Grand Prix Rejects

GwilymJJames wrote:Something else has also happened.

Charles Pic has today been announced as one of Caterham F1 Team's race drivers for the 2013 season and beyond.
The talented French driver joins the Anglo/Malaysian team on a multi-year contract after impressing in his first season in the Formula 1 World Championship.

Good for Charles Pic. This is the end of Heikki in F1 though, sadly.

Wurz as a team principal, hell to the yes please.

Why is it all my favourite drivers aren't getting seats?

eurobrun wrote:Wow, I did not expect that. Hopefully Heikki will find a seat higher up now as Petrov is rich

The rumours at the moment aren't all that positive for Heikki - there is a strong suspicion that Caterham will need to take on a second pay driver to balance their books for 2013 if they cannot recover 10th in the WCC from Marussia, and there are only a handful of seats available for 2013 at this point. With Lotus expected to retain Grosjean and Mallya possibly looking to bring Sutil back to Force India, about the only seat available for Heikki outside of Caterham will be Pic's seat at Marussia (which Chilton is probably likely to get).

mario wrote:

eurobrun wrote:Wow, I did not expect that. Hopefully Heikki will find a seat higher up now as Petrov is rich

The rumours at the moment aren't all that positive for Heikki - there is a strong suspicion that Caterham will need to take on a second pay driver to balance their books for 2013 if they cannot recover 10th in the WCC from Marussia, and there are only a handful of seats available for 2013 at this point. With Lotus expected to retain Grosjean and Mallya possibly looking to bring Sutil back to Force India, about the only seat available for Heikki outside of Caterham will be Pic's seat at Marussia (which Chilton is probably likely to get).

The problem for Heikki though is that, from the press, I've got the feeling that Cyril Abiteboul doesn't support him as much as Fernandes did. I think Abiteboul want completely new guys in for next season. Although, he might retain Petrov because of the Russian factor.

GwilymJJames wrote:Yep. It's happened

The Sauber F1 Team has finalised its line-up for the 2013 season: Esteban Gutiérrez is confirmed as the team’s second race driver. The 21-year old Mexican will be driving alongside Nico Hülkenberg (GER). Robin Frijns, from the Netherlands, who is only two days younger than Esteban, has been taken on board as the team’s test and reserve driver.

So I PARTIALLY got my signature wish then...

Great news for Monsieur Pic too, I was hoping he'd get that Caterham seat. I'd imagine that van der Garde would take the other one...

Jocke1 wrote:

GwilymJJames wrote:Something else has also happened.

Charles Pic has today been announced as one of Caterham F1 Team's race drivers for the 2013 season and beyond.
The talented French driver joins the Anglo/Malaysian team on a multi-year contract after impressing in his first season in the Formula 1 World Championship.

I'm not laughing, he has impressed. Been on the pace every weekend, making Glock look ordinary (by Glock's standards) and taken the fight right to Caterham. I'm delighted for him, although a little bit of me thinks it's a backwards move, considering Marussia will be a little stronger next year thanks to their 10th place finish.

I think Pic going to Caterham is a sideways move performance-wise, as I expect Marussia and Caterham to be on the same level next year. But on the long term, Caterham seems far more stable, as they don't have financial trouble like Marussia. Despite getting the 10th place in the constructors' championship, Marussia still have huge debts, and are in need for a pay driver, which is expected to be Max Chilton. On the other hand, they want to keep Glock. So there wouldn't have been any space at Marussia 2013 for Pic. So, going to Caterham was the best thing he could do at the moment. If he continues in his performance next year, he could be a candidate for a midfield team in 2014.

Well, congratulations to Pic for being able to be the first Marussia driver that manages to last more than a season! But I think if Caterham indeed is in the need of hiring van der Garde next year, they will be in trouble regarding car development and results, because they will have a line-up that amounts for the grand total of three full F1 seasons. I hope they hang onto Kovalainen, they will not regret it in the future.

A better thread title would have been: Caterham Pics a driver for 2013.

Well, that's another seat filled up. I think Caterham will want to keep either Kovalainen or Petrov; it'll most likely come down to Petrov's sponsors and how reliable they've been, since in terms of performance there's been little to choose between them. If I were the boss there, I'd hang on to Petrov - there's bound to be some payoff with having a Russian driver on the books when the Russian GP rolls around.

