The HRT thread

[David AGS]

Have Catenham got KERS for next year?

[dr-baker]

Have Catenham got KERS for next year?

I think that's the plan. I think...

[DanielPT]

HRT takes 10th in constructors cup in 2012. You heard it here first.
(I know that's nearly impossible but if this happens I will become a waaaay cool guy)

Well, OTHAEBD (acronym because Off Throttle Hot Air Exhaust Blown Diffusers is quite a mouthful) being banned, will only draw HRT and Virgin closer to Lotus. Lotus was able to be so close to the midfielders this year thanks to their Renault engone getting them the best resluts from the blown diffuser. hey were a few tenths away, and considering that they, unlike those ahead of them, don't have KERS, and KERS is worth several tenths of a seocnd per lap, you can see that the OTHAEBD really did close up the gap quite a lot.

On the other hand I am pretty sure that the solution found by Lotus wasn't nearly as good as the closest rivals in midfield (Williams and Toro Rosso). If anything the bad of such device will put the new teams closer to the midfield, although the lack of KERS will hurt HRT and Virgin.

[S951]

yeah they do david

[cbbcisace]

Everyone knows that HRT will have KERS next season?

[mario]

Have Catenham got KERS for next year?

I think that's the plan. I think...

That is correct - Gascoyne brokered a deal with Red Bull Technology that will give them access to the Red Bull KERS, with the terms of the deal seemingly giving them access to the latest specification (although Kravitz did reveal late on in the season that Red Bull Technology are not guaranteeing that their system will have the same capacity as their rivals - they intend to expand their capacity to 60kW for 2012, but that is something that is still under development).
As for HRT, the terms of their deal with Williams include the option to use the battery KERS Williams currently use as part of their partnership with Williams, though exactly what specification HRT will get is slightly less clear (probably also the 2012 specification system).

[DanielPT]

Have Catenham got KERS for next year?

I think that's the plan. I think...

That is correct - Gascoyne brokered a deal with Red Bull Technology that will give them access to the Red Bull KERS, with the terms of the deal seemingly giving them access to the latest specification (although Kravitz did reveal late on in the season that Red Bull Technology are not guaranteeing that their system will have the same capacity as their rivals - they intend to expand their capacity to 60kW for 2012, but that is something that is still under development).
As for HRT, the terms of their deal with Williams include the option to use the battery KERS Williams currently use as part of their partnership with Williams, though exactly what specification HRT will get is slightly less clear (probably also the 2012 specification system).

HRT will use KERS next season? Then Marussia will be the only one not to...

It makes sense that the specification supplied by Williams should be the one of this past season. It was the one made to work with Cosworth.

[mario]

Have Catenham got KERS for next year?

I think that's the plan. I think...

That is correct - Gascoyne brokered a deal with Red Bull Technology that will give them access to the Red Bull KERS, with the terms of the deal seemingly giving them access to the latest specification (although Kravitz did reveal late on in the season that Red Bull Technology are not guaranteeing that their system will have the same capacity as their rivals - they intend to expand their capacity to 60kW for 2012, but that is something that is still under development).
As for HRT, the terms of their deal with Williams include the option to use the battery KERS Williams currently use as part of their partnership with Williams, though exactly what specification HRT will get is slightly less clear (probably also the 2012 specification system).

HRT will use KERS next season? Then Marussia will be the only one not to...

It makes sense that the specification supplied by Williams should be the one of this past season. It was the one made to work with Cosworth.

HRT are expected to use the Williams KERS unit in 2012 (they have a deal to use it for 2012), so unless something fairly catastrophic happens between now and the start of the season the F112 should be equipped with KERS. As for the specification, it's not entirely clear what exactly they'll get, though given the reasonably static rules there are unlikely to be any major differences between the two systems anyway (only Red Bull are making significant changes because they chose to go for a smaller, but more tightly packaged, system in 2011).
So, for now at least it does look as if Marussia will be the only team not using KERS in 2012, though that isn't an entirely surprising decision. The current estimates of the benefits of KERS put the time gain typically around 0.3s a lap. Given that the gap between them and the tail end of the midfield can be measured in seconds rather than tenths, and the relatively limited budget of the team, there are potentially far bigger time gains to be realised from working on the aero package instead of the KERS.

