Grand Prix Rejects

Aislabie wrote:9/ Toro Rosso (2.5/10)
They've finally changed the design of the STR livery and they've made it shite. All it needed was a new base colour, like the sugar free can. Let's hope this is a testing livery.

Ah, it's good to know I'm not the only one who doesn't like it.

I would have liked to have seen: this from Toro Rosso to make it stand out from Red Bull; this from Haas in order to wrap themselves in the American flag; this from McLaren in order to make an actual orange car; this from Renault in order to get away from the yellow & black disappointments that can never match Jordan, and finally this from Force India because why did they ever change it?

Ferrari, Mercedes, Red Bull, Sauber and Williams would of course be welcome to retain their liveries

DemocalypseNow wrote:Sauber
5.5
I don't understand the justification for the gold. I don't see what purpose it serves.

As far as I understand, it's part of the 25th anniversary commemoration.

Rob Dylan wrote:

Aislabie wrote:9/ Toro Rosso (2.5/10)
They've finally changed the design of the STR livery and they've made it shite. All it needed was a new base colour, like the sugar free can. Let's hope this is a testing livery.

Ah, it's good to know I'm not the only one who doesn't like it.

+1 here.

It looks to me that everyone either loves or hates it.

Waris wrote:

DemocalypseNow wrote:Sauber
5.5
I don't understand the justification for the gold. I don't see what purpose it serves.

As far as I understand, it's part of the 25th anniversary commemoration.

To qualify my statement a bit better - Silver is typically used to commemorate 25th anniversaries. Gold is for 50. What a colour connotes is important. If they picked gold just because they thought it would look nice, they picked an odd shade.

Rob Dylan wrote:Ah, it's good to know I'm not the only one who doesn't like it.

Count me as another. I was just keeping undercover when everyone on here was raving about it the other day!

DemocalypseNow wrote:Silver is typically used to commemorate 25th anniversaries. Gold is for 50. What a colour connotes is important. If they picked gold just because they thought it would look nice, they picked an odd shade.

You sound like a grumpy Grandparent. Stop it.

There's rumours Force India's gonna switch to.... PINK. In case they sign a contract with BWT.

solarcold wrote:There's rumours Force India's gonna switch to.... PINK. In case they sign a contract with BWT.

Fabulous.

McLaren-Honda are shaping up well for the 2017 ROTY.

Ferrim wrote:McLaren-Honda are shaping up well for the 2017 ROTY.

I groaned out loud when I read this as I hadn't seen the latest test news. It looks like Ferrim could well be right. Of course, there's always time to improve but we're looking at a series of statements promising new developments at Spain, then Silverstone and so on. I wonder at what point McLaren and Honda sit down and say "You know what, we'd save more face just by sitting this season out rather than turning up and being shocking at each race meeting"?

And I struggle to enjoy the Rejectful side of it too because there's plucky Rejects like Manor and then there's shambolic organisations with more money than sense like McHonda

CoopsII wrote:I groaned out loud when I read this as I hadn't seen the latest test news. It looks like Ferrim could well be right. Of course, there's always time to improve but we're looking at a series of statements promising new developments at Spain, then Silverstone and so on. I wonder at what point McLaren and Honda sit down and say "You know what, we'd save more face just by sitting this season out rather than turning up and being shocking at each race meeting"?

Remember how well that turned out for Brabham...

just as well engine penalties don't apply until the first race...

The problem at McLaren is clearly the engines, so at what point does McLaren run out of patience with Honda? I understand the need to buddy up with a manufacturer to essentially be a works team, but what benefit do McLaren get out of being Honda's team over being a customer Mercedes team right now? Any monetary benefit from Honda is being eroded by lost prize money and lost marketability. Heck, McLaren make their own engines for their supercars so why not have a go yourself guys?

watka wrote:The problem at McLaren is clearly the engines, so at what point does McLaren run out of patience with Honda? I understand the need to buddy up with a manufacturer to essentially be a works team, but what benefit do McLaren get out of being Honda's team over being a customer Mercedes team right now? Any monetary benefit from Honda is being eroded by lost prize money and lost marketability. Heck, McLaren make their own engines for their supercars so why not have a go yourself guys?

Whilst the engine is a major factor, it doesn't seem to be the only factor - de la Rosa did comment that, when he was watching Alonso test the car in the first test, it looks very unstable under braking and that it did not look like it was a match for the likes of Ferrari, Mercedes or Red Bull.

