Grand Prix Rejects

fjackdaw wrote:

tc3j3r wrote:What a waste of a Sunday afternoon. Nothing at all happened apart from the collision which was completely Webber's fault - his front wheels were level with Hamilton's rear wheels.

Apart from all the overtaking, collisions, spins and the fire on the start-finish straight you mean?

Kubia overtook a few cars at the end for lowly points paying positions that was it. Not what I tune in to see. 3 collisions is about average for and F1 race, and only 1 was relevant. I don't remember any spins. A fire doesn't make a race exciting. The race was shite

Oh wow, you haven't watched an F1 race in the last 20 or so years, have you?

Considering this was Singapore, a street race where it's hard to overtake (and therefore expectations are tuned to that) it was a great race, plenty of overtaking (not just Kubica, but Schumacher, Kobayashi, Webber etc.) and also other interesting events. Or maybe you're one of those people that only consider the race interesting if something happens in the top positions, in that case I understand you.

And what had been a halfway decent recovery drive by Sutil has ended on a sour note - the stewards have added 20s to his finishing time for going off the track at Turn 7 on the opening lap. As a result, Sutil has now been demoted from 8th to 10th place. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/87012

Well, I have to disagree with anyone who says that was a bad race.

On the contrary. What. A. Race. This coming from the grandstand perspective, with the crowd reacting to every development.

Not only the championship knife edge, the strategy calls, the overtaking, the incidents and the controversy, but all this in oppressive, sapping conditions for two hours with walls everywhere and one mistake spelling doom.

Alonso's imperious drive aside, for all the recent Vettel-bashing this was a superb demonstration by Seb of how to keep piling on pressure, pressure, pressure. As for Webber ... how many times have we seen a touch like that result in damage for the hitter (as opposed to the hittee)? And how many times have we seen drive-throughs for that? Is Danny Sullivan a Mark Webber fan?

The incident with Hamilton was a true racing incident, and Hamilton will have to share some of the blame. But Lewis will wonder - he did exactly what Massa did to him at Monza, and yet on both occasions he's the one with the DNF.

Having said that, Webber did pull off some excellent moves against two of the hardest men to pass in the business - Kobayashi and Schumacher, although it's easy to forget that given Kubica's late-race heroics, fresher tyres notwithstanding. Robert sent the crowds ballistic with every move. The one on Buemi in particular was SPECIAL given how far back he lunged from. It was reminiscent of the move Button put on Sebastien in Brazil last year for how far back he came from.

I'll be honest, Singapore hasn't really endeared itself to me, but I enjoyed being in the stands for this race.

P.S. Trackside commentary by Neil Crompton (brought in from Oz), Peter Windsor and Bob Constanduros was excellent. Confirms my belief that Neil and Brundle should team up.

P.P.S. No, I didn't see the Kobayashi/Senna incident - just out of view from my position.

P.P.P.S. Will try to post some pics from yesterday and today later in this thread.

Mister Fungus wrote:Oh wow, you haven't watched an F1 race in the last 20 or so years, have you?

Considering this was Singapore, a street race where it's hard to overtake (and therefore expectations are tuned to that) it was a great race, plenty of overtaking (not just Kubica, but Schumacher, Kobayashi, Webber etc.) and also other interesting events.

So according to you, Canada was rubbish because we were expecting it to be exciting, and Bahrain was brilliant because we were expecting it to be boring.

Uhm, no? How did you even conclude that? Read my post again, it's about exceeding expectations.

I am saying each race brings certain expectations, you can't expect Spa and Singapore being alike. However this race wasn't boring like Monaco for which I also had low expectations but they actually came through. You could say that Hockenheim was another bad race, for which expectations were fairly high but in the end it was really bad. Singapore, considering the circumstances, was an excellent race with plenty of of interesting events.

It's like this, if Alonso was expected to win, it's still a great drive if he wins (it's not that you would call him crap for fulfilling expectation, so your reasoning makes no sense), but if we expected Kobayashi to be out of the top ten, but he ended 6th that's still a great result from him.

tc3,

Relax buddy. Obviously it wasn't your favorite race. It wasn't mine either, though it may have had something to do with me staying up all night working and then watching it at 7am.


