Grand Prix Rejects

Shizuka wrote:

Backmarker wrote:One of the openings at Toro Rosso will be filled by Antonio Felix da Costa.

And seeing Ricciardo testing for Red Bull kinda hints who's about to be booted off.

Unless Vergne will test for Red Bull at some point. However, I think that Ricciardo is the naturally quicker driver and that his Australian links are the main reasons for being selected by Red Bull first. You also have to consider that Vergne's only Q3 appearances so far, crucial to scoring big points were in the wet and if he was qualifying in the dry in those races, he would have been beaten by Daniel again.

But ultimately, whether it be Ricciardo, Raikkonen or Vergne, no-one should be too excited about who gets the Red Bull seat, because in the wake of the new regulations Red Bull could end up producing a dog of a car that is no better than, say, a Toro Rosso and the massive build-up to the season opener would be all for absolutely nothing. The new no.2 could be looking good to score podiums and wins but ends up struggling to even score points because of his machinery.

Backmarker wrote:2) Robin Frijns rejected the opportunity to become a Red Bull Junior earlier in his career because of how they treated their juniors, so I don't think he'll want to step in at Toro Rosso. One of the openings at Toro Rosso will be filled by Antonio Felix da Costa. I don't think that Sainz or Kvyat are ready for a seat in F1 in 2014. Johnny Cecotto has links to Horner at the moment, could pay for a seat, and there won't be any objections when he gets dropped at the end of the season!

I think Sainz being just .044 off Ricciardo in the YDT shows he'd like to disagree with you.

good_Ralf wrote:

Zetec wrote:I think if Gutierrez keeps up the pace he has now until the rest of the year, he's out of F1 by the end of the season.
He now really has to show, that he can keep up with Hülkenberg.

Totally agreed. He really isn't a winning driver and has mostly been in F1 as a pay driver. But his performance in Barcelona, now matter how fluky it was, was spectacular and easily the best of his short career. When he led, I thought he was a lapped car, but when the graphic said 1 - GUT, I was astonished and even more happy when he stayed out and led multiple laps before his first stop. Ultimately he thoroughly challenged Ricciardo's STR for the last point and just fell short.

Part of Gutierrez' problem is that he is:
a) a pay driver (and seen as a weaker version of Perez)
b) there are a LOT of potential newcomers and very few seats available
That man gets lost in the shuffle and Sauber having an off year so far will hurt him. I agree that he needs one excellent result. Really excellent otherwise, like quite a few others, he is racing for his career.

EDIT
As for Toro Rosso, it does look like Da Costa is a natural fit. No idea who the other will be. Also, Verge is still highly regarded and has been pushing (and was pushed by) Ricciardo. In a way they made each other, so if Ricciardo is fancied by Red Bull, Verge will at least be considered by a team in need of a fast driver. Ferrari should have a seat open and they surely would not object to Verge's quality or experience.

Sublime_FA11C wrote:

Backmarker wrote:2) Robin Frijns rejected the opportunity to become a Red Bull Junior earlier in his career because of how they treated their juniors, so I don't think he'll want to step in at Toro Rosso. One of the openings at Toro Rosso will be filled by Antonio Felix da Costa. I don't think that Sainz or Kvyat are ready for a seat in F1 in 2014. Johnny Cecotto has links to Horner at the moment, could pay for a seat, and there won't be any objections when he gets dropped at the end of the season!

I think Sainz being just .044 off Ricciardo in the YDT shows he'd like to disagree with you.

Because testing times are so much better than form in junior series at judging driver talent.

They are if you are so close to a man gunning for Webber's seat. Of course, the reason could also be various upgrades that Sainz would be allowed to have on his car. But even then, it's not a bad impression to make when it's your first time in an F1 car.

good_Ralf wrote:

Shizuka wrote:

Backmarker wrote:One of the openings at Toro Rosso will be filled by Antonio Felix da Costa.

And seeing Ricciardo testing for Red Bull kinda hints who's about to be booted off.

