but fail to make it to a race are worse than Andrea Moda. And I ain't takin' that back even if Richards' fifth attempt works out and we see Prodrive on the grid.

In 2008 it wasn't partly their fault as they decided to come in Toro Rosso and Super Aguri style only for Max Mosley to decide that costumer cars should be banned. Richards didn't had the doe to go full factory on the chassis side and decided best not to show up and drop the entry on the spot. A few years later HRT came and proved that you could do F1 with peanuts (and alledgedly Bernie paying a few things and easing you in). So yeah, Prodrive was partly to blame in that debacle.

And they've screwed up every project they've done since. The Aston Martin AMR-One was an embarrassment, while they squandered the Mini John Cooper Works WRC's potential by upsetting Mini enough that they lost all their funding.

Official: The Hulk has gone to Sauber for 2013.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2012/10/31/nico-hulkenberg-joins-sauber-2013/

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/103888

This is not good, quite disappointed to be honest.

Hulkenberg's choices were stay at FIndia or go to Sauber. Red Bull, McLaren, Ferrari, Mercedes and Lotus are locked out; Williams, etc. are slow.

So his choice is stay at a team where the finances are "delicate" and the route to a top Mercedes-engined team is closed after Perez' move or go to a well-run (they're Swiss!) team with a proven route to Ferrari who will be dumping at least one driver at the end of 2013 and possibly failing to keep the other.

So he made the right decision.

Sauber had a choice of promoting a rookie next to an erratic talent, Hulkenberg, Di Resta or possibly Kovalainen. McLaren had rejected Di Resta so that too was a no-brainer for Sauber.

The question is who will be next to him? If they are serious about being a top team rather than a feeder then they need proven talent and experience: Kobiyashi or Kovalainen? For me, another no-brainer given that neither bring money. So Hulkenburg and Kovalainen for Sauber in 2013. You saw me get it wrong here first.

Now who will be next to Di Resta? Bianchi, Kobiyashi, Sutil.... And who will be paying to drive for Caterham?

IceG wrote:Hulkenberg's choices were stay at FIndia or go to Sauber. Red Bull, McLaren, Ferrari, Mercedes and Lotus are locked out; Williams, etc. are slow.

So his choice is stay at a team where the finances are "delicate" and the route to a top Mercedes-engined team is closed after Perez' move or go to a well-run (they're Swiss!) team with a proven route to Ferrari who will be dumping at least one driver at the end of 2013 and possibly failing to keep the other.

So he made the right decision.

Sauber had a choice of promoting a rookie next to an erratic talent, Hulkenberg, Di Resta or possibly Kovalainen. McLaren had rejected Di Resta so that too was a no-brainer for Sauber.

The question is who will be next to him? If they are serious about being a top team rather than a feeder then they need proven talent and experience: Kobiyashi or Kovalainen? For me, another no-brainer given that neither bring money. So Hulkenburg and Kovalainen for Sauber in 2013. You saw me get it wrong here first.

Now who will be next to Di Resta? Bianchi, Kobiyashi, Sutil.... And who will be paying to drive for Caterham?

The catch with Ferrari, though, are the persistent rumours that the team have an option on Vettel for 2014 onwards - if those rumours are true and Alonso isn't leaving Ferrari in the near future, Hulkenberg can forget moving to Ferrari for several years (Alonso's contract expires in 2016, and if - it is a big if - Ferrari are hiring Vettel, he'd probably be on a multiple year contract too). Besides, Bianchi is still somewhat in the picture thanks to his testing role at Force India...

Speaking of him, Bianchi would be the most logical choice to partner Di Resta given that he has already driven for the team in a number of test sessions, not to mention the fact that Ferrari will probably be applying some pressure on the team to promote Bianchi. As for Caterham, we are probably going to see at least one new face there given that Petrov's seat is rumoured to be uncertain (there are some doubts being expressed over his ability to raise enough sponsorship) - and given that the team face a prospective cut in funding for 2013 due to the loss of 10th in the WCC to Marussia (and the cut in funding from FOM that entails), they are likely to be looking for the driver with the biggest wallet that they can find.

I can honestly see Senna in the 2nd Caterham, but Kobayahsi is also possible if he raises enough sponsorship

I get the feeling the Alguersaurus is heading to Force India. He'd be a darn sight better than Bianchi, who hasn't really impressed.

