Grand Prix Rejects

eurobrun wrote:This might not be unpopular on the wider internet but is definitely is here.

Marussia has much more potential than HRT and also has a lot more chance of being competitive one day

I think they both have potential, but Marussia will probably get there faster.

eurobrun wrote:This might not be unpopular on the wider internet but is definitely is here.

Marussia has much more potential than HRT and also has a lot more chance of being competitive one day

After Marussia's showing in Singapore, I'm inclined to agree with this.

darkapprentice77 wrote:Everyone overreacted to Crashgate.

I think I put earlier in this thread that I felt sorry for NPJ and how I had been in a similar situation once at work, and how it was very tempting to do the easy thing rather than the right thing.

Let's imagine a scenario for a moment, when the idea of a deliberate crash is put to him in a meeting and he refuses to do it. Flavio would have sacked him, and NPJ would not have had any evidence that the team asked him to do it because without the telemetry and the radio comms, the only other evidence was this conversation which Flav denied ever having, and Symonds only admitted to when the technical evidence was irrefutable. At least by going through with the plan he was able to expose what was going on. If he hadn't done it no-one would have believed him (and nobody did for a while until the true evidence surfaced).

LellaLombardi wrote:

darkapprentice77 wrote:Everyone overreacted to Crashgate.

I think I put earlier in this thread that I felt sorry for NPJ and how I had been in a similar situation once at work, and how it was very tempting to do the easy thing rather than the right thing.

Let's imagine a scenario for a moment, when the idea of a deliberate crash is put to him in a meeting and he refuses to do it. Flavio would have sacked him, and NPJ would not have had any evidence that the team asked him to do it because without the telemetry and the radio comms, the only other evidence was this conversation which Flav denied ever having, and Symonds only admitted to when the technical evidence was irrefutable. At least by going through with the plan he was able to expose what was going on. If he hadn't done it no-one would have believed him (and nobody did for a while until the true evidence surfaced).

So you're basically saying Nelson Piquet Jr. went ahead collaborating with the Crashgate plan because he wanted it to be exposed to everyone rather than as a coward measure to avoid losing his job...

Phoenix wrote:

LellaLombardi wrote:

darkapprentice77 wrote:Everyone overreacted to Crashgate.

I think I put earlier in this thread that I felt sorry for NPJ and how I had been in a similar situation once at work, and how it was very tempting to do the easy thing rather than the right thing.

Let's imagine a scenario for a moment, when the idea of a deliberate crash is put to him in a meeting and he refuses to do it. Flavio would have sacked him, and NPJ would not have had any evidence that the team asked him to do it because without the telemetry and the radio comms, the only other evidence was this conversation which Flav denied ever having, and Symonds only admitted to when the technical evidence was irrefutable. At least by going through with the plan he was able to expose what was going on. If he hadn't done it no-one would have believed him (and nobody did for a while until the true evidence surfaced).

So you're basically saying Nelson Piquet Jr. went ahead collaborating with the Crashgate plan because he wanted it to be exposed to everyone rather than as a coward measure to avoid losing his job...

I don't think it was even that, it was just Piquet getting back at Flav for sacking him.

Phoenix wrote:

LellaLombardi wrote:

darkapprentice77 wrote:Everyone overreacted to Crashgate.

I think I put earlier in this thread that I felt sorry for NPJ and how I had been in a similar situation once at work, and how it was very tempting to do the easy thing rather than the right thing.

Let's imagine a scenario for a moment, when the idea of a deliberate crash is put to him in a meeting and he refuses to do it. Flavio would have sacked him, and NPJ would not have had any evidence that the team asked him to do it because without the telemetry and the radio comms, the only other evidence was this conversation which Flav denied ever having, and Symonds only admitted to when the technical evidence was irrefutable. At least by going through with the plan he was able to expose what was going on. If he hadn't done it no-one would have believed him (and nobody did for a while until the true evidence surfaced).

So you're basically saying Nelson Piquet Jr. went ahead collaborating with the Crashgate plan because he wanted it to be exposed to everyone rather than as a coward measure to avoid losing his job...