Unless Vergne will test for Red Bull at some point. However, I think that Ricciardo is the naturally quicker driver and that his Australian links are the main reasons for being selected by Red Bull first. You also have to consider that Vergne's only Q3 appearances so far, crucial to scoring big points were in the wet and if he was qualifying in the dry in those races, he would have been beaten by Daniel again.

But ultimately, whether it be Ricciardo, Raikkonen or Vergne, no-one should be too excited about who gets the Red Bull seat, because in the wake of the new regulations Red Bull could end up producing a dog of a car that is no better than, say, a Toro Rosso and the massive build-up to the season opener would be all for absolutely nothing. The new no.2 could be looking good to score podiums and wins but ends up struggling to even score points because of his machinery.

Horner seems to have ruled out Vergne in a recent interview during the Young Driver test, indicating that the decision is between Ricciardo and Kimi for the second seat at Red Bull. That would also suggest that the chances of Vergne being offered a test with Red Bull are likely to be low if he is not in consideration for drive there at the moment.

good_Ralf wrote:

Shizuka wrote:

Backmarker wrote:One of the openings at Toro Rosso will be filled by Antonio Felix da Costa.

And seeing Ricciardo testing for Red Bull kinda hints who's about to be booted off.

Unless Vergne will test for Red Bull at some point. However, I think that Ricciardo is the naturally quicker driver and that his Australian links are the main reasons for being selected by Red Bull first. You also have to consider that Vergne's only Q3 appearances so far, crucial to scoring big points were in the wet and if he was qualifying in the dry in those races, he would have been beaten by Daniel again.

But ultimately, whether it be Ricciardo, Raikkonen or Vergne, no-one should be too excited about who gets the Red Bull seat, because in the wake of the new regulations Red Bull could end up producing a dog of a car that is no better than, say, a Toro Rosso and the massive build-up to the season opener would be all for absolutely nothing. The new no.2 could be looking good to score podiums and wins but ends up struggling to even score points because of his machinery.

No one paid attention to that. There will be peaks and troughs and in my view if any rule changes are going to unsettle Red Bull from the top it will be these ones. The Second Red Bull Drive might turn out to be an absolutely meaningless move if the rule changes go against them like you said. Kimi might not need to move to Red Bull because Lotus look like their staying with Renault power which is believed to be Inferior to the Mercedes and Ferrari units next season.

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:Lotus look like their staying with Renault power which is believed to be Inferior to the Mercedes and Ferrari units next season.

None of the engines have even seen a car yet, how can you say the Renault engine will be worse?

Shadaza wrote:

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:Lotus look like their staying with Renault power which is believed to be Inferior to the Mercedes and Ferrari units next season.

None of the engines have even seen a car yet, how can you say the Renault engine will be worse?

It's just what most people believe will happen. probably a way to overhype 2014

I'd love to see Red Bull struggle in 2014, with Porsche's Endurance Series car doing brilliantly.

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:

Shadaza wrote:

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:Lotus look like their staying with Renault power which is believed to be Inferior to the Mercedes and Ferrari units next season.

None of the engines have even seen a car yet, how can you say the Renault engine will be worse?

It's just what most people believe will happen. probably a way to overhype 2014

... based on bathplugging WHAT!?

andrew2209 wrote:I'd love to see Red Bull struggle in 2014, with Porsche's Endurance Series car doing brilliantly.

After all, rule changes have flipped over hierachies. Just look at Williams in 1994, Ferrari in 2005 or McLaren in 2009. Next year we could easily see history repeat itself.
Best not talk about this all the time, or it might not happen and the "Curse of the F1 Rejects Forum users predictions" will come into existence.

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:

Shadaza wrote:

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:Lotus look like their staying with Renault power which is believed to be Inferior to the Mercedes and Ferrari units next season.

None of the engines have even seen a car yet, how can you say the Renault engine will be worse?

It's just what most people believe will happen. probably a way to overhype 2014

Salamander wrote:... based on bathplugging WHAT!?