East Londoner wrote:I get the feeling the Alguersaurus is heading to Force India. He'd be a darn sight better than Bianchi, who hasn't really impressed.

I doubt it, for much the same reason that he probably won't drive for Williams despite the fact that he is easily faster than both Senna and Bottas. (And Maldonado 80% of the time)

eurobrun wrote:

East Londoner wrote:I get the feeling the Alguersaurus is heading to Force India. He'd be a darn sight better than Bianchi, who hasn't really impressed.

I doubt it, for much the same reason that he probably won't drive for Williams despite the fact that he is easily faster than both Senna and Bottas. (And Maldonado 80% of the time)

How can you say that if Bottas and Alguersaurus never drove in the same championship? It baffles me. And this is before seeing the impressive junior formulae results that Bottas has and that Alguersuarus hasn't. I will go even further and say that Bottas has the potential for being an F1 winner and possibly even championship contender. And I certainly hope so. You have absolutely no reason to dislike him like this as I am sure you barely seen him drive...

Also, you can't know that Alguersaurus is faster than Senna and Maldonado 80% of the times. There is no comparison basis.

Ricciardo and Vergne's seats are secure for next season.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2012/10/31/ricciardo-vergne-stay-toro-rosso-2013/

East Londoner wrote:Ricciardo and Vergne's seats are secure for next season.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2012/10/31/ricciardo-vergne-stay-toro-rosso-2013/

Hum... I reckon that there are four possible reasons for what Tost says in that piece:

a) This year's Toro Rosso is even worst than the one in 2010;

b) They are just bidding time by putting their junior programme drivers up to speed before hastily replacing one or both of them in the middle of next season;

c) Tost is completely clueless about were their drivers stand due to a lack of a yardstick from the previous years;

d) he was looking at last year's table when he made that decision.

Kovalainen still waiting for Caterham decision, Caterham may need to take on pay-drivers if they fail to get 10th place.

Why on earth would Force India be influenced by Ferrari to give Bianchi a drive? If they had Ferrari engines like they used to then I could understand, but it makes absolutely no sense in my eyes for Mallya to give Jules a drive when there are a whole host of proven, experienced drivers yet to be signed to teams.

I also think Kobayashi will stay at Sauber. I don't think they'll promote Guttierez yet, he's only had one practice outing and won't get much more before the 2013 season. I expect him to have a healthy schedule of Friday appearances in 2013 in preparation for a drive in 2014, maybe even the second half of 2013 if Kamui continues to disappoint.

If Petrov can raise the funds to keep his seat at Caterham then Kovalainen will be out of a drive, though maybe he'll take a reserve role elsewhere, but certainly no chance of a race seat. It says a lot that Caterham, having enjoyed the benefits of two seasons of finishing 10th in the constructors' championship, and with Petrov paying up this year, are still only marginally ahead of Marussia. It'll be interesting to see, if they hold onto 10th place, how Marussia will do next year in comparison to Caterham's progress.

AndreaModa wrote:Why on earth would Force India be influenced by Ferrari to give Bianchi a drive? If they had Ferrari engines like they used to then I could understand, but it makes absolutely no sense in my eyes for Mallya to give Jules a drive when there are a whole host of proven, experienced drivers yet to be signed to teams.

Normally, I'd agree with you but you have to take into account that Force India's bank accounts aren't looking too crash-hot right now, especially with the mess Mallya's airline is in. If Ferrari were to hold a large cheque book in front of Mallya in exchange for putting Bianchi in the car, it'd be a very enticing offer indeed.

Wizzie wrote:

AndreaModa wrote:Why on earth would Force India be influenced by Ferrari to give Bianchi a drive? If they had Ferrari engines like they used to then I could understand, but it makes absolutely no sense in my eyes for Mallya to give Jules a drive when there are a whole host of proven, experienced drivers yet to be signed to teams.

Normally, I'd agree with you but you have to take into account that Force India's bank accounts aren't looking too crash-hot right now, especially with the mess Mallya's airline is in. If Ferrari were to hold a large cheque book in front of Mallya in exchange for putting Bianchi in the car, it'd be a very enticing offer indeed.

