Grand Prix Rejects

You can add Yeongnam to that list. It was supposed to be street circuit by now...oh dear...

DanielPT wrote:

mario wrote:Any particular reason why you want that to happen? Of course, that does assume that both venues are able to hold a race in the first place - we know that Bernie has been rather critical of the organisers of the race in New Jersey, and there are still a few questions over how secure the funding is for that event (especially over the current lack of a title sponsor).

I would take that "Bernie has been rather critical of the organisers" with a pinch of salt. That is Bernie MO. And it is such that I, for instance, couldn't care less of what he says. Remember when he criticised the Circuit of Americas owners over financing and legal disputes? Well, it seems that we will have the race after all that. I sincerely think that this is the way of Bernie keeping those guys on the tip of their toes and that Texas survived less favourable circumstances than New Jersey. On top of all this, Bernie fought for a long time to have a race in the New York region and he didn't hide it (although he preferred Manhattan, but this is the closest he will ever get). There is absolutely no way that he will let it slip out of his fingers and not when he is so close to have it. Then there is the fact that Bernie always respects his contracts. As for renewing them, it is another matter altogether. Let's face it, New Jersey will happen.

It just blew in my face. The only time I shrug off Bernie completely, is the only time he does cancel a race. I am expecting, though, a final push that makes the race possible in 2014.

Schuey retiring at Jerez '97 was the best moment in F1 history.

darkapprentice77 wrote:Schuey retiring at Jerez '97 was the best moment in F1 history.

Equally, Adelaide 1994 has to to go down as the worst moment in Schumacher's career (there are clearly many worst moments in F1 history generally, not just in 1994).

darkapprentice77 wrote:Kubica winning at Montreal '08 was the best moment in F1 history.

Fixed that one for you. No need to thank me.

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:

darkapprentice77 wrote:Maldonado winning at Spain '12 was the best moment in F1 history.

Fixed that one for you. No need to thank me.

Double-fixed.

BaconLettuceNinja wrote:

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:

darkapprentice77 wrote:Maldonado winning at Spain '12 was the best moment in F1 history.

Fixed that one for you. No need to thank me.

Double-fixed.

You win!

Fisi winning at Brasil in '03 was the most epic moment in history.

Just for how bathplugging horrid everything about it (the race, the wrecks, the fact the FIA didn't know its own rules) was. Still to this day, I'll pull up edits of it on Youtube and laugh.

The old Hockenheim is overrated.

darkapprentice77 wrote:The old Hockenheim is overrated.

As a driving experience, I agree with you, but in terms of developments no way. The old ring made teams actually create low-drag packages as there were two low-downforce tracks on the schedule (three if you count Indy's early days). Now with just one, teams oly really create a small rear wing, and hack the top off of the front. Not nearly as awesome IMO.

I miss the grooved tyres.

Wallio wrote:Fisi winning at Brasil in '03 was the most epic moment in history.

Just for how bathplugging horrid everything about it (the race, the wrecks, the fact the FIA didn't know its own rules) was. Still to this day, I'll pull up edits of it on Youtube and laugh.

It's one of those races which in the future, I'll be able to tell my kids 'yeah, I watched that live when I was your age'.

And for an unpopular opinion of my own: the 2003 season was better than this season.

East Londoner wrote:

And for an unpopular opinion of my own: the 2003 season was better than this season.

That's not only not unpopular, its true.

By 1996, the Marlboro liveries on the McLarens were outdated.

East Londoner wrote:And for an unpopular opinion of my own: the 2003 season was better than this season.

Not unpopular, just true

Given the median age of people in this forum, it probably happens that 2003 was one of the first seasons that many people here followed and so it's logical that you remember it as the best one. Anyone who started watching 2001, 2002 or 2003 is likely to think it.

For me 1999 and 2000 are and will always be the best seasons ever. Those were my first two; those were the days... But I know it's not an impartial but a subjective appreciation.

Ferrim wrote:Given the median age of people in this forum, it probably happens that 2003 was one of the first seasons that many people here followed and so it's logical that you remember it as the best one. Anyone who started watching 2001, 2002 or 2003 is likely to think it.

For me 1999 and 2000 are and will always be the best seasons ever. Those were my first two; those were the days... But I know it's not an impartial but a subjective appreciation.

1999 was my favourite too. It's the first full season I actually remember.

1986 is better than 1985.

I started watching full time in 2005 but I don't really have any particular strong connection to that season. I preferred 2006 and 2007 personally.

I don't really have a favourite season, myself. If I had to say, probably 2010 since IMO Kubica was at his best then.

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:I don't really have a favourite season, myself. If I had to say, probably 2010 since IMO Kubica was at his best then.

