Grand Prix Rejects

Posted: **13 Jul 2016, 13:11**

Gutierrez moving to Mercedes.

I'm standing up.

Posted: **13 Jul 2016, 18:25**

Esteban Gutiérrez wrote: That is...a...very...interesting question...*Grins from ear to ear* I know where I'm going. I know what I'm doing, but I can't say anything yet

Posted: **22 Jul 2016, 07:05**

Rosberg to stay put.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/36864370

Posted: **22 Jul 2016, 12:18**

And Alonso continues his "This is not F1 anymore" theme with the double edged intention of motivating Honda and, perhaps, beginning a face-saving exit strategy.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/36859421

I'm sure it would feel more like F1 if he was winning.....

Posted: **22 Jul 2016, 14:52**

I said at the time, he should have used either his accident at Australia this year or in testing last year as excuses to retire. I love Alonso, but he's wasting his time. He doesn't need to prove his worth in a backmarker team - I'd think most people already appreciate his worth. He won't get any reward from his current efforts because McLaren-Honda will take too long to get back to the front for him (of course assuming they get back to the front).

Posted: **24 Jul 2016, 14:26**

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vandoorne-in-frame-for-haryantos-manor-seat-801832/

It seems a bit improbable, but if the above article isn't just fluff, we may yet see Vandoorne racing in 2016... In a Manor!

Posted: **24 Jul 2016, 18:47**

I have no problem with this.

Sorry Rio

Posted: **25 Jul 2016, 18:00**

I read this some days ago. Looks like Petrobras wants to sponsor and supply a second team and could be Toro Rosso.

This could boost the chances of Red Bull junior driver Sette Camara in getting a seat in the future. Although Gasly is the obvious first choice, he could be the second one.

Posted: **26 Jul 2016, 07:48**

Vandoorne and Wehrlein in the Manor would give the team the latest most exciting driver line up since Max switched to Red Bull. I want this now! Even if it means saying goodbye to Rio.

Posted: **26 Jul 2016, 10:02**

BigG80 wrote:Vandoorne and Wehrlein in the Manor would give the team the latest most exciting driver line up since Max switched to Red Bull. I want this now! Even if it means saying goodbye to Rio.

Rio will be back. Who could look past the most talented driver in Formula 1 in recent memory? The last time I got this excited about a driver was when Nicolas Kiesa rolled onto the grid! :vergne:

Posted: **26 Jul 2016, 12:51**

BigG80 wrote:Vandoorne and Wehrlein in the Manor would give the team the latest most exciting driver line up since Max switched to Red Bull. I want this now! Even if it means saying goodbye to Rio.

It's quite staggering really but, as you say, Manor would end up having the most promising driver line-up of any team on the grid, IMO.

Posted: **26 Jul 2016, 13:27**

It appears that DK's not going to be retained by Red Bull next season. Must be absolutely galling for the guy, especially after being given the heave by the parent team and seemingly not having the confidence in the Toro Rosso.

I hope he manages to find another team; I do rate Kvyat, and whilst he's no world-beater he's 22 and has bags of potential.

That also seems to make Gasly's path easier, so he's picked the right time to start winning races.

Posted: **26 Jul 2016, 17:28**

Ataxia wrote:It appears that DK's not going to be retained by Red Bull next season. Must be absolutely galling for the guy, especially after being given the heave by the parent team and seemingly not having the confidence in the Toro Rosso.

I hope he manages to find another team; I do rate Kvyat, and whilst he's no world-beater he's 22 and has bags of potential.

That also seems to make Gasly's path easier, so he's picked the right time to start winning races.

Not surprising, but still a damn shame. My best bet/hope is that he ends up at Williams taking Massa's seat when he inevitably retires.

Leaving the career powderkeg that is Red Bull should hopefully get him back on his feet... as long as he doesn't end up leaving F1 altogether to do something like DTM, which would sting even more and effectively destroy his single seater career.

Posted: **26 Jul 2016, 18:02**

So Red Bull has a million junior drivers that they promote then spit out after a period of stagnation on the basis that they're not 'world championship material' despite never giving them the opportunity in (at least in earlier years) backmarker-to-midfield level cars. Too many drivers and they use hardly any of them.