An offer of cash from Ferrari seems to be the reason why Bianchi got the testing role at Force India in the first place, so a similar deal could presumably be brokered for Bianchi to get a race seat if Ferrari were interested enough. After all, some of the other prospective drivers in the running for the second Force India seat, such as Alguersuari, might only be able to bring a modest amount of funding with them, so a bit of extra funding might just tip things in his favour.

AndreaModa wrote:If Petrov can raise the funds to keep his seat at Caterham then Kovalainen will be out of a drive, though maybe he'll take a reserve role elsewhere, but certainly no chance of a race seat. It says a lot that Caterham, having enjoyed the benefits of two seasons of finishing 10th in the constructors' championship, and with Petrov paying up this year, are still only marginally ahead of Marussia. It'll be interesting to see, if they hold onto 10th place, how Marussia will do next year in comparison to Caterham's progress.

They could certainly do with additional prize money from FOM, as there are reports in the Guardian newspaper that the Marussia F1 team is in severe financial difficulties. According to them, Marussia made a £49 million loss in 2011 and had total debts of £77 million as of the end of 2011 (most of which - about £38 million - is owed to Lloyds Group, which has a 25% stake in the team), which is rather worrying given that the team itself is valued at only £45 million. The Guardian seems to believe that, should Marussia finish in 10th place this year, that they would then see their share of the prize funds from FOM shoot up from about $10 million to $40 million - a sum that might just help keep the team in business. http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/oc ... -investors

Wizzie wrote:Normally, I'd agree with you but you have to take into account that Force India's bank accounts aren't looking too crash-hot right now, especially with the mess Mallya's airline is in. If Ferrari were to hold a large cheque book in front of Mallya in exchange for putting Bianchi in the car, it'd be a very enticing offer indeed.

I think if Ferrari cared that much about Bianchi, he'd be the one at Sauber, not Hulkenberg.

Bianchi could still replace Kobayashi.

Although Esteban Gutierrez and Robin Frijns are the two drivers who are most frequently named as candidates for that second seat.

Sauber could take Frijns and Force India Bianchi, and we'd have a real grudge match on our hands.

Would be really happy to see Frijns in the second Sauber seat. That young man has potential by the bucketload.

Kovalainen has gone on record http://www.iltasanomat.fi/formula1/art-1288513130329.html saying he is not gonna cough up money and become a paydriver and if his driving skills only aren't enough to be in Formula One then so be it. I have a feeling there will be two Finns on the grid next year: Raikkonen and Bottas.

Benetton wrote:Kovalainen has gone on record http://www.iltasanomat.fi/formula1/art-1288513130329.html saying he is not gonna cough up money and become a paydriver and if his driving skills only aren't enough to be in Formula One then so be it. I have a feeling there will be two Finns on the grid next year: Raikkonen and Bottas.

He said much the same in one sentence during the BBC's coverage of the Indian Grand Prix qualifying session, just after the report said Tony Fernandes was going to recruit two pay-drivers for 2013. Logically, you could say it's Timo Glock's fortuitous result in Singapore that'll cost Heikki his place at Clatterham and possibly his whole Formula One career, when signing for this team and building them up from nothing was supposed to revive it. I know someone you're not going to be getting a Christmas card from this year, Timo...

dinizintheoven wrote:

Benetton wrote:Kovalainen has gone on record http://www.iltasanomat.fi/formula1/art-1288513130329.html saying he is not gonna cough up money and become a paydriver and if his driving skills only aren't enough to be in Formula One then so be it. I have a feeling there will be two Finns on the grid next year: Raikkonen and Bottas.

He said much the same in one sentence during the BBC's coverage of the Indian Grand Prix qualifying session, just after the report said Tony Fernandes was going to recruit two pay-drivers for 2013. Logically, you could say it's Timo Glock's fortuitous result in Singapore that'll cost Heikki his place at Clatterham and possibly his whole Formula One career, when signing for this team and building them up from nothing was supposed to revive it. I know someone you're not going to be getting a Christmas card from this year, Timo...

Well, you can't really blame Timo for it. The fact is that Caterham has been crap this season and slowly but surely Heikki's morale has gone down. Heikki deserves to be on the grid, like Kamui. The problem is that the economic climate is rough, therefore it is a era of pay drivers.

