Grand Prix Rejects

Klon wrote:More than a year has passed, but it still feels like saying "Jenson Button - Formula 1 Driver's World Champion" is insulting to everyone who was this before him and everyone who will be this in the years to come. He's like the David Arquette of motorsport.

More deserving than everyone that had to use team orders to win it.

Klon wrote:More than a year has passed, but it still feels like saying "Jenson Button - Formula 1 Driver's World Champion" is insulting to everyone who was this before him and everyone who will be this in the years to come. He's like the David Arquette of motorsport.

You better ask Nigel Mansell to hand back his 1992 championship then, because it was even more clear that season that he had a car that made him unbeatable.

Cynon wrote:

Klon wrote:More than a year has passed, but it still feels like saying "Jenson Button - Formula 1 Driver's World Champion" is insulting to everyone who was this before him and everyone who will be this in the years to come. He's like the David Arquette of motorsport.

More deserving than everyone that had to use team orders to win it.

I can't remember who was the last one who won it on that basis. You can't really count Schumacher as he would have won it without his team using them anyway.

If you're talking about team orders on a broader sense, I could say that Button clearly had more support from his team.

F1000X wrote:

Klon wrote:More than a year has passed, but it still feels like saying "Jenson Button - Formula 1 Driver's World Champion" is insulting to everyone who was this before him and everyone who will be this in the years to come. He's like the David Arquette of motorsport.

You better ask Nigel Mansell to hand back his 1992 championship then, because it was even more clear that season that he had a car that made him unbeatable.

The thing is, most of the current drivers in Formula 1 are that far apart in terms of ultimate pace over a race distance, and it seems to be the case that people remember far more distinctly Button's poor qualifying performance, but forget about how he would often finish a lot further up the grid.
There was a recent chart that I saw which showed how many points a particular driver would have won if he had finished where he qualified - where Button was one of the only drivers who finished significantly ahead of where he started (instead of 214 points, the total would have been about 140 points if he always finished where he started). Now, part of that is down to the misfortunes of others, don't get me wrong, but very few drivers managed the same feat (one of the few others was Rosberg, and even then by nowhere as significant a margin), so I would say that Button is by no means a bad driver. In terms out outright pace, only sometimes can be beat or match Vettel, Alonso or Hamilton, but on the other hand he has generally shown himself to be a pretty solid tactician, and capable of beating others by out thinking them on track.

Besides, in reality talent rarely makes up for a performance difference on track - if a driver has a superior car, and is at least quicker than his team mate, normally they can take the title fairly easily. By that same logic, the real winner this year was the RB6, because, if we are honest, Hamilton, Alonso or Button would probably have been capable of winning the title this year if they had been in that car (Webber is a bit of an unresolved case - perhaps if he had not had Vettel as a team mate, he could have taken the title). Schumacher himself has said, on several occasions, that his success was not down to him alone - once, Clarkson cheekily asked him "Was it really the car?", and Schumacher said "Yes - without a good car, and a good team, you can't win", and for several years, Ferrari did have the car to beat (especially in 2002 and 2004).

So, all this ranting about it being "just the car" is tiresome - yes, it is mostly about the car, because of the nature of the sport. It always has been, as even the great drivers have usually had massively superior cars all the way through the history of the sport, and almost always will be.

And like, 4 of Schumacher's titles.


The thing about Button I don't like is that anytime before 2009, he was just an average driver, boring, not especially talented. Then with a dominant car in 2009 he wins the title, almost a no-contest until the 2nd half of the season, but Button was really just on for the ride (Rubens getting little support from the team), and then after he's looked on as one of the best drivers in the whole sport, when i'm pretty sure that if you were to put someone like, Sutil, Hulk, Kobayashi, Buemi, even Liuzzi(okay, maybe not, but close) in the same car, they would beat him.

Peter wrote:The thing about Button I don't like is that anytime before 2009, he was just an average driver, boring, not especially talented. Then with a dominant car in 2009 he wins the title, almost a no-contest until the 2nd half of the season, but Button was really just on for the ride (Rubens getting little support from the team), and then after he's looked on as one of the best drivers in the whole sport, when i'm pretty sure that if you were to put someone like, Sutil, Hulk, Kobayashi, Buemi, even Liuzzi(okay, maybe not, but close) in the same car, they would beat him.