Ferrari has a junior academy thing but only actually hires drivers with 'experience' who have been in the sport at least 8 years, and so don't promote Perez or Bianchi.

McLaren has a style akin to Red Bull, but with less drivers and even less patience, firing them after one season on occasion.

Surely there's an optimum way of running a junior program, and surely none of these is that?

Posted: **26 Jul 2016, 22:40**

Rob Dylan wrote:So Red Bull has a million junior drivers that they promote then spit out after a period of stagnation on the basis that they're not 'world championship material' despite never giving them the opportunity in (at least in earlier years) backmarker-to-midfield level cars. Too many drivers and they use hardly any of them.

Ferrari has a junior academy thing but only actually hires drivers with 'experience' who have been in the sport at least 8 years, and so don't promote Perez or Bianchi.

McLaren has a style akin to Red Bull, but with less drivers and even less patience, firing them after one season on occasion.

Surely there's an optimum way of running a junior program, and surely none of these is that?

From the senior team's perspective, I think Red Bull's program is quite effective. The last time they had to hire a new driver that wasn't from their junior academy, was with Mark Webber, back in 2007. Also, with this policy they are currently having the two youngest drivers to have won a race, in their senior team. From a driver's perspective, I do agree with you. However, given the budget from Red Bull, I don't think they would care too much about the misses. That's just a shame for them and for us as fans, too. I would have liked to see how Buemi, Alguersuari or Vergne would fare in a Force India, Williams or, a couple of years ago, a Sauber.

Ferrari somehow never seem to have the real 'hits' in their young driver programme. Perez's switch to McLaren may have been too early, so there is a reason why Ferrari didn't promote him yet at that point. But other drivers from their programme like Marciello never got ready for F1 in general.

McLaren (or McLaren-Mercedes in the past) did have some F1-worthy drivers in their development programme. The thing that bothers me most with their programme is that they get the drivers ready and then they leave them waiting. Nick Heidfeld never got his chance at McLaren and Kevin Magnussen was denied a second season after a somewhat promising first season. Gary Paffett was test driver until he was too old to attract interest from other teams and I'm a bit afraid that the same will happen to Stoffel Vandoorne. Of course, they did take the gamble with Hamilton and it paid off.

So, in general, the optimum way is definitely not found by Ferrari and McLaren. However, Red Bull's method may be quite close to optimum, as long as money is not an issue.

Posted: **29 Jul 2016, 16:22**

Pérez joins the long list of potential candidates for next year's Renault.

This coming in spite of the piece of paper he signed saying he's going to stay put at Force India.

Posted: **29 Jul 2016, 17:33**

tBone wrote:So, in general, the optimum way is definitely not found by Ferrari and McLaren. However, Red Bull's method may be quite close to optimum, as long as money is not an issue.

It has to be said that the idea of running a young driver programme is pretty recent for Ferrari, as they've normally placed the highest premium on prior experience when choosing a driver - the last time they hired a relatively inexperienced driver was Massa, and even then that was only after a year as their test driver and three at Sauber.

When compared to Ferrari, Red Bull have a significant advantage given that they've been working in that field for a lot longer than Ferrari has - although they initially entered just as a sponsor in 1995, by the end of the 1990's they were moving into the driver recruitment field as well (Vettel was signed to their driver programme in 1998).

Ferrari, by contrast, started at the end of 2009 - so although Ferrari is having a harder time of it, we're comparing the records from a team that started about six and a bit years ago against a team that has had more than 20 years to polish their programme. In some ways, Ferrari is at a similar level of experience right now as Red Bull's junior driver programme was at in around 2006-2007, which was when they had figures like Edoardo Piscopo and Niall Quinn on their books.

To a certain extent, Ferrari are probably in some disarray as well given that they'd been working to the assumption that Bianchi would be at Sauber by now, the benefits of which would then be trickling back down the chain to their other junior drivers. Sadly, that situation has never come to pass and Ferrari's long term plans have had to be completely changed, which seems to have had a fairly negative knock on effect on them.

