Grand Prix Rejects

Simtek wrote:Manor hiring some new staff. Things definitely seem to be improving for them at the moment.

Having seen this news I was thinking about something earlier today. Manor are, to all intents and purposes, a "proper racing team" in that they exist to go motor racing. They've done most of the junior categories and given drives to plenty of young drivers, and now find themselves in F1.

When was the last time a team like Manor actually made the graduation to F1? Litespeed were obviously tantalisingly close in 2009/10 before Fernandes bought their entry off them, and had Prodrive been granted entry using customer McLaren cars I guess you could count them. But prior to that how far back do you go? Lola in 1997? Forti in 1995? Pacific in 1994? All of those teams went to the wall within two years of their existence. The most recent one I can think of is Stewart, which effectively evolved out of Paul Stewart Racing.

My point is, there's been a serious amount of time since we last had an actual racing organisation step up to F1, let alone survive for five seasons. When you consider the amount of money needed to run a team these days, what has been achieved is nothing short of remarkable, and totally against the general run of play that the sport has witnessed over the last two decades. Even Stewart were backed heavily by Ford and were only around for three seasons themselves. Thus the last privateer team to enter and then actually survive for five years in F1 is Sauber, which is quite a shocking statistic in my mind.

So good on ya Manor, and let's hope these recent hirings are a sign of better things to come!

AndreaModa wrote:

Simtek wrote:Manor hiring some new staff. Things definitely seem to be improving for them at the moment.

Having seen this news I was thinking about something earlier today. Manor are, to all intents and purposes, a "proper racing team" in that they exist to go motor racing. They've done most of the junior categories and given drives to plenty of young drivers, and now find themselves in F1.

When was the last time a team like Manor actually made the graduation to F1? Litespeed were obviously tantalisingly close in 2009/10 before Fernandes bought their entry off them, and had Prodrive been granted entry using customer McLaren cars I guess you could count them. But prior to that how far back do you go? Lola in 1997? Forti in 1995? Pacific in 1994? All of those teams went to the wall within two years of their existence. The most recent one I can think of is Stewart, which effectively evolved out of Paul Stewart Racing.

My point is, there's been a serious amount of time since we last had an actual racing organisation step up to F1, let alone survive for five seasons. When you consider the amount of money needed to run a team these days, what has been achieved is nothing short of remarkable, and totally against the general run of play that the sport has witnessed over the last two decades. Even Stewart were backed heavily by Ford and were only around for three seasons themselves. Thus the last privateer team to enter and then actually survive for five years in F1 is Sauber, which is quite a shocking statistic in my mind.

So good on ya Manor, and let's hope these recent hirings are a sign of better things to come!

I have to agree that this is pretty good news for the team - those are fairly high profile and respected individuals, which should hopefully put them in fairly good stead for the future.

It does seem to have sparked a bit of speculation however - as some are speculating that these hirings won't have been cheap, is this an indication that Manor have managed to access a new source of capital? If so, that could be just as promising for the team too, since it would give them a bit more stability for the longer term too.

Now Manor have signed an official reserve driver, and a former GP2 champion no less, in the shape of Fabio Leimer

Warren Hughes wrote:Now Manor have signed an official reserve driver, and a former GP2 champion no less, in the shape of Fabio Leimer

Suddenly Manor starts to look like a team with some future. I like it!

HABEMUS NEW SPONSOR!!!

https://twitter.com/ManorF1Team/status/ ... 2321952770

AdrianBelmonte_ wrote:HABEMUS NEW SPONSOR!!!

https://twitter.com/ManorF1Team/status/ ... 2321952770

#moreattractivethanmclaren

AdrianBelmonte_ wrote:HABEMUS NEW SPONSOR!!!

https://twitter.com/ManorF1Team/status/ ... 2321952770

Bloody hell! Good company as well, Airbnb is getting big now. Wonder how much they paid?

AndreaModa wrote:

AdrianBelmonte_ wrote:HABEMUS NEW SPONSOR!!!

https://twitter.com/ManorF1Team/status/ ... 2321952770

Bloody hell! Good company as well, Airbnb is getting big now. Wonder how much they paid?

