Grand Prix Rejects

From how it looks, Kubica did the testing with Williams as something of a formality - he'd put the miles in on the simulator and the 2014 car (where, to some degree at least, they could compare him to Stroll) and Williams was ready to pick up from where Renault left off to help Kubica stage a miraculous comeback. With his experience, Kubica presented an option from whom Stroll could learn from. Needing a reserve who could contribute more to the coffers than di Resta could, Williams also handed a run to Sirotkin to see how he'd fare.

Then Sirotkin was quicker.

Kubica's fastest lap was half-a-second over Sirotkin, granted, but was on a set of tyres three steps softer. Sirotkin's long-run pace was marginally stronger, and his one-lap pace was much better than Kubica's. Sure, the money helps a lot, but I believe Williams would have turned down the extra $7m if Kubica had proven to be capable of a full-strength comeback.

He wasn't. Not yet.

Sirotkin's a real gamble, in performance terms at least. He'd shown great pace in GP2, albeit prone to the odd mistake, but was a real revelation at the hot-and-cold Rapax team in 2015. Sure, perhaps working with ART should have yielded better results given the team's past successes, but let's not forget PREMA's dominance across the board in 2016. Gasly and Giovinazzi were the only two horses in the race that year, while everyone else resembled limping centaurs failing to keep pace, hamstrung by PREMA's systematic headhunting of GP2's best engineers.

Is, all things considered, Sergey Sirotkin a world-beater? Does he have the junior career of a Leclerc, an Ocon or a Hamilton? No. Is he a technically-astute grafter capable of sticking it to the likes of Vandoorne, Gasly et al on a regular basis? Sir-tainly.

I personally rate Sirotkin very highly and I actually expect himn to beat Stroll in WDC this season. I actually believe Sirotkin will unrejectify himself this season too, avatar bet anyone?

I too think Sirotkin will do a more than reasonable job. Yes he does have money, but he also has two GP2 third place seasons and a fair bit of FP1 experience. There is certainly plenty of ability there.

With a rookie championship podium in GP2, then another one to show he wasn't just good for a season like so many before him, Sirotkin clearly deserves a chance at F1. The problem is that there are twenty cars. There are so many drivers who deserve a chance they're not getting. Does he deserve a seat more than Buemi? Rossi? Giovinazzi? di Resta? The latest champion(s) of your favourite second-tier series? I'm not saying yes or no to any of those, I'm just saying that the problem is ultimately F1's financial structure only letting ten teams exist. It would certainly be an injustice if Sirotkin never got his chance, but that applies to so many other people, and he isn't anyone's favourite neglected talent, so combined with the money giving him a pay-driver appearance—emphasis on appearance—it makes people angry.

I hope it goes well for Sirotkin.

Looks like Force India will be changing names

https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/955755060608323585

and some digging by reddit it looks like they might be renamed FORCE Formula 1 Team

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/11065542

Just so we are in the clear, if that name change occurs, this gif demonstrates what I will do to the first user making a Star Wars reference.

Now I really want to see Lando Norris drive for them - I always felt we could benefit from a Force-using Lando.

Klon wrote:Just so we are in the clear, if that name change occurs, this gif demonstrates what I will do to the first user making a Star Wars reference.

Bite me.

Salamander wrote:Now I really want to see Lando Norris drive for them - I always felt we could benefit from a Force-using Lando.

Klon wrote:Just so we are in the clear, if that name change occurs, this gif demonstrates what I will do to the first user making a Star Wars reference.

Bite me.

Well, may the force be with you, should that ever happen.

I think it would be a very productive to create a Force Team Pun Thread if this is indeed what is happening to the team name.

Rob Dylan wrote:I think it would be a very productive to create a Force Team Pun Thread if this is indeed what is happening to the team name.

No one's going to Force you to do it, Rob, but if you must...

Rob Dylan wrote:I think it would be a very productive to create a Force Team Pun Thread if this is indeed what is happening to the team name.

I think if we encouraged it that much, most of the puns would be a bit forced....

So we are going to have a FORCE team and a Haas team again? No Lola or Ford....yet....


In other silly season news Cosworth had a post on there Facebook page that was basically a love letter to Aston-Martin.....