You also have to wonder what impact the recent upheaval in the management at the team must have had for them too - I would not be surprised if some technical staff chose to depart the team during that period, causing at least some disruption to the development of the car.

Nevertheless, it is true that Boullier has been making more public comments about the strain at the team, suggesting that they are becoming increasingly dissatisfied. It is plausible that they might consider reverting back to a Mercedes customer engine - I think that the current management would be more amenable to that than Ron ever would have been - but, at the moment, the financial incentives for sticking with Honda seem to be outweighing that.

I honestly don't know if McLaren will get past Monaco without an engine penalty. They've burned nearly an engine a day due to failures so far.

dinizintheoven wrote:Remember how well that turned out for Brabham...

And Tyrell and Lotus to name but two from recent memory. The point is even teams that have dominated can end up getting the axe, I guess?

CoopsII wrote:

dinizintheoven wrote:Remember how well that turned out for Brabham...

And Tyrell and Lotus to name but two from recent memory. The point is even teams that have dominated can end up getting the axe, I guess?

I was thinking more along the lines of how Brabham deliberately dropped out for a year and returned to anything but an upturn in fortunes.

dinizintheoven wrote:I was thinking more along the lines of how Brabham deliberately dropped out for a year and returned to anything but an upturn in fortunes.

I'd forgotten about that, was that for the 88 season after Bernie sold it?

I don't really expect McHonda to have a year off but this doesn't really do much to advertise their brands in a positive manner, does it? Extracting themselves from Honda would seem like a short-term solution but it couldn't be done quickly nor could another engine manufacturer simply bolt their product onto the car.

I can see us looking back at this incarnation of McLaren Honda as being the beginning of the end for the once great team. Which is ironic however way you look at it.

EDIT - I forgot this was the third year of this partnership, I thought it was the second.

CoopsII wrote:I don't really expect McHonda to have a year off but this doesn't really do much to advertise their brands in a positive manner, does it? Extracting themselves from Honda would seem like a short-term solution but it couldn't be done quickly nor could another engine manufacturer simply bolt their product onto the car.

I think it is really important that they show up, at least for the first few laps or whatever it is the amount of time their engine can run uninterruptedly before expiring, because otherwise Sauber might get lonely at the back and nobody wants that. A juicy backmarkers battle is what everyone here want to see and there are some promising signs coming out of testing.

dinizintheoven wrote:

CoopsII wrote:

dinizintheoven wrote:Remember how well that turned out for Brabham...

And Tyrell and Lotus to name but two from recent memory. The point is even teams that have dominated can end up getting the axe, I guess?

I was thinking more along the lines of how Brabham deliberately dropped out for a year and returned to anything but an upturn in fortunes.

IIRC, wasn't that because they couldn't find an engine supplier in time for 1988?

Fernando is not happy https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alon ... ty-880808/

Can he really spend another season sitting in a deckchair by the side of the track?

One wonders how much of this is kharma for crashgate and his rumoured involvement in the McLaren/Ferrari spying scandal.

CoopsII wrote:

dinizintheoven wrote:I was thinking more along the lines of how Brabham deliberately dropped out for a year and returned to anything but an upturn in fortunes.

I'd forgotten about that, was that for the 88 season after Bernie sold it?

I don't really expect McHonda to have a year off but this doesn't really do much to advertise their brands in a positive manner, does it? Extracting themselves from Honda would seem like a short-term solution but it couldn't be done quickly nor could another engine manufacturer simply bolt their product onto the car.

I can see us looking back at this incarnation of McLaren Honda as being the beginning of the end for the once great team. Which is ironic however way you look at it.

EDIT - I forgot this was the third year of this partnership, I thought it was the second.

I wouldn't necessarily agree that the rot set in then - their results began to decline in 2013, but it could be argued that the roots of their decline go back to 2009 and the decision by Mercedes to start divesting themselves from McLaren and to acquire their own team instead.

I suppose that the turning point would probably have been 2012 - that was the last year where Mercedes was providing them full works support (McLaren were downgraded to customer status after that), and it coincided with the loss of Hamilton and a sizeable chunk of their most senior technical directors to Mercedes.

They were already hurting financially in 2013 - they made a loss that year, IIRC, and they noted in their account that it was in part because Mercedes was no longer funding the team. That was then compounded by a relatively poor car - although not terrible, 5th place in the WCC in 2013 was one of their weakest performances in 30 years (it matched their lowest ranking in 2004 and in 1983). Similarly, even with the Mercedes engine in the back of the car, the team still couldn't better that performance in 2014 - it might admittedly have been because of a reduction in support from Mercedes because they were going to Honda, but even so you would have expected their superior resources to have told against the likes of Williams.