It might be a partnership rather than a straight up financial deal. After all, the purse strings are awfully tight at Manor. Perhaps the branding is there in exchange for free accomodation near all the venues!

That did cross my mind, but that would be a hell of a lot of rooms required for all the personnel at the track!

In today's thrilling episode of Manorwatch, here's how the qualifying times compared with last year:

Chilton (2014) 1'18.348
Bianchi (2014) 1'18.359
Merhi (2015) 1'19.133
Stevens (2015) 1'19.157

Both Caterhams last year posted a time slower than this year's Manors. When there was talk of saving the team at the end of last year, they'd be given dispensation to run their 2014 car with the appropriate modifications the way Manor are doing - so how far away would they be?

Their practice and qualifying pace is decent compared with their race pace. It seems to me that they're going fast in the important areas, and for the sake of reliability (and therefore cost-saving), they're turning down some important parts for the race itself. It's not the ideal strategy, but probably the right one for Manor right now.

Rob Dylan wrote:Their practice and qualifying pace is decent compared with their race pace. It seems to me that they're going fast in the important areas, and for the sake of reliability (and therefore cost-saving), they're turning down some important parts for the race itself. It's not the ideal strategy, but probably the right one for Manor right now.

Indeed. At full speed, they're still nowhere near fast enough, so they might as well focus on finishing the races and hope to pick up attrition-based results.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/manor ... onda-link/

http://www.grandprix247.com/2015/06/15/ ... nda-power/

So, Manor could be the McLaren-B team or simply be a "rat lab" of Honda. I think Manor have nothing to lose in switching engines and if Honda improves in the next year, Manor could reduce the large gap between they and the middlefield.

Dj_bereta wrote:http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/manor-says-f1-engine-plans-open-amid-honda-link/

http://www.grandprix247.com/2015/06/15/ ... nda-power/

So, Manor could be the McLaren-B team or simply be a "rat lab" of Honda. I think Manor have nothing to lose in switching engines and if Honda improves in the next year, Manor could reduce the large gap between they and the middlefield.

At the moment they have. Ditching that Ferrari engine for an Honda might mean losing to the 107% rule in some places... It is a gamble. Unless McLaren gives them stuff and I mean lots of it, they will most likely lose by switching engines.

DanielPT wrote:

Dj_bereta wrote:http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/manor-says-f1-engine-plans-open-amid-honda-link/

http://www.grandprix247.com/2015/06/15/ ... nda-power/

So, Manor could be the McLaren-B team or simply be a "rat lab" of Honda. I think Manor have nothing to lose in switching engines and if Honda improves in the next year, Manor could reduce the large gap between they and the middlefield.

At the moment they have. Ditching that Ferrari engine for an Honda might mean losing to the 107% rule in some places... It is a gamble. Unless McLaren gives them stuff and I mean lots of it, they will most likely lose by switching engines.

Don't they currently use the 2014 Ferrari power unit? I doubt that the difference between the 2014 Ferrari and the 2015 Honda units is that big, or is it?

tBone wrote:Don't they currently use the 2014 Ferrari power unit? I doubt that the difference between the 2014 Ferrari and the 2015 Honda units is that big, or is it?

Yes, but with the 2015 car, which they will hopefully introduce sooner rather than later (or next year) the 2015 Ferrari engine is expected to be used. But even the 2014 unit is better than the 2015 Honda.

DanielPT wrote:Yes, but with the 2015 car, which they will hopefully introduce sooner rather than later (or next year) the 2015 Ferrari engine is expected to be used.

Is it? Where have you read that? I've been wondering the same thing myself but haven't seen anything to confirm they'd switch to 2015 engines.

I highly doubt we'll see a revised 2015 chassis this year from Manor now though. They know they can easily make 107% in the MR03B and get it to the finish as well. Why spend money on a car that will achieve little extra when they can just collect the dollar this year and splurge it all on a 2016 design?

Since the article claims that this would be a customer deal. HELLS TO THE NO! That motor is a joke. But if they are free.....

Wallio wrote:Since the article claims that this would be a customer deal. HELLS TO THE NO! That motor is a joke. But if they are free.....