#Cos-MartinF1Confirmed?

https://twitter.com/andrewbensonf1/status/1004326552417562625 Courtesy of Miguel98 linking this one, but holy moly.

So the rumours of Brendon Hartley getting the sack very soon are apparently entirely accurate. Apparently the Red Bull company went to McLaren to snatch Lando Norris off of them for the remainder of the season, and were rejected.

However, this looks very much like Hartley won't be in the car for too much longer. Any thoughts on the replacement? Could this be the opportunity for a certain Pole?

Rob Dylan wrote:https://twitter.com/andrewbensonf1/status/1004326552417562625 Courtesy of Miguel98 linking this one, but holy moly.

So the rumours of Brendon Hartley getting the sack very soon are apparently entirely accurate. Apparently the Red Bull company went to McLaren to snatch Lando Norris off of them for the remainder of the season, and were rejected.

However, this looks very much like Hartley won't be in the car for too much longer. Any thoughts on the replacement? Could this be the opportunity for a certain Pole?

Apparently, some Spanish bloke tested for them at the Red Bull Ring yesterday...

I have literally no idea who you're referring to

Rob Dylan wrote:I have literally no idea who you're referring to

I can tell you who he's referring to.

...it was actually two Spanish blokes.

I've been expecting this for a while. Everyone's favourite Obergruppenfuhrer Marko was never going to stick with Hartley even though - like Kvyat last year - bad luck has played a part. Why don't they just give people a proper chance though? Everyone raving about Gasly doesn't help. He's good, but I really don't think he's THAT good.

Oh well, once Brendon's gone I can resume my hatred of Toro Rosso to go along with my everlasting hatred for Red Bull....

Rob Dylan wrote:https://twitter.com/andrewbensonf1/status/1004326552417562625 Courtesy of Miguel98 linking this one, but holy moly.

So the rumours of Brendon Hartley getting the sack very soon are apparently entirely accurate. Apparently the Red Bull company went to McLaren to snatch Lando Norris off of them for the remainder of the season, and were rejected.

However, this looks very much like Hartley won't be in the car for too much longer. Any thoughts on the replacement? Could this be the opportunity for a certain Pole?

McLaren have also now formally confirmed that Toro Rosso tried to secure Norris - it also appears that Red Bull were asking to have Norris for 2018 and 2019, perhaps because of the lack of alternatives that they have right now.

The last thing that Hartley needs right now is Red Bull openly hawking his seat to available drivers in such a brazen way - maybe if they put the same amount of effort into helping Hartley, they might have helped him overcome the difficulties he's been having rather than exacerbating them?

mario wrote:

Rob Dylan wrote:https://twitter.com/andrewbensonf1/status/1004326552417562625 Courtesy of Miguel98 linking this one, but holy moly.

So the rumours of Brendon Hartley getting the sack very soon are apparently entirely accurate. Apparently the Red Bull company went to McLaren to snatch Lando Norris off of them for the remainder of the season, and were rejected.

However, this looks very much like Hartley won't be in the car for too much longer. Any thoughts on the replacement? Could this be the opportunity for a certain Pole?

McLaren have also now formally confirmed that Toro Rosso tried to secure Norris - it also appears that Red Bull were asking to have Norris for 2018 and 2019, perhaps because of the lack of alternatives that they have right now.

The last thing that Hartley needs right now is Red Bull openly hawking his seat to available drivers in such a brazen way - maybe if they put the same amount of effort into helping Hartley, they might have helped him overcome the difficulties he's been having rather than exacerbating them?

That's Red Bull's way, isn't it? Allegedly (taking a Hislopian attitude to covering my cute little butt) they don't care about actively helping their drivers at all, the ethos of the junior team seems to be throw them in the deep end, see if they float, and leave the ones who don't for the rest to pick out of the pool.

It never used to be so bad before, and you had legitimate deadweights being given more than their fair share of opportunities. But the success of Vettel changed things and instead, the onus is on delivering results immediately. Perhaps Alguersuari and Buemi had their chances, but the former was told he'd be remaining with Toro Rosso before being provided with his marching orders at the 11th hour after the rest of the field was sewn up for 2012. Kvyat wasn't given a chance to turn around his 2016, and was kicked to the curb after a single bad race, his confidence subsequently disappearing like Houdini from a locked chest.