On the one hand, one could argue that to succeed in motorsport you need to have backers and that is just the game you need (or more your manager) needs to play. However, from a purist point of view I understand that it feels a bit strange to not have the top 24 best open seater drivers in the world in the series.

Benetton wrote:Well, you can't really blame Timo for it.

Not that I ever was, but it didn't stop the tifosi and the anti-Hamilton lunatic fringe sending him to the cleaners after the last corner of the 2008 season...

Benetton wrote:

dinizintheoven wrote:

Benetton wrote:Kovalainen has gone on record http://www.iltasanomat.fi/formula1/art-1288513130329.html saying he is not gonna cough up money and become a paydriver and if his driving skills only aren't enough to be in Formula One then so be it. I have a feeling there will be two Finns on the grid next year: Raikkonen and Bottas.

He said much the same in one sentence during the BBC's coverage of the Indian Grand Prix qualifying session, just after the report said Tony Fernandes was going to recruit two pay-drivers for 2013. Logically, you could say it's Timo Glock's fortuitous result in Singapore that'll cost Heikki his place at Clatterham and possibly his whole Formula One career, when signing for this team and building them up from nothing was supposed to revive it. I know someone you're not going to be getting a Christmas card from this year, Timo...

Well, you can't really blame Timo for it. The fact is that Caterham has been crap this season and slowly but surely Heikki's morale has gone down. Heikki deserves to be on the grid, like Kamui. The problem is that the economic climate is rough, therefore it is a era of pay drivers.

On the one hand, one could argue that to succeed in motorsport you need to have backers and that is just the game you need (or more your manager) needs to play. However, from a purist point of view I understand that it feels a bit strange to not have the top 24 best open seater drivers in the world in the series.

I don't think that Formula One has ever reached a stage where we can say "every driver in this field deserves to be here". There will always be under-funded, under-performing teams who need money. The wider F1 world should admire the team who has to resort to pay drivers. They could just give up when things don't work, or sell it off, but their love for the sport means they'll hire anyone just to go racing.

People always feel that F1 should have the best open wheel drivers in the world, but for me that would ruin Formula One. Formula One is meant to be diverse. There's always been people who don't deserve to be there, but are there due to a)~luck, b)money or both, and are giving it a go for the hell of it. That's what I love about F1 just as much as the tail-end. The woefully under-funded teams. Drivers that make Karthikeyan look like Vettel. Drivers that can hardly fit in the cockpit because of their huge pockets. It's great to see how they do, they might exceed expectations, or might be utter shite. Who knows?

I agree that Kovalainen should have a seat, but him standing around and moping about having no money isn't going to get him one. In fact, it might even be his fault his careers gone down the drain, he said himself he should have maximised his potential at McLaren but didn't, if he had - where would he be now?

And if he doesn't find a seat next year, that's sad, but it's great in the sense some new talent can try to prove himself, rather than the same drivers staying in the same team and 40 year olds having frivilous comebacks whilst talent wastes in GP2.

At the end of the day, what I'm trying to say is that pay drivers (and crap drivers) are as much as part of the sport as your Luadas, Piquets, Sennas and Schumachers. And I wouldn't have it any other way.

pasta_maldonado wrote:At the end of the day, what I'm trying to say is that pay drivers (and crap drivers) are as much as part of the sport as your Luadas, Piquets, Sennas and Schumachers. And I wouldn't have it any other way.

That being even more the case on this forum.

If Heikki wants a seat, he's gonna have to swallow his pride and try and find some help from backers. Yes, he's a good driver and yes, he's got nothing to prove.

But he's probably getting rather annoyed that he couldn't find a top seat and moreover, the seats in the mid-pack are rapidly being filled. Why would a midfield team want Kovalainen? He's a known quantity, and has been in the sport long enough to know the ins and outs of good technical feedback. He qualifies well, especially in 2011. His racepace is good, and the hunger to claim some points might be a turning point. However, with rumours of the likes of vdG and Pic claiming the Caterham seats, he might be a bit unsettled now. And instead of rising to the occasion, I sadly think that Kovy is perhaps wilting a bit, but at the same time has stagnated.

