The HRT thread

[cbbcisace]

I still think they should have tried harder to avoid the TMG deal collapsing last year. I bet a 3rd generation TF110 will be better than the box of crap they inevitably churn out three races into the season

Your probably right, but and it's a big but Toyota wanted near to €50 million euros for 3 chassis and spare parts.

That's a lot of money for anyone....

[mario]

I believe it not to be the case that HRT are using this years monocoque for next years car. It will be a clean sheet design from what I hear due to HRT having a design team in place. Maybe HRT are waiting for the FIA to come back to them re using the Renault engines.

I guess that with HRT being somewhat vague about their suppliers - it took a lot of searching to find out who manufactured their chassis last year (Carbotech Gmbh IIRC), and by their own admission the F111's monocoque was heavily based on the F110 because they were behind schedule and needed to get through the crash tests last year.

As I said, though, it is thought that they may be using this years car as a base - at the moment it is not entirely clear what exactly is going on with the design of the F112, especially following the reorganisation of their technical staff and Eeckelaert being promoted from head of aerodynamics to chief technical officer. It could well be that the team has chosen to strike out in a new direction for 2011, not just in terms of chassis design but also engine supplies (switching from Cosworth to Renault if there is any credence in the rumours - though given that they will be using Williams's 2011 gearbox in 2012 it'd be more convenient for them to retain the Cosworth engine package than having to modify the gearbox for the Renault engine).
Either way, if they are hoping to take part in testing in 2012 they will need to have the car ready a lot sooner than they've managed in the past, particularly because of the requirement for crash testing to take place before the car can test. I think the reason why some are speculating HRT will re-use part of the design philosophy of the current car, and maybe some parts, is because of the additional crash test requirements - starting from a design which is known to work may be a lot easier than working on a new design from scratch.

[S951]

I think if HRT paid 50million it would of been well worth it as it would of got them 10th in the wcc for 10 & 11, yes I am thinking tmg would of developed it for this year aswell would of been possible to do williams for 9th considering how awful they where.

All ifs and buts really would of been good to see it race

[Ferrim]

I find so amusing that HRT want to distance themselves from Hispania, yet they keep the same acronym, the same web design and the same domain, hispaniaracing.com.

[cbbcisace]

I find so amusing that HRT want to distance themselves from Hispania, yet they keep the same acronym, the same web design and the same domain, hispaniaracing.com.

I have asked HRT if they are changing the website and they told me they are.

[cbbcisace]

I believe it not to be the case that HRT are using this years monocoque for next years car. It will be a clean sheet design from what I hear due to HRT having a design team in place. Maybe HRT are waiting for the FIA to come back to them re using the Renault engines.

I guess that with HRT being somewhat vague about their suppliers - it took a lot of searching to find out who manufactured their chassis last year (Carbotech Gmbh IIRC), and by their own admission the F111's monocoque was heavily based on the F110 because they were behind schedule and needed to get through the crash tests last year.

As I said, though, it is thought that they may be using this years car as a base - at the moment it is not entirely clear what exactly is going on with the design of the F112, especially following the reorganisation of their technical staff and Eeckelaert being promoted from head of aerodynamics to chief technical officer. It could well be that the team has chosen to strike out in a new direction for 2011, not just in terms of chassis design but also engine supplies (switching from Cosworth to Renault if there is any credence in the rumours - though given that they will be using Williams's 2011 gearbox in 2012 it'd be more convenient for them to retain the Cosworth engine package than having to modify the gearbox for the Renault engine).
Either way, if they are hoping to take part in testing in 2012 they will need to have the car ready a lot sooner than they've managed in the past, particularly because of the requirement for crash testing to take place before the car can test. I think the reason why some are speculating HRT will re-use part of the design philosophy of the current car, and maybe some parts, is because of the additional crash test requirements - starting from a design which is known to work may be a lot easier than working on a new design from scratch.

Couple of things Mario

- HRT are using the 2012 gearbox and KERS from Williams for the F112.
- The design of the F112 started around the Belgian GP - Geoff Willis was on the BBC Practice Session (FP2) to say the 2012 was in process, now the car is being designed by Stephane Chosse and Jose Segura Galleo it is believed it is a new design because HRT are working within normal timeframes.

Question from the Jacky Eeckelart Interview on the HRT website:-

Is there already a design for the F112?
Of course there is. The model of the car exists but it is still in evolution regarding aero bits: front wing, rear wing, barge boards, floor, diffusers…they’re still in evolution. The monocoque and nose are fixed but the purely aero elements can be built in 3-4 weeks so we can wait until end of December for them. There is a model but the final product will be seen towards the end of December.