[AndreaModa]

So, for now at least it does look as if Marussia will be the only team not using KERS in 2012, though that isn't an entirely surprising decision. The current estimates of the benefits of KERS put the time gain typically around 0.3s a lap. Given that the gap between them and the tail end of the midfield can be measured in seconds rather than tenths, and the relatively limited budget of the team, there are potentially far bigger time gains to be realised from working on the aero package instead of the KERS.

Exactly the reason Lotus didn't use it this year, because they felt they'd be better off spending money in other areas than trying to run a KERS unit for little gain. I can guarantee the KERS units will cause major headaches for those two teams, particularly for HRT with their more restricted budget. I suspect we'll see more than a few failures in the first part of the season.

[Minardi Man]

So, for now at least it does look as if Marussia will be the only team not using KERS in 2012, though that isn't an entirely surprising decision. The current estimates of the benefits of KERS put the time gain typically around 0.3s a lap. Given that the gap between them and the tail end of the midfield can be measured in seconds rather than tenths, and the relatively limited budget of the team, there are potentially far bigger time gains to be realised from working on the aero package instead of the KERS.

Exactly the reason Lotus didn't use it this year, because they felt they'd be better off spending money in other areas than trying to run a KERS unit for little gain. I can guarantee the KERS units will cause major headaches for those two teams, particularly for HRT with their more restricted budget. I suspect we'll see more than a few failures in the first part of the season.

Maybe not, the williams unit has been fairly reliable throughout, and the red bull unit seems to have gotten much more reliable over time as well, and i'd have enough confidence in the green team to keep on top of it, though for both teams working it into the new cars might be problematic again.
Personally, I think Marussia have made the best decission in leaving KERS alone for now, although it probably still won't help them enough.

[AndreaModa]

My point is that the installation, and the teams' unfamiliarity of running the KERS system will undoubtedly lead to headaches during the first few races as they get used to it.

[mario]

So, for now at least it does look as if Marussia will be the only team not using KERS in 2012, though that isn't an entirely surprising decision. The current estimates of the benefits of KERS put the time gain typically around 0.3s a lap. Given that the gap between them and the tail end of the midfield can be measured in seconds rather than tenths, and the relatively limited budget of the team, there are potentially far bigger time gains to be realised from working on the aero package instead of the KERS.

Exactly the reason Lotus didn't use it this year, because they felt they'd be better off spending money in other areas than trying to run a KERS unit for little gain. I can guarantee the KERS units will cause major headaches for those two teams, particularly for HRT with their more restricted budget. I suspect we'll see more than a few failures in the first part of the season.

Maybe not, the williams unit has been fairly reliable throughout, and the red bull unit seems to have gotten much more reliable over time as well, and i'd have enough confidence in the green team to keep on top of it, though for both teams working it into the new cars might be problematic again.
Personally, I think Marussia have made the best decission in leaving KERS alone for now, although it probably still won't help them enough.

The Red Bull KERS seemed to be a bit temperamental in Webber's hands, at least during the earlier half of the season. In addition, Red Bull haven't been pushing the absolute limits of what the rules allow since they undersized their KERS battery and charge/discharge system, though that is unlikely to make a massive difference to reliability. As for Williams, they have been struggling a little and not just with reliability (remember that Rubens found that the Williams system caused enough handling problems when harvesting energy for the team to remove his KERS in Hungary during the practise sessions), though that seemed to improve as the season went on too - though out of the two the Red Bull system looks like a slightly better bet at this point.

True, to begin with it is possible that they might have a few problems with reliability and integration, though given that Team Lotus/Caterham are likely to be carrying over more things than HRT for their 2012 design it may be easier for them to deal with any problems. Furthermore, at least KERS is not a failure critical system - it can cause handling problems (which was why Button was struggling for pace for so long in Abu Dhabi - he was often heading into a braking zone without being entirely sure what his brake balance would be, since the KERS unit kept switching on and off randomly), but at least a failed KERS unit won't be catastrophic.
And from the point of view of Gascoyne and his development team, they are already beginning to exhaust the cheaper options to upgrade their car - with the standardised weight distribution and increased minimum weight, the packaging and weight distribution problems are now outweighed enough by the benefits of KERS to make it the next logical step for the team to look for performance (plus the stricter technical regulations on KERS means that it a reasonably cheap add on).

