Grand Prix Rejects

CarlosFerreira wrote:

Phoenix wrote:PS: I'm glad you're back here along with your vintage Monteiro avatar

You know time has passed you by when Tiago Monteiro's F1 career has become a vintage item...

he got the 3rd at indy in 2005 though

there were only 6 cars in the race though

Regarding drivers having to think they're the best, I recall someone (I can never remember if it was Mansell or Fangio) saying that a driver must always strive to be the best, but never believe that he is, or he'll either stop trying to improve or become a giant cock about it.

tommykl wrote:Regarding drivers having to think they're the best, I recall someone (I can never remember if it was Mansell or Fangio) saying that a driver must always strive to be the best, but never believe that he is, or he'll either stop trying to improve or become a giant cock about it.

It was indeed Fangio who said that. Seriously, can you imagine Mansell making such an statement?

CarlosFerreira wrote:

Phoenix wrote:PS: I'm glad you're back here along with your vintage Monteiro avatar

You know time has passed you by when Tiago Monteiro's F1 career has become a vintage item...

It's the avatar itself, it's iconic.

Phoenix wrote:

tommykl wrote:Regarding drivers having to think they're the best, I recall someone (I can never remember if it was Mansell or Fangio) saying that a driver must always strive to be the best, but never believe that he is, or he'll either stop trying to improve or become a giant cock about it.

It was indeed Fangio who said that. Seriously, can you imagine Mansell making such an statement?

Maybe he did, but the entire world fell asleep in the middle of it, and nobody remembers...

Backmarker wrote:

DanielPT wrote:Not that they are looking good as he came into F1 as a Mercedes future driver and when a seat became vacant over there they preferred to go and snatch Hamilton from McLaren instead of taking the risk on Di Resta. That can't be good no matter the disproportionate size of the ego.

Who in their right mind would choose Paul di Resta if they thought they had a chance to get Lewis Hamilton? Even Paul di Resta wouldn't choose Paul di Resta over Hamilton. If he had missed out against Pastor Maldonado or Vitaly Petrov then he would have good reason to be aggrieved. Though I do wonder if he's jealous that Hulkenberg has managed to get a seat at Sauber over him?

Maybe there is a little bit of envy in Di Resta's comments, though time will tell whether Hulkenberg's move to Sauber proves to be a step up or just a lateral move (there is no guarantee that Sauber will necessarily be the stronger team as, like in 2011, Sauber's form trailed off compared to Force India and Williams towards the end of the year).

Anyway, from the point of view of Mercedes, the decision makes sense - Hamilton, although he might be somewhat difficult to deal with at times, also has considerably more experience than Di Resta and did effectively spearhead the team when paired up with Kovalainen at McLaren. Add to that Hamilton's marketing potential - which has the opportunity to offset his wage bill nicely - and it makes more sense for the longer term prospects of the team to secure Hamilton's services over Di Resta, even if they had seemingly been preparing the way for the latter driver.

Phoenix wrote:

tommykl wrote:Regarding drivers having to think they're the best, I recall someone (I can never remember if it was Mansell or Fangio) saying that a driver must always strive to be the best, but never believe that he is, or he'll either stop trying to improve or become a giant cock about it.

It was indeed Fangio who said that. Seriously, can you imagine Mansell making such an statement?

That does point out something of a generational split, though. That sort of comment would sound strange if it came from most of the drivers in the top teams of Mansell's era - could you equally imagine a figure like Senna or Piquet Sr. saying those words?

Wildly optimistic fighting talk from Perez:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104807

Faustus wrote:Wildly optimistic fighting talk from Perez:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104807

It's good to be confident but he should rather target a top 5-6 position in the driver's championship. After he signed he has shown his immature side IMO.

In a way it kind of reminds me about when Raikkonen signed for McLaren, his form trailed off also a bit towards the end of the season, although that had probably mostly to do with Sauber's form in general and first season fatigue I guess.

