Grand Prix Rejects

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALbxMiwf4nw

Kudos to Moreno for stopping to help but more importantly this video shows just how insanely narrow the stage was.

Those good old barriers... I think they killed more people than they actually saved. There are more advanced designs available but those things are viciously sharp at the hedges. I am part of motorcyclists' rights group (ready to take flak) and I can vouch all the horror stories are true. Recently authorities have started to move and as a quick fix rubber and plastic guards are being installed over the most exposed points. Right now safer, more advanced designs are available but those old barriers are still being installed to this day, mostly because huge stocks have been built up. I really hope this high profile accident will speed up the process of replacing them or fitting guards at a faster pace. We could "put up" in the past when nothing else was available but right now it's inexcusable negligence.

i join all the others in wishing Kubica a complete recovery. Right now there's really no much more we can do than hope and pray.

Jim Clark Forever wrote:

Phoenix wrote:

ElizabethSterling wrote:Catching the blade-edge of a barrier and being skewered by the pole on the driver's side isn't at least 10,000 to 1? You must watch a really bloody sport...

If you crash against a guardrail it's not uncommon to happen. Take a look at Jochen Rindt's fatal accident: he crashed against a guardrail and the poles of it destroyed the front end of the car.

As I recall it, in the Rindt crash the (badly) installed support to the barrier gave way and the front of the car passed between two layers of Armco, which then closed like jaws when the car rebounded, slicing off the front of the car and grabbing hold of Rindt's legs, because he refused to wear crotch straps he was pulled forward in the car and the lap belt cut his throat. The thought of it still makes my blood run cold...

Correct...& someone has already mentioned Francois Cevert's horrendous fatal accident, but at The Glen the next year Helmuth Koinigg was decapitated by the Armco barrier also.

Even as the barriers were being installed in the late 60s/early 70s, I used to wonder why gaps were left between the two (or three) "layers" of Armco.

The Mountain Man wrote: I am part of motorcyclists' rights group.

Good....
However, we notice when these things inflict terrible injuries, but not when they actually do the job they were intended for. Having said that, there are, as noted above, better alternatives now available.

BBC f1 are reporting that Kubica has regained conciousness following surgery.....& that initial reports are optimistic.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsp ... 389513.stm

A very encouraging article, everything seems to be going according to plan, Eric Boullier suggested that the recovery might be less than the year we saw quoted yesterday, so fingers crossed we may see him this season.

And now Eurosport are saying that he could be back in a couple of months. While the news piece sounds a bit optimistical I am rooting that this becomes true.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/07022011/58/kubica-return-months.html

EDIT: Apparently Eurosport changed the news piece. When I saw the original I thought that they were basing it in something Boullier might have said, but it looks they rushed into it. What a bunch of idiots... Anyway I still hope that the couple months recovery can become the reality. It would be great for Robert.

Dan B wrote:First off, I should say that I wish Kubica a speedy recovery and I hope to see him back in F1 soon.

Hiring Senna would be in my opinion, a rather dumb move considering there are 3, possibly 4 drivers without seats that have much more experience. Heidfeld and De La Rosa would be great choices because they are reliable (albeit boring) drivers. Liuzzi might work if he doesn't bin in/dawdle around in the back like he did last year. The fourth I am thinking of is Sakon Yamamoto; here's why I say that (and I am saying this with a straight face):
- Drove in F1 in 2006 and 2007 prior to 2010
- All the cars he drove were utter crap; who knows, he might be a really good driver and is just not performing up to potential.
- Again, a safe option; yeah, he's done some silly moves, but I can't remember if he binned the car last year because of a dumb mistake (and if so, please tell me because I can't remember).

The team needs someone with concrete race experience, and by that I mean in F1, in the middle of the pack, for more than one year.

Eh?? Yamamoto has never won a car race; he's been pitiful in every series hes ever competed in, and rankly the worst pay driver since Riccardo Rosset. Christian Klien and Lucas di Grassi I beleive may have a shot, as both are free agents. De La Rosa is contracted to Pirelli, whilst Liuzzi has had his day in the sun. Hulkenberg would be a good choioe, but I don't known if Boullier would be able to wrangle out of his FI contract.

Yesterday was not a good day for F1

A part of me still hopes that a miracle will happen and we will still see Robert Kubica in the Renault this season.
However, failing that, here's my two cents on the subject of "Who can replace Robert?"