When people's jobs are on the line - and especially something like F1 that you've worked your whole life for - then they will do anything to hang on to it. Who knows what went through his head. What would you have done? When this was happening to me at work, I resigned but had another job offer on the table. NPJ wasn't driving well enough for that (you could argue - unconvincingly - that his poor performance was in part due to a lack of support) and he knew the only way was down.

It didn't work for NPJ because they sacked him later anyway. I don't think it was wrong of him to blow the whistle after how he was treated by Renault, he had nothing left to lose by doing that. Hell if I was screwed over by my employer like that I'd want everyone to know about it.

LellaLombardi wrote:

Phoenix wrote:
So you're basically saying Nelson Piquet Jr. went ahead collaborating with the Crashgate plan because he wanted it to be exposed to everyone rather than as a coward measure to avoid losing his job...

When people's jobs are on the line - and especially something like F1 that you've worked your whole life for - then they will do anything to hang on to it. Who knows what went through his head. What would you have done? When this was happening to me at work, I resigned but had another job offer on the table. NPJ wasn't driving well enough for that (you could argue - unconvincingly - that his poor performance was in part due to a lack of support) and he knew the only way was down.

It didn't work for NPJ because they sacked him later anyway. I don't think it was wrong of him to blow the whistle after how he was treated by Renault, he had nothing left to lose by doing that. Hell if I was screwed over by my employer like that I'd want everyone to know about it.

The worst part about Nelsinho confessing was that he did that purely by revenge. That, while understandable, is a very petty attitude considering his dismissal was justificated considering his poor performances.

John Bintcliffe was better than Frank Biela and Yvan Muller.

I'll be impressed if anyone knows what the bathplug I'm talking about.

darkapprentice77 wrote:John Bintcliffe was better than Frank Biela and Yvan Muller.

I'll be impressed if anyone knows what the bathplug I'm talking about.

Audi in the BTCC?

pasta_maldonado wrote:

darkapprentice77 wrote:John Bintcliffe was better than Frank Biela and Yvan Muller.

I'll be impressed if anyone knows what the bathplug I'm talking about.

Audi in the BTCC?

Yep.

darkapprentice77 wrote:John Bintcliffe was better than Frank Biela and Yvan Muller.

I'll be impressed if anyone knows what the bathplug I'm talking about.

You can't be serious.

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:

darkapprentice77 wrote:John Bintcliffe was better than Frank Biela and Yvan Muller.

I'll be impressed if anyone knows what the bathplug I'm talking about.

You can't be serious.

Thanks, I needed a good laugh. Now on the cubject of the BTCC...

Kieth O'dor had a lot of potential but he wasted it by staying with Nissan. Sadly it may of also cost him his life.

Phoenix wrote:

LellaLombardi wrote:

Phoenix wrote:
So you're basically saying Nelson Piquet Jr. went ahead collaborating with the Crashgate plan because he wanted it to be exposed to everyone rather than as a coward measure to avoid losing his job...

When people's jobs are on the line - and especially something like F1 that you've worked your whole life for - then they will do anything to hang on to it. Who knows what went through his head. What would you have done? When this was happening to me at work, I resigned but had another job offer on the table. NPJ wasn't driving well enough for that (you could argue - unconvincingly - that his poor performance was in part due to a lack of support) and he knew the only way was down.

It didn't work for NPJ because they sacked him later anyway. I don't think it was wrong of him to blow the whistle after how he was treated by Renault, he had nothing left to lose by doing that. Hell if I was screwed over by my employer like that I'd want everyone to know about it.

The worst part about Nelsinho confessing was that he did that purely by revenge. That, while understandable, is a very petty attitude considering his dismissal was justificated considering his poor performances.

And that is exactly why I have no sympathy for him, especially when he had a history of arrogance as well. And the plan only worked in the end thanks to Nico's stop-go penalty and DC holding up the rest of the field at well over a second a lap after the safety car came in anyway.

pasta_maldonado wrote:

darkapprentice77 wrote:John Bintcliffe was better than Frank Biela and Yvan Muller.
I'll be impressed if anyone knows what the bathplug I'm talking about.

Audi in the BTCC?

I knew that. I was watching. I wonder what happened to him?

It's cool that Ferrari doesn't have real logic naming their cars.

F1 is too sterile at the moment.