[DemocalypseNow]

As Mensa Suomi & Multiple WRC champion Marcus Gronholm once said; "I don't know, but it will be sh*t."

I think that sums up the F112 nicely.

[AdrianSutil]

As Mensa Suomi & Multiple WRC champion Marcus Gronholm once said; "I don't know, but it will be sh*t."

I think that sums up the F112 nicely.

HRT are always going to be the team struggling to make one pre-season test. But I'll bet anyone on here that HRT finish ahead of Marussia for a third year running.

[DanielPT]

As Mensa Suomi & Multiple WRC champion Marcus Gronholm once said; "I don't know, but it will be sh*t."

I think that sums up the F112 nicely.

HRT are always going to be the team struggling to make one pre-season test. But I'll bet anyone on here that HRT finish ahead of Marussia for a third year running.

Do not forget Marussia ditched Wirth and made an agreement with McLaren while HRT went for Williams instead... Which means that HRT not only have to improve their package but they will need to improve Williams stuff too!

[mario]

As Mensa Suomi & Multiple WRC champion Marcus Gronholm once said; "I don't know, but it will be sh*t."

I think that sums up the F112 nicely.

HRT are always going to be the team struggling to make one pre-season test. But I'll bet anyone on here that HRT finish ahead of Marussia for a third year running.

Do not forget Marussia ditched Wirth and made an agreement with McLaren while HRT went for Williams instead... Which means that HRT not only have to improve their package but they will need to improve Williams stuff too!

True, Williams did have problems with their car in 2011, particularly with the transmission - mind you, Marussia are sticking with the Xtrac transmission for now (the partnership with McLaren, for now at least, is mostly restricted to joint technical research), which isn't a good deal better even with a years worth of development. Also, bear in mind that HRT does have access to Mercedes's wind tunnel too, though whether they'll have the opportunity to use it is another matter given the disruption caused by relocating their base.
Overall, I wouldn't be massively surprised if the relative performance of the two outfits is similar to this year - in which case, it'll probably be down to pure luck who ends up ahead of whom. It remains to be seen, though, whether the team are lucky enough for that to happen three times in a row...

[Captain Hammer]

I don't think the Xtrac had nearly as many problems in 2011 as it did in 2010.

[DanielPT]

I don't think the Xtrac had nearly as many problems in 2011 as it did in 2010.

That is true. But is highly debatable if having Xtrac benefited it's users this year. I am afraid that better packages, which could bring HRT and Marussia closer to the midfield, are available for the take and that will lead to the end of Xtrac in F1. A bit like Cosworth and a possible reason to why PURE might struggle to find costumers.

[AndreaModa]

As Mensa Suomi & Multiple WRC champion Marcus Gronholm once said; "I don't know, but it will be sh*t."

I think that sums up the F112 nicely.

HRT are always going to be the team struggling to make one pre-season test. But I'll bet anyone on here that HRT finish ahead of Marussia for a third year running.

I'll bet you my reputation on this forum that they will get thoroughly beaten by Marussia in 2012, for the reasons I listed in my post before Christmas.

[AdrianSutil]

As Mensa Suomi & Multiple WRC champion Marcus Gronholm once said; "I don't know, but it will be sh*t."

I think that sums up the F112 nicely.

HRT are always going to be the team struggling to make one pre-season test. But I'll bet anyone on here that HRT finish ahead of Marussia for a third year running.

I'll bet you my reputation on this forum that they will get thoroughly beaten by Marussia in 2012, for the reasons I listed in my post before Christmas.

Don't HRT have the back half of a Williams on their car this year? Whilst Marussia are taking just 'technical imformation' from McLaren? I'd rather be in HRT's shoes tbh. Sure, the Wirth-designed car has finally been ditched, but how far can 'technical information' get you?

[TomWazzleshaw]

HRT are always going to be the team struggling to make one pre-season test. But I'll bet anyone on here that HRT finish ahead of Marussia for a third year running.

I'll bet you my reputation on this forum that they will get thoroughly beaten by Marussia in 2012, for the reasons I listed in my post before Christmas.

Don't HRT have the back half of a Williams on their car this year? Whilst Marussia are taking just 'technical imformation' from McLaren? I'd rather be in HRT's shoes tbh. Sure, the Wirth-designed car has finally been ditched, but how far can 'technical information' get you?