What parts of the F111 will be used on the F112?
Probably only the steering wheel and even that will be slightly modified because of the KERS, because we need an extra function on the steering wheel for it.

What are the main characteristics of the 2012 car and what will change with respect to this year’s model?
The main area on which we have worked is the downforce of the car because there is big deficit in comparison to a standard F1 car. Downforce is what pushes the car to the track, increases the grip of the tyres, makes the car brake later, go faster through corners, etc. The biggest performance deficit is from aero and that is what we’re working on. We have also made changes to the monocoque such as making it higher in the front and narrower in the rear. We will also work on adapting the rear suspension to the Pirelli tyres, in order to achieve better balance between low speed and high speed corners.

Will the F112 use Williams’ 2011 gearbox with such a low differential? Or will it continue to use the 2010 gearbox?
We will use the Williams 2012 gearbox but adapted to the Cosworth engine because in 2012 Williams will use a Renault engine.

[Minardi Man]

Huh, you'd have thought they'd be trying for the Renault engines then.

[mario]

cbbcisace, I stand corrected and somewhat humbled by your reply - I was under the mistaken impression that HRT would be receiving the previous model of Williams's gearbox for 2012 given that sort of deal is reasonably common amongst the F1 world (see Caterham receiving the RB5 specification gearbox for this years car). As for the development of the F112, I guess that time will tell how exactly that turns out - I certainly would like to see HRT actually taking part in a pre-season test for once, given that MVR and Caterham have managed to do that (with the latter racking up a comparable amount of mileage with the midfield teams this year).

[cbbcisace]

Mario, sorry wasn't trying to be funny, you have a better knowing of things than me.

I think it is good in the F1 world to see HRT get the latest spec gearbox and KERS system from Williams.

I mean if HRT can be at testing, it looks good for them, the first 2 seasons they don't show up and still finish above Marussia/Virgin and finish around 1.5 seconds behind Team Lotus at Brazil.

What I am genuinely concern about it that HRT will pick a dud 2nd driver, they need a "good" talent i.e Dani Clos, Petrov, Vergne or Ricciardo to keep they team in shape, look how Ricciardo was in the 2nd half of the season, instead of Narain and in 2010 Klien beating the whole lot.

If HRT want to move forward next year(and I hope they do - i'm a big fan) they need to keep the driver lineup complete for the whole year, this is my lineup for next year:-

22. Pedro de la Rosa
23. Vitaly Petrov
T/R Driver: - Dani Clos (he states he will get some funding to be T/R Driver for 2012, Race Driver for 2013)

There was rumours of Jose Maria Lopez for the 2nd HRT seat recently.

[Pointrox]

Petrov and van der Garde as the main contenders for the second seat at HRT
Fair enough. Both have some experience (albeit Petrov has much more) and enough money to please the budget.

[cbbcisace]

Petrov and van der Garde as the main contenders for the second seat at HRT
Fair enough. Both have some experience (albeit Petrov has much more) and enough money to please the budget.

Not a surprise, I think Giedo will get the driver as Agag (Barwa Addax TP) has some say in HRT now.

[S951]

discounting the drivers that haven't got f1 experience who do we have as contenders with experience? petrov, rubens, liuzzi who else we got out there?

[Jack O Melley]

discounting the drivers that haven't got f1 experience who do we have as contenders with experience? petrov, rubens, liuzzi who else we got out there?

You forgot Badoer.

[S951]

I would love Luca to get back in (see sig ) but would need to raise 5-8million to get him in lol

[DanielPT]

discounting the drivers that haven't got f1 experience who do we have as contenders with experience? petrov, rubens, liuzzi who else we got out there?

Looking at the drivers who were/risk being left off next season, the second HRT seat is an increasingly coveted one, which is, in itself, amazing!

[Faustus]

Petrov and van der Garde as the main contenders for the second seat at HRT
Fair enough. Both have some experience (albeit Petrov has much more) and enough money to please the budget.

I've heard from a reliable source that Petrov doesn't actually have that much money and never had, his contribution to the team's budget relied mostly on his guests from Russian companies being introduced to other businessmen in the Paddock Club and Renault's hospitality and Boullier's mob picking up a percentage fee from any deals that were done. Joe Saward mentioned something about this before as well.

[Ataxia]

Jaime Alguersuari?

[cbbcisace]

Its got to be hasn't it?

Jamie as 2nd driver and Dani Clos as Reserve Driver. - both bringing backing.