First off, there's too many drivers in the field lacking any character at all. Second, the FIA is hell bent on banning anything that is innovative and might give someone an advantage. It is not only limited to car development but setups as well (strictly limited gear ratios and engine maps, penalties for gearbox and engine changes). The amount of tyres is all too limited and being forced to use the same set of tyres used in Q3 to start the race is stupid and only leads to the common occurence of teams first forcing their way into Q3 and then just sitting out from that session. And before you argue that the car development and setups have always been limited in some way (such as ride height), they've been done from a safety point of view. But these days the reason given is cost cutting, yet at the same time there's a lot of flyaway races in a nonsensical and too long calendar which includes travelling back and forth across the globe while all of the teams are still based in Europe. The travel costs alone negate most of the potential savings made from limiting car development. Add to that the fact that a lot of the newly designed circuits are crap and only a couple of them have consistently provided us with good racing. And finally, if it wasn't for ridiculously artificial things like KERS, DRS and an extremely limited supply of super-degrading tyres, we would have little overtaking at all as the technical limitations have made the cars extremely dependent on clean air so it is nigh-impossible to overtake without the help of the aforementioned devices/factors.

And the penalties? I wouldn't be surprised if Vergne would have to suffer a 5-place grid penalty in the next race if his gearbox is found out to have been damaged in the collision with Schumi, which was not his fault in the slightest. Has there been any race this season at all where nobody has suffered from a grid penalty due to "illegal" gearbox changes? Again another feature added in the name of cost-cutting. For on-track incidents, there should be far more penalties during the race (drive-throughs or stop-and-gos) than after them (which is again usually a grid penalty, time penalties being rarer). Blocking in qualifying seems to be among the worst offences imaginable and is very easily punished for, yet I doubt many of those maneuvres are made on purpose. The stewards are immensely inconsistent as well - something that simply can not be described as anything other than a pure racing incident might get severely punished for, but at the same time some dangerous or even illegal moves might not even be investigated at all. A lot of penalties are probably issued because the abundant tarmac run-offs allow the drivers to easily go wide or cut the track without suffering any immediate negative effect (dirty tyres in the least cases, retirement at worst) - which in itself is another factor contributing to the lack of overtakes and on-track action.

I probably got some facts completely wrong but in the end I just had to let off some steam. It might be that I'll stop actively following F1 soon (again)...

I agree. Many things in modern Formula one, especially the new rules introdced since 2006 are annoying me. It has simply become too artificial. These stupid tyre rules, resulting in a Q3 where sometimes only 6 cars are driving, should be changed. Also, on some tracks, DRS has nearly the same effect as waving a blue flag, except that it looks better. I think new rules should be introduced for security reasons, but not for producing an artificial show.

About cost cutting: As we see, teams who have 200 million dollars will always find a way to spend them. For example, after testing was banned, the top teams spent millions on better simulators, reduce wind tunnel time and they spend money on CFD. That's why these cost cutting attemts have failed.

Nuppiz wrote:First off, there's too many drivers in the field lacking any character at all.

This is one thing that really gets on my nerves - people saying that today's drivers lack character. Not everybody in F1 is going to be super interesting because, holy crap, not everybody in the world is super interesting! It's almost like they're actual people and not, you know, actors playing a part! Who knew! And besides, there are plenty of distinguishable personalities on the grid - Jenson Button, Lewis Hamilton, Sebastian Vettel, Mark Webber, Fernando Alonso, Kimi Raikkonen, Michael Schumacher, Pastor Maldonado... need I go on? If anything, I think there are more distinguishable people on the grid now than most other periods in F1.

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:

Nuppiz wrote:First off, there's too many drivers in the field lacking any character at all.

This is one thing that really gets on my nerves - people saying that today's drivers lack character. Not everybody in F1 is going to be super interesting because, holy crap, not everybody in the world is super interesting! It's almost like they're actual people and not, you know, actors playing a part! Who knew! And besides, there are plenty of distinguishable personalities on the grid - Jenson Button, Lewis Hamilton, Sebastian Vettel, Mark Webber, Fernando Alonso, Kimi Raikkonen, Michael Schumacher, Pastor Maldonado... need I go on? If anything, I think there are more distinguishable people on the grid now than most other periods in F1.