It was that loss of revenue and the reduction in technical support which drove the team to look towards Honda - they had a contract with Mercedes for 2015, but it was Ron who pushed for the team to switch to Honda prematurely, probably in part because the team was suffering financially and because he was already coming under pressure to start delivering on the promises he'd made when he pushed Whitmarsh out.

The deal with Honda has perhaps accelerated their decline, but I think that it is more of a symptom rather than a cause of their issues. It feels a bit like the gamble Brabham made with the BT55 - a team that saw that they were beginning to slide decided to go for a radical option that instead accelerated their fall from grace.

mario wrote:

CoopsII wrote:

dinizintheoven wrote:I was thinking more along the lines of how Brabham deliberately dropped out for a year and returned to anything but an upturn in fortunes.

I'd forgotten about that, was that for the 88 season after Bernie sold it?

I don't really expect McHonda to have a year off but this doesn't really do much to advertise their brands in a positive manner, does it? Extracting themselves from Honda would seem like a short-term solution but it couldn't be done quickly nor could another engine manufacturer simply bolt their product onto the car.

I can see us looking back at this incarnation of McLaren Honda as being the beginning of the end for the once great team. Which is ironic however way you look at it.

EDIT - I forgot this was the third year of this partnership, I thought it was the second.

I wouldn't necessarily agree that the rot set in then - their results began to decline in 2013, but it could be argued that the roots of their decline go back to 2009 and the decision by Mercedes to start divesting themselves from McLaren and to acquire their own team instead.

I suppose that the turning point would probably have been 2012 - that was the last year where Mercedes was providing them full works support (McLaren were downgraded to customer status after that), and it coincided with the loss of Hamilton and a sizeable chunk of their most senior technical directors to Mercedes.

They were already hurting financially in 2013 - they made a loss that year, IIRC, and they noted in their account that it was in part because Mercedes was no longer funding the team. That was then compounded by a relatively poor car - although not terrible, 5th place in the WCC in 2013 was one of their weakest performances in 30 years (it matched their lowest ranking in 2004 and in 1983). Similarly, even with the Mercedes engine in the back of the car, the team still couldn't better that performance in 2014 - it might admittedly have been because of a reduction in support from Mercedes because they were going to Honda, but even so you would have expected their superior resources to have told against the likes of Williams.

It was that loss of revenue and the reduction in technical support which drove the team to look towards Honda - they had a contract with Mercedes for 2015, but it was Ron who pushed for the team to switch to Honda prematurely, probably in part because the team was suffering financially and because he was already coming under pressure to start delivering on the promises he'd made when he pushed Whitmarsh out.

The deal with Honda has perhaps accelerated their decline, but I think that it is more of a symptom rather than a cause of their issues. It feels a bit like the gamble Brabham made with the BT55 - a team that saw that they were beginning to slide decided to go for a radical option that instead accelerated their fall from grace.

The question then is, where does the team go from here? How can they avoid the fate of Brabham? Try with another manufacturer? Go to Sports Cars instead?

CaptainGetz12 wrote:
The question then is, where does the team go from here? How can they avoid the fate of Brabham? Try with another manufacturer? Go to Sports Cars instead?

They go the Ferrari way. Sell cars to support competition (albeit they are a few years away from the ideal timing) and then start building their own engines. Williams weren't there back then and still aren't nowadays. But for McLaren it is possible. It will prevent them from going Brabham and Williams way.

Ferrari have Fiat to lean on. What would McLaren lean on?

Frentzen127 wrote:Ferrari have Fiat to lean on. What would McLaren lean on?

Maybe I am wrong, but I think Ferrari is, despite being owned by FIAT, a completely independent entity financially.

EDIT: Just checked the info and Ferrari has split from FIAT becoming a fully independent team early last year.

Frentzen127 wrote:What would McLaren lean on?

Based on current form, the tyre barrier

Aislabie wrote:

Frentzen127 wrote:What would McLaren lean on?

Based on current form, the tyre barrier

They'll be running on lean fuel and oil levels at this rate.

IceG wrote:Fernando is not happy https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alon ... ty-880808/

Can he really spend another season sitting in a deckchair by the side of the track?