Sauber did just fine in 2010 with DLR's knowledge about the McLaren F-Duct system.

[mario]

Don't HRT have the back half of a Williams on their car this year? Whilst Marussia are taking just 'technical imformation' from McLaren? I'd rather be in HRT's shoes tbh. Sure, the Wirth-designed car has finally been ditched, but how far can 'technical information' get you?

Sort of - they have a Williams transmission and hydraulics system on their car which will be updated to the latest specification in 2012, not to mention the agreement they have with Mercedes to use their wind tunnel.
As for Marussia, a technical partnership between the two sides is still potentially quite useful - plus, there was some talk that McLaren might be embedding some of their staff within Marussia as a monitoring exercise (and because under the terms of the Resource Restriction Agreement McLaren needed to cut its headcount). It also has to be said that Force India do seem to have been performing more strongly since they joined forces with McLaren in 2009, so although it may take a couple of years to feed through, Marussia could start picking up speed around 2013.

[DanielPT]

Don't HRT have the back half of a Williams on their car this year? Whilst Marussia are taking just 'technical imformation' from McLaren? I'd rather be in HRT's shoes tbh. Sure, the Wirth-designed car has finally been ditched, but how far can 'technical information' get you?

Sort of - they have a Williams transmission and hydraulics system on their car which will be updated to the latest specification in 2012, not to mention the agreement they have with Mercedes to use their wind tunnel.
As for Marussia, a technical partnership between the two sides is still potentially quite useful - plus, there was some talk that McLaren might be embedding some of their staff within Marussia as a monitoring exercise (and because under the terms of the Resource Restriction Agreement McLaren needed to cut its headcount). It also has to be said that Force India do seem to have been performing more strongly since they joined forces with McLaren in 2009, so although it may take a couple of years to feed through, Marussia could start picking up speed around 2013.

If they manage to last until 2013, that is.

[solarcold]

wowowowo, now this is fun... Sign me into the HRT shoes too please.

[AdrianSutil]

Sauber did just fine in 2010 with DLR's knowledge about the McLaren F-Duct system.

After Sauber got their own reliability sorted out yeah. You need to make the car work before any useful information can take place. Seeing how poorly Marussia have been, I can still see no improvement yet.

[mario]

Don't HRT have the back half of a Williams on their car this year? Whilst Marussia are taking just 'technical imformation' from McLaren? I'd rather be in HRT's shoes tbh. Sure, the Wirth-designed car has finally been ditched, but how far can 'technical information' get you?

Sort of - they have a Williams transmission and hydraulics system on their car which will be updated to the latest specification in 2012, not to mention the agreement they have with Mercedes to use their wind tunnel.
As for Marussia, a technical partnership between the two sides is still potentially quite useful - plus, there was some talk that McLaren might be embedding some of their staff within Marussia as a monitoring exercise (and because under the terms of the Resource Restriction Agreement McLaren needed to cut its headcount). It also has to be said that Force India do seem to have been performing more strongly since they joined forces with McLaren in 2009, so although it may take a couple of years to feed through, Marussia could start picking up speed around 2013.

If they manage to last until 2013, that is.

Fair point - given that Marussia are still relying on pay drivers and the team is not on the firmest financial footing or particularly well funded, there is always the risk that the team could collapse before that point. Moreover, at the moment nobody has made it entirely clear where the funding for this technical partnership with McLaren has come from - I assume that it comes from Marussia, but it won't be cheap and the team really will have to beat HRT if they want to improve their chances of a greater share of the prize money (their chances of survival may well turn on that).
HRT isn't exactly that much better off either, though - yes, Thesan Capital is investing in the company, but when Perez Sala expects things to get worse before they get better and the relocation of their base came at a very difficult time for the team, things aren't looking all that auspicious for the future for them right now.

[jackanderton]

Formula One aren't making becoming a new team very attractive a business proposition. Essentially inviting teams in on a proviso that spending would be cut across the board, then expecting them to survive when that doesn't happen is ridiculous. The last team at the back of the grid to make a genuine improvement was Force India- but I don't see HRT or Marussia being given the help they got. All the three new teams have different names to 2 years ago when they entered.