In the case of McLaren, in their case it is a bit more complex given that they were working in partnership with Mercedes, which sometimes lead to friction (to some extent, Ron Dennis did resent the idea of Mercedes interfering with the team when it came to choosing drivers).
Heidfeld was, if I recall well, technically employed by Mercedes rather than by McLaren, and I believe that was also the case for Paffett (or at least that was the case at the beginning of his career). I might be mistaken, but I think that Hamilton was a little unusual at the time as he was one of the first to be employed directly by McLaren rather than being hired through Mercedes.

Furthermore, in the case of Paffett, McLaren did try to help him out with his career in other ways - they let him try for a seat at Honda (the test position which Klien eventually won instead), whilst in 2008 they were working on getting him a seat at Prodrive's planned team before Prodrive's bid was blocked by Williams's threat of legal action against them.

True, McLaren's record on driver development is also a bit patchy, but equally McLaren's pool of junior drivers is also much smaller than that of Red Bull and has not been running for as long either.

That is by no means to dismiss Red Bull's programme either - it's just that, when you compare them to their rivals, it is worth remembering that Red Bull have had a lot longer and a much larger pool of candidates to work with to refine their programme to their current system.

Posted: **29 Jul 2016, 18:52**

According with a Danish news paper, Renault won't renew Palmer and Magnussen contracts.

Posted: **29 Jul 2016, 19:33**

Dj_bereta wrote:According with a Danish news paper, Renault won't renew Palmer and Magnussen contracts.

That's...very strange indeed. I can only guess that Renault are trying to line up a big name for their 2017 line-up, but even then the only one not locked down for 2017 is Button, and I highly doubt he'd go to Enstone. In any case, I had thought Renault would be wanting to build around K-Mags for the future, as he's only 23, unless they want to build around one of their own stable of drivers (Rowland/Ocon/Sirotkin/Vaxiviere)

Palmer being cut loose really isn't a surprise, he was only ever there as part of the Lotus legacy, and on performance alone this season he clearly isn't F1 material. Renault don't need the money he brings either.

Posted: **29 Jul 2016, 22:03**

East Londoner wrote:
Dj_bereta wrote:According with a Danish news paper, Renault won't renew Palmer and Magnussen contracts.

That's...very strange indeed. I can only guess that Renault are trying to line up a big name for their 2017 line-up, but even then the only one not locked down for 2017 is Button, and I highly doubt he'd go to Enstone. In any case, I had thought Renault would be wanting to build around K-Mags for the future, as he's only 23, unless they want to build around one of their own stable of drivers (Rowland/Ocon/Sirotkin/Vaxiviere)

Palmer being cut loose really isn't a surprise, he was only ever there as part of the Lotus legacy, and on performance alone this season he clearly isn't F1 material. Renault don't need the money he brings either.

And now, Autosport says Renault wants Perez for the next year, alongside with Ocon. Plus, Perez sponsors are talking with Williams too.

The silly season in the middlefield just started.

Renault
Perez/Button/Massa/Magnussen/Grosjean(?)
Ocon/Magnussen/Vandoorne(?)

Williams
Bottas
Massa/Button/Perez/Magnussen(?)/Kvyat(?)/Nasr(?)/Lynn(?)

Force India
Hulk
Perez/Magnussen(?)/Button(?)/Wehrlein(?)

Another interesting scenario is If Wehrlein replaces Perez in Force India, Ocon gets promoted in Renault and Haryanto fails to keep his seat. Two vacant seats in Manor for 2017.

Posted: **29 Jul 2016, 23:02**

Because I love a good list

Force India
Nico Hulkenberg
Pascal Wehrlein

Williams
Sergio Perez
Daniil Kvyat

McLaren
Fernando Alonso
Stoffel Vandoorne

Renault
Valtteri Bottas
Esteban Gutierrez

Sauber
Some serious pay drivers

Haas
Romain Grosjean
Charles Leclerc

Manor
Esteban Ocon
Literally no idea

Posted: **30 Jul 2016, 07:57**

East Londoner wrote:
Dj_bereta wrote:According with a Danish news paper, Renault won't renew Palmer and Magnussen contracts.