I think that Renault have 3 main strategies available for them at the moment, and any potential replacement drivers should be rated acording to how well they are suited to one of these strategies.
Renault can:

A - Attempt to salvage the current season. They have made great progress in developing the care, and based on testing results and last years performance Kubica was expected to fight for the championship (and maybe even win). Doing opion A means finding a driver of equal or superior talent, and they are in very short supply, especially on such short notice. If such a driver is not found, they can:

B - give up on the current season and prepare for the next, in which case they should:
B1: hire an experienced test driver that can develop the car further until Robert returns or another top driver becomes available, or
B2: get a young promising driver in the car that can develop himself into a top driver over the course of the season, so that next year they will not be in such a desperate position.

In my opinion A is probably impossible to do because even if they find a very good driver, he will probably not be able to drive the Renault at peak efficiency, as the car was allready designed to suit Kubica's driving style. Personally, since I am rooting for Senna to take the seat, I hope they choose option B2, but we have to wait and see.

Best regards!

The sensible option would be to get either De La Rose or Heidfeld in - rapidly becoming the new Verstappen and Salo, when you want a safe but tedious pair of hands at the last minute. I don't think they should do this though... both drivers will get the car safely home and will put in anonymous drives (especially Heidfeld), but neither are likely to pull amazing things out of the bag and go for wins.

I reckon Senna or Grosjean deserve the slot. Senna was saddled with the worst car on the grid, and while he did a bad job in even that, it's all too easy to do a bad job in a bad car, and the fact that his lower-rated team-mates beat him I don't think is really much indication of how he would do in a good car, the situations are comparable. Similar, Grosjean was parachuted in with pretty much no preparation, so it's little wonder he flunked so badly. He deserves a second shot since the cards were stacked against him and it seems unfair that that was the total sum of his F1 career.

As an outside shot, Klein or Pantano seem to have more to offer than they've been given the opportunity to show.

a workmate of mine thinks they should give the other schumacher a call.....

I think Senna should have a go at the car, like a couple of races... I think he has the pace and will to perform but had bad morale last season with HRT.

Anyone agrees?

Sad news, just want to add my voice to say "get well robert". Seems like a man with the grit to recover and come back strong.

I agree with EYTL though, the reserve list of drivers for this year is embarrassing. I fear L-R-GP has just had their year scuppered. Hulkenberg is the boy they should be trying to get.

Anyone for Ralf Schumacher as Renault replacement driver? Please come over here.

Come on, someone must think this is a good idea ... aside from me.

Anyone?...

What's Johnny Dumfries' son up to thee days?

(Bit late on this one)

Ho Pin Tung given a superlicense for apparently no reason last year...I'm standing up.

In all seriousness though, it does sound like the road to recovery is going to be a long one for Kubica. I'm sure he will want to be back in the car as soon as possible but it sounds like he'll be driving with an impairment for a long time, or maybe even permanently (let's hope not). It's a great shame. It's obviously not unusual there to be lots of crashes at rallies, but this sounds like a bit of a freak incident.

However, am I the only one vaguely excited by the prospect of Senna in a Renault. I know he was pretty poor last year at Hispania, but he was really pushing that car beyond its limits. With Renault he should have a good car, and should calm down if given enough time.

Can we please just give Luca Badoer the seat until Kubica recovers.

Speaking of possible replacements, I wonder what Deletraz is doing nowadays...

...Doesn't matter what he's doing. To be serious for a minute, I hope they just put Senna in the car. I know he was pretty bad last year, but I would very much like to see how he'd do in a car that is not a horrible pile of rubbish.

If they say that he'll recover in two months, he should return only having missed two races. Only just.

He might be a little rusty in Malaysia, but hopefully he'll have a safe recovery and let's hope he puts his season back on track.

Hey everyone - Gary Slevin here, sometime contributor to F1 Rejects. I thought it was about time I started posting rather than lurking!

I was so sad when I heard about Robert. If they guy was to get a decent car under him, he would have a very good crack at the championship I am sure. Along with Hamilton and Alonso (the cheating Spaniard) he is the man on the track.

When I heard it reminded me of when I heard about Sandro Nanini - but thank goodness this time the injury was not quite as bad as Sandro's. It was still a big one though. Who to Renault get in? Good question. Vitantonio Liuzzi is looking for work and no one seems to have mentioned him.

Please Renault, don't put Roooooooooommmmmmmooooooooonnnnnnnnn Grooooooooooooozzzzzzzzzzzzzjjjjjjjjjjjeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnn in the car as he is cack.

There is always Nelson Piquet JR - last I heard he was working at MacDonalds

Pommy Barsteward wrote:Hey everyone - Gary Slevin here, sometime contributor to F1 Rejects. I thought it was about time I started posting rather than lurking!

I was so sad when I heard about Robert. If they guy was to get a decent car under him, he would have a very good crack at the championship I am sure. Along with Hamilton and Alonso (the cheating Spaniard) he is the man on the track.