On another note, I don't think McLaren can back either driver given how close they are. That said, I just can't see Button winning the championship. Not quite a good enough car and not enough pace on his part. But if Hamilton can keep in the remaining races, Button's consistency would go a long way to giving McLaren a good chance at the constructor's championship.

Like Bahrain had the interesting event of Vettel's problem, and Hockhenheim had the interesting event of Ferrari's team orders. I guess we all have the right to view the race however we want to, but personally I struggle to remember many races from the 139 that I have watched which had me willing the race to end in wuite the same way as this one.

Well, to each their own on whether that was an interesting race or not.

But for me, the definition is the number of talking points generated by the race. To that end, Bahrain though a dull affair on track gave so much food for thought, even that became interesting. The closest thing I would say we've had to a truly uninteresting race this year was Spain, but even then the extent of Red Bull's dominance was a talking point.

The fact that there have been so many genuine title contenders also adds interest to every race because every incident has implications.

Compared to seasons like 2002 and 2004, I would say this has been a season full of intriguing, interesting races and is the best championship in many a year. On the whole F1 has seen some pretty darn good championships in the last decade, with 2003, 2007 and 2008 all coming down to genuine, nailbiting deciders, but this season has bested them all because on average each race has generated more talking points.

A pity for Petrov that he went a lap down then, it cost him a point!

btw, I also agree that it was a great race. This race had a great lead-battle, as well as lots of mid pack battle and some interesting strategies.

eytl wrote:P.S. Trackside commentary by Neil Crompton (brought in from Oz), Peter Windsor and Bob Constanduros was excellent. Confirms my belief that Neil and Brundle should team up.

Yes, they had them at Albert Park this year as well, they did do a great job!

eytl wrote:Compared to seasons like 2002 and 2004, I would say this has been a season full of intriguing, interesting races and is the best championship in many a year. On the whole F1 has seen some pretty darn good championships in the last decade, with 2003, 2007 and 2008 all coming down to genuine, nailbiting deciders, but this season has bested them all because on average each race has generated more talking points.

Plus add the fact that there aren't two, or three contenders now unlike in the mentioned years, there are five as of right now, with four races to go.
Yes, there always was a Ferrari and a McLaren fighting till the end in all three - with Montoya's Williams as an exception in 03 till his botched Indy race - which is a clear example of team hierarchy, and then we might mention 2009's first half as a difference.

I agree with you on the fact that this season is interesting. It's good to see the midfield even more closer to each other unlike let's say, six years ago. There clearly are more drivers who I can say "Yes, they clearly drive the max out of the car" - more than one, I can mention three right now.

There aren't many rejects, but there are more than we could have expected. If we only look at HRT's drivers, you can find the Neck and the Dog- (plus now Cowboy)-hitter, joined by the Austrian Red Bull refugee and some Indian bloke who seemed to be topping Senna till Kolles - who of course, needs to go home - dropped him out of his racing seat.

Yes. All races gave us topics. From Monaco's early-stopping technique through Turkey's Red Bull conflict up to Singapore, these are clearly races where we can't fall asleep. However, I agree that some races WERE boring.

tc3j3r wrote:

fjackdaw wrote:

tc3j3r wrote:What a waste of a Sunday afternoon. Nothing at all happened apart from the collision which was completely Webber's fault - his front wheels were level with Hamilton's rear wheels.

Apart from all the overtaking, collisions, spins and the fire on the start-finish straight you mean?

Kubia overtook a few cars at the end for lowly points paying positions that was it. Not what I tune in to see. 3 collisions is about average for and F1 race, and only 1 was relevant. I don't remember any spins. A fire doesn't make a race exciting. The race was shite

So you're only really interested in what happens in the top three or four places? Everything else that happens in the race is irrelevant?

fjackdaw wrote:

tc3j3r wrote:What a waste of a Sunday afternoon. Nothing at all happened apart from the collision which was completely Webber's fault - his front wheels were level with Hamilton's rear wheels.

Apart from all the overtaking, collisions, spins and the fire on the start-finish straight you mean?