[TomWazzleshaw]

Formula One aren't making becoming a new team very attractive a business proposition. Essentially inviting teams in on a proviso that spending would be cut across the board, then expecting them to survive when that doesn't happen is ridiculous. The last team at the back of the grid to make a genuine improvement was Force India- but I don't see HRT or Marussia being given the help they got. All the three new teams have different names to 2 years ago when they entered.

Well the selection process was fundamentally flawed to begin with regardless of a budget cap or not

[DanielPT]

Formula One aren't making becoming a new team very attractive a business proposition. Essentially inviting teams in on a proviso that spending would be cut across the board, then expecting them to survive when that doesn't happen is ridiculous. The last team at the back of the grid to make a genuine improvement was Force India- but I don't see HRT or Marussia being given the help they got. All the three new teams have different names to 2 years ago when they entered.

Well the selection process was fundamentally flawed to begin with regardless of a budget cap or not

It shows that, from the 4 teams selected only two made the grid and are the slowest ones by far. They even got surpassed by a third team which replaced a first choice team only months before the start of the season. Max and his minions clearly screwed up on this one. Besides, knowing Max history this was never going to be a neutral and fair selection process.

[Ataxia]

Formula One aren't making becoming a new team very attractive a business proposition. Essentially inviting teams in on a proviso that spending would be cut across the board, then expecting them to survive when that doesn't happen is ridiculous. The last team at the back of the grid to make a genuine improvement was Force India- but I don't see HRT or Marussia being given the help they got. All the three new teams have different names to 2 years ago when they entered.

Well the selection process was fundamentally flawed to begin with regardless of a budget cap or not

It shows that, from the 4 teams selected only two made the grid and are the slowest ones by far. They even got surpassed by a third team which replaced a first choice team only months before the start of the season. Max and his minions clearly screwed up on this one. Besides, knowing Max history this was never going to be a neutral and fair selection process.

I do wish that bias towards those who would use the Cosworth engine was gone in that selection process. Stefan GP, for example had the chassis and engine more or less in place, and probably would have made more of an impact on the grid. They also had the (relative) experience of KazNak in the car, and had Mike Coughlan on the technical team with the support of AMCO. How this entry lost to Campos/HRT, who kept defaulting payments to Dallara for a substandard car and USF1 (who just, well, gave up), I don't know.

Surely as well, Lola and Prodrive would have been far better options. The FIA ended up choosing the some of the worst equipped entries just because they favoured Cosworth engines, and the process was handled incredibly badly, to boot. The process should have looked more at whether the team had the facilities to manufacture a car that wouldn't be 4-5 seconds off the pace, and whether the financial aspects of the team were well structured and backed with some sponsors.

All we hear about HRT is pure lack of money. Back when there was Minardi, they offset any shortfall with tons of little sponsors (exhibit A: sidepods of the M02) and to a degree, paydrivers (though there were quite a few with talent). But the HRT car is as blank as the designer's draftboards, they stuck a new front nose to the F110 and christened it the F111, and are rivalling Jordan/Midland/Spyker/FI for most changes in senior management. (I count 3 so far, Campos/Carabante/Ruiz de Marcos.) And on the driver front, they hired two rookies with potential (Chandhok and Senna) and scrapped them for has-been in Liuzzi and a never-was-but-I'm-backed-by-Tata in Karthikeyan. Technically, they took a step forward with de la Rosa but the last seat needs to be saved for someone with talent (and maybe a bit of cash). So not Sakon Yamamoto.

Marussia, well, they can't make their minds up can they? They were an extension of Manor Motorsport who have tons of pedigree in lesser formulae. Richard Branson came in, stuck Virgin in the name and on the car a little bit, but didn't really put his money where his mouth was. Nick Wirth's CFD experiment never worked, and clearly Glock is wasted at the team. If Marussia can change the whole team into one that performs with a well-designed car (with Pat Symonds at the helm, the technical team should pull their weight, plus that tie-up with Mclaren) and get Glock enjoying his driving once again, who knows? Maybe even Pic will give him a run for his money.

In my mind, Marussia will probably outdo HRT next season, as things look a little better on the design front for them. HRT lost Geoff Willis, and that is quite a blow.

[Peter]

As Mensa Suomi & Multiple WRC champion Marcus Gronholm once said; "I don't know, but it will be sh*t."