[S951]

dj squire really? then again if he gets the boot he doesn't really have many other places to go williams, hrt and that's about it. Would be good for the all spanish image but we saw what happened at super aguri with an all japanese line up sato was alright but the legend that is ide was not then they had the mighty sakon

[cbbcisace]

different class of driver though isn't it?

de la rosa and alguesuari would be the perfect youth and experience lineup.

[S951]

i'm pretty gutted for Jaime if I am honest cbbcisace he improved and drove so well this year, I sent him my condolences on twitter anyway

[Pointrox]

So, for now the list of probable drivers looks like this.
Random order.

Spaniards
Dani Clos
2011: GP2 (9TH)
Clos was already confirmed as HRT employee, but no one really knows what it is.
Javier Villa
2011: WORLD TOURING CAR CHAMPIONSHIP (12TH)
Javier was once linked with HRT. Possibly still looks for a drive in F1.
Jaime Alguersuari
2011: FORMULA ONE, SCUDERIA TORO ROSSO (14TH)
STR apparently didn't care much about his performance throughout 2011 and ruthlessly left him with no drive. Maybe HRT will appreciate his efforts... and money.



South Americans
Lucas di Grassi
2011: PIRELLI TEST DRIVER
After his 2010 failure with Virgin Racing, di Grassi definitely will want to have another go.

Nelson Piquet Jr.
2011: NASCAR CAMPING WORLD TRUCK SERIES (10TH)
He was once "signed" by HRT (then Campos Meta 1), but it turned out to be a hoax for a Spanish Día de los Santos Innocentes (something like April Fool's Day). Maybe this time he will be signed for real?

José María López
2011: TC 2000 (5TH)
Pechito seems to be more into tin-tops lately, but he would love to try his luck once again after that failure of a USF1.



The rest
Vitantonio Liuzzi
2011: FORMULA ONE, HRT (23RD)
He seems to be pretty confident about his 2012 drive but hey, Jaime and Sebastien also were sure that one of them will keep his seat at STR

Josef Král
2011: GP2 (15TH)
Was test driving for HRT last year.

Davide Valsecchi
2011: GP2 (8TH)
Was test driving for HRT last year.

Jan Charouz
2011: TEST DRIVER FOR RENAULT AND HRT, LE MANS
Were test driving for HRT this year. Charouz went as far as being their Friday test driver on Interlagos.

Nathanael Berthon
2011: GP2 ASIA (23RD), FORMULA RENAULT 3.5 (13TH)
Was test driving for HRT last year.

Vitaly Petrov
2011: FORMULA ONE, LOTUS RENAULT GP (10TH)
Petrov was supposedly signed for the next season as well, but since Bouiller announced both drivers for 2012, Vitya is free to go. He supposedly has 10 million euros to spend.

Giedo van der Garde
2011: GP2 (5TH)
He's also a wealthy chap - Giedo is backed by McGregor fashion group and his father-in-law is a Dutch investor Marcel Boekhoorn.

Sebastien Buemi
2011: FORMULA ONE, SCUDERIA TORO ROSSO (15TH)
After Jaime gave Buemi a run for his money it became apparent that he might be replaced. But since both drivers have been sacked, he and Jaime once again are contending for a seat.

[S951]

well can add JAime to that list for the south americans what about that lopez bloke?

[Ataxia]

In the spaniards section, Alguersuari is down as di Grassi...

[Pointrox]

In the spaniards section, Alguersuari is down as di Grassi...

Oops!
Fixed that - thanks

[Phoenix]

So, for now the list of probable drivers looks like this.
Random order.

Spaniards
Dani Clos
2011: GP2 (9TH)
Clos was already confirmed as HRT employee, but no one really knows what it is.
Javier Villa
2011: WORLD TOURING CAR CHAMPIONSHIP (12TH)
Javier was once linked with HRT. Possibly still looks for a drive in F1.
Jaime Alguersuari
2011: FORMULA ONE, SCUDERIA TORO ROSSO (14TH)
STR apparently didn't care much about his performance throughout 2011 and ruthlessly left him with no drive. Maybe HRT will appreciate his efforts... and money.



South Americans
Lucas di Grassi
2011: PIRELLI TEST DRIVER
After his 2010 failure with Virgin Racing, di Grassi definitely will want to have another go.

Nelson Piquet Jr.
2011: NASCAR CAMPING WORLD TRUCK SERIES (10TH)
He was once "signed" by HRT (then Campos Meta 1), but it turned out to be a hoax for a Spanish Día de los Santos Innocentes (something like April Fool's Day). Maybe this time he will be signed for real?

José María López
2011: TC 2000 (5TH)
Pechito seems to be more into tin-tops lately, but he would love to try his luck once again after that failure of a USF1.