I'm one of the people who though the race was great and that the track is a classic. I think Eagle Ash will try to kill me for this, but it's one of the few circuits where F1 cars are actually interesting to watch.

Now that Sutil got a penalty (what a shame, he drove great in a car that didn't like the track at all), Williams and Force India are equal on points in the Championship. Great stuff - but they have less than half the points of Renault ahead of them...

As promised, some more pics from yesterday and today, cropped but basically unedited.

Barrichello in FP3 at turn 11 just after the 'Singapore Sling' chicane:


Alonso at turn 14 in FP3 - this isn't a particularly great photo, except you can see Fernando's eyes:


Sutil during qualifying between turns 17 and 18:


As requested by thomasq, a Porsche Carrera Asia Cup photo - Christian Menzel gets up on two wheels at turn 8:


Di Grassi during the race tonight, again between turns 17 and 18:

tc3j3r wrote:

fjackdaw wrote:

tc3j3r wrote:What a waste of a Sunday afternoon. Nothing at all happened apart from the collision which was completely Webber's fault - his front wheels were level with Hamilton's rear wheels.

Apart from all the overtaking, collisions, spins and the fire on the start-finish straight you mean?

Kubia overtook a few cars at the end for lowly points paying positions that was it. Not what I tune in to see. 3 collisions is about average for and F1 race, and only 1 was relevant. I don't remember any spins. A fire doesn't make a race exciting. The race was shite

In fact, wasn't it you claiming before that Alonso hadn't deserved ANY of his wins this year? Is your ire towards this race perhaps something to do with the identify of the winner?

fjackdaw wrote:In fact, wasn't it you claiming before that Alonso hadn't deserved ANY of his wins this year? Is your ire towards this race perhaps something to do with the identify of the winner?

My lack of enjoyment of this race is because of the lack of any doubt about the identity of the winner at any stage during the race. Now shut up. (Like I had before you came along with your provocative comments).

tc3j3r wrote:

fjackdaw wrote:In fact, wasn't it you claiming before that Alonso hadn't deserved ANY of his wins this year? Is your ire towards this race perhaps something to do with the identify of the winner?

My lack of enjoyment of this race is because of the lack of any doubt about the identity of the winner at any stage during the race. Now shut up. (Like I had before you came along with your provocative comments).

I'd like to know what do you call a race where the leader is +20 seconds ahead at half distance. The lack of ANY doubt?

Now Hulkenberg has been penalised as well, so drops to 10th, behind Sutil. Force India inches away from Williams by 4 points - nothing in it!

So much butthurt in this thread.

I thought this was a good race. There was plenty of action, plenty of drama, and it was I would say better than Monaco, and certainly better than Valencia. Heck, this was better than Monza two weeks ago I'd say. Granted it's not Spa, but Spa is Spa and Singapore is Singapore; of course it won't be Spa but for Singapore it was rather exciting.

How do you guys compare the Hamilton-Webber crash with the Schumacher-Kobayashi crash? They looked pretty much the same to me, race incidents. Would like to hear possible different opinions on this.

Superb race, and this is from a guy who slept for about an hour or two on an uncomfy and unforgiving sofa the night before, and who was nursing a hefty hangover as the race unfolded.

The battle for the lead was totally enthralling, both drivers were right on it, and for the majority of the race, Vettel was within a second of Alonso. Combined with the setting and the environment, I think that alone was incredible.

Singapore, for me at least, is a future classic. Bernie is right to want to keep it for another 20 years. Eddie Jordan summed it up brilliantly in the BBC F1 Forum after the race when he mentioned about, with increasing and improving safety, races are beginning to move back to the streets and public roads. Bland circuits in the middle of nowhere are not what fans want (yes I'm thinking Bahrain, China, Sepang, etc).

And then there was all the other action too! Kubica's charge was brilliant, makes me wonder why more drivers don't do that, perhaps two thirds or three quarters through the race - stick on a set of softs and go for it. Considering Kubica's stop was relatively late on, he'd already recovered to 7th when he'd been running 6th? before the stop. Given more time he probably could have had Barrichello too.

That overtake on the outside of turn 7 had me off my seat as well. Sublime pass, much like Hamilton's on one of the Mercedes cars at Melbourne at the chicane at the start of the year.