We're now in the situation where Hartley (after just 10 races) is having his seat offered around as if it's the last melon on the marketstall. I'm led to believe it was offered to Markelov, who told Marko to look elsewhere. Now, Norris is next up, but McLaren have wisely said no. Kubica's apparently been looked at, and it's absolutely bewildering that we're in this situation. Hartley had a contract with Chip Ganassi for this year's IndyCar and Red Bull bought him out of that. Now, he's one wrong move way from a P45, even though Toro Rosso have no viable replacements.

This is a ludicrous situation. Red Bull are struggling to manage Verstappen's loss of form, and can't help Hartley out of his current predicament. They couldn't keep Kvyat from reaching the void, they couldn't keep Vettel at all, and couldn't help Webber from being permanently dissatisfied with his lot.

And they've nobody else. Dan Ticktum's the next one, and I wouldn't actually be surprised if Marko just chucked him in the Toro Rosso halfway through the year. Sure, he's very talented, but he's another driver who Red Bull would risk mismanaging. That's it.

Then you've got guys who were cut loose in the past, like Albon and Sette Camara, who are flourishing without them. What does that say?

mario wrote:The last thing that Hartley needs right now is Red Bull openly hawking his seat to available drivers in such a brazen way - maybe if they put the same amount of effort into helping Hartley, they might have helped him overcome the difficulties he's been having rather than exacerbating them?

They have no interest in genuine driver development whatsoever. None. Their sole reason for existence is to hope that occasionally they pick someone good who might end up in a Red Bull. I genuinely don't get why they're in F1 as to me it's like kicking - say - Watford out of the Premier League and giving their place to Manchester United Reserves.

As Ataxia brought up, it seems to be the Vettel that changed the modus operandi of how Red Bull managed their drivers - until then there were some people who were outstaying their welcome. It seems new drivers are judged as "Are you doing better than Vettel was?" and if not, your already marked for the exit, not worth investing in.

Not helped that RB play favourites with their drivers (Remember Sainz very nearly dint get his F1 seat despite proving himself junior background thanks to Max, it was only Vettel leaving that opened up a second Toro Rosso seat) and one also gets the general feeling that Danny is frustrating the RB higher ups with his success as he wasnt who they threw their full lot with. However the driver conveyor belt has stopped and I cant help but wonder if Red Bulls treatment of drivers they dont see as favourite has had a bearing on this...

I feel like Red Bull have been creeping into this position, and come across as apparently unaware of that fact. I remember watching the F2 last year, where Nico Kari was one of the hyped-up juniors who simply didn't deliver. The commentators even back then (exactly a year ago) were saying that the Red Bull talent pool is simply drying up and they have no reserves.

This is also a logical continuation of a discussion last year, where we said that many of the young drivers are taking alternatives to the Red Bull programme, as they've seen how they treat Kvyat / Alguersuari, and everybody else who's been ruined by the same machine. The chickens appear to be coming home to roost---or in Red Bull's case, aren't

It's a pretty stark contrast to 4 or 5 years ago, when they appeared to have oodles of talent like Ricciardo, Vergne, Felix da Costa, Kvyat, Verstappen, Sainz and a few others that all appeared to have the talent to make it in F1. Almost as if they realised they had all this talent and only two seats in the junior team, so presumably they just cut back on the majority of their young drivers, figuring they had enough in reserve to always have the two seats filled, only for it to now come around and bite them in the arse a little bit.

And a point I was going to add was that, if it is true that both Markelov and Norris / McLaren have turned them down, behind the scenes Red Bull's reputation for young drivers might be even worse than we know. I mean, how many people would jump at the opportunity to have a drive in F1? Markelov certainly would!

I just wonder if Red Bull will gamble with one of their young drivers who are available anyway, just to get an alternative to Hartley, who in my opinion doesn't even seem to be that bad. Just average and without enough time to really prove himself.

Markelov has previously said that he would never drive for Toro Rosso "knowing how Dr. Marko ruins the careers of young drivers", whereas I've read that Red Bull actually wanted Norris to drive for them next season on top of the remainder of this season, which McLaren obviously wouldn't want.

As for Red Bull's other juniors, none of them are anywhere near having the required super licence points. Ticktum's only now doing his first full season of F3, and Verhagen's in his second season of FR2.0 with no real standout results so far. Everyone else is either in F4 or karting. Honda's preferred drivers are a similar story to Ticktum and Verhagen.