As far as I can tell, there is no real information at all that could conclusively prove anything about the Renault turbo engine and its relative performance compared to the other two manufacturers currently in the sport. The only reasons why I think some might expect the Renault to be weaker would be budget - there are a few indications that Renault have operated on a slightly more modest budget than their rivals, though no clear indication of overall expenditure has yet emerged - and the fact that Renault have hinted that their engine might not rev to 15,000 rpm (although that seems to be because the fuel flow limits make it unattractive to use the full rev range, as the cap on fuel use at high rpm's limits the effective power output).

mario wrote:

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:Lotus look like their staying with Renault power which is believed to be Inferior to the Mercedes and Ferrari units next season.

Shadaza wrote:None of the engines have even seen a car yet, how can you say the Renault engine will be worse?

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:It's just what most people believe will happen. probably a way to overhype 2014

Salamander wrote:... based on bathplugging WHAT!?

As far as I can tell, there is no real information at all that could conclusively prove anything about the Renault turbo engine and its relative performance compared to the other two manufacturers currently in the sport. The only reasons why I think some might expect the Renault to be weaker would be budget - there are a few indications that Renault have operated on a slightly more modest budget than their rivals, though no clear indication of overall expenditure has yet emerged - and the fact that Renault have hinted that their engine might not rev to 15,000 rpm (although that seems to be because the fuel flow limits make it unattractive to use the full rev range, as the cap on fuel use at high rpm's limits the effective power output).

They're all fools, everyone knows that Craig Cod was going to build the best engine.

I know we're going off topic here, but I can't see the rule changes pegging back Red Bull let much for one simple reason: they have Adrian Newey. He'll get the best out of any rule changes and push the boundaries for sure. In terms of engines, its been a long time since its really mattered that much about what engine a car has as its the rules are so precise there's very little chance for one engine manufacturer to extract any significant advantage over another.

watka wrote:I know we're going off topic here, but I can't see the rule changes pegging back Red Bull let much for one simple reason: they have Adrian Newey. He'll get the best out of any rule changes and push the boundaries for sure. In terms of engines, its been a long time since its really mattered that much about what engine a car has as its the rules are so precise there's very little chance for one engine manufacturer to extract any significant advantage over another.

Then Jamie and Enoch should write an article named "Why Red Bull are going to dominate in 2014"...

good_Ralf wrote:

watka wrote:I know we're going off topic here, but I can't see the rule changes pegging back Red Bull let much for one simple reason: they have Adrian Newey. He'll get the best out of any rule changes and push the boundaries for sure. In terms of engines, its been a long time since its really mattered that much about what engine a car has as its the rules are so precise there's very little chance for one engine manufacturer to extract any significant advantage over another.

Then Jamie and Enoch should write an article named "Why Red Bull are going to dominate in 2014"...

We don't know what's going to happen in 2014 so why is there any point writing an article concerning next season. And why is it being aimed at Red Bull again? It's not their fault Mercedes eat their tires for breakfast nor is it their fault that Ferrari and Lotus can't qualify well. It's not their fault that Mclaren built a crap car this season. Did you see Christian Horner take Martin Whitmarsh into a dark room and beat him until Whitmarsh agreed to build a crap car? No you didn't. It's downright disrespectful in my view.

watka wrote:I know we're going off topic here, but I can't see the rule changes pegging back Red Bull let much for one simple reason: they have Adrian Newey. He'll get the best out of any rule changes and push the boundaries for sure.

Well you say that and I wouldnt disagree Newey is one of the best but he doesnt have an instantaneous Midas touch, he has to work at it as much as the rest. Other designers have created championship winning cars in the last decade it just seems that Newey manages continuity and momentum better.

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:We don't know what's going to happen in 2014 so why is there any point writing an article concerning next season. And why is it being aimed at Red Bull again? It's not their fault Mercedes eat their tires for breakfast nor is it their fault that Ferrari and Lotus can't qualify well. It's not their fault that Mclaren built a crap car this season. Did you see Christian Horner take Martin Whitmarsh into a dark room and beat him until Whitmarsh agreed to build a crap car? No you didn't. It's downright disrespectful in my view.

Apologies if I was taking the Mika out of Red Bull.