I still can't get over the sheer quality of his Q3 lap at Monaco that year. If he was in a Red Bull in 2010, he probably would have won the title by like 200 points or some ridiculous number like that just by his driving throughout the year.

Wizzie wrote:

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:I don't really have a favourite season, myself. If I had to say, probably 2010 since IMO Kubica was at his best then.

I still can't get over the sheer quality of his Q3 lap at Monaco that year. If he was in a Red Bull in 2010, he probably would have won the title by like 200 points or some ridiculous number like that just by his driving throughout the year.

He probably could've dragged a Mercedes kicking and screaming into title contention that year. The last couple of years would certainly have been more interesting with him around, say, at McLaren, so then all 3 top teams have a driver capable of delivering top-line performances race-in, race-out.

Wallio wrote:

darkapprentice77 wrote:The old Hockenheim is overrated.

As a driving experience, I agree with you, but in terms of developments no way. The old ring made teams actually create low-drag packages as there were two low-downforce tracks on the schedule (three if you count Indy's early days). Now with just one, teams oly really create a small rear wing, and hack the top off of the front. Not nearly as awesome IMO.

Completely agree with every word Wallio has said there. One of the best things about watching a race on the old Hockenhiem track, was seeing just how twitchy the cars were through the stadium section, because of the low downforce set-ups. Especially during qualifying. Then there was the epic engine failures, that only the Old Hockenhiem track could produce.

I'd say my fave season from each decade since the 70s (I wasn't born in 1976 but it sounds epic from what I've read)

70s: 1976
80s: 1989, or failing that 1981. I don't think I'd have really liked the turbo years all that much if I'd seen them as "current" with all the economy runs and stuff mainly in 85 and 86, and ridiculous gaps between turbos and non-turbos in seasons like 83.
90s: 1998
00s: 2008 (2003 would be my 2nd favourite)
10s: 2010

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:

Wizzie wrote:

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:I don't really have a favourite season, myself. If I had to say, probably 2010 since IMO Kubica was at his best then.

I still can't get over the sheer quality of his Q3 lap at Monaco that year. If he was in a Red Bull in 2010, he probably would have won the title by like 200 points or some ridiculous number like that just by his driving throughout the year.

He probably could've dragged a Mercedes kicking and screaming into title contention that year. The last couple of years would certainly have been more interesting with him around, say, at McLaren, so then all 3 top teams have a driver capable of delivering top-line performances race-in, race-out.

His consistency was the other important factor that year too (which was part of the reason why, despite driving the third best car in 2008, he was in title contention for much of that year) - if he was driving this year and on similar form as he was then, I suspect that he could have done quite well in the initially variable conditions earlier this year, much as Alonso did, by being consistently in the leading pack.

Ferrim wrote:Given the median age of people in this forum, it probably happens that 2003 was one of the first seasons that many people here followed and so it's logical that you remember it as the best one. Anyone who started watching 2001, 2002 or 2003 is likely to think it.

For me 1999 and 2000 are and will always be the best seasons ever. Those were my first two; those were the days... But I know it's not an impartial but a subjective appreciation.

2002 was hte first season I remember watching, and 2003 and 2005 are my favourite seasons.

darkapprentice77 wrote:Raikkonen winning at Suzuka '05 was the best moment in F1 history.

Thats fixed now I think

I think no amount of rose tinted glasses can justify people saying one of the 'dreaded' Schumacher years was the best they've seen.

It is just that those days ended up seeing many 'fans' fleeing the sport and all that. Although yes, I agree that 03 was the best of them. Anyway, since then we've seen great seasons like 07, which was an instant classic and even before it, 06 wasn't that bad for me either. 09 was also good and the humdinger of them all, 2010. This year (2012) had one of the best starts IMHO because you just couldn't predict who would be on top but the late RBR steamroller kind of annoyed me a bit. It is still a good season though. Before 03, I would say 98 and 99 for different reasons. Ranked after that, 97 wasn't bad either and obviously 91 (better than 97 but I admit it is more difficult for me to remember details from the first). I personally loved 92 and 93 but that is because I am a big Williams fan. For obvious reasons, 94 was the worst I've seen...

DanielPT wrote:I think no amount of rose tinted glasses can justify people saying one of the 'dreaded' Schumacher years was the best they've seen.

2003 was relatively close and 2004, while Schumacher and Ferrari steamrolled everything at the front, had actually quite entertaining races (at least that's my opinion). Of course due to my avatar I am contractually bound to make a case for 2001 as well but I can't since the races that year weren't that much fun, at least most of them. So while calling them the best is obviously to be taken with a huge chunk of nostalgia but they weren't absolutely horrendous either.