When I heard it reminded me of when I heard about Sandro Nanini - but thank goodness this time the injury was not quite as bad as Sandro's. It was still a big one though. Who to Renault get in? Good question. Vitantonio Liuzzi is looking for work and no one seems to have mentioned him.

Please Renault, don't put Roooooooooommmmmmmooooooooonnnnnnnnn Grooooooooooooozzzzzzzzzzzzzjjjjjjjjjjjeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnn in the car as he is cack.

There is always Nelson Piquet JR - last I heard he was working at MacDonalds

Welcome Gary, I'm sure everyone here appreciates a blast from the past! I remember reading the user submitted article a while back and I particularly liked the Ligier one. Clever choice of username as well...

Pommy Barsteward wrote:Hey everyone - Gary Slevin here, sometime contributor to F1 Rejects. I thought it was about time I started posting rather than lurking!

I was so sad when I heard about Robert. If they guy was to get a decent car under him, he would have a very good crack at the championship I am sure. Along with Hamilton and Alonso (the cheating Spaniard) he is the man on the track.

When I heard it reminded me of when I heard about Sandro Nanini - but thank goodness this time the injury was not quite as bad as Sandro's. It was still a big one though. Who to Renault get in? Good question. Vitantonio Liuzzi is looking for work and no one seems to have mentioned him.

Please Renault, don't put Roooooooooommmmmmmooooooooonnnnnnnnn Grooooooooooooozzzzzzzzzzzzzjjjjjjjjjjjeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnn in the car as he is cack.

There is always Nelson Piquet JR - last I heard he was working at MacDonalds

You're the guy who wrote the Brabham article aren't you, I really enjoyed reading that. Glad the accident is not as serious as Nannini's.

I'm not a doctor but I'm confident it's not gonna be two months. Lest we forget the actual doctors have said a year and he's also got several broken bones. Remember how long that put Schumi out of service?

redbulljack14 wrote:

Pommy Barsteward wrote:Hey everyone - Gary Slevin here, sometime contributor to F1 Rejects. I thought it was about time I started posting rather than lurking!

I was so sad when I heard about Robert. If they guy was to get a decent car under him, he would have a very good crack at the championship I am sure. Along with Hamilton and Alonso (the cheating Spaniard) he is the man on the track.

When I heard it reminded me of when I heard about Sandro Nanini - but thank goodness this time the injury was not quite as bad as Sandro's. It was still a big one though. Who to Renault get in? Good question. Vitantonio Liuzzi is looking for work and no one seems to have mentioned him.

Please Renault, don't put Roooooooooommmmmmmooooooooonnnnnnnnn Grooooooooooooozzzzzzzzzzzzzjjjjjjjjjjjeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnn in the car as he is cack.

There is always Nelson Piquet JR - last I heard he was working at MacDonalds

You're the guy who wrote the Brabham article aren't you, I really enjoyed reading that. Glad the accident is not as serious as Nannini's.

I am indeed he. And yes, that is Andrea Sassetti in my Avatar!

ElizabethSterling wrote:I'm not a doctor but I'm confident it's not gonna be two months. Lest we forget the actual doctors have said a year and he's also got several broken bones. Remember how long that put Schumi out of service?

Realistically, no-one knows. The speculation that it might be a few months seems like wishful thinking to me. I just hope he can make a recovery.

Meanwhile, Boullier has a big problem to sort out. They won't know how Robert is going to be for a couple of months at least. So do they replace him for the season, or not ? And who to replace him with? The current Renault reserves don't really seem up to the task.

Given that Petrov is not that experienced or consistent, they will need an experienced driver in the car who can help to develop it. But there are not too many choices. Liuzzi is not consistent either, so that rules him out. Probably Heidfeld is a safe choice. I would not rule out De La Rosa, who is at least an experienced development driver.

Maybe Giancarlo Fisicella, if he is fit. Knows Renault, good developer, and can win races in the right car. (Don't snigger.)

Or maybe do a deal with another team. Drop the case against the other Lotus for this year and take Kovalienen?

Actually, I think this increases the pressure on Petrov. If he does not perform in the first few races, then there will be pressure to replace him by a decent number two.

Or possibly, Lotus will be seduced by the idea of having that famous name driving the black and gold Lotus again. After all Nigel Mansell never retired and is due for a comeback. I'll bet he has been on the phone already.

People seem to be expecing a certain relative (not with the same genes unless something sick happened), to be in a car trying to be the team that the certain relative's certain relative had complete control over.

Lets see it happen.
Lets see how bad it will be.