That's...very strange indeed. I can only guess that Renault are trying to line up a big name for their 2017 line-up, but even then the only one not locked down for 2017 is Button, and I highly doubt he'd go to Enstone. In any case, I had thought Renault would be wanting to build around K-Mags for the future, as he's only 23, unless they want to build around one of their own stable of drivers (Rowland/Ocon/Sirotkin/Vaxiviere)

Palmer being cut loose really isn't a surprise, he was only ever there as part of the Lotus legacy, and on performance alone this season he clearly isn't F1 material. Renault don't need the money he brings either.

As you say, Palmer's demise is hardly unexpected - as you say, Renault probably would be quite relieved to get rid of him given that he wasn't really their choice of driver. There seem to be few upsides to keeping him on, but quite a few upsides to ditching him given his relatively unimpressive performances.

In the article that Dj_bereta has linked to, it is being suggested (albeit with a very rough and ready pass through Google's translation programme) that there are a couple of reasons for Renault wanting to get rid of Magnussen.

The first is the fact that he has been involved in more accidents on track than the team would like - it's a complaint which has come up before in his career, as it was one of the criticisms he faced when he was at McLaren. The second seems to be a relatively disappointing performance during debriefing sessions and team meetings, where he seems to be rather passive and even a bit lazy (i.e. that he's perhaps a bit too laid back and not providing enough technical feedback on the car).

In that situation, I can see why Renault might be interested in changing their entire line up - a Perez-Ocon line up might be fairly attractive, since Perez is a reasonably experienced driver by now (he's into his 6th season in the sport) and Ocon has shown a fair amount of promise in his junior career and in the practise sessions he has taken part in (for example, he virtually matched Magnussen this weekend during the first practise session). The only issue with that might be whether Mercedes objects to Renault signing Ocon - Ocon is officially part of Mercedes's junior driver team and is only on loan to Renault.

Posted: **30 Jul 2016, 15:25**

mario wrote:As you say, Palmer's demise is hardly unexpected - as you say, Renault probably would be quite relieved to get rid of him given that he wasn't really their choice of driver. There seem to be few upsides to keeping him on, but quite a few upsides to ditching him given his relatively unimpressive performances.

In the article that Dj_bereta has linked to, it is being suggested (albeit with a very rough and ready pass through Google's translation programme) that there are a couple of reasons for Renault wanting to get rid of Magnussen.

The first is the fact that he has been involved in more accidents on track than the team would like - it's a complaint which has come up before in his career, as it was one of the criticisms he faced when he was at McLaren. The second seems to be a relatively disappointing performance during debriefing sessions and team meetings, where he seems to be rather passive and even a bit lazy (i.e. that he's perhaps a bit too laid back and not providing enough technical feedback on the car).

In that situation, I can see why Renault might be interested in changing their entire line up - a Perez-Ocon line up might be fairly attractive, since Perez is a reasonably experienced driver by now (he's into his 6th season in the sport) and Ocon has shown a fair amount of promise in his junior career and in the practise sessions he has taken part in (for example, he virtually matched Magnussen this weekend during the first practise session). The only issue with that might be whether Mercedes objects to Renault signing Ocon - Ocon is officially part of Mercedes's junior driver team and is only on loan to Renault.

If that's the case then wouldn't Sirotkin be a less controversial option? He too proved in GP2 and FP1 sessions this year that he can be faster than Palmer consistently.

Posted: **01 Aug 2016, 11:01**

Bring back Maldonado. Actually put Maldonado in Force India. He's a lot quicker than Palmer and K-Mag. I think he's better at giving feedback. Not on Grosjean level.

https://twitter.com/miezicat1/status/759698057005006848

But Ocen is highly touted.

Posted: **01 Aug 2016, 20:07**

mario wrote:
East Londoner wrote:
Dj_bereta wrote:According with a Danish news paper, Renault won't renew Palmer and Magnussen contracts.