The difference between Raikkonen and Perez? Well, Raikkonen didn't make a fuss about himself.

Well, if he isn't going for a world title straight-away, he'd prove Ferrari right in their claims that he isn't ready for the big leauges and if there is one thing you do not want to do with your career is agreeing with a top team saying you are not yet good enough for a top team.

Speaking of which, maybe Ferrari are not so stupid after all in rejecting the Mexican. I mean if they had sacked Massa and put Perez in his place, he would find himself inevitably overshadowed by Fernando Alonso (a risk nowhere near as high at McLaren since his team mate there is nothing more than a fraud hopefully to be exposed soon). Even if Alonso were to retire soon, you do not get being overshadowed out of your head that easily. Just ask Stefan Wessels and Michael Rensing - oh my HWNSNBM, I just used a soccer analogy. Could somebody please kill me?

Either way, maybe Ferrari will swipe in big time when Alonso is done with F1 - if Perez sorts his rookie issues with top-class cars at McLaren he could really become a world championship class driver and when Ferrari over him a big contract he most certainly will be able to overlook having being rejected in 2012. The subtile undertones in this driver change is interesting.

Klon wrote: (a risk nowhere near as high at McLaren since his team mate there is nothing more than a fraud hopefully to be exposed soon)

How do you explain his team-mate being able to fight one of the fastest drivers of this generation? Also, don't you think that, if he was a fraud, 12 years were more than enough to expose him?

DanielPT wrote:

Klon wrote: (a risk nowhere near as high at McLaren since his team mate there is nothing more than a fraud hopefully to be exposed soon)

How do you explain his team-mate being able to fight one of the fastest drivers of this generation? Also, don't you think that, if he was a fraud, 12 years were more than enough to expose him?

I agree with this. Button is not the fastest driver over a lap out there, but he's shown himself more than capable of winning races and being at the sharp end. I am on the record saying Lewis was going to crush him form 2010 onwards, and I have been proven wrong. To be honest, I've become a bit of a Buttonite after 2011.

Klon is self-confessedly blinkered when it comes to Button - and Barrichello for that matter - so I find it best to chuckle silently to oneself at anything he says about them and say nothing in reply.

Warren Hughes wrote:Klon is self-confessedly blinkered when it comes to Button - and Barrichello for that matter - so I find it best to chuckle silently to oneself at anything he says about them and say nothing in reply.

I know, but in order to grab more chuckles, I use to reply and then sit back watch his fightback. It makes me smile. Which by the way, I forgot to put on my reply. That friendly smile!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104815

Norbert Haug will back down from Mercedes Motorsport at the end of the year. He says it was influenced by recent results or lack of. Will this improve Mercedes or might mean the end of their F1 venture?

I believe it is just a corporational punishment for Haug.
They shouldn't quit just before the regulation changes in 2014, but remember what Honda did in 2008, so history might repeat itself again AT THE SAME TEAM, nonetheless!

DanielPT wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104815

Norbert Haug will back down from Mercedes Motorsport at the end of the year. He says it was influenced by recent results or lack of. Will this improve Mercedes or might mean the end of their F1 venture?

I highly doubt that Mercedes will pull out, given the amount that they have spent to lure Hamilton away from McLaren.

takagi_for_the_win wrote:

DanielPT wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104815

Norbert Haug will back down from Mercedes Motorsport at the end of the year. He says it was influenced by recent results or lack of. Will this improve Mercedes or might mean the end of their F1 venture?

I highly doubt that Mercedes will pull out, given the amount that they have spent to lure Hamilton away from McLaren.

Not now, but the end in a medium run if the results don't come up.

DanielPT wrote:

takagi_for_the_win wrote:

DanielPT wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104815

Norbert Haug will back down from Mercedes Motorsport at the end of the year. He says it was influenced by recent results or lack of. Will this improve Mercedes or might mean the end of their F1 venture?