The rest
Vitantonio Liuzzi
2011: FORMULA ONE, HRT (23RD)
He seems to be pretty confident about his 2012 drive but hey, Jaime and Sebastien also were sure that one of them will keep his seat at STR

Josef Král
2011: GP2 (15TH)
Was test driving for HRT last year.

Davide Valsecchi
2011: GP2 (8TH)
Was test driving for HRT last year.

Jan Charouz
2011: TEST DRIVER FOR RENAULT AND HRT, LE MANS
Were test driving for HRT this year. Charouz went as far as being their Friday test driver on Interlagos.

Nathanael Berthon
2011: GP2 ASIA (23RD), FORMULA RENAULT 3.5 (13TH)
Was test driving for HRT last year.

Vitaly Petrov
2011: FORMULA ONE, LOTUS RENAULT GP (10TH)
Petrov was supposedly signed for the next season as well, but since Bouiller announced both drivers for 2012, Vitya is free to go. He supposedly has 10 million euros to spend.

Giedo van der Garde
2011: GP2 (5TH)
He's also a wealthy chap - Giedo is backed by McGregor fashion group and his father-in-law is a Dutch investor Marcel Boekhoorn.

Sebastien Buemi
2011: FORMULA ONE, SCUDERIA TORO ROSSO (15TH)
After Jaime gave Buemi a run for his money it became apparent that he might be replaced. But since both drivers have been sacked, he and Jaime once again are contending for a seat.

Of those, the only ones that have realistic possibilities IMO are Alguersuari, Liuzzi, Petrov and van der Garde.

[Aerond]

I don´t know if Jaime has real chances of getting the HRT seat, since they´ll look for someone with money, and Alguersuari doesn´t have any unless he convinces Cepsa to part ways with STR and follow him to an all-spanish effort. If not, I guess we´re gonna suffer a new techno album.

I think Petrov will probably go to Williams but, if HRT can convince the Russian to drive the car, then HRT is going to be an interesting outfit next year with money, an angry young driver, and an experienced veteran who knows how to develop a car and a team. I´m intrigued to see where Alguersuari will head now, though.

[Peter]

I think if HRT paid 50million it would of been well worth it as it would of got them 10th in the wcc for 10 & 11, yes I am thinking tmg would of developed it for this year aswell would of been possible to do williams for 9th considering how awful they where.

All ifs and buts really would of been good to see it race

The Toyota TF110 was a car built around the Double Diffuser, which was banned for this year. Not only that, but it was built to fit a Toyota Engine and Toyota Gearbox, and nothing else. Do you have any idea how much modifications they would have to have done to the car, just to get a Cosworth engine and Wiliams gearbox to fit properly in the car? They may have had to completely redesign the rear end of the car, which would have certainly had a negative effect on performance. Plus it would have to lose a lot of downforce, because they would have to take the double diffuser off of the car.

They'd be out of money, and have a car with little performance left in it, and an engine and gearbox that wouldn't fit.

[TomWazzleshaw]

I think if HRT paid 50million it would of been well worth it as it would of got them 10th in the wcc for 10 & 11, yes I am thinking tmg would of developed it for this year aswell would of been possible to do williams for 9th considering how awful they where.

All ifs and buts really would of been good to see it race

The Toyota TF110 was a car built around the Double Diffuser, which was banned for this year. Not only that, but it was built to fit a Toyota Engine and Toyota Gearbox, and nothing else. Do you have any idea how much modifications they would have to have done to the car, just to get a Cosworth engine and Wiliams gearbox to fit properly in the car? They may have had to completely redesign the rear end of the car, which would have certainly had a negative effect on performance. Plus it would have to lose a lot of downforce, because they would have to take the double diffuser off of the car.

They'd be out of money, and have a car with little performance left in it, and an engine and gearbox that wouldn't fit.

The redesign work for the engine and gearbox, whilst still major, wouldn't be as big as it used to be as from memory, many of the components and the location of them have been standardised as part of the drive to keep the costs down. That being said, Brawn did have problems with installing the Mercedes engine as the oil sump was located in a different area to the Honda engine they would have used otherwise. Speaking of which, why didn't Honda just give Brawn a few spare engine to use for the year along with the car?

[Peter]

I think if HRT paid 50million it would of been well worth it as it would of got them 10th in the wcc for 10 & 11, yes I am thinking tmg would of developed it for this year aswell would of been possible to do williams for 9th considering how awful they where.