The reason you probably think that is because Jenson Button was stuck with an absolute trainwreck of a car in 2007 and 2008. He has done well before, notably in 2004 where, had the Ferrari been less dominant/reliable, he would've probably won one or two races, and in 2006 where he outscored everyone else in the final 6 races. He is by no means the fastest driver out there, but I would say he is the most consistent and reliable driver. When he gets a car that suits him, he can be nigh unstoppable, as we saw in the first seven races of 2009. I can't see any of the drivers you listed, especially Buemi and Liuzzi, ever reeling off a set of races like that.

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:

Peter wrote:The thing about Button I don't like is that anytime before 2009, he was just an average driver, boring, not especially talented. Then with a dominant car in 2009 he wins the title, almost a no-contest until the 2nd half of the season, but Button was really just on for the ride (Rubens getting little support from the team), and then after he's looked on as one of the best drivers in the whole sport, when i'm pretty sure that if you were to put someone like, Sutil, Hulk, Kobayashi, Buemi, even Liuzzi(okay, maybe not, but close) in the same car, they would beat him.

The reason you probably think that is because Jenson Button was stuck with an absolute trainwreck of a car in 2007 and 2008. He has done well before, notably in 2004 where, had the Ferrari been less dominant/reliable, he would've probably won one or two races, and in 2006 where he outscored everyone else in the final 6 races. He is by no means the fastest driver out there, but I would say he is the most consistent and reliable driver. When he gets a car that suits him, he can be nigh unstoppable, as we saw in the first seven races of 2009. I can't see any of the drivers you listed, especially Buemi and Liuzzi, ever reeling off a set of races like that.

Buemi would still be getting lapped, and would crash into anyone who tried to lap him.

redbulljack14 wrote:

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:

Peter wrote:The thing about Button I don't like is that anytime before 2009, he was just an average driver, boring, not especially talented. Then with a dominant car in 2009 he wins the title, almost a no-contest until the 2nd half of the season, but Button was really just on for the ride (Rubens getting little support from the team), and then after he's looked on as one of the best drivers in the whole sport, when i'm pretty sure that if you were to put someone like, Sutil, Hulk, Kobayashi, Buemi, even Liuzzi(okay, maybe not, but close) in the same car, they would beat him.

The reason you probably think that is because Jenson Button was stuck with an absolute trainwreck of a car in 2007 and 2008. He has done well before, notably in 2004 where, had the Ferrari been less dominant/reliable, he would've probably won one or two races, and in 2006 where he outscored everyone else in the final 6 races. He is by no means the fastest driver out there, but I would say he is the most consistent and reliable driver. When he gets a car that suits him, he can be nigh unstoppable, as we saw in the first seven races of 2009. I can't see any of the drivers you listed, especially Buemi and Liuzzi, ever reeling off a set of races like that.

Buemi would still be getting lapped, and would crash into anyone who tried to lap him.

Maybe that's a tad mean. Yeah, Buemi has driven erratically in the last few races, but he's not so bad.

Peter wrote:

redbulljack14 wrote:Buemi would still be getting lapped, and would crash into anyone who tried to lap him.

Maybe that's a tad mean. Yeah, Buemi has driven erratically in the last few races, but he's not so bad.

It might be mean, but it's damn true. Buemi does not deserve a place on the 2011 grid.

Cynon wrote:

Klon wrote:More than a year has passed, but it still feels like saying "Jenson Button - Formula 1 Driver's World Champion" is insulting to everyone who was this before him and everyone who will be this in the years to come. He's like the David Arquette of motorsport.

More deserving than everyone that had to use team orders to win it.

Didn't Mario Andretti have an easy time because Lotus told Ronnie Peterson to stay back? You wouldn't call Mario Andretti an undeserving champion, would you? Or Juan Manuel Fangio, who won in 1956 because Peter Collins, who himself was in a position to win the title, accepted to share his car with Fangio.

I will repeat it as many times as it's necessary: team orders are part of the game. If you don't like, then stop watching F1. I just hope you don't belong to the 99% of the people that says team orders are bad because they heard it elsewhere.

Klon wrote:More than a year has passed, but it still feels like saying "Jenson Button - Formula 1 Driver's World Champion" is insulting to everyone who was this before him and everyone who will be this in the years to come. He's like the David Arquette of motorsport.

I'd say Jacques Villeneuve is the David Arquette of Motorsport.

Cynon wrote:

Peter wrote:

redbulljack14 wrote:Buemi would still be getting lapped, and would crash into anyone who tried to lap him.

Maybe that's a tad mean. Yeah, Buemi has driven erratically in the last few races, but he's not so bad.

It might be mean, but it's damn true. Buemi does not deserve a place on the 2011 grid.