1994 was the first year I started following F1 closely but I can hardly call that a classic year. 1995 is my favourite of Schumi's titles though

I started watching in mid 2004 but the first full season I watched was 2005 and my favourite season is eather 2009 or 2010

F1 wings should be mandated to look like these.

What is downforce?

Cynon wrote:F1 wings should be mandated to look like these.

What is downforce?

They had ground effect so that is downforce

With the likes of eurobrun around, this is a VERY unpopular opinion: I hope Valteri Bottas does well in F1.

takagi_for_the_win wrote:With the likes of eurobrun around, this is a VERY unpopular opinion: I hope Valteri Bottas does well in F1.

same here because he has been very quick in practise sessions this season

Cynon wrote:F1 wings should be mandated to look like these.

What is downforce?

I'd go further:

Seriously, it's shameful to see every major series ignoring this innovative concept. The DeltaWing is a pretty efficient race car, and also road relevant. This car doesn't rely on wings, but on ground effect. It's also pretty light, therefore automakers who look into making their cars lighter and aerodynamically more efficient, should definitely take this concept into consideration.

As I said, it's almost humiliating to see the DeltaWing ending up as a spec-class in the ALMS next year. IndyCar and F1 really should (have) pick(ed) up that concept. The car looks spectacular, and might draw some new fans into this sport.

Ferrarist wrote:

Cynon wrote:F1 wings should be mandated to look like these.

What is downforce?

I'd go further:

Seriously, it's shameful to see every major series ignoring this innovative concept. The DeltaWing is a pretty efficient race car, and also road relevant. This car doesn't rely on wings, but on ground effect. It's also pretty light, therefore automakers who look into making their cars lighter and aerodynamically more efficient, should definitely take this concept into consideration.

As I said, it's almost humiliating to see the DeltaWing ending up as a spec-class in the ALMS next year. IndyCar and F1 really should (have) pick(ed) up that concept. The car looks spectacular, and might draw some new fans into this sport.

Err..... no, it doesn't. It looks like crap. It's an innovative project, granted, and I'm amazed it can turn corners, but for me I feel like it's trying to re-invent the wheel a bit too much. Besides, the shape doesn't feel right. I couldn't look at that and think of a Formula One car, it looks like a dragster.

pasta_maldonado wrote:

Ferrarist wrote:I'd go further:

Seriously, it's shameful to see every major series ignoring this innovative concept. The DeltaWing is a pretty efficient race car, and also road relevant. This car doesn't rely on wings, but on ground effect. It's also pretty light, therefore automakers who look into making their cars lighter and aerodynamically more efficient, should definitely take this concept into consideration.

As I said, it's almost humiliating to see the DeltaWing ending up as a spec-class in the ALMS next year. IndyCar and F1 really should (have) pick(ed) up that concept. The car looks spectacular, and might draw some new fans into this sport.

Err..... no, it doesn't. It looks like crap. It's an innovative project, granted, and I'm amazed it can turn corners, but for me I feel like it's trying to re-invent the wheel a bit too much. Besides, the shape doesn't feel right. I couldn't look at that and think of a Formula One car, it looks like a dragster.

still came 5th at petite le mans so can't be that crap

roblomas52 wrote:

pasta_maldonado wrote:

Ferrarist wrote:I'd go further:

Seriously, it's shameful to see every major series ignoring this innovative concept. The DeltaWing is a pretty efficient race car, and also road relevant. This car doesn't rely on wings, but on ground effect. It's also pretty light, therefore automakers who look into making their cars lighter and aerodynamically more efficient, should definitely take this concept into consideration.

As I said, it's almost humiliating to see the DeltaWing ending up as a spec-class in the ALMS next year. IndyCar and F1 really should (have) pick(ed) up that concept. The car looks spectacular, and might draw some new fans into this sport.

Err..... no, it doesn't. It looks like crap. It's an innovative project, granted, and I'm amazed it can turn corners, but for me I feel like it's trying to re-invent the wheel a bit too much. Besides, the shape doesn't feel right. I couldn't look at that and think of a Formula One car, it looks like a dragster.

still came 5th at petite le mans so can't be that crap

Was it actually classified? Unlike Le Mans?

I personally hate the DW. To me it a big scam. Its hardly innovative at all. Its a lightweight car with ground effect, so its basically every Indycar and Group C car from 1980-1997 or so. And its phallic shape is not innovative (or good looking) as salt flat cars had that shape in the '40s and '50s. Yes its weird rear-end is fairly novel, but no one understands how it works, save for James May. And the "Nissan DeltaWing" is an Aston Martin with a Chevy engine. What the bathplug?