CoopsII wrote:

watka wrote:I know we're going off topic here, but I can't see the rule changes pegging back Red Bull let much for one simple reason: they have Adrian Newey. He'll get the best out of any rule changes and push the boundaries for sure.

Well you say that and I wouldnt disagree Newey is one of the best but he doesnt have an instantaneous Midas touch, he has to work at it as much as the rest. Other designers have created championship winning cars in the last decade it just seems that Newey manages continuity and momentum better.

Newey's cars tend to start with a lot of potential in them but usually they need a year or two to dominate. This may not be the case next year because he will not be switching teams. In 2009 Red Bull took the fight to Brawn towards the later part of the season. It's realistic to expect the RBX to be quite good in 2014 maybe even right away. But even if they struggle early on, they should recover very quickly as they finetune the car.

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:We don't know what's going to happen in 2014 so why is there any point writing an article concerning next season. And why is it being aimed at Red Bull again? It's not their fault Mercedes eat their tires for breakfast nor is it their fault that Ferrari and Lotus can't qualify well. It's not their fault that Mclaren built a crap car this season. Did you see Christian Horner take Martin Whitmarsh into a dark room and beat him until Whitmarsh agreed to build a crap car? No you didn't. It's downright disrespectful in my view.

Wow, you've changed your tune. I guess we won't hear "Whine Bull" then anytime soon...

Ataxia wrote:

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:We don't know what's going to happen in 2014 so why is there any point writing an article concerning next season. And why is it being aimed at Red Bull again? It's not their fault Mercedes eat their tires for breakfast nor is it their fault that Ferrari and Lotus can't qualify well. It's not their fault that Mclaren built a crap car this season. Did you see Christian Horner take Martin Whitmarsh into a dark room and beat him until Whitmarsh agreed to build a crap car? No you didn't. It's downright disrespectful in my view.

Wow, you've changed your tune. I guess we won't hear "Whine Bull" then anytime soon...

If it means we won't hear 'Whine Bull', then it's fine with me.

Ataxia wrote:

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:We don't know what's going to happen in 2014 so why is there any point writing an article concerning next season. And why is it being aimed at Red Bull again? It's not their fault Mercedes eat their tires for breakfast nor is it their fault that Ferrari and Lotus can't qualify well. It's not their fault that Mclaren built a crap car this season. Did you see Christian Horner take Martin Whitmarsh into a dark room and beat him until Whitmarsh agreed to build a crap car? No you didn't. It's downright disrespectful in my view.

Wow, you've changed your tune. I guess we won't hear "Whine Bull" then anytime soon...

Maybe his username wasn't the only thing that changed...

Sublime_FA11C wrote:

CoopsII wrote:

watka wrote:I know we're going off topic here, but I can't see the rule changes pegging back Red Bull let much for one simple reason: they have Adrian Newey. He'll get the best out of any rule changes and push the boundaries for sure.

Well you say that and I wouldnt disagree Newey is one of the best but he doesnt have an instantaneous Midas touch, he has to work at it as much as the rest. Other designers have created championship winning cars in the last decade it just seems that Newey manages continuity and momentum better.

Newey's cars tend to start with a lot of potential in them but usually they need a year or two to dominate. This may not be the case next year because he will not be switching teams. In 2009 Red Bull took the fight to Brawn towards the later part of the season. It's realistic to expect the RBX to be quite good in 2014 maybe even right away. But even if they struggle early on, they should recover very quickly as they finetune the car.

He is not a sure bet, he has done it once for Williams and now for Red Bull but the McLaren story was very different. He had some outright dogs and the MPs he built never achieved quite such dominance as the FWs and RBs. Instead Ferrari was able to dominate for years so let's see.

Actuallly Ferrari tend to be the worst at adapting to new regulations. Unless they have a brilliant person in the team such as Brawn or Schumacher and even then there's hiccups. Ever since 09 their cars have never quite been on the money and some were very poor. And in 09 it was Brawn that got it right out of the gate and Newey who had to work and refine before Red Bull ascended towards the end of the season.