There were however two gripes in my opinion which were annoying and had nothing to do with the racing. The first and more important of these was the lack of initiative of the marshalls. Granted Kamui and Senna's incident had to warrant the safety car, but why were they just left to get themselves out of their cars as the rest of the field swept past? The marshalls just stood like lemons all nice and safe behind their catchfence. Smacked of inexperience and a lack of professionalism in my opinion. If they can't get the staff at the venue, they should be flying the marshals in from the UK, Italy, etc - from countries who know how to marshall a motor race properly. This kind of trend though seems to be common throughout all of the new tracks F1 is visiting. The countries simply have no other motorsport background apart from the F1 race.

The second gripe was the poor camerawork. Brundle even made a comment about it when they followed Schumacher around for a lap and a half after his stop for a new front wing, whilst Button tried to close on Webber and the battle for the lead heightened. There were plenty of other moments where I was groaning as the camera cut from the action prematurely. Maybe, like the stewards, they just can't get the staff in these new venues...

But otherwise a brilliant race, and some great photos too eytl, especially like the one with Alonso's eyes! Superb stuff!

eytl wrote:But for me, the definition is the number of talking points generated by the race. To that end, Bahrain though a dull affair on track gave so much food for thought, even that became interesting. The closest thing I would say we've had to a truly uninteresting race this year was Spain, but even then the extent of Red Bull's dominance was a talking point.

Yeah, spain was probably the worst, I can't remember anything of it. Like you said some of the worse tracks are still producing great races, which is why the season is so good. My personal favorite was Hungary - the sheer tension as Webber raced towards the pitstop window was brilliant. But I suppose this'll be a better discussion for the end of the season.

CarlosFerreira wrote:How do you guys compare the Hamilton-Webber crash with the Schumacher-Kobayashi crash? They looked pretty much the same to me, race incidents. Would like to hear possible different opinions on this.

I can't remember schu's incident specifically, but I'm surprised not many people have picked up on his really abysmal race - almost as bad as Canada in terms of just punting cars around the track

Doubtlessly joe saward will be having a field day over him tomorrow

Regarding Kovalainen's "flame run", the Finnish commentary team pointed out that Kovalainen might have deliberately chosen to try crossing the start/finish line despite the car being in flames. This was because if he had succeeded, he supposedly would have completed enough laps to be classified ahead of di Grassi. But as we can see from the official results, he didn't quite manage to do so.

Nuppiz wrote:Regarding Kovalainen's "flame run", the Finnish commentary team pointed out that Kovalainen might have deliberately chosen to try crossing the start/finish line despite the car being in flames. This was because if he had succeeded, he supposedly would have completed enough laps to be classified ahead of di Grassi. But as we can see from the official results, he didn't quite manage to do so.

I thought the same, but forgot to put that in my post! At the time Heikki was 14th so it would have been another decent finish for the team, but obviously it didn't quite work out. Wouldn't be surprised if the order had come from further up though (i.e. Fernandes) as he seemed certain to head for the pits and then suddenly veer back onto the track.

CarlosFerreira wrote:How do you guys compare the Hamilton-Webber crash with the Schumacher-Kobayashi crash? They looked pretty much the same to me, race incidents. Would like to hear possible different opinions on this.

I thought the Hamilton-Webber crash and both Schumacher-Sauber crashes were racing incidents. I think Schumacher-Heidfeld - or the last part of it anyway - actually happened in the same place. Schumacher-Kobayashi was the dodgiest, but it wasn't what I'd call penalisable.

When "collision between cars 2 and 6 is being investigated" came up I was expecting them to punish Webber (and Schumacher since the Heidfeld one was nearly identical), in which case I'd have gone off on a lovely rant, but common sense saw through.

Possible conspiracy theory (which I don't quite believe and which I imagine I might be shot down by papayas for...):

In Belgium, a Red Bull (Vettel) crashes into a McLaren (Button). The Red Bull continues, the McLaren retires.
In Singapore, a Red Bull (Webber) crashes into a Mclaren (Hamilton). The Red Bull continues, the McLaren retires.