James Allen just said on BBC red button that Adrian Sutil is slightly ahead of Alguersuari's for the force India seat. As much as I like Sutil, I can't help but think him going back to force India might be a bit silly. I know he knows the team very well, and obviously gets on pretty well with them all, but he was dropped mainly for his nightclub incident, so re-signing for them seems a bit weird.

AdrianSutil wrote:James Allen just said on BBC red button that Adrian Sutil is slightly ahead of Alguersuari's for the force India seat. As much as I like Sutil, I can't help but think him going back to force India might be a bit silly. I know he knows the team very well, and obviously gets on pretty well with them all, but he was dropped mainly for his nightclub incident, so re-signing for them seems a bit weird.

It seems to be the team that is going after him rather than the other way around - at least, that seems to be the implication of the comments that Mallya has made in recent weeks - and we know that he is unlikely to get a better offer anyway given that the grid is mostly sorted for 2013. An odd choice, perhaps, but Sutil does have a small amount of personal sponsorship and is an experienced driver, and Force India probably would prefer to pair up two reasonably experienced drivers and hope to profit where other midfield teams flounder rather than take a risk on a promising but raw recruit.

mario wrote:

AdrianSutil wrote:James Allen just said on BBC red button that Adrian Sutil is slightly ahead of Alguersuari's for the force India seat. As much as I like Sutil, I can't help but think him going back to force India might be a bit silly. I know he knows the team very well, and obviously gets on pretty well with them all, but he was dropped mainly for his nightclub incident, so re-signing for them seems a bit weird.

It seems to be the team that is going after him rather than the other way around - at least, that seems to be the implication of the comments that Mallya has made in recent weeks - and we know that he is unlikely to get a better offer anyway given that the grid is mostly sorted for 2013. An odd choice, perhaps, but Sutil does have a small amount of personal sponsorship and is an experienced driver, and Force India probably would prefer to pair up two reasonably experienced drivers and hope to profit where other midfield teams flounder rather than take a risk on a promising but raw recruit.

The only reason for choosing Sutil rather than Alguersuari, in my view, is cash. From the sporting point of view, they know that Di Resta is better than Sutil for sure and pretty much everyone else knows that, so it makes no real sense. What no one knows is what is Jaime capable of doing. I think he is quite fast and perhaps might get the better of Di Resta. I am usually fond of journeyman in F1 but Sutil has had his chances at FI.

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:Well, that's another seat filled up. I think Caterham will want to keep either Kovalainen or Petrov; it'll most likely come down to Petrov's sponsors and how reliable they've been, since in terms of performance there's been little to choose between them. If I were the boss there, I'd hang on to Petrov - there's bound to be some payoff with having a Russian driver on the books when the Russian GP rolls around.

Hear, hear.

I want to see him back in F1 don't get me wrong, but at force India? I suppose the only other seats are Caterham, Marussia (but it looks like Chilton will get that one) and HRT (who may be closing soon anyway). He brings sponsorship from a few small German companies. And I think Medion are still with him but not 100% certain.

Phoenix wrote:Well, congratulations to Pic for being able to be the first Marussia driver that manages to last more than a season! But I think if Caterham indeed is in the need of hiring van der Garde next year, they will be in trouble regarding car development and results, because they will have a line-up that amounts for the grand total of three full F1 seasons. I hope they hang onto Kovalainen, they will not regret it in the future.

Timo Glock says hi!

But I don't understand...Charles Pic has one year and van der Garde has none. How does that add up to three? And what happened to Petrov?

kostas22 wrote:

Phoenix wrote:Well, congratulations to Pic for being able to be the first Marussia driver that manages to last more than a season! But I think if Caterham indeed is in the need of hiring van der Garde next year, they will be in trouble regarding car development and results, because they will have a line-up that amounts for the grand total of three full F1 seasons. I hope they hang onto Kovalainen, they will not regret it in the future.

Timo Glock says hi!

But I don't understand...Charles Pic has one year and van der Garde has none. How does that add up to three? And what happened to Petrov?