But back when they managed to end their looong dry streak and win a title Ferrari did rewrite the book of F1 domination. Some Neweys cars during that time were not quite there but often McLaren was the team to chase the Ferrari, it's just that Ferrari galloped away early on and was untouchable by mid season. One of the people blamed for this was Newey because his machines could be "too fancy" or too tricky to get setup right in time despite having the pace in them. Somewhere.

But i belive Red Bull as a team work very well and bring the best out of him. I would be very surprised if they outright blew it in 2014. They have not lost sight of the fact that despite seeming to dominate like Ferrari did some 10 years ago, Red Bull faces stiffer competition and their rivals are closer, they just find ways to completely self destruct. Mercedes is a very fast car and would be a terror in a past era but eats through tyres on high fuel loads, Lotus is a match for them this year but is apparently less organised and the car is not as flexible so they sometimes drift away. Ferrari lacks a Newey of their own but when the car is within a mile Alonso can deliver it to within an inch of threatening RB. McLaren is slow out of the gate but seems to develop faster than any team during the season. The threats to RB are there, but they end up on top because they screw up the least and make the most out of evey success.

By comparison, Ferrari back in it's day would stomp the competition on day one and everyone but them would go back to the drawing board and look towards next year. So i agree that it's not a given that Newey's solution will be the best, and quite likely that RBX will start as a vulnerability. Unfortunately for those sick of Red Bull winning all the time, it will be up to their rivals to make the most of this vulnerability and their recent track record is one of snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory...

Sublime_FA11C wrote:Actuallly Ferrari tend to be the worst at adapting to new regulations. Unless they have a brilliant person in the team such as Brawn or Schumacher and even then there's hiccups. Ever since 09 their cars have never quite been on the money and some were very poor. And in 09 it was Brawn that got it right out of the gate and Newey who had to work and refine before Red Bull ascended towards the end of the season.

But back when they managed to end their looong dry streak and win a title Ferrari did rewrite the book of F1 domination. Some Neweys cars during that time were not quite there but often McLaren was the team to chase the Ferrari, it's just that Ferrari galloped away early on and was untouchable by mid season. One of the people blamed for this was Newey because his machines could be "too fancy" or too tricky to get setup right in time despite having the pace in them. Somewhere.

I would suggest that part of the reason for that was that, whilst Newey may have concentrated on producing the outright fastest car possible, Byrne and his design team at Ferrari tended to concentrate on the fastest usable car that he could produce.

One example of that might be their attitude to exhaust placement - Ferrari were one of the earliest to switch to periscope exhausts, back in 1998, when they found that, although the inability to use the exhaust gasses to seal the diffuser resulted in a loss in downforce, the shorter exhausts could be tuned for improved engine performance and the much tighter rear bodywork that could be developed by routing the exhausts upwards offset the loss of downforce from exhaust blowing. There was also the advantage that the amount of downforce produced was not as throttle sensitive as in the blown diffuser scenario, so the driver would not have to deal with a shifting handling balance as the rear downforce fluctuated.
It wasn't until 2002 that Newey eventually followed suit, despite Hakkinen and Coulthard complaining for years that Newey's exhaust blowing scheme was upsetting the handling of the car and made it hard for them to maximise its potential. Even then, Newey only made the change because Mercedes-Ilmor had developed a new engine where it was no longer possible for him to blow the diffuser as the exhausts were now different.

As you say, at the moment Red Bull have structured their team in a way that allows Newey to develop the cars in the way he likes, and the design team is quite well rounded overall. That said, equally the team are a little lucky that their rivals have tended to screw up a little, such as with Mercedes's persistent tyre problems or McLaren's inability to produce a reliable, quick car right out of the box (either they develop into a strong car, but are having to chase a large deficit, or, as in 2012, they have a quick car to begin with but reliability and strategic errors wrecked their hopes).
Looking at 2014, though, Mercedes might be a slight threat to Red Bull because Pirelli have indicated that, due to the much higher torque output of the new turbo engines, the change in weight distribution and the need for the teams to adapt to the new regulations, that they intend to produce a much more conservative tyre for 2014. If that is the case, then Mercedes might no longer be quite so badly handicapped by tyre wear problems as they are now, although whether their aero package can be competitive enough (I assume that the Mercedes engine will still be reasonably competitive and not that much of a performance differentiator) remains to be seen.

http://www.handelszeitung.ch/unternehme ... all-491677

Roughly translated with google:

The Formula 1 team Sauber isn't saved despite public pronouncements. Sauber announced in mid-August that "first payments??" by the new Russian partners were made. But the creditors still haven't seen any money of it, such as searches of "commercial paper" has shown.