I am not pointng the finger or anything but if it had happened in the same GP, it might have seemed more suspicious...

Is anybody standing?

Enforcer wrote:

CarlosFerreira wrote:How do you guys compare the Hamilton-Webber crash with the Schumacher-Kobayashi crash? They looked pretty much the same to me, race incidents. Would like to hear possible different opinions on this.

I thought the Hamilton-Webber crash and both Schumacher-Sauber crashes were racing incidents. I think Schumacher-Heidfeld - or the last part of it anyway - actually happened in the same place. Schumacher-Kobayashi was the dodgiest, but it wasn't what I'd call penalisable.

When "collision between cars 2 and 6 is being investigated" came up I was expecting them to punish Webber (and Schumacher since the Heidfeld one was nearly identical), in which case I'd have gone off on a lovely rant, but common sense saw through.

You're right! It was Schumacher on Heidfeld, not on Kobayashi. That's what I wanted to compare to Webber and Hamilton - and yes, I agree they were the same, racing incidents.

CarlosFerreira wrote:
I'm one of the people who though the race was great and that the track is a classic. I think Eagle Ash will try to kill me for this, but it's one of the few circuits where F1 cars are actually interesting

This, Joy Division, oh a million things

I dislike the night races, the comment from someone in the pre race Red Bull pit, that it was like being at an indoor go-kart track says it all for me. (They must have been reading my Twitter feed from Fri). But I enjoyed the race more than I was expecting.

More great photos from F1 rej. snapper in chief.

This track is narrow, twisty and dangerous. It's bathplugging brilliant!

That was a great race! I mean, good grief, the stewards even managed to get something right although personally I think they should have done Schumi for punting Nick off. I suppose they couldn't really after letting the Lewis/Mark one go though. Or perhaps they were feeling sorry for Michael given that he was having such a crap race again!

We even had an engine blow up spectacularly (stupid though Lotus were to let Heikki carry on) for the first time in ages. Brought back happy memories of that race a few years back where all 4 Honda engines in the Jordans and BARs went boom! (at Spa iirc?)

eytl wrote:As requested by thomasq, a Porsche Carrera Asia Cup photo - Christian Mentzel gets up on two wheels at turn 8:

Actually its Christian Menzel. And no Craig Baird?!

I find it interesting that, like Monaco, Singapore whipped the three new teams, leaving only di Grassi to cross the finish line (Even if Kovalainen was classified), as well as a few of the other teams. In terms of unclassified DNFs this race is second only to Australia this season. I may disagree with the layout of the track, especially the Singapore Sling chicane, but I don't understand why anyone considers it a boring race. Perhaps that's the case with the viewers, but it seems like it could take on a Monaco-like reputation - a narrow track, nor room for error, only the best can handle it. Sure, maybe the front-runners held position the entire race, but for the most part there was always something going on throughout the race. Believe me, there have been more boring races than this during the season. Plus, if it attracts a sellout crowd, Bernie's always going to treat it as one of the best...

AndreaModa wrote:There were however two gripes in my opinion which were annoying and had nothing to do with the racing. The first and more important of these was the lack of initiative of the marshalls. Granted Kamui and Senna's incident had to warrant the safety car, but why were they just left to get themselves out of their cars as the rest of the field swept past? The marshalls just stood like lemons all nice and safe behind their catchfence. Smacked of inexperience and a lack of professionalism in my opinion. If they can't get the staff at the venue, they should be flying the marshals in from the UK, Italy, etc - from countries who know how to marshall a motor race properly. This kind of trend though seems to be common throughout all of the new tracks F1 is visiting. The countries simply have no other motorsport background apart from the F1 race.

I agree with you about this. Plus the Kovalainen incident at the end. Sure, he parked it on the other side of the track to where the marshals would have been, but they were terribly slow to get to the burning Lotus. Heikki grabbing the fire extinguisher and putting out the flames himself was a lovely Taki Inoue moment.