I highly doubt that Mercedes will pull out, given the amount that they have spent to lure Hamilton away from McLaren.

Not now, but the end in a medium run if the results don't come up.

I wonder if this doesn't have more to do with being beaten by BMW in the DTM. It has to have been humiliating.

DanielPT wrote:How do you explain his team-mate being able to fight one of the fastest drivers of this generation? Also, don't you think that, if he was a fraud, 12 years were more than enough to expose him?

Well, he was exposed alright - he's a two times Reject Of The Year for HWNSNBM's sake - but sadly everyone forgot about that.

Klon wrote:

DanielPT wrote:How do you explain his team-mate being able to fight one of the fastest drivers of this generation? Also, don't you think that, if he was a fraud, 12 years were more than enough to expose him?

Well, he was exposed alright - he's a two times Reject Of The Year for HWNSNBM's sake - but sadly everyone forgot about that.

He is, of course. But that is also due to the huge expectations many had of him. Now he is also world Champion! And if it wasn't for him, you would be calling Sebastian Vettel a 4 time world champion.

DanielPT wrote:He is, of course. But that is also due to the huge expectations many had of him. Now he is also world Champion! And if it wasn't for him, you would be calling Sebastian Vettel a 4 time world champion.

That is around 5,279 times (rough estimate) better than calling Jenson Button a one-time world champion.

DanielPT wrote:

Klon wrote:

DanielPT wrote:How do you explain his team-mate being able to fight one of the fastest drivers of this generation? Also, don't you think that, if he was a fraud, 12 years were more than enough to expose him?

Well, he was exposed alright - he's a two times Reject Of The Year for HWNSNBM's sake - but sadly everyone forgot about that.

He is, of course. But that is also due to the huge expectations many had of him. Now he is also world Champion! And if it wasn't for Brawn's double-diffuser, you would be calling Sebastian Vettel a 4 time world champion.

Fix'd.

Nuppiz wrote:

DanielPT wrote:He is, of course. But that is also due to the huge expectations many had of him. Now he is also world Champion! And if it wasn't for Brawn's double-diffuser, you would be calling Sebastian Vettel a 4 time world champion.

Fix'd.

That would be true if the other Brawn car (they were two), coincidently also using Brawn's double-diffuser, had finished second in the WDC...

Klon wrote:

DanielPT wrote:He is, of course. But that is also due to the huge expectations many had of him. Now he is also world Champion! And if it wasn't for him, you would be calling Sebastian Vettel a 4 time world champion.

That is around 5,279 times (rough estimate) better than calling Jenson Button a one-time world champion.

OBJECTION!

CarlosFerreira wrote:

Klon wrote:

DanielPT wrote:He is, of course. But that is also due to the huge expectations many had of him. Now he is also world Champion! And if it wasn't for him, you would be calling Sebastian Vettel a 4 time world champion.

That is around 5,279 times (rough estimate) better than calling Jenson Button a one-time world champion.

OBJECTION!

Grounds?

LionZoo wrote:

CarlosFerreira wrote:

Klon wrote:That is around 5,279 times (rough estimate) better than calling Jenson Button a one-time world champion.

OBJECTION!

Grounds?

I am vaguely annoyed by Vettel.

CarlosFerreira wrote:
I am vaguely annoyed by Vettel.

I can say more. I can say that I am vaguely annoyed by Vettel having been in what is clearly the best car for 3 and a half years and many people already think that he is one of the GoAT. Although I must say that if instead of Vettel, Red Bull had another Mark Webber, they would have about 0 WDCs.

DanielPT wrote:

CarlosFerreira wrote:
I am vaguely annoyed by Vettel.

I can say more. I can say that I am vaguely annoyed by Vettel having been in what is clearly the best car for 3 and a half years and many people already think that he is one of the GoAT. Although I must say that if instead of Vettel, Red Bull had another Mark Webber, they would have about 0 WDCs.