Apologies, I am extremely tired today and it's showing on what I write

I meant this is the first Marussia second driver that manages to last for more than a season. And you're right on the other front. The total experience combined would be only two years, which is not too good for a team that is still stranded at the bottom of the grid. As for Petrov, I wouldn't be too optimistic about him.

Phoenix wrote:

kostas22 wrote:

Phoenix wrote:Well, congratulations to Pic for being able to be the first Marussia driver that manages to last more than a season! But I think if Caterham indeed is in the need of hiring van der Garde next year, they will be in trouble regarding car development and results, because they will have a line-up that amounts for the grand total of three full F1 seasons. I hope they hang onto Kovalainen, they will not regret it in the future.

Timo Glock says hi!

But I don't understand...Charles Pic has one year and van der Garde has none. How does that add up to three? And what happened to Petrov?

Apologies, I am extremely tired today and it's showing on what I write

I meant this is the first Marussia second driver that manages to last for more than a season. And you're right on the other front. The total experience combined would be only two years, which is not too good for a team that is still stranded at the bottom of the grid. As for Petrov, I wouldn't be too optimistic about him.

And your maths is still wrong! You are not having a good day today

But remember when Kobayashi & Perez were hired by Sauber, they had a combined F1 experiece of one year at the time. The car turned out fine considering the team's budget and one has now moved to McLaren. It's not all bad!

If they resigned Sutil for 2013, then why in the bloody heck did they sack him in the first place? I've never heard of that before...

Shouldn't this be in the 2013 Silly Season thread?

But anyways, good that the curse of the second Marussia driver has been lifted, bad that he went to a team as rubbish as Caterham. (Seriously, I would have kept Pic at Marussia.) This probably means Kovalainen is sacked, since they would probably keep Petrov...

JeremyMcClean wrote:Shouldn't this be in the 2013 Silly Season thread?

But anyways, good that the curse of the second Marussia driver has been lifted, bad that he went to a team as rubbish as Caterham. (Seriously, I would have kept Pic at Marussia.) This probably means Kovalainen is sacked, since they would probably keep Petrov...

It is now...

Speaking of Caterham, both drivers could be out of a seat and van der Garde will be shoehorned into the other seat thanks to sponsor cash. He has been given an increased amount of running in the tail end of this season, and the deficit between him and the regular drivers has been shrinking over the course of the year as a result (he might stand a better chance given that he ended up beating Petrov in FP1 today). It seems that the career of the current Caterham drivers depends on whether or not they can beat Marussia tomorrow in the WCC - the potential loss of TV revenues will probably leave them needing two pay drivers.

JeremyMcClean wrote:If they resigned Sutil for 2013, then why in the bloody heck did they sack him in the first place? I've never heard of that before...

Because, thanks to Sutil's suspended prison sentence for assault, the team could have been unable to obtain a visa for Sutil for a number of countries (such as the US and Canada). It would have been awkward for the team, not just for the potential for legal issues to arise but also the potential adverse publicity if Sutil was turned down for a visa.

DanielPT wrote:The only reason for choosing Sutil rather than Alguersuari, in my view, is cash. From the sporting point of view, they know that Di Resta is better than Sutil for sure and pretty much everyone else knows that, so it makes no real sense. What no one knows is what is Jaime capable of doing. I think he is quite fast and perhaps might get the better of Di Resta. I am usually fond of journeyman in F1 but Sutil has had his chances at FI.

Cash would probably play its part, although it could also be that Sutil is more flexible in terms of his contract (it may be that Force India only want a driver for one year - there are rumours that Bianchi is still angling for a seat at Force India and has a small amount of sponsorship cash behind him, along with the possibility that Force India might switch back to Ferrari for 2014 and run Bianchi in return for a discount on their engine contract).

In what univerese is Di Resta better than Sutil

Petrov has not impressed me this year, and I have heard rumours that his sponsorship is less than secure. For me, I would keep Heikki over Vitaly anytime.

eurobrun wrote:In what univerese is Di Resta better than Sutil

The same universe where Di Resta spent most of last year matching if not beating Sutil.

Wizzie wrote:

eurobrun wrote:In what univerese is Di Resta better than Sutil

The same universe where Di Resta spent most of last year matching if not beating Sutil.