Heikki doesn't need another season at Caterham. I think for both sides, familiarity might be breeding contempt. He needs a midfield seat or a reserve role at a top team, and Caterham need a couple of, well, not exactly 'pay-drivers', but two pairs of hands with some good backing to help the team move forward. This would be best for both parties, I feel.

Now, some things I've picked up on (probably a case of 2+2=5 here, but bear with):

As mentioned, the rumours of vdG and Pic becoming Caterham's drivers are doing the rounds, and with good reason. Giedo's been doing FP1's recently (vital track time) and has some backers from the Netherlands (who'd love to see a Dutch driver on the grid), and Pic has money from Lagardère. Now, Lagardère have a stake in EADS who are an official partner of the Caterham team. A tenuous link, perhaps, but a link nonetheless.

If Pic goes to Caterham, Chilton's pretty much a shoo-in for the second Marussia seat as he's got the required backing sorted.

On Twitter, James Calado announced this:

@JamesCalado wrote:Really want to tell you guys..!! Waiting for the go ahead..!! #2013

Now, that could easily be an extension to his Lotus GP2 contract or a move to FR3.5. However, as he's been a standout performer and has earned great acclaim from many journos in racing circles could he get an F1 role somewhere? Possibly a reserve role at somewhere like Force India or Williams? Who knows?

well, Kovalainen also stated in 2009 he's not going to any of the bottom teams in any case......so we could still very well see a pay-Heikki next season

as for Pasta's post - I too do love having the Narain-calibre guys in underfunded teams - shame F1 has so limited spots that some of the ones who deserve to be in are out

What do you guys think? Does Edoardo Mortara have a real chance of landing a test, or maybe even full-time ride with a team for 2013? Maybe he could be "parked" at Caterham for next year.

Ferrarist wrote:What do you guys think? Does Edoardo Mortara have a real chance of landing a test, or maybe even full-time ride with a team for 2013? Maybe he could be "parked" at Caterham for next year.

I haven't really heard much of the guy. I won't know how good he is until the YDT.

(btw Ferrarist, check your PMs/F1RDS thread...)

BaconLettuceNinja wrote:

Ferrarist wrote:What do you guys think? Does Edoardo Mortara have a real chance of landing a test, or maybe even full-time ride with a team for 2013? Maybe he could be "parked" at Caterham for next year.

I haven't really heard much of the guy. I won't know how good he is until the YDT.

(btw Ferrarist, check your PMs/F1RDS thread...)

He won the Macau F3 race twice, the Formula 3 Euro Series in 2010, as well as racking up a couple of DTM victories for Audi.

Ferrarist wrote:

BaconLettuceNinja wrote:

Ferrarist wrote:What do you guys think? Does Edoardo Mortara have a real chance of landing a test, or maybe even full-time ride with a team for 2013? Maybe he could be "parked" at Caterham for next year.

I haven't really heard much of the guy. I won't know how good he is until the YDT.

(btw Ferrarist, check your PMs/F1RDS thread...)

He won the Macau F3 race twice, the Formula 3 Euro Series in 2010, as well as racking up a couple of DTM victories for Audi.

Sure he has the lap record there

Kovy looks like yet another better than Bottas driver that Williams could sign

eurobrun wrote:Kovy looks like yet another better than Bottas driver that Williams could sign

I'm still undecided about Bottas, I don't think we've seen the best of him. He kight turn out to be a surprise, like Maldonado.

Because this is the best way to install confidence in your new signing.

Although with Perez's recent races, I can see Whitmarsh's point...

Also, make of this what you will

East Londoner wrote:Because this is the best way to install confidence in your new signing.

Although with Perez's recent races, I can see Whitmarsh's point...

Also, make of this what you will

Does that mean Whitmarsh believes that Perez could end up being a classic case of Fisichellitis?

East Londoner wrote:Because this is the best way to install confidence in your new signing.

Although with Perez's recent races, I can see Whitmarsh's point...

Luca di Montezemolo does not look so silly now, does he?

Whitmarsh is a tool. Perez has had too many other good results for this current run of form to be anything other than a dip. Every driver has them, but it is vital that McLaren support him. I'm getting seriously fed up with the repeated self-important "Lewis will regret this". It's Lewis's life, he may never end up getting what he wants results wise at Mercedes but I can understand why he would feel the need to leave McLaren.