There is significant Australian assistance behind this event. The clerk of the course was Tim Schenken as it is in Melbourne. As I mentioned before, they brought in Neil Crompton to commentate and John Smailes to report in the pits. And the marshals are organised and trained by the Australians as well. The Singaporeans know that they're inexperienced which is why they enlist Australian guidance. But being trained properly is one thing, getting the job done when it counts is another matter altogether.

kostas22 wrote:Actually its Christian Menzel. And no Craig Baird?!

Fixed. And yes I did take a few shots of "Bairdo" but I liked the Menzel one the best.

Rocks with Salt wrote:but it seems like it could take on a Monaco-like reputation - a narrow track, nor room for error, only the best can handle it.

Does that mean Alonso is the best? Three races at Singapore, two wins (OK, the first in dodgy circumstances but were it not for his Q2 problem he would have been right up there anyway in the mediocre 2008 Renault) and a 3rd in the dog that was the 2009 Renault ... the stand-out record at this track by far.

And where does that leave Timo Glock? 2nd last year in the Toyota, and in the early stages last night looked like pinching a point for Virgin ...

Rocks with Salt wrote:Plus, if it attracts a sellout crowd, Bernie's always going to treat it as one of the best...

Singapore has advantages that the other "new market" destinations don't. Firstly, one must understand the urban Asian psyche. Urban Asians love celebrities and big stars, especially foreign ones (just think Bill Murray's character in Lost in Translation). (Which was one of the things I found a bit annoying about the weekend - how the crowd was just soooo pro-Ferrari and pro-Hamilton because they're big names ... and probably couldn't name three-quarters of the field, nor truly understand the nuances of F1.)

So why does Singapore work but not China, for example? Singapore is smack bang in the middle of the city, Shanghai is more out of the way (not to mention Istanbul!). Public transport options also make it incredibly easy to get to the track. The other thing is, Shanghai being purpose built with lots of space and huge grandstands will also look sparsely attended. In Singapore, space in the precinct was very limited, with a small choice of grandstands. Street racing also helps the crowd feel closer to the action, obviously.

Singaporeans will also tend to have a larger amount of disposable income, whereas F1 is priced out of the range for most Chinese. I'll be interested to see whether Indians can afford to attend F1 next year as well.

The last thing is the timeslot and the way the event is structured. Being a night-time race, it not only suits European audiences but it becomes a "hang out" activity for the locals, who've spent the day indoors or in malls to get away from the heat and humidity.

eytl wrote:Firstly, one must understand the urban Asian psyche. Urban Asians love celebrities and big stars, especially foreign ones .

What about internet celebrities? Did you get to sign many autographs?

Strip the Singapore Grand Prix down to the same 250 kilometre distance that Monaco has, and I'd be more favourable towards it. As it stands, it's an interesting counter-point to the faster tracks at Spa-Francorchamps and Monza, and introduces a bit of attrition which we don't see as often with today's cars, but the race time is perhaps too long for a tight street circuit where overtaking can lead to disaster. Apart from that, we did see some good racing, particularly from Kubica.

For those of you within the UK, there is an interesting video blog here from Kravitz post race, where he is looking at some of the cars and teams. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsp ... 036020.stm

Firstly, it transpires that Webber was almost staggeringly lucky at Singapore - on closer inspection, Bridgestone reckon that he probably had under half a mile a mile left before the tyre would have come off the rim altogether - or about one third of a lap. With no major suspension damage and a tyre barely on the rim, for once we're in the odd situation where Webber has had astoundingly good luck...

At the back of the grid, there is still a little bit of confusion at Lotus over what caused his fire - they suspect that Buemi might have actually broken an oil line, not a fuel line, although it is being looked into. It seems that Heikki is being praised for not taking his car into the pit lane (and I therefore withdraw my earlier criticism of him), since it meant that he could access the fire marshall posts on the pit wall but not pose a risk to those in the pit lane itself. Unfortunately, though, having to crawl back to the pit lane came at a price - Heikki's chassis is now a complete write off, along with the rear bodywork and floor, and the team are preparing a spare chassis (they had a spare one at Singapore) for Japan.

Sorry to dig this up, but when looking at Tony Fernandes' Twitter feed, it seems that the events of this race aren't easily forgotten by the team, as seen in Heikki's birthday presents from the team:

http://plixi.com/p/51577692
http://plixi.com/p/51580051