That's...very strange indeed. I can only guess that Renault are trying to line up a big name for their 2017 line-up, but even then the only one not locked down for 2017 is Button, and I highly doubt he'd go to Enstone. In any case, I had thought Renault would be wanting to build around K-Mags for the future, as he's only 23, unless they want to build around one of their own stable of drivers (Rowland/Ocon/Sirotkin/Vaxiviere)

Palmer being cut loose really isn't a surprise, he was only ever there as part of the Lotus legacy, and on performance alone this season he clearly isn't F1 material. Renault don't need the money he brings either.

As you say, Palmer's demise is hardly unexpected - as you say, Renault probably would be quite relieved to get rid of him given that he wasn't really their choice of driver. There seem to be few upsides to keeping him on, but quite a few upsides to ditching him given his relatively unimpressive performances.

In the article that Dj_bereta has linked to, it is being suggested (albeit with a very rough and ready pass through Google's translation programme) that there are a couple of reasons for Renault wanting to get rid of Magnussen.

The first is the fact that he has been involved in more accidents on track than the team would like - it's a complaint which has come up before in his career, as it was one of the criticisms he faced when he was at McLaren. The second seems to be a relatively disappointing performance during debriefing sessions and team meetings, where he seems to be rather passive and even a bit lazy (i.e. that he's perhaps a bit too laid back and not providing enough technical feedback on the car).

In that situation, I can see why Renault might be interested in changing their entire line up - a Perez-Ocon line up might be fairly attractive, since Perez is a reasonably experienced driver by now (he's into his 6th season in the sport) and Ocon has shown a fair amount of promise in his junior career and in the practise sessions he has taken part in (for example, he virtually matched Magnussen this weekend during the first practise session). The only issue with that might be whether Mercedes objects to Renault signing Ocon - Ocon is officially part of Mercedes's junior driver team and is only on loan to Renault.

Agree on Palmer, although he have made some improvements in Hungary. Having driven for McLaren Magnussen should have instead given a good feedback on how the car needs to be better, but if it's true he has not done so than he has few chances to stay there.
Main problem is that there are no serious alternatives, only Perez or Hulkenberg have the experience and the speed to bring Renault a good feedback.

Posted: **01 Aug 2016, 20:15**

This is how I see it:

Force India
Vitaly Petrov
Nico Hulkenberg

Williams
Narain Karthikeyan
Stoffel Vandoorne

Toro Rosso
Carlos Sainz, Jr.
Pierre Gasly

McLaren
Fernando Alonso
Nico Rosberg

Renault
Valtteri Bottas
Kevin Magnussen

Sauber
Ralf Aron
Pastor Maldonado

Haas
Romain Grosjean
Pascal Wehrlein

Manor
Carmen Jorda
Narain Karthikeyan

Stefan GP
Jos Verstappen
Me

Posted: **01 Aug 2016, 20:53**

Narain Karthikeyan at both Williams AND Manor? Wow!

Posted: **01 Aug 2016, 20:57**

dr-baker wrote:Narain Karthikeyan at both Williams AND Manor? Wow!

I'm surprised you noticed that before either the complete disappearance of Mercedes or the presence of Carmen Jordá

Posted: **01 Aug 2016, 21:24**

tommykl wrote:
dr-baker wrote:Narain Karthikeyan at both Williams AND Manor? Wow!

I'm surprised you noticed that before either the complete disappearance of Mercedes or the presence of Carmen Jordá

However much I am a fan of female race drivers, even I acknowledge that Carmen Jorda is as deserving of the drive as Milka Duno (i.e. she isn't). Not a lot else to add there. And of the current teams, Williams and Manor are my two favourites...

Posted: **02 Aug 2016, 17:10**

The silly season in the middlefield is getting silly day by day. Now a Finish website claims Bottas has two options: renew with Williams or go to Renault. A Swedish one says Ericsson could leave Sauber and there are three options for him.

Posted: **02 Aug 2016, 20:06**

Dj_bereta wrote:The silly season in the middlefield is getting silly day by day. Now a Finish website claims Bottas has two options: renew with Williams or go to Renault. A Swedish one says Ericsson could leave Sauber and there are three options for him.

Gosh, never thought I'd see a day where multiple teams are scrapping over Ericsson's signature.