So he made a few mistakes, or a bit more than a few. He still outscored his teammate. And i'm sure he will keep outscoring Alguersuari until he takes Webber's seat at Red Bull in 2013. Either him or Raikkonen.


Speaking of Raikkonen, has he finally given up writing off Citroens and decided to come back to F1? What a talent he was, but lacked motivation. I've got a solution!!!

Peter wrote:So he made a few mistakes, or a bit more than a few. He still outscored his teammate. And i'm sure he will keep outscoring Alguersuari until he takes Webber's seat at Red Bull in 2013.

If you look at it closely, you'll find out that Alguersuari's season was the most impressive, consistently outpacing and outracing Buemi in the second half of the season. Sébastien's progress seems to have stopped, while Jaime is still improving. I feel next season could show us a different picture.

Ferrim wrote:

Peter wrote:So he made a few mistakes, or a bit more than a few. He still outscored his teammate. And i'm sure he will keep outscoring Alguersuari until he takes Webber's seat at Red Bull in 2013.

If you look at it closely, you'll find out that Alguersuari's season was the most impressive, consistently outpacing and outracing Buemi in the second half of the season. Sébastien's progress seems to have stopped, while Jaime is still improving. I feel next season could show us a different picture.

BLASPHEMY!

I think Buemi is a great driver. And I think Alguersuari needs more time. And I think Toro Rosso means bull-shyte, but didn't everyone know that?

EDIT: Well, we'd better think of something to replace BS, as it went through the automated filters.

Bathplug is a perfect replacement, I even say that when I speak now...

JeremyMcClean wrote:
I think Buemi is a great driver. And I think Alguersuari needs more time. And I think Toro Rosso means bull-shyte, but didn't everyone know that?

I think Sebastian Buemi is pretty average. He's just another Adrian Sutil or Nick Heidfeld. I won't pass any judgement on Jaime Alguersuari yet.

Phoenix wrote:

JeremyMcClean wrote:
I think Buemi is a great driver. And I think Alguersuari needs more time. And I think Toro Rosso means bull-shyte, but didn't everyone know that?

I think Sebastian Buemi is pretty average. He's just another Ricardo Zonta or Christiano da Matta. I won't pass any judgement on Jaime Alguersuari yet.

Fixed, using the dictionary definitions of average.

Buemi hasn't caused enough first corner pileups to be a Cristiano da Matta, but he has caused enough dumb wrecks to set himself up to be a da Matta in the future. I feel the same way about Sutil.

Buemi is the modern day Alliot.
Webber is the modern day Alesi.
Barrichello is the modern day Berger.
Heidfeld is the modern day Amon. (In the sense that neither will ever win a Grand Prix)
Schumacher is the modern day Mansell. (Coming back whilst over 40 and being slow)

redbulljack14 wrote:Heidfeld is the modern day Amon.

so he's going to start his own team with an unnecessairy complicated chassis?

redbulljack14 wrote:Buemi is the modern day Alliot.
Webber is the modern day Alesi.
Barrichello is the modern day Berger.
Heidfeld is the modern day Amon. (In the sense that neither will ever win a Grand Prix)
Schumacher is the modern day Mansell. (Coming back whilst over 40 and being slow)

Vettel is the modern day de Chesaris (Incredibly fast but can't stop hitting anything that moves)

This wrote:

redbulljack14 wrote:Heidfeld is the modern day Amon.

so he's going to start his own team with an unnecessairy complicated chassis?

Villeneuve tried to start his own team, I don't see why not.

redbulljack14 wrote:Heidfeld is the modern day de Angelis (OK, Elio de Angelis won two races, but they're quite similar otherwise, giving priority to consistency above everything else).

By the way, when will anyone start a Christmas thread like last year?

redbulljack14 wrote: Yamamoto is the modern day Alliot.
Kovalainen is the modern day Alesi.
Barrichello is the modern day Berger.
Heidfeld is the modern day Amon. (In the sense that neither will ever win a Grand Prix)
Schumacher is the modern day Hill (Graham). (Over 40 and being slow)

Fixed.

James Hunt once said that that Alliot was "one of the worst Grand Prix drivers ever to drive a Grand Prix car."

Wizzie wrote:Vettel is the modern day de Chesaris (Incredibly fast but can't stop hitting anything that moves)

+5

I'd say Webber is the modern day Alesi due to being so popular amongst fans of all nationalities.

Damn Petrov and his Russian money. If it wasn't for that ,his ass would be in a bloody GP2 car now, and Sutil at Renault , or Lotus, whatever the hell it is.