All ifs and buts really would of been good to see it race

The Toyota TF110 was a car built around the Double Diffuser, which was banned for this year. Not only that, but it was built to fit a Toyota Engine and Toyota Gearbox, and nothing else. Do you have any idea how much modifications they would have to have done to the car, just to get a Cosworth engine and Wiliams gearbox to fit properly in the car? They may have had to completely redesign the rear end of the car, which would have certainly had a negative effect on performance. Plus it would have to lose a lot of downforce, because they would have to take the double diffuser off of the car.

They'd be out of money, and have a car with little performance left in it, and an engine and gearbox that wouldn't fit.

The redesign work for the engine and gearbox, whilst still major, wouldn't be as big as it used to be as from memory, many of the components and the location of them have been standardised as part of the drive to keep the costs down. That being said, Brawn did have problems with installing the Mercedes engine as the oil sump was located in a different area to the Honda engine they would have used otherwise. Speaking of which, why didn't Honda just give Brawn a few spare engine to use for the year along with the car?

Honda withdrew completely, as a team and as an engine supplier. Plus, I think Ross wanted a more competitive engine, he was thinking smart for 2009. Better to spend some money for what was a relatively minor redesign, than not and have a useless car. Not that a Honda engine would make the BGP-01 useless, but it would have affected performance and reliability. Aside from a gearbox failure Barrichello had, the car was arguably the most relaible one in 200, thanks to the well built Mercedes engine it had, which, unlike the Honda engine, also had the most power.

[S951]

tf110 would of been fine in 2010 with ddd iirc williams did the gearbox casings for toyota so that would of been an easy solution. I still think despite all the changes needed it would of been faster than the lump that was the f110, f111 though if they had the money for a bit more development would of been better but you only have to look at the base they started with

[Peter]

tf110 would of been fine in 2010 with ddd iirc williams did the gearbox casings for toyota so that would of been an easy solution. I still think despite all the changes needed it would of been faster than the lump that was the f110, f111 though if they had the money for a bit more development would of been better but you only have to look at the base they started with

Yes, the F110 was a lump, but only because the design was constantly started and stopped due to failure of Campos to pay funding. I look at the F110 today, and see a car that was designed by someone who knew what they were doing. It has the front wing from a Red bull RB5 for Goodness sake, but that's about it.

When I first saw the F11, I noticed the fin, which was what Red Bull also had at the time, and again, I thought, someone there knows what they are doing. Apart from the fromtwing flaps being completely straight and featureless, it looked like a pretty fair design.

Like I said before, the TF110 was built around the DDD. F1 cars aren't made of Lego bricks. You can't just subtract pieces and expect the car to not be hugely affected. Especially the diffuser, which is where most of the car's downforce is produced nowadays.

[cbbcisace]

New Team Personnel:-

Business Development Director - Óscar Leyva

Team Manager - Carlos Nunes

[Jeroen Krautmeir]

Q&A with our good reject friend

[Mister Fungus]

I have a bad feeling HRT will fold before the start of the season, or more optimistically during. I mean they barely got to the grid this season when the team was stable, so I can't imagine how it will be next year with all the restructuring and without Dr. Kolles last minute magic.

[cbbcisace]

Right - We need Colin Kolles to go to Red Bull - he can sprinkle more magic on them!

HRT will not fold - they still have experienced members in the team.

[solarcold]

Just for you to know - Vitaly is never shortened to "Vitya" ^_^
Victor -> Vitya
Vitaly -> Vitalik

[Mister Fungus]

Vitaly -> Vitalik

Shortening with more letters?

[mario]

Right - We need Colin Kolles to go to Red Bull - he can sprinkle more magic on them!

HRT will not fold - they still have experienced members in the team.

They might not fold, but by their own admission the changes that they are making to the team right now - the relocation of most of their facilities and workforce to Valencia, shifting a number of senior staff from one post to another whilst replacing Kolles with Perez-Sala and uncertainty over their driver line up - has had a detrimental impact on the development of the 2012 car.
In fact, Perez-Sala has said that HRT will probably fall back from where they currently are at the start of the 2012 season due to the various changes the team are going through right now, which might be a problem given that their main rivals - Caterham and Marussia - haven't been standing still during the off season.

"The task ahead of us, with the design of the car and change of headquarters, is huge," he said. "Formula 1 is very complicated and implies a lot of preparation work, so, in this respect, HRT is a little bit behind other teams.
"We will feel the effects of this transformation the team is going through and will have to pay for it at the start of the season. We're not going to be at the same level as when we finished this past season, where the same team had been running for two years, but we're aware of that.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96789

[Pointrox]

Vitaly -> Vitalik

Shortening with more letters?

Vitalik is more of a diminutive form I think