I think that sums up the F112 nicely.

HRT are always going to be the team struggling to make one pre-season test. But I'll bet anyone on here that HRT finish ahead of Marussia for a third year running.

I'll bet you my reputation on this forum that they will get thoroughly beaten by Marussia in 2012, for the reasons I listed in my post before Christmas.

And I will also bet mine against you, that Hispania will beat Marussia yet again. This time, once again, thanks to having the best reliability of the new teams. And thanks to having KERS, which is arguably worth up ot 8 tenths of a second per lap depending on the track.

Then again, your points were valid points which make complete sense, and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Marussia beat HRT next year.

[RonDenisDeletraz]

Reject avatar challenge Round 3

[Peter]

Reject avatar challenge Round 3

Precisely! Let's do it!

[cbbcisace]

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate ... hance.html

Some new info re the new car and other things relating to HRT.

de la Rosa already been to Germany, wonder if he has had seat fitting?

[Pointrox]

Well, apart from the bit about D'Ambrosio and the development details (about Brackley) - nothing we haven't heard/read before.
Plus, they once again confirmed the usage of Cosworth engines.
Confirm the second driver for HWNSNBM's sake!

[solarcold]

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2012/01/ ... alencia-2/

How do you like it?

[mario]

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2012/01/11/meanwhile-in-valencia-2/

How do you like it?

It seems that Joe's comments have not gone down very well in the Spanish press, nor with HRT - it seems that the team have dismissed Joe Saward's comments that the team will run an updated F111 for the opening races as "totally false".
That said, HRT are still uncertain about when they will reveal the F112 - it may be launched at the first test in Jerez depending on their latest development work, but the more likely scenario is that the car will be launched in Barcelona (where the next test is scheduled for the 21st - 24th Feb). Mind you, if they are hoping to launch the car either at Jerez or Barcelona, I would have expected them to have announced that they've passed their crash tests (it is now mandatory to pass the crash tests before testing) - Force India, for example, completed their crash tests back in December.

[cbbcisace]

Is it mandatory to announce you have passed crash tests? I don't think Marussia have done either?

Saying that has Joe got something HRT, maybe because Liuzzi and Kolles aren't going to be with them next year.

The article I posted yesterday suggested the PDLR has already been to Germany and they are not using the Dallara derived F111 to make the F112.

[mario]

Is it mandatory to announce you have passed crash tests? I don't think Marussia have done either?

Saying that has Joe got something HRT, maybe because Liuzzi and Kolles aren't going to be with them next year.

The article I posted yesterday suggested the PDLR has already been to Germany and they are not using the Dallara derived F111 to make the F112.

Whilst it is not mandatory to formally announce that you've passed the crash tests - only a handful of teams have already announced that they've passed the tests - I would have thought that HRT would have wanted to announce that they've passed the crash tests as a way of proving that the F112 is on schedule, not to mention helping dispel the rumours that they are re-using parts from the F111 by demonstrating that the F112 has a different chassis.
As an aside, as far as I am aware Marussia have not publicly announced they've passed the crash tests - but as things stand Marussia haven't even confirmed when the new car will be revealed or which tests they'll attend. Neither, for that matter, have Caterham, Lotus or Toro Rosso announced when they'll formally launch their cars, though Ferrari have confirmed that they are launching their car on the 3rd Feb.

And it is true that Joe Saward may have be biased against HRT given that he probably feels that the current management have treated Kolles in an unfair manner, not to mention the possibility that they may drop Liuzzi (who we know Saward is biased towards). As things stand Joe seems to be the only person, at least that I am definitely aware of, who has indicated that HRT will be using an updated F111 (though to make a slight correction Joe didn't say that the F112 will be derived from the F111 - what he says is that the team will use an updated F111 as a stopgap car for 2012 until the new car is ready, which is more along the lines of what Ferrari did in 2002 and 2003), so until another party can independently verify that we have to assume that the report is speculative.

[cbbcisace]

If i remember rightly they announced the F111 crash tests at the 2nd test last year.

If they want the F112 ready for the 1st test, I would imagine the car is already ready.

I remember HRT saying that the aero parts would be ready by late December and we are now in January.

Also if Jerome D' Ambrosio is believed to be in the running - does he have biggish sponsorships?