I agree, whilst drivers have to do all the PR rubbish and spout the corporate talk for press releases, away from that they are very individual, but not over-the-top. I'd hate it if we had a bunch of fake personalities played by actors to just to make things more interesting, it would really cheapen F1 as a whole. At the moment, the drivers have their own personalities, and there are a few that are a bit bland, but not enough to say the grid as a whole is sterile and boring.

I think the problem might lie in the people fluttering around the drivers, not in the drivers themselves.

I really want the A1 Ring to come back.

Wallio wrote:I really want the Osterreichring to come back.

Fixed

AndreaModa wrote:

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:

Nuppiz wrote:First off, there's too many drivers in the field lacking any character at all.

This is one thing that really gets on my nerves - people saying that today's drivers lack character. Not everybody in F1 is going to be super interesting because, holy crap, not everybody in the world is super interesting! It's almost like they're actual people and not, you know, actors playing a part! Who knew! And besides, there are plenty of distinguishable personalities on the grid - Jenson Button, Lewis Hamilton, Sebastian Vettel, Mark Webber, Fernando Alonso, Kimi Raikkonen, Michael Schumacher, Pastor Maldonado... need I go on? If anything, I think there are more distinguishable people on the grid now than most other periods in F1.

I agree, whilst drivers have to do all the PR rubbish and spout the corporate talk for press releases, away from that they are very individual, but not over-the-top. I'd hate it if we had a bunch of fake personalities played by actors to just to make things more interesting, it would really cheapen F1 as a whole. At the moment, the drivers have their own personalities, and there are a few that are a bit bland, but not enough to say the grid as a whole is sterile and boring.

Yep. Spot on, each one gives a different personality. Raikkonen looks like he wants to answer everything in a sarcastic manner, Jenson Butoon always wants to have a joke (if things are going well), Schumacher has become more relaxed and chatty, Webber and Ricciardo have that Aussie wit, Vettel likes a giggle now and again, Grosjean always smiles, Maldonado makes you laugh...

At least this is what I've found, a majority of the drivers seem a bit more 'chilled' these days. Sure, you get the odd tantrum, but overall, its more relaxed. And that gives a good vibe.

pasta_maldonado wrote:

Wallio wrote:I really want the Osterreichring to come back.

Fixed

Nah, the A1-Ring was better.

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:

pasta_maldonado wrote:

Wallio wrote:I really want the Osterreichring to come back.

Fixed

Nah, the A1-Ring was better.

Agreed. every year there was so much action and start-line pile-up's.

Wallio wrote:I really want the A1 Ring to come back.

Agreed. High speed circuit, lots of elevation change, lots of on-track action, and amazing scenery. A1 Ring had it all.

I think Kobayashi is absolutely hilarious without even trying. And in any case, drivers who try to be non-conformist and not toeing the sponsor line come over as a bit of a dick - just look at Jacques Villeneuve

I think Lewis Hamilton is very torn on this and isn't very sure of who he is. One minute he's sounding completely media trained and restrained, the next his emotions have got the better of him and he's said or done something stupid. And one minute he says he's committed to winning, and then he's off with his celebrity friends and doing media things again. I was more forgiving of this when he was younger but he needs to sort himself out now if he is going to win another title.

Schumi nowadays reminds me of how he was between 1991 and 1993, when he was up and coming and had everything going for him. That changed during 1994 for obvious reasons, and was greatly overplayed by the British media. He's had enough life experience now to know how to react to things and I guess is enjoying himself more too.

The one I am really unsure about is Raikkonen. On the one hand it is very admirable that he is focused more on his driving than his media work. But I dislike people who appear to have no enthusiasm for what they are doing, and that is how he comes across to me.

eurobrun wrote:Marussia has much more potential than HRT and also has a lot more chance of being competitive one day

I will counter with a daring opinion of my own: Virgin/Marussia are the most pathetic team this side of Andrea Moda.