Doesn't mean they always will be. I don't know how many times I have to say something to the effect of "Honda's doing all of their development out in the open", but if people were a little more patient rather than simply taking it at face value perhaps we'd look upon it with more positivity. I can imagine the people at Honda working on the engine are sick to the back teeth of the constant negative press, and they'll be working ridiculously hard to try and get their engines up to scratch.

If Manor are able to get Hondas for 2016, it can only be a positive; they've got Bob Bell to steer things in the right direction, so hopefully it's a partnership that can produce positive results IF it comes to fruition. Having some help from McLaren wouldn't go amiss either...especially in the driver department.

Ataxia wrote:

Wallio wrote:Since the article claims that this would be a customer deal. HELLS TO THE NO! That motor is a joke. But if they are free.....

Doesn't mean they always will be. I don't know how many times I have to say something to the effect of "Honda's doing all of their development out in the open", but if people were a little more patient rather than simply taking it at face value perhaps we'd look upon it with more positivity. I can imagine the people at Honda working on the engine are sick to the back teeth of the constant negative press, and they'll be working ridiculously hard to try and get their engines up to scratch.

If Manor are able to get Hondas for 2016, it can only be a positive; they've got Bob Bell to steer things in the right direction, so hopefully it's a partnership that can produce positive results IF it comes to fruition. Having some help from McLaren wouldn't go amiss either...especially in the driver department.

Although the Honda powertrain is currently underperforming, at the same time Marussia are somewhat exposed given that, ever since Bianchi's accident, the ties between Marussia and Ferrari have been weakened considerably.

With Bernie showing signs of hostility towards them and with their finances still on a shaky footing, being able to secure support from a potentially influential manufacturer like Honda would potentially help stabilise the team. Furthermore, as you say, being able to tap into McLaren's resources would also offer the team something of a lifeline too - especially since, given the relationship Haas is developing with Ferrari, Marussia may face a situation where they either have to follow suit or end up being squeezed out for good.

Ataxia wrote:

Wallio wrote:Since the article claims that this would be a customer deal. HELLS TO THE NO! That motor is a joke. But if they are free.....

Doesn't mean they always will be. I don't know how many times I have to say something to the effect of "Honda's doing all of their development out in the open", but if people were a little more patient rather than simply taking it at face value perhaps we'd look upon it with more positivity. I can imagine the people at Honda working on the engine are sick to the back teeth of the constant negative press, and they'll be working ridiculously hard to try and get their engines up to scratch.

If Manor are able to get Hondas for 2016, it can only be a positive; they've got Bob Bell to steer things in the right direction, so hopefully it's a partnership that can produce positive results IF it comes to fruition. Having some help from McLaren wouldn't go amiss either...especially in the driver department.

Assuming this partnership with McLaren does come to fruition, I suppose they may put Stoffel Vandoorne in the car for a year if Alonso and Button remain at McLaren next year. I doubt there's much point in him staying in GP2 after 2015, especially as he'll most likely win the championship.

Manor are the new Minardi. I'm starting to like them more and more, let's hope they will always soldier on unsuccessfully (or there would be no more Reject teamsf or us to support )

Waris wrote:Manor are the new Minardi. I'm starting to like them more and more, let's hope they will always soldier on unsuccessfully (or there would be no more Reject teamsf or us to support )

Haas are already (pretty much) a reject team, and I think it will take a while for them to unrejectify themselves, so in case Manor go, Haas have a chance to take up the mantle

FullMetalJack wrote:Assuming this partnership with McLaren does come to fruition, I suppose they may put Stoffel Vandoorne in the car for a year if Alonso and Button remain at McLaren next year.

That should be a good idea, because it would be a no pressure environment for Vandoorne to get the grips. In fact, they should get Magnussen in too and have effectively a B team status to McLaren.

Simtek wrote:

Waris wrote:Manor are the new Minardi. I'm starting to like them more and more, let's hope they will always soldier on unsuccessfully (or there would be no more Reject teamsf or us to support )

Haas are already (pretty much) a reject team, and I think it will take a while for them to unrejectify themselves, so in case Manor go, Haas have a chance to take up the mantle

Also, Haas has the potential to not only be Rejectful but to look really silly in the process (it's different). Not USF1 silly, but I don't expect their entry to be low-key and even if they wanted it to be the media, yee haw, won't let it.