Peter wrote:Damn Petrov and his Russian money. If it wasn't for that ,his ass would be in a bloody GP2 car now, and Sutil at Renault , or Lotus, whatever the hell it is.

Who cares right now? Vitaly Petrov has proved that he is a very capable F1 driver, especially if he can improve his consistency, and a very exciting one as well.

Phoenix wrote:

Peter wrote:Damn Petrov and his Russian money. If it wasn't for that ,his ass would be in a bloody GP2 car now, and Sutil at Renault , or Lotus, whatever the hell it is.

Who cares right now? Vitaly Petrov has proved that he is a very capable F1 driver, especially if he can improve his consistency, and a very exciting one as well.

I agree, a hell of a lot more exciting than Sutil at least! Between he and Petrov, I know who I would rather see at Lotus-Renault next year. Besides, Sutil seems happy enough at Force India, and he himself suggested that a move to Renault would be more of a sidestep than anything, providing Force India make a similar step forward next season as they did last season.

Bernie, your a bathplug idiot. REALLY, YOU CHOSE PHOENIX OVER LAGUNA SECA IN 1990? GREAT DECISION THAT WAS.

Peter wrote:Damn Petrov and his Russian money. If it wasn't for that ,his ass would be in a bloody GP2 car now, and Sutil at Renault , or Lotus, whatever the hell it is.

I'd rather have Petrov and Kobayashi, who show promising speed and overtaking ability, than Sutil and Liuzzi, who have proven themselves capable of making rookie mistakes as veterans. Granted, Liuzzi has some excuse since he was out of F1 for awhile... but Sutil has been hugely overrated since he drove up to 4th in Monaco and got taken out by Kimi Raikkonen.

Cynon wrote:...but Sutil has been hugely overrated since he drove up to 4th in Monaco and got taken out by Kimi Raikkonen.

+9000

F1000X wrote:Bernie, your a bathplug idiot. REALLY, YOU CHOSE PHOENIX OVER LAGUNA SECA IN 1990? GREAT DECISION THAT WAS.

In all fairness, I actually liked Phoenix, but they could have had Laguna Seca in 1992 after Phoenix was off the calendar.

Can I just ask why bathplug is in loads of posts?

Or is it... bathplug.

Ok. I see.

I have a rant though - I'm getting fed up of the F1 expansion in the East. I could bring up Orientalism arguments, but that's just me.

Bathplug is addicting, I always use bathplug if I'm going to swear on english now

TomPryce wrote:Can I just ask why bathplug is in loads of posts?

Or is it... bathplug.

Ok. I see.

I have a rant though - I'm getting fed up of the F1 expansion in the East. I could bring up Orientalism arguments, but that's just me.

Same here, the only recent Asian circuit that I like is Sepang, if that even counts as recent anymore.

TomPryce wrote:Can I just ask why bathplug is in loads of posts?

Or is it... bathplug.

Ok. I see.

I have a rant though - I'm getting fed up of the F1 expansion in the East. I could bring up Orientalism arguments, but that's just me.

It's the f-bomb. And it's the f-bomb because this is a family-friendly forum.

redbulljack14 wrote: In all fairness, I actually liked Phoenix, but they could have had Laguna Seca in 1992 after Phoenix was off the calendar.

Phoenix had two big problems, the poor attendance, and the track was just eating cars. All 3 races had less that 13 finishers IIRC. The track wasn't even that bad for a street circuit (thanks to the wide 4 lane city roads), but it was tearing cars up.

F1000X wrote:...and the track was just eating cars. All 3 races had less that 13 finishers IIRC. The track wasn't even that bad for a street circuit (thanks to the wide 4 lane city roads), but it was tearing cars up.

Guys... I think we have found a solution to the general super-reliabilty among the current generation of F1 cars.

Wizzie wrote:

F1000X wrote:...and the track was just eating cars. All 3 races had less that 13 finishers IIRC. The track wasn't even that bad for a street circuit (thanks to the wide 4 lane city roads), but it was tearing cars up.

Guys... I think we have found a solution to the general super-reliabilty among the current generation of F1 cars.

Yes, it's called railroad tracks in the middle of the racetrack.

Cynon wrote:

Wizzie wrote:

F1000X wrote:...and the track was just eating cars. All 3 races had less that 13 finishers IIRC. The track wasn't even that bad for a street circuit (thanks to the wide 4 lane city roads), but it was tearing cars up.

Guys... I think we have found a solution to the general super-reliabilty among the current generation of F1 cars.

Yes, it's called railroad tracks in the middle of the racetrack.

Or more electric trains running underground as Mark Webber's Red Bull is passing above it...