I can't see them sticking with Bruno Senna - I have never thought he was that special. The way I see it, it is probably a good bet for them to take a risk on a young superstar in the making - take him on uber cheap and then use him to ditch Petrov mid season.

Surely Heidfeld can't come back again? What is the point of him?

As for De La Rosa - I lost all respect for him when I read the excellent book "Chequered Conflict". Aside from a good season with Arrows in the early noughties I have never rated him.

There is alway Jos the Boss of course!

Pommy Barsteward wrote:As for De La Rosa - I lost all respect for him when I read the excellent book "Chequered Conflict".

I lost all respect for him when he was part of the photocopier scandal that cost McLaren 50m quid, and somehow got away with being part of the problem.

JeremyMcClean wrote:If they say that he'll recover in two months, he should return only having missed two races. Only just.

He might be a little rusty in Malaysia, but hopefully he'll have a safe recovery and let's hope he puts his season back on track.

Two months? 60 days? It took Schumacher almost 100 days in 99. The same with Panis in 97, this was just broken bones. This is some broken bones and a hand that they still don't know if will work well in the future.

Regarding the replacement driver. It should be Senna.

ADx_Wales wrote:

Pommy Barsteward wrote:As for De La Rosa - I lost all respect for him when I read the excellent book "Chequered Conflict".

I lost all respect for him when he was part of the photocopier scandal that cost McLaren 50m quid, and somehow got away with being part of the problem.

Him and a certain double wdc... *cough*

Anyway, I think their best bet is Hulkenburg but they may have to settle for quick-Nick. I doubt Kimi is coming in, he's already said he's not interested more than once.

Anyone for Ralf Schumacher as Renault replacement driver? Please come over here.

Come on, someone must think this is a good idea ... aside from me.

Anyone?..

Count on my vote!

I didn't have time to read this thread while it was still serious. Anyone care to tell me who is in line for his seat in the Renault now?

I heard last night from a friend at Lotus Renaul that Kubica's drive is up for sale to the highest bidder.

Faustus wrote:I heard last night from a friend at Lotus Renaul that Kubica's drive is up for sale to the highest bidder.

Perfect...

Senna has a good chance then, if he still has Embratel and co, that is.

Jeroen Krautmeir wrote:

Faustus wrote:I heard last night from a friend at Lotus Renaul that Kubica's drive is up for sale to the highest bidder.

Perfect...

Senna has a good chance then, if he still has Embratel and co, that is.

Well, he has a decent history of not scratching the paint, so that's a start. He's got the cash, which is a good way in. God damn it, why can't Karun Chandhok have a few million more dollars behind him?

In a discussion with "Wizzie" via another medium yesterday, the following information came to light

" According to wikipedia they have Senna, Grsjn, Fauzy, Tung and Jan Charouz on their books".

Plenty to choose from apart from Heidfeld (hoping for some role with Merc.), DLR (currently contracted to Pirelli), HULK (supposedly signed to F-India), Liuzzi (Ditto-ish) & Ralf...probably too past his best years now.
Chandhok is to run for Fernandes' team in the next tests, with an eye to a test/reserve role.
There is a solution to the F-India/Liuzzi problem in that either HULK or Liuzzi, probably the latter, could be farmed out to Renault thus minimising any contractual dispute between F-I & Tonio. Liuzzi would be happy to do so, it would be a huge opprtunity for him, just as it is for Petrov.....

The prognosis with regard to Kubica appears good but instinct says the quoted "couple of months" is probably optimistic/best case scenario....rushing back when not fully fit (both hand & general physique) will not do his long term career much good probably.

Faustus wrote:I heard last night from a friend at Lotus Renaul that Kubica's drive is up for sale to the highest bidder.

I can't believe this, they seem to have a sort-of-2009 Brawnish-"geniious"-car at hand and sell it to the highest bidder????
how stupid would that be?

I think they'll look to employ an experienced driver like Pedro of the Rose or Nick Heidfeld.
Performance-wise, Nick should get the seat.

But giving what looks like a rocket into the hands of a rookie or a quasi-rookie sounds totally moronic.
Well, what's to expect from a team owned by a hedge-fund and sponsored by a company with obivous Megalomania (Bahar-Lotus, that is).

europeanminardi wrote:But giving what looks like a rocket into the hands of a rookie or a quasi-rookie sounds totally moronic.

Williams did it with Hill, Coulthard, Villeneuve and Montoya while McLaren did it with Hamilton...

Wizzie wrote:Williams did it with Hill, Coulthard, Villeneuve and Montoya while McLaren did it with Hamilton...