Everything about them is ridiculous in a way, beginning with the absolute random selection of Manor at the new teams' selection (but that topic has been done to death, so let's leave it at that). Manor never, for a single second, appeared to have the funding for a F1 operation. Then comes Benson, trying to get cheap exposure like he did with Brawn only to notice that F1 actually doesn't work that way. So he went "Bathplug this" and just left, giving the team to Marussia. Marussia, a car manufacturer nobody has ever heard of before, takes over the F1 team and the company's investment from the outside looks as healthy as a Putin-opposed journalist. Then you have Timo Glock who at times seems more concerned with coming up with clever remarks at his obligatory end-of-Q1 interview with RTL than actually doing anything. Together with that goes the Super Happy Fun Family Second Driver Wheel Of Fortune, always bringing someone new in only to burn them up like joints on 4/20. And now of course add Pat Symonds' delusions of grandeur thinking he can design virtually three cars at once, a task that challenges even the top teams who have more and better staff available than he does. It's all a symphony of jokes, sadly not the funny type. To me personally the other new teams are more worthwhile and better suited for now and the future: Caterham for professionalism that (so far) has gone unrewarded and HRT for the underdog story which slowly turns into a respectable racing outfit.

That also leads me to my second (in parts) unpopular opinion: I pray to HWNSNBM that another chaotic race allows either Caterham or HRT to take 10th place from Marussia, at least then that prize money won't have such a high risk of ending up with Russian strippers.

Klon wrote:only to burn them up like joints on 4/20.

That is obvoiusly how you came to this opinion

Klon wrote:Then comes Branson, trying to get cheap exposure like he did with Brawn only to notice that F1 actually doesn't work that way. So he went "Bathplug this" and just left, giving the team to Marussia.

Not actually true my German friend, Branson was with the team in a Marussia top at the Italian Grand Prix. He's scaled back Virgin's involvement with the team, but he's by no means left the building, Virgin are still an important partner for them.

And in a similar vein to Force India, the only Russian thing about Marussia is the owners, and the fact you can get the team's website in Russian. They have no Russian sponsors or partners (except the parent company of course) and currently no Russian drivers on their books either. All the team's operations are in Banbury, and when you look at this video of Marussia's computing power, you can't really say they're not professional. Remember, they made the move to adequately-sized facilities a year before Caterham or HRT did.

Valteri Bottas is overrated.

TheBigJ wrote:Valteri Bottas is overrated.

Post of the year right there,I agree completely

eurobrun wrote:

TheBigJ wrote:Valteri Bottas is overrated.

Post of the year right there,I agree completely

Post acknowledging Post of the year of the year right there,I agree completely

darkapprentice77 wrote:

eurobrun wrote:

TheBigJ wrote:Valteri Bottas is overrated.

Post of the year right there,I agree completely

Post acknowledging Post of the year of the year right there,I agree completely

Post conceding post acknowledging Post of the year of the year of the year right there, I agr... Too much?

Probably VERY unpopular here, but Narain et al from Indy 2005 shoulf get "You Lucky Basterd!" status, and get put in the same tier as Michael Andretti. (harsh I admit)

If Catheram doesn't snatch 10th in the WCC back this year, they will be the worst team next year fiscally (due to their huge, and by their own admission, failed, investment this year.)

Wallio wrote:Probably VERY unpopular here, but Narain et al from Indy 2005 shoulf get "You Lucky Basterd!" status, and get put in the same tier as Michael Andretti. (harsh I admit)

I completely agree.

Wallio wrote:Probably VERY unpopular here, but Narain et al from Indy 2005 shoulf get "You Lucky Basterd!" status, and get put in the same tier as Michael Andretti. (harsh I admit)

I agree with you, a driver who gets only bad cars, and was clearly outperformed by all his teammates, and escapes being a reject in a race were only six cars started, would definitely deserve this award.

I too concur, at least Michael Andretti got his 3rd place on a full grid and coming from the back of the pack.

The worst thing is if you had put a waste of space like Barichello in the Williams he would've been amongst the Championship contenders and certainly ahead of Pay-Checo Telmex Perez. The Williams lineup is probably the most utterly incapable set of drivers made to look mediocrely acceptable (or in the case of Senna, just standard rejectfulness) by a great piece of machinery since the Villeneuve-Frentzen days.

Maldonado is flattering the Williams car with his one lap speed, and Senna isn't doing that bad either.

Adrian Quaife-Hobbs is way overrated and there's no reason why anyone would sign him to F1.

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have wanted to say those for a long time..^^