Constantly new payment orders against the company arrive at Hinwil. 19 new creditors have initiated the foreclosure. The new creditor are enforcing together a quarter of a million francs.

Of the existing creditors only four have recieved money. A spokesman for Sauber says: "We have communicated that we are in a challenging situation.» The extract from the debt register contains 43 prosecutions. At the same time the Sauber-speaker emphasizes, that it was never intended that the Russian partners' purchase shares in the company. The new partnerships is a way to win Russian sponsor's, not to get any money.

As a explanation: every Swiss citizen has the right to look up the debt register, if a company or a private person has any enforcements. So this is a fact, not a rumour (I've checked it myself). And I'm honestly quite tired of Sauber, with their repeating statement, that it's not true!

They've dropped Frijns. Ridijculous.

apple2009 wrote:They've dropped Frijns. Ridijculous.

What has Robin Frijns got to do just to get a drive in GP2 let alone F1?

Here's Vijay Mallya's view on pay drivers

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109636

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:

apple2009 wrote:They've dropped Frijns. Ridijculous.

What has Robin Frijns got to do just to get a drive in GP2 let alone F1?

Here's Vijay Mallya's view on pay drivers

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109636

Unfortunately, Frijns will need to find enough cash to sweeten the deal if he wants to find a seat in GP2 again, let alone F1 - talent alone may not be enough.

Mind you, when the majority of the grid are either making losses or breaking even, pay drivers become a necessary evil in that sense - even some of the major drivers in the sport have had their careers partially influenced by sponsors (Alonso's move to Ferrari was allegedly smoothed over by Santander, for example). With costs set to continue rising with the new engines in 2014, a sluggish global economy and uncertainty over Bernie's position within FOM, not to mention the major teams continuing to take the lions share of the TV rights, short term cash flow is going to remain the overriding concern for most of the grid.

It could become the Formula 1 Pay Drivers World Championship!
In theory, Grosjean leads this year's championship.

apple2009 wrote:They've dropped Frijns. Ridijculous.

Seriously, he deserves his break, and due to money, he can't get it...

Frijns goes to Catherham or STR , or Option 2 he will drive next year a full season in the GP2 with a test contract from williams, just a wild guess, bassed on info i heared from people around him

mario wrote:Mind you, when the majority of the grid are either making losses or breaking even, pay drivers become a necessary evil in that sense - even some of the major drivers in the sport have had their careers partially influenced by sponsors (Alonso's move to Ferrari was allegedly smoothed over by Santander, for example). With costs set to continue rising with the new engines in 2014, a sluggish global economy and uncertainty over Bernie's position within FOM, not to mention the major teams continuing to take the lions share of the TV rights, short term cash flow is going to remain the overriding concern for most of the grid.

But it's actually pretty funny, that even Narain Karthikeyan, who did everything possible to stay in F1, says now, that he would not drive as a pay-driver again in F1. He claims, that the money he was being asked to bring in is just ridiculously high (some sources suggest that the deal with Marussia this year did not happen because they wanted over 12 millions $.)
Well, it shows, that the teams are really in need of some cash now.

Zetec wrote:

mario wrote:Mind you, when the majority of the grid are either making losses or breaking even, pay drivers become a necessary evil in that sense - even some of the major drivers in the sport have had their careers partially influenced by sponsors (Alonso's move to Ferrari was allegedly smoothed over by Santander, for example). With costs set to continue rising with the new engines in 2014, a sluggish global economy and uncertainty over Bernie's position within FOM, not to mention the major teams continuing to take the lions share of the TV rights, short term cash flow is going to remain the overriding concern for most of the grid.