AndreaModa wrote:

DanielPT wrote:Yes, but with the 2015 car, which they will hopefully introduce sooner rather than later (or next year) the 2015 Ferrari engine is expected to be used.

Is it? Where have you read that? I've been wondering the same thing myself but haven't seen anything to confirm they'd switch to 2015 engines.

I highly doubt we'll see a revised 2015 chassis this year from Manor now though. They know they can easily make 107% in the MR03B and get it to the finish as well. Why spend money on a car that will achieve little extra when they can just collect the dollar this year and splurge it all on a 2016 design?

Here and in Autosport it says that the 2015 car will run the current engine with current being interpreted by me as "this year" as they next talk about getting penalties for having to switch engines with the new car introduction. Regardless, its debut this year now depends on the decision from the new staff which includes Bob Bell. But given they could use 2015 Ferrari engines, I say a boost in performance is to be expected.

MOAR SPONSORSHIPS!

https://twitter.com/ManorF1Team/status/ ... 6595600385

AdrianBelmonte_ wrote:MOAR SPONSORSHIPS!

https://twitter.com/ManorF1Team/status/ ... 6595600385

Good grief, who would have thought it! Not sure about the extra splash of blue but hey if it means more dollar then so be it. The change of colour rather reminds me of when Minardi or any of the other back of the grid teams through F1's history signed a new sponsor that prompted a random livery change that wasn't in any way in keeping with the previous livery!

AndreaModa wrote:

AdrianBelmonte_ wrote:MOAR SPONSORSHIPS!

https://twitter.com/ManorF1Team/status/ ... 6595600385

Good grief, who would have thought it! Not sure about the extra splash of blue but hey if it means more dollar then so be it. The change of colour rather reminds me of when Minardi or any of the other back of the grid teams through F1's history signed a new sponsor that prompted a random livery change that wasn't in any way in keeping with the previous livery!

I do wonder if they might have been better off changing the whole of the secondary colour from white to blue, so the sidepods blended into the nose section. Still, seeing the team progressively pick up more and more sponsors is certainly a positive sign, and hopefully augers well for the future of the team.

Thinking further on it, I would love to know just how much Flex Box paid for that sidepod coverage, compared to say, McLaren's rate card for the same area. Must be so much less to sponsor a team like Manor than McLaren.

This is how you respect your team members.
Manor gives it all, you just can't dislike these chaps!

AndreaModa wrote:Thinking further on it, I would love to know just how much Flex Box paid for that sidepod coverage, compared to say, McLaren's rate card for the same area. Must be so much less to sponsor a team like Manor than McLaren.

Not to mention that since McLaren has been retiring so early, you get to see more of Manor than McLaren thorough the rest of race!

Shizuka wrote:

This is how you respect your team members.
Manor gives it all, you just can't dislike these chaps!

It's a nice little touch by the team, and it does seem that they are gradually gaining more support from the fans now too.

On another note, it was being pointed out that, whilst the livery has caught the most attention, it does seem that the team have also been bringing a few upgrades too - a modified sidepod deflector and modifications to the rear section of the floor - to compliment the new livery. The fact that the team is able to bring new upgrades to the car is just as good news as the new livery.

AndreaModa wrote:Thus the last privateer team to enter and then actually survive for five years in F1 is Sauber, which is quite a shocking statistic in my mind.

No, it is not Sauber, I'm afraid. They had the words "concept by Mercedes Benz" on their airbox in their first year, running the Ilmor-Mercedes engine, and had been the Mercedes works team in sportscars (Group C) before.

I'd say you'd have to go back to 1991 when Eddie Jordan's team entered, which is now known as Force 1ndia.

I'm glad they got a new sponsor, but it's really annoying that they kept the wing endplates black, it clashes horrifically with the dark blue imo. I hope that when they get the new car (which according to them should be at the Belgian Grand Prix), they do a bit of thinking and change all the black to blue.