But the thing is, aside from Coulthard (which would not have been too likely if Senna hadn't kicked the bucket) they always had a more experienced driver alongside to go with it. Hill had Prost, Villeneuve had Hill who by that time had run three seasons, two of which he was in the title battle and Montoya had Schumacher with him. Petrov, while without a shadow of a doubt talented, just lacks the experience to play that role.

Wizzie wrote:

europeanminardi wrote:But giving what looks like a rocket into the hands of a rookie or a quasi-rookie sounds totally moronic.

Williams did it with Hill, Coulthard, Villeneuve and Montoya while McLaren did it with Hamilton...

If it's a promising rookie like the ones Wizzie mentioned... Grrrrrjjjjnnnnn was once seen like one. Senna stepped too soon into F1 and the others, well, are promising rejects. Having said that I hope Ho-Pin Tung gets the seat!

europeanminardi wrote:

Faustus wrote:I heard last night from a friend at Lotus Renaul that Kubica's drive is up for sale to the highest bidder.

I can't believe this, they seem to have a sort-of-2009 Brawnish-"geniious"-car at hand and sell it to the highest bidder????
how stupid would that be?

I think they'll look to employ an experienced driver like Pedro of the Rose or Nick Heidfeld.
Performance-wise, Nick should get the seat.

But giving what looks like a rocket into the hands of a rookie or a quasi-rookie sounds totally moronic.
Well, what's to expect from a team owned by a hedge-fund and sponsored by a company with obivous Megalomania (Bahar-Lotus, that is).

It's debatable whether the car is actually that good - for example, Wirth was talking about the forward exiting exhausts, and said that Virgin Racing did simulate what would happen. He reckoned, though, that although you could gain some aerodynamic benefit, it would be very challenging to direct a 600-800ºC exhaust pipe around the fuel tank, wiring looms and radiators. The other big problem would be the side impact structures, which are normally integrated into the sidepods - routing the exhausts past that, and convincing the FIA that there was no additional side impact risk from the exhausts, would be difficult. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/89333

The other catch is that the first test is not a particularly good guide to the form book in 2011. After all, Kubica was driving that car on a much more rubbered in track (crucial when it is clear that the Pirelli tyres are fragile), and he set his best time during a short stint (on the third lap of a five lap stint). Over a longer stint (in excess of 20 laps), Kubica's times were solid, but not spectacular - his average lap times were slightly slower than Schumacher (although they didn't very as much), and his performance dipped quite sharply at the end of that stint (whereas Schumacher's didn't drop off so noticeably). So, I will be cautious for now and say that whilst the R31 is perhaps more competitive than the R30, the verdict is still out on whether it really is the best car in the field.

Wizzie wrote:

europeanminardi wrote:But giving what looks like a rocket into the hands of a rookie or a quasi-rookie sounds totally moronic.

Williams did it with Hill, Coulthard, Villeneuve and Montoya while McLaren did it with Hamilton...

But most of those drivers were not that inexperienced - Hill and Coulthard had started off at test drivers, and Hamilton did a bit of testing for Mclaren in the off season (as he was lucky to come in just before the full testing ban kicked in). Jacques, too, spent quite a bit of the 1995 season testing; only Montoya really entered the sport as a relative rookie, and it showed (he took three 2nd places and one win, but was still beaten by his team mate, Ralf Schumacher, who took three wins, one 2nd and one 3rd, and Ralf finished with 49 points to Montoya's 31). So, although a rookie driver might be capable of coming into the sport and doing well, the past examples were in cases where either the driver was very talented or had an opportunity to test the car several months ahead of the start of the season.

So, I agree that the most sensible thing to do would be to put an experienced driver into the seat at the moment - the team needs a reliable driver around whom they can rally in the same way that they did with Kubica. Heidfeld is a name that has come up a few times recently, and he would probably be a good replacement - recent experience in Formula 1, a good reputation for bringing the car home whatever the conditions and keeping it out of the walls, and although not the most spectacular driver, he is a solid performer, and probably capable of pushing forward development of the R31.
De La Rosa, meanwhile, would certainly have the experience, but there would be the problem of his contract with Pirelli, and Liuzzi (another name that has been mentioned), although having the experience, would need to work on his consistency to be in with a shot of that seat.

However, I can believe that the team would offer the seat to the highest bidder on the market. After all, Genii Capital had said last year that they had gone over budget, so they would be looking go recover some of the money spent last year, and pretty much all of the teams down from Mercedes are running pay drivers.

I have to agree with the sentiment that it would be a bad idea to give the seat to a driver with more money than talent, though. Whilst a pay driver may bring in money, in the long term they don't always bring in the results, and without points, you tend to end up sliding back down the grid - but it depends on whether the team is thinking about the short or long term.