But it's actually pretty funny, that even Narain Karthikeyan, who did everything possible to stay in F1, says now, that he would not drive as a pay-driver again in F1. He claims, that the money he was being asked to bring in is just ridiculously high (some sources suggest that the deal with Marussia this year did not happen because they wanted over 12 millions $.)
Well, it shows, that the teams are really in need of some cash now.

Commas, commas, everywhere.

apple2009 wrote:

Zetec wrote:But it's actually pretty funny, that even Narain Karthikeyan, who did everything possible to stay in F1, says now, that he would not drive as a pay-driver again in F1. He claims, that the money he was being asked to bring in is just ridiculously high (some sources suggest that the deal with Marussia this year did not happen because they wanted over 12 millions $.)
Well, it shows, that the teams are really in need of some cash now.

Commas, commas, everywhere.

It's far, far better than going the opposite way, at least.

apple2009 wrote:

Zetec wrote:

mario wrote:Mind you, when the majority of the grid are either making losses or breaking even, pay drivers become a necessary evil in that sense - even some of the major drivers in the sport have had their careers partially influenced by sponsors (Alonso's move to Ferrari was allegedly smoothed over by Santander, for example). With costs set to continue rising with the new engines in 2014, a sluggish global economy and uncertainty over Bernie's position within FOM, not to mention the major teams continuing to take the lions share of the TV rights, short term cash flow is going to remain the overriding concern for most of the grid.

But it's actually pretty funny, that even Narain Karthikeyan, who did everything possible to stay in F1, says now, that he would not drive as a pay-driver again in F1. He claims, that the money he was being asked to bring in is just ridiculously high (some sources suggest that the deal with Marussia this year did not happen because they wanted over 12 millions $.)
Well, it shows, that the teams are really in need of some cash now.

Commas, commas, everywhere.

Did someone mention Erik Comas?

Zetec wrote:But it's actually pretty funny, that even Narain Karthikeyan, who did everything possible to stay in F1, says now, that he would not drive as a pay-driver again in F1. He claims, that the money he was being asked to bring in is just ridiculously high (some sources suggest that the deal with Marussia this year did not happen because they wanted over 12 millions $.)
Well, it shows, that the teams are really in need of some cash now.

Plus, there's the inescapable fact that Cucumber is still in with a chance of winning the Auto GP championship. One race weekend to go, with two races, he's 21 points behind with 45 to be scored... I'm off to Ladbrokes with a tenner, I'll be back in a mo.

apple2009 wrote:Commas, commas, everywhere.

...and not a drop to drink.

dinizintheoven wrote:Plus, there's the inescapable fact that Cucumber is still in with a chance of winning the Auto GP championship. One race weekend to go, with two races, he's 21 points behind with 45 to be scored... I'm off to Ladbrokes with a tenner, I'll be back in a mo.

Deposit that tenner on Ladbrokes online if you haven't registered, you'll get £30 worth of free bets after (£10 x 3, one a week)

apple2009 wrote:

Zetec wrote:

mario wrote:Mind you, when the majority of the grid are either making losses or breaking even, pay drivers become a necessary evil in that sense - even some of the major drivers in the sport have had their careers partially influenced by sponsors (Alonso's move to Ferrari was allegedly smoothed over by Santander, for example). With costs set to continue rising with the new engines in 2014, a sluggish global economy and uncertainty over Bernie's position within FOM, not to mention the major teams continuing to take the lions share of the TV rights, short term cash flow is going to remain the overriding concern for most of the grid.

But it's actually pretty funny, that even Narain Karthikeyan, who did everything possible to stay in F1, says now, that he would not drive as a pay-driver again in F1. He claims, that the money he was being asked to bring in is just ridiculously high (some sources suggest that the deal with Marussia this year did not happen because they wanted over 12 millions $.)
Well, it shows, that the teams are really in need of some cash now.

Commas, commas, everywhere.

I'm sorry. We use quite alot of commas in german. If it's a problem for you guys then I'm off here.