Look at the points, Sutil was usually better, especially in the first half of the year. And he has been absolutely terrible ever since he unrejectified himself this year.

eurobrun wrote:

Wizzie wrote:

eurobrun wrote:In what univerese is Di Resta better than Sutil

The same universe where Di Resta spent most of last year matching if not beating Sutil.

Look at the points, Sutil was usually better, especially in the first half of the year. And he has been absolutely terrible ever since he unrejectified himself this year.

Never use points as a reason why one driver is better than another. Look at this year. There is a mere 15 points between Perez and Kobayashi, but Perez has been much better than Kobayashi. At STR, Vergne has 3 more than Ricciardo, but Ricciardo has beaten Vergne in races 8-6. Then there's Williams, where without his win Pastor would be behind Senna...

Jocke1 wrote:

GwilymJJames wrote:Something else has also happened.

Charles Pic has today been announced as one of Caterham F1 Team's race drivers for the 2013 season and beyond.
The talented French driver joins the Anglo/Malaysian team on a multi-year contract after impressing in his first season in the Formula 1 World Championship.

To be fair, Pic has impressed in one regard: he's managed to secure a second season in Formula 1, something no Virgin/Marussia second driver has managed to do.

DanielPT wrote:The only reason for choosing Sutil rather than Alguersuari, in my view, is cash. From the sporting point of view, they know that Di Resta is better than Sutil for sure and pretty much everyone else knows that, so it makes no real sense. What no one knows is what is Jaime capable of doing. I think he is quite fast and perhaps might get the better of Di Resta. I am usually fond of journeyman in F1 but Sutil has had his chances at FI.

Why does everybody forget Sutil's performances in 2011, compared to Di Resta! In 2011, Sutil scored 42 points to Di Resta's 27! Now, I am not saying Di Resta is a bad driver, but he is certainly an overrated driver! As a Brit, I guess I should be 'bigging' him up, but I am surprised people were talking about him as a future McLaren driver and race winner. He could maybe develop into one, but I don't believe he is developing into the Alonso/Hamilton/Vettel class. He would probably fall behind Rosberg, Webber and Button too in the talent stakes.

It's really frustrating actually that Sutil is out of F1 at the moment and I hope he finds a way back in 2013. In 2010 and 2011 he outperformed his car on many occasions, in the same way Alonso has done this season. I suspect he lost his drive at Force India because of the suspended sentence and I suspect he has lost his Medion and Capri-Sun sponsorship as a result too, so I doubt he will be chosen for money.

In fact, in 2013 we could have so many talented drivers out of F1. I'm thinking; Sutil, Buemi, Alguersuari, Barrichello, Kobayashi and Kovalainen!

Good to see Frijns get the third seat at Sauber. I hope he will drive some friday practices and shows Carlos Slim that Gutierrez is a waste of money. In fact, i think that's actually the point Sauber is trying to make...

JeremyMcClean wrote:If they resigned Sutil for 2013, then why in the bloody heck did they sack him in the first place? I've never heard of that before...

Heidfeld and BMW-Sauber? Anyway, I seem to remember that Alguersuari is pretty well back up in terms of cash, and he also knows the Pirellis really well, so he'd bu my choice. Or rather both and sakcing Di Resta but that's out of reality.

I'm mad at Kaltenborn for sacking Kobayashi, but moving Frijns closer to F1 makes this feeling less strong. I'm also happy with Pic staying in F1. I guess, his partner will be Petrov or Van der Garde, Kovalainen just doesn't have the money to stay.

the Masked Lapwing wrote:

eurobrun wrote:Look at the points, Sutil was usually better, especially in the first half of the year. And he has been absolutely terrible ever since he unrejectified himself this year.

Never use points as a reason why one driver is better than another. Look at this year. There is a mere 15 points between Perez and Kobayashi, but Perez has been much better than Kobayashi. At STR, Vergne has 3 more than Ricciardo, but Ricciardo has beaten Vergne in races 8-6. Then there's Williams, where without his win Pastor would be behind Senna...