I rarely feel sorry for multi-millionaire F1 drivers and I don't with Alonso but I do think it's a shame a driver of his talent has run out of time to win another championship, because I think that's where we are now at this stage in his career. But it's a fact of life, time is always running out and at least he has two championships and a good reputation (currently) to his name. He's out of contract at the end of the season (bet he can't wait) and unless something out of the ordinary happens I think he'll retire.

I was thinking about all those great drivers who've just hung on, desperate to keep racing in F1, slowly sliding down the grid like Alboreto or Alesi, and then it occurred to me that's what Alonso has actually already done. The slow slide to irrelevance.

CoopsII wrote:

IceG wrote:Fernando is not happy https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alon ... ty-880808/

Can he really spend another season sitting in a deckchair by the side of the track?

I rarely feel sorry for multi-millionaire F1 drivers and I don't with Alonso but I do think it's a shame a driver of his talent has run out of time to win another championship, because I think that's where we are now at this stage in his career. But it's a fact of life, time is always running out and at least he has two championships and a good reputation (currently) to his name. He's out of contract at the end of the season (bet he can't wait) and unless something out of the ordinary happens I think he'll retire.

I was thinking about all those great drivers who've just hung on, desperate to keep racing in F1, slowly sliding down the grid like Alboreto or Alesi, and then it occurred to me that's what Alonso has actually already done. The slow slide to irrelevance.

Things can still be worse for Alonso, though. If Ferrari can materialize their testing competitiveness, they might even win the championship in Alonso's final F1 year. What that would be like for him? I imagine like sliding down a razors slide and diving straight into the dead sea.

DanielPT wrote:Things can still be worse for Alonso, though. If Ferrari can materialize their testing competitiveness, they might even win the championship in Alonso's final F1 year. What that would be like for him? I imagine like sliding down a razors slide and diving straight into the dead sea.

Well, even when Ferrari were woeful they were still better than McLaren so I'm sure Alonso has already plumbed the depths of frustration regarding that one.

Also, describing Alonso as retiring at the end of the year makes it sound like quite a happy conclusion when I don't think it will be. Maybe it's the word 'retirement', it conjures up images of cuddly old folk relaxing and pondering on their life experiences. There really isn't a suitable word to cover miserable-after-three-wasted-seasons-with-an-appalling-engine-and-with-no-team-willing-to-take-him-on-as-he-approaches-middle-age.

Well, no word that springs to mind.

I've been reading the BBC coverage of preseason testing while in work, and I saw perhaps the most astounding part of the entire off season - yes, more surprising than Rosberg's retirement.

The poll question for today was, "Which team have you got most excited about in F1 testing?" The second highest team? MCLAREN.

Then again, considering the Brexit vote, perhaps it's not a surprise that the UK is full of idiots.

Well to be fair having a sub-par engine after 3 years and change if you're an institution of Honda's repute is nothing short of astounding. I suppose there's enough reasons to be excited about the upcoming season if one is a McLaren fan. I for one cannot wait to see what BS excuses Eric Boullier comes up with, week in, week out. Good enough material to write a book about, surely.

Salamander wrote:Then again, considering the Brexit vote, perhaps it's not a surprise that the UK is full of idiots.

I'd hardly say 51.9% of the population being idiots means we all are.

CoopsII wrote:

Salamander wrote:Then again, considering the Brexit vote, perhaps it's not a surprise that the UK is full of idiots.

I'd hardly say 51.9% of the population being idiots means we all are.

I didn't say we all are... just that we were full of them.

The atmosphere must be fairly toxic at McLaren right now and I don't see a change to customer engines as an option - Mercedes are clearly not supplying the full deal to their customers and never will if they've any sense.

Are Williams the only team which didn't have any reliability problems during the two tests?

CoopsII wrote:

Salamander wrote:Then again, considering the Brexit vote, perhaps it's not a surprise that the UK is full of idiots.

I'd hardly say 51.9% of the population being idiots means we all are.

Still the majority.

Salamander wrote:

CoopsII wrote:

Salamander wrote:Then again, considering the Brexit vote, perhaps it's not a surprise that the UK is full of idiots.

I'd hardly say 51.9% of the population being idiots means we all are.

I didn't say we all are... just that we were full of them.

I'd say that the more telling statistic would be one question which was asked to test the ability of the British people to understand basic statistics. The question was "If I flip two coins, what is the probability that they will both land heads up?" - I believe that 74% of the population of the UK couldn't answer that question correctly.