Grand Prix Rejects

Ferrarist wrote:

Wallio wrote:Was it actually classified? Unlike Le Mans?

No, it wasn't. Against who should it be classified anyway?

I personally hate the DW. To me it a big scam. Its hardly innovative at all. Its a lightweight car with ground effect, so its basically every Indycar and Group C car from 1980-1997 or so. And its phallic shape is not innovative (or good looking) as salt flat cars had that shape in the '40s and '50s. Yes its weird rear-end is fairly novel, but no one understands how it works, save for James May. And the "Nissan DeltaWing" is an Aston Martin with a Chevy engine. What the bathplug?

I agree with you that a lightweight, ground effect car is hardly innovative. BUT the Delta Wing manages to achieve similar speeds than others, without the downforce race cars use through their wings.

Ferrarist wrote:

Wallio wrote:Fair points, and yes the Indycar owners are whinny basterds, but the current parts situation has come about from their own doing. They rejected aero-kits for 2013 and 2013 (and now that Randy's gone permanently) and companies like Lola ans Swift have no interest building parts for a Dallara that they will get no credit for (if the new aero kits would have come in cars would be Dallara-Hondas or Swift Chevys, but now they are just Dallaras) and make little money off of (the spares prices are actually cheaper than the old crapboxes, despite owner protests).

Absolutely! In fact, they could have Lolas, Swifts, Dallaras and maybe the DeltaWing in IndyCar, but the owner wanted a single-spec car so much. It gets even funnier, when you consider that some owners wanted the Lola, some the Swift and so on.

As for running the DW out of the box, you may get your wish. Part of Don Panoz selling out to NASCAR was they had to accomodate the DW in the merged Grand-Am. However, NASCAR wants less classes not more, and the rumors are the DW class will be added to the merged LMPC/DP class. The possibility also exsists that LMP2 will be added to this generic protoype class, but thats more unlikely.

At least we can see, how the DeltaWing can fare against DPs and LMPs. Even though it will probably involve lots of BoP.

Here's another unpopular opinion: The only one, who can really fix IndyCar and the speedway will be someone with lots of money. With Roger Penske not really wanting to do any significant investments (Due to age...I guess), the only one can be just NASCAR. Given where IndyCar is now, they can just profit from jumping under the NASCAR umbrella. NASCAR has superior marketing possibilities, owns almost all important tracks in the USA, and probably isn't so stupid to remove the open-wheelers from the 500.

Let's face it, all North American racing (Bar international series like F1, MotoGP or V8 Supercars) will be under the NASCAR banner in the future. The stock cars will always be the #1 for NASCAR, of course. But other series may grow and thrive as well in the future. Besides, NASCAR isn't that different from the FIA anymore, in my opinion.

Wallio wrote:

Ferrarist wrote:

Wallio wrote:Fair points, and yes the Indycar owners are whinny basterds, but the current parts situation has come about from their own doing. They rejected aero-kits for 2013 and 2013 (and now that Randy's gone permanently) and companies like Lola ans Swift have no interest building parts for a Dallara that they will get no credit for (if the new aero kits would have come in cars would be Dallara-Hondas or Swift Chevys, but now they are just Dallaras) and make little money off of (the spares prices are actually cheaper than the old crapboxes, despite owner protests).

Absolutely! In fact, they could have Lolas, Swifts, Dallaras and maybe the DeltaWing in IndyCar, but the owner wanted a single-spec car so much. It gets even funnier, when you consider that some owners wanted the Lola, some the Swift and so on.

As for running the DW out of the box, you may get your wish. Part of Don Panoz selling out to NASCAR was they had to accomodate the DW in the merged Grand-Am. However, NASCAR wants less classes not more, and the rumors are the DW class will be added to the merged LMPC/DP class. The possibility also exsists that LMP2 will be added to this generic protoype class, but thats more unlikely.

At least we can see, how the DeltaWing can fare against DPs and LMPs. Even though it will probably involve lots of BoP.

Here's another unpopular opinion: The only one, who can really fix IndyCar and the speedway will be someone with lots of money. With Roger Penske not really wanting to do any significant investments (Due to age...I guess), the only one can be just NASCAR. Given where IndyCar is now, they can just profit from jumping under the NASCAR umbrella. NASCAR has superior marketing possibilities, owns almost all important tracks in the USA, and probably isn't so stupid to remove the open-wheelers from the 500.

Let's face it, all North American racing (Bar international series like F1, MotoGP or V8 Supercars) will be under the NASCAR banner in the future. The stock cars will always be the #1 for NASCAR, of course. But other series may grow and thrive as well in the future. Besides, NASCAR isn't that different from the FIA anymore, in my opinion.

And even international series are "going to the dark side" as NASCAR is the rights holder/sanctioning body for next years DTM USA! BWAHAHAHA

pasta_maldonado wrote:NASCAR is not motorsport.

pasta_maldonado wrote:NASCAR is not motorsport.

Wallio wrote:

pasta_maldonado wrote:NASCAR is not motorsport.

If you are referring to the sanctioning body itself, and its rulebook written in pencil, I agree and would say thats not unpopular at all (scary for an American) but for whatever reason (size and fiscal sability I'm guessing) it is being regarded as legitimate. Grand-Am had a fairly close (by USA standards) relansonship with the FIA, and now the ACO in some form with the merger (the merged series will allegedly still send team to Le Mans, unless your a DP or DW) and as I mentioned, the Frances brought DTM here and believe it or not, are working on bring over a Super GT USA series. Which would be epic.

pasta_maldonado wrote:

Wallio wrote:

pasta_maldonado wrote:NASCAR is not motorsport.

If you are referring to the sanctioning body itself, and its rulebook written in pencil, I agree and would say thats not unpopular at all (scary for an American) but for whatever reason (size and fiscal sability I'm guessing) it is