I think at teams where the car is consistently capable of scoring, points are pretty good basis of comparison. Toro Rosso doesn't fall to this category and didn't fall in 2010, either - we can all remember Alguersuari's 11th places. But last year's Force India was a good enough car to compare the drivers in terms of points, especially with such a big difference. Surely, Di Resta had great races where he beat Sutil, but in general, Sutil's year was better. And even at the end of the season where they were supposed to be evenly matched, Sutil had a 3-race streak beating Di Resta.

Oh, and there's only 8 points between Perez and Kobayashi. Which actually makes the "Kamui wasn't consistent enough" Kaltenborn-bullshit... well, bullshit.

QuickYoda41 wrote:

JeremyMcClean wrote:If they resigned Sutil for 2013, then why in the bloody heck did they sack him in the first place? I've never heard of that before...

Heidfeld and BMW-Sauber?

Doesn't really count - he was brought to Sauber at the request of Mario Theissen. He wasn't rehired by the same person that sacked him. Which would actually be the case with Sutil.

pher38 wrote:

DanielPT wrote:The only reason for choosing Sutil rather than Alguersuari, in my view, is cash. From the sporting point of view, they know that Di Resta is better than Sutil for sure and pretty much everyone else knows that, so it makes no real sense. What no one knows is what is Jaime capable of doing. I think he is quite fast and perhaps might get the better of Di Resta. I am usually fond of journeyman in F1 but Sutil has had his chances at FI.

Why does everybody forget Sutil's performances in 2011, compared to Di Resta! In 2011, Sutil scored 42 points to Di Resta's 27! Now, I am not saying Di Resta is a bad driver, but he is certainly an overrated driver! As a Brit, I guess I should be 'bigging' him up, but I am surprised people were talking about him as a future McLaren driver and race winner. He could maybe develop into one, but I don't believe he is developing into the Alonso/Hamilton/Vettel class. He would probably fall behind Rosberg, Webber and Button too in the talent stakes.

And therein lies the reason as to why Sutil doesn't deserve a drive next year. Di Resta's not that great a driver and yet he had no problem challenging Sutil on a regular basis last year, despite the German having vastly more experience than him.

DanielPT wrote:The only reason for choosing Sutil rather than Alguersuari, in my view, is cash.

According to ESPN - I think it might be ESPN - Paul di Resta could be out of a drive next year as well, which might pave the way for Sutil and Alguersuari to join/re-join the team.

JeremyMcClean wrote:If they resigned Sutil for 2013, then why in the bloody heck did they sack him in the first place? I've never heard of that before...

You know, that whole "nearly killing an Enstone employee" thing? Perhaps Force India, or better Mallya, just wanted to wait until nobody really cared about that incident anymore to just give Sutil the cockpit they never really wanted to take from him in the first place. Interestingly that would make Hülkenberg's career resurrection a mere accident. If you continue this train of thought you must wonder whether Kamui Kobayashi's career was actually wrecked by Sutil drinking some drencrom which has sharpened him up and made him ready for a bit of the old ultra-violence. Interesting theory indeed.

Captain Hammer wrote:

DanielPT wrote:The only reason for choosing Sutil rather than Alguersuari, in my view, is cash.

According to ESPN - I think it might be ESPN - Paul di Resta could be out of a drive next year as well, which might pave the way for Sutil and Alguersuari to join/re-join the team.

Hum... So what did happen to Di Resta Mercedes back-up? Unless he was dropped since the moment they got their hands on Hamilton. Which sounds something that Toro Rosso and Franz Tost could do to a racing driver...

I salivate at the thought of more fail drivers on the grid, so I'm looking forward for Gutierrez to make a fool of himself and by extension Sauber as well. Sutil and Di Resta should both be turfed out for two more excitingly bad pay drivers.

I'm just repeating what I've heard.

I've also heard that Force India find di Resta very difficult to work with, and if that is the case, the team might decide that he isn't worth the engine subsidy. Especially if Mercedes have other young drivers out there that they might like to promote one day.

Captain Hammer wrote:I'm just repeating what I've heard.

I've also heard that Force India find di Resta very difficult to work with, and if that is the case, the team might decide that he isn't worth the engine subsidy. Especially if Mercedes have other young drivers out there that they might like to promote one day.

From what I've seen of the British broadcasts, turfing Di Resta out would be a tragedy for them...