Waris wrote:I'm glad they got a new sponsor, but it's really annoying that they kept the wing endplates black, it clashes horrifically with the dark blue imo. I hope that when they get the new car (which according to them should be at the Belgian Grand Prix), they do a bit of thinking and change all the black to blue.

I might be mistaken, but didn't Manor say that they are now aborting their plans for introducing their 2015 car this season and are instead working on their 2016 spec car instead, which will presumably be an evolution of their 2015 car?

mario wrote:

Waris wrote:I'm glad they got a new sponsor, but it's really annoying that they kept the wing endplates black, it clashes horrifically with the dark blue imo. I hope that when they get the new car (which according to them should be at the Belgian Grand Prix), they do a bit of thinking and change all the black to blue.

I might be mistaken, but didn't Manor say that they are now aborting their plans for introducing their 2015 car this season and are instead working on their 2016 spec car instead, which will presumably be an evolution of their 2015 car?

That seems to be correct, as far as I'm aware. Manor did say around Canada that they were going to decide over the following weeks whether or not they were going to introduce their 2015 car at Spa or focus on next year instead. It was suggested that they would abandon that plan due to the fact that they are comfortably within the 107% time in qualifying.

Yannick wrote:

AndreaModa wrote:Thus the last privateer team to enter and then actually survive for five years in F1 is Sauber, which is quite a shocking statistic in my mind.

No, it is not Sauber, I'm afraid. They had the words "concept by Mercedes Benz" on their airbox in their first year, running the Ilmor-Mercedes engine, and had been the Mercedes works team in sportscars (Group C) before.

I'd say you'd have to go back to 1991 when Eddie Jordan's team entered, which is now known as Force 1ndia.

But they weren't owned by Mercedes were they? Thus they were a privateer team. But either way, we're talking early 90s for the last privateer team which is sad.

AndreaModa wrote:

Yannick wrote:

AndreaModa wrote:Thus the last privateer team to enter and then actually survive for five years in F1 is Sauber, which is quite a shocking statistic in my mind.

No, it is not Sauber, I'm afraid. They had the words "concept by Mercedes Benz" on their airbox in their first year, running the Ilmor-Mercedes engine, and had been the Mercedes works team in sportscars (Group C) before.

I'd say you'd have to go back to 1991 when Eddie Jordan's team entered, which is now known as Force 1ndia.

But they weren't owned by Mercedes were they? Thus they were a privateer team. But either way, we're talking early 90s for the last privateer team which is sad.

Indeed. "Factory-backed" would be a more accurate term in this instance. Much the same as how Benetton and later Stewart were backed by Ford. Not necessarily a works team, but nevertheless had support from a manufacturer in a way similar to a works team.

EDIT: Thinking about this: Are they the same thing? Because I do remember Benetton being referred to as the "works" Ford team in the late '80s. Is a works team an entrant that is entered under the name of a manufacturer, like Renault or Mercedes? Or does it simply need to have significant financial backing and other support from a manufacturer, like Sauber-Mercedes in 1993-94? Perhaps this belongs in the Ponderbox thread...

EDIT: Thinking about this: Are they the same thing? Because I do remember Benetton being referred to as the "works" Ford team in the late '80s. Is a works team an entrant that is entered under the name of a manufacturer, like Renault or Mercedes? Or does it simply need to have significant financial backing and other support from a manufacturer, like Sauber-Mercedes in 1993-94? Perhaps this belongs in the Ponderbox thread...

I think it can, e.g. I imagine McLaren essentially became the Honda works team in the late 80s and early 90s. But were an independent entity despite probably a lot of their budget coming from Honda, likewise I think Williams were seen as the Renault works team at the same time, whereas its quite clear Ferrari have always been a manufacturer entry. However these may just be Partnerships rather then a merger of the two as take 1991 for example you had Williams (Renault), McLaren (Honda), Ferrari, Benetton (Ford), Footwork (Porsche), Brabham (Yamaha) and Modena (Lamborghini, this could probably be disputed) which I feel can be argued as each being a respective works team due to the heavy manufacturer support in the team's budget. Heck I think Mercedes were testing the waters a bit through Ilmor engines being in the Leyton House team and the placing of Wendlinger late on in that season.