Of course they were going to think this; if Michael Schumacher is considered as even one of the ten best drivers ever to race in F1, it's no surprise to Vettel being mentioned amongst the best as well.

DanielPT wrote:

CarlosFerreira wrote:
I am vaguely annoyed by Vettel.

I can say more. I can say that I am vaguely annoyed by Vettel having been in what is clearly the best car for 3 and a half years and many people already think that he is one of the GoAT. Although I must say that if instead of Vettel, Red Bull had another Mark Webber, they would have about 0 WDCs.

Vettel is deserving of his titles at the end of the day in my opinion, but he should not be labelled as a GoAT. Yet.

Oh come on if Vettel did not exist then Mark Webber would have won at least one world championship as his car would not have had as many "mechanical failures"...

pasta_maldonado wrote:Vettel is deserving of his titles at the end of the day in my opinion, but he should not be labelled as a GoAT. Yet.

Pictured above: Sebastian Vettel

Yes, I already used this goat joke but I'm bored.

And to avoid an entirely off-topic post: It seems that Jules Bianchi will get the Force India drive.

Meatwad wrote:And to avoid an entirely off-topic post: It seems that Jules Bianchi will get the Force India drive.

That rumour has been floating around for a little while, and the idea of Force India hiring Bianchi in return for a discounted drivetrain deal (given that Force India uses McLaren's transmission as well as the Mercedes engine and KERS unit) does seem plausible, particularly given the expected sharp jump in engine costs for 2014. Although I would expect it to be Sutil that gets the seat in the end, I do not entirely discount the possibility that he might be moved from the reserve role into Hulkenberg's former seat, perhaps with Ferrari also pressuring the team to take on somebody else from their Young Driver program as a reserve.

DanielPT wrote:

CarlosFerreira wrote:
I am vaguely annoyed by Vettel.

I can say more. I can say that I am vaguely annoyed by Vettel having been in what is clearly the best car for 3 and a half years and many people already think that he is one of the GoAT. Although I must say that if instead of Vettel, Red Bull had another Mark Webber, they would have about 0 WDCs.

I wouldn't even go as far as that. Vettel annoys me vaguely, but I can't even say why. A bit like Nick Heidfeld, or Felipe Massa.

Looks like the Italian press, unsurprisingly, have picked up on the suggestion that Force India are thinking of switching to Ferrari for 2014, with Bianchi moving into a stronger position on the back of that deal.
Connected with that rumour, there is another interesting suggestion that we might be seeing more changes in the engine picture for 2014 - it is being suggested that Toro Rosso will be ditching their Ferrari engine contract for 2014 and instead use Renault's turbo engine (and, presumably, the Red Bull KERS instead of the Magnetti Marelli system they use now).
If that is so, and the teams that already have Renault engine contracts roll those over in 2014, we're going to see half the field using Renault engines - that is going to put Renault in a very strong position when it comes to negotiating with the FIA over future engine regulations.

mario wrote:Looks like the Italian press, unsurprisingly, have picked up on the suggestion that Force India are thinking of switching to Ferrari for 2014, with Bianchi moving into a stronger position on the back of that deal.
Connected with that rumour, there is another interesting suggestion that we might be seeing more changes in the engine picture for 2014 - it is being suggested that Toro Rosso will be ditching their Ferrari engine contract for 2014 and instead use Renault's turbo engine (and, presumably, the Red Bull KERS instead of the Magnetti Marelli system they use now).
If that is so, and the teams that already have Renault engine contracts roll those over in 2014, we're going to see half the field using Renault engines - that is going to put Renault in a very strong position when it comes to negotiating with the FIA over future engine regulations.

All Italian press except Tuttosport. Which is heavily linked via ownership to Fiat. Either they're staying quiet because they don't want to give the game away, or because they know the rumours won't come to anything.

CarlosFerreira wrote:

DanielPT wrote:

CarlosFerreira wrote:
I am vaguely annoyed by Vettel.

I can say more. I can say that I am vaguely annoyed by Vettel having been in what is clearly the best car for 3 and a half years and many people already think that he is one of the GoAT. Although I must say that if instead of Vettel, Red Bull had another Mark Webber, they would have about 0 WDCs.

I wouldn't even go as far as that. Vettel annoys me vaguely, but I can't even say why. A bit like Nick Heidfeld, or Felipe Massa.

I hate the finger

mario wrote:Looks like the Italian press, unsurprisingly, have picked up on the suggestion that Force India are thinking of switching to Ferrari for 2014, with Bianchi moving into a stronger position on the back of that deal.
Connected with that rumour, there is another interesting suggestion that we might be seeing more changes in the engine picture for 2014 - it is being suggested that Toro Rosso will be ditching their Ferrari engine contract for 2014 and instead use Renault's turbo engine (and, presumably, the Red Bull KERS instead of the Magnetti Marelli system they use now).
If that is so, and the teams that already have Renault engine contracts roll those over in 2014, we're going to see half the field using Renault engines - that is going to put Renault in a very strong position when it comes to negotiating with the FIA over future engine regulations.

So, there's a chance of Marussia getting a Mercedes Engine for 2014.

In the end what is very positive for Vettel's reputation is that he won the 2008 Italian Grand Prix in a Toro Rosso!

It has similarities to Loeb, who won rallies (and was 2nd in the championship 2003), before the "2 manufacturer era" in the WRC.

Point I'm trying to make is that Loeb won rallies before the likes of Makinen, McRae, Sainz, Gronholm, Panizzi etc. retired (and when there was actually some competition against Citroen). Vettel, won a grand prix in challenging conditions, in a inferior car to the McLaren, Ferrari and BMW Sauber.

Vettel's all championships have been on merit. However, I don't want to list him yet on any GOAT-lists because he has way more seasons ahead of him and I want to see how he turns out in the end. I'd also put Hamilton in that same category. The only active driver's that I list as being in the GOAT discussions are Alonso and Raikkonen. Alonso because he has been now the best driver on the grid for a while and Raikkonen because there was times where he has had even more raw pace than one Ayrton Senna (My opinion).

Raikkonen will go down very well into the history books because of his genuine speed and personality. In 50 years I'll believe more people will know who Kimi was than Hakkinen.

I still don't understand why Webber never drove for Renault while Flav was there. In 05 06 he could've challenge Fernando for the championship.

Benetton wrote:Raikkonen will go down very well into the history books because of his genuine speed and personality. In 50 years I'll believe more people will know who Kimi was than Hakkinen.

This has to be one of the strangest things I remember reading. Hakkinen is a champion, a guy who survived a near fatal crash to come back and take the fight to Schumacher, back when Schumacher was at the absolute top of his game. Hakkinen deserves a place amongst the greats of the modern era, alongside people like Schumacher and Alonso.

Raikkonen might be fast, I'll give him that, but he has arguably not once been the fastest driver throughout a season. He strikes me more as a conceited brat who likes to pretend he doesn't want to be in F1.

Dj_bereta wrote:

mario wrote:Looks like the Italian press, unsurprisingly, have picked up on the suggestion that Force India are thinking of switching to Ferrari for 2014, with Bianchi moving into a stronger position on the back of that deal.
Connected with that rumour, there is another interesting suggestion that we might be seeing more changes in the engine picture for 2014 - it is being suggested that Toro Rosso will be ditching their Ferrari engine contract for 2014 and instead use Renault's turbo engine (and, presumably, the Red Bull KERS instead of the Magnetti Marelli system they use now).
If that is so, and the teams that already have Renault engine contracts roll those over in 2014, we're going to see half the field using Renault engines - that is going to put Renault in a very strong position when it comes to negotiating with the FIA over future engine regulations.

So, there's a chance of Marussia getting a Mercedes Engine for 2014.

Lawdy, it's the 1970s again...