As to the point many keep repeating about Indycar "failing" for passing on it, keep in mind (besides not actually being open wheel) the DW group expressedly banned anyone from making their own parts for it. You would have to design the part, and let DW build it and sell it for their profit, not your own. Who's going to do that? This is why its a spec class in ALMS, the DW group demanded it as such.

Wallio wrote:Was it actually classified? Unlike Le Mans?

No, it wasn't. Against who should it be classified anyway?

I personally hate the DW. To me it a big scam. Its hardly innovative at all. Its a lightweight car with ground effect, so its basically every Indycar and Group C car from 1980-1997 or so. And its phallic shape is not innovative (or good looking) as salt flat cars had that shape in the '40s and '50s. Yes its weird rear-end is fairly novel, but no one understands how it works, save for James May. And the "Nissan DeltaWing" is an Aston Martin with a Chevy engine. What the bathplug?

I agree with you that a lightweight, ground effect car is hardly innovative. BUT the Delta Wing manages to achieve similar speeds than others, without the downforce race cars use through their wings.

As to the point many keep repeating about Indycar "failing" for passing on it, keep in mind (besides not actually being open wheel) the DW group expressedly banned anyone from making their own parts for it. You would have to design the part, and let DW build it and sell it for their profit, not your own. Who's going to do that? This is why its a spec class in ALMS, the DW group demanded it as such.

Ironically, IndyCar chose the Dallara design, and team owners are complaining that they have to buy spare parts from Dallara.
Anyway, I rather see the DeltaWing as a benchmark for other, similar cars. At least someone was trying to think out of the box. That's what's missing in the age, where everything seems to be a spec-part.

Ferrarist wrote:

Wallio wrote:Was it actually classified? Unlike Le Mans?

No, it wasn't. Against who should it be classified anyway?


Ironically, IndyCar chose the Dallara design, and team owners are complaining that they have to buy spare parts from Dallara.
Anyway, I rather see the DeltaWing as a benchmark for other, similar cars. At least someone was trying to think out of the box. That's what's missing in the age, where everything seems to be a spec-part.

Fair points, and yes the Indycar owners are whinny basterds, but the current parts situation has come about from their own doing. They rejected aero-kits for 2013 and 2013 (and now that Randy's gone permanently) and companies like Lola ans Swift have no interest building parts for a Dallara that they will get no credit for (if the new aero kits would have come in cars would be Dallara-Hondas or Swift Chevys, but now they are just Dallaras) and make little money off of (the spares prices are actually cheaper than the old crapboxes, despite owner protests).

As for running the DW out of the box, you may get your wish. Part of Don Panoz selling out to NASCAR was they had to accomodate the DW in the merged Grand-Am. However, NASCAR wants less classes not more, and the rumors are the DW class will be added to the merged LMPC/DP class. The possibility also exsists that LMP2 will be added to this generic protoype class, but thats more unlikely.

Wallio wrote:Fair points, and yes the Indycar owners are whinny basterds, but the current parts situation has come about from their own doing. They rejected aero-kits for 2013 and 2013 (and now that Randy's gone permanently) and companies like Lola ans Swift have no interest building parts for a Dallara that they will get no credit for (if the new aero kits would have come in cars would be Dallara-Hondas or Swift Chevys, but now they are just Dallaras) and make little money off of (the spares prices are actually cheaper than the old crapboxes, despite owner protests).

Absolutely! In fact, they could have Lolas, Swifts, Dallaras and maybe the DeltaWing in IndyCar, but the owner wanted a single-spec car so much. It gets even funnier, when you consider that some owners wanted the Lola, some the Swift and so on.

As for running the DW out of the box, you may get your wish. Part of Don Panoz selling out to NASCAR was they had to accomodate the DW in the merged Grand-Am. However, NASCAR wants less classes not more, and the rumors are the DW class will be added to the merged LMPC/DP class. The possibility also exsists that LMP2 will be added to this generic protoype class, but thats more unlikely.

At least we can see, how the DeltaWing can fare against DPs and LMPs. Even though it will probably involve lots of BoP.

Here's another unpopular opinion: The only one, who can really fix IndyCar and the speedway will be someone with lots of money. With Roger Penske not really wanting to do any significant investments (Due to age...I guess), the only one can be just NASCAR. Given where IndyCar is now, they can just profit from jumping under the NASCAR umbrella. NASCAR has superior marketing possibilities, owns almost all important tracks in the USA, and probably isn't so stupid to remove the open-wheelers from the 500.

Let's face it, all North American racing (Bar international series like F1, MotoGP or V8 Supercars) will be under the NASCAR banner in the future. The stock cars will always be the #1 for NASCAR, of course. But other series may grow and thrive as well in the future. Besides, NASCAR isn't that different from the FIA anymore, in my opinion.