Posted: **02 Aug 2016, 21:51**

watka wrote:
Dj_bereta wrote:The silly season in the middlefield is getting silly day by day. Now a Finish website claims Bottas has two options: renew with Williams or go to Renault. A Swedish one says Ericsson could leave Sauber and there are three options for him.

Gosh, never thought I'd see a day where multiple teams are scrapping over Ericsson's signature.[/quote

Money talks.

Posted: **03 Aug 2016, 11:09**

watka wrote:
Dj_bereta wrote:The silly season in the middlefield is getting silly day by day. Now a Finish website claims Bottas has two options: renew with Williams or go to Renault. A Swedish one says Ericsson could leave Sauber and there are three options for him.

Gosh, never thought I'd see a day where multiple teams are scrapping over Ericsson's signature.

No, that's not necessarily true. It only says that Ericcson has three options. Those three options, for all we know, could be retirement, sabbatical, university...

Posted: **03 Aug 2016, 11:24**

dr-baker wrote:
watka wrote:
Dj_bereta wrote:The silly season in the middlefield is getting silly day by day. Now a Finish website claims Bottas has two options: renew with Williams or go to Renault. A Swedish one says Ericsson could leave Sauber and there are three options for him.

Gosh, never thought I'd see a day where multiple teams are scrapping over Ericsson's signature.

No, that's not necessarily true. It only says that Ericcson has three options. Those three options, for all we know, could be retirement, sabbatical, university...

I'm not a hater of Ericsson, he's a decent driver. But makes me sad thinking of many good driver who have never got a chanche to drive in F1 and he is up for a fourth one...

Posted: **03 Aug 2016, 11:32**

EuroBrun wrote:
dr-baker wrote:
watka wrote:
Gosh, never thought I'd see a day where multiple teams are scrapping over Ericsson's signature.

No, that's not necessarily true. It only says that Ericcson has three options. Those three options, for all we know, could be retirement, sabbatical, university...

I'm not a hater of Ericsson, he's a decent driver. But makes me sad thinking of many good driver who have never got a chanche to drive in F1 and he is up for a fourth one...

I agree. He's certainly much more worthy of a drive than Yuji Ide, for example.

Posted: **03 Aug 2016, 14:03**

EuroBrun wrote:I'm not a hater of Ericsson, he's a decent driver. But makes me sad thinking of many good driver who have never got a chanche to drive in F1 and he is up for a fourth one...

I genuinely forgot about Ericsson's Caterham stint in 2014, it's so anonymous that it's a blur! I'm barely aware he's there half the time, who keeps hiring him?!

Posted: **04 Aug 2016, 10:55**

dr-baker wrote:
watka wrote:
Dj_bereta wrote:The silly season in the middlefield is getting silly day by day. Now a Finish website claims Bottas has two options: renew with Williams or go to Renault. A Swedish one says Ericsson could leave Sauber and there are three options for him.

Gosh, never thought I'd see a day where multiple teams are scrapping over Ericsson's signature.

No, that's not necessarily true. It only says that Ericcson has three options. Those three options, for all we know, could be retirement, sabbatical, university...

Nah, he's got that lifetime Sauber contract now

Posted: **04 Aug 2016, 18:46**

andrew wrote:
watka wrote:
Dj_bereta wrote:The silly season in the middlefield is getting silly day by day. Now a Finish website claims Bottas has two options: renew with Williams or go to Renault. A Swedish one says Ericsson could leave Sauber and there are three options for him.

Gosh, never thought I'd see a day where multiple teams are scrapping over Ericsson's signature.[/quote

Money talks.

3 options: very simple. 1) Marcus Ericsson 2) Jimmy Erikson 3) Joel Eriksson

To be fair to Marcus, both of them are spelled differently. But that's only to hide that they're one and the same person.

Posted: **05 Aug 2016, 08:09**

If I'd be in Bottas position I would move to Renault. Don't really understand why Renault would be interested in him.

Posted: **06 Aug 2016, 03:58**

There will always be room for Ericsson and those of his like in F1, usually at least half the teams are in some sort of financial crisis at any point in time

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