Then we have former Red Bull dropouts Vergne and Buemi who are both happy where they are at the moment, and have made comments to the effect that they would only return to F1 if they were provided a winning car.

What this means, ultimately, is that Toro Rosso have little choice but to sign Pedro de la Rosa to replace Hartley.

Simtek wrote:Markelov has previously said that he would never drive for Toro Rosso "knowing how Dr. Marko ruins the careers of young drivers", whereas I've read that Red Bull actually wanted Norris to drive for them next season on top of the remainder of this season, which McLaren obviously wouldn't want.

As for Red Bull's other juniors, none of them are anywhere near having the required super licence points. Ticktum's only now doing his first full season of F3, and Verhagen's in his second season of FR2.0 with no real standout results so far. Everyone else is either in F4 or karting. Honda's preferred drivers are a similar story to Ticktum and Verhagen.

Then we have former Red Bull dropouts Vergne and Buemi who are both happy where they are at the moment, and have made comments to the effect that they would only return to F1 if they were provided a winning car.

What this means, ultimately, is that Toro Rosso have little choice but to sign Pedro de la Rosa to replace Hartley.

De La Rosa is worth more. Maybe a chance for Sakon Yamamoto.

This wrote:

Simtek wrote:Markelov has previously said that he would never drive for Toro Rosso "knowing how Dr. Marko ruins the careers of young drivers", whereas I've read that Red Bull actually wanted Norris to drive for them next season on top of the remainder of this season, which McLaren obviously wouldn't want.

As for Red Bull's other juniors, none of them are anywhere near having the required super licence points. Ticktum's only now doing his first full season of F3, and Verhagen's in his second season of FR2.0 with no real standout results so far. Everyone else is either in F4 or karting. Honda's preferred drivers are a similar story to Ticktum and Verhagen.

Then we have former Red Bull dropouts Vergne and Buemi who are both happy where they are at the moment, and have made comments to the effect that they would only return to F1 if they were provided a winning car.

What this means, ultimately, is that Toro Rosso have little choice but to sign Pedro de la Rosa to replace Hartley.

De La Rosa is worth more. Maybe a chance for Sakon Yamamoto.

Nah, for the ultimate mid-season replacement, it has to be Jacques Villeneuve. And what better place to make his F1 return (again) than Canada?

Ultimate would be HWNSNBM. Just by competing, he would a record for longest time between race starts. And he has experience of F1. The two-seater, mind you...

dr-baker wrote:Ultimate would be HWNSNBM. Just by competing, he would a record for longest time between race starts. And he has experience of F1. The two-seater, mind you...

He's younger than Kimi Räikkönen, so you can't claim he's too old either.

Is Vitantonio Liuzzi still alive? Surely he's got the experience of driving with Toro Rosso, and his qualifications such as Reject of the Year 2010 would put him in great stead?

How would GODlael's situation be in terms of Super License points?

Honestly, all of these drivers deserve a go. Toro Rosso should do what the Red Bull team used to do, and just have rolling leases for the drivers race-in race-out. Every second race or so swap Hartley's replacement for another replacement.

To please Honda why not bring back Takuma Sato for some Banzai!!!

sswishbone wrote:To please Honda why not bring back Takuma Sato for some Banzai!!!

Too busy running decently in IndyCar.

Salamander wrote:

sswishbone wrote:To please Honda why not bring back Takuma Sato for some Banzai!!!

Too busy running decently in IndyCar.

What about Kamui Kobayashi then?

Collieafc wrote:

Salamander wrote:

sswishbone wrote:To please Honda why not bring back Takuma Sato for some Banzai!!!

Too busy running decently in IndyCar.

What about Kamui Kobayashi then?

Too busy running decently in WEC (also he's a Toyota driver).

Salamander wrote:

sswishbone wrote:To please Honda why not bring back Takuma Sato for some Banzai!!!

Too busy running decently in IndyCar.

Simtek wrote:

Collieafc wrote:What about Kamui Kobayashi then?

Too busy running decently in WEC (also he's a Toyota driver).

What about Toranosuke Takagi then?

takagi_for_the_win wrote:What about Toranosuke Takagi then?

Retired from racing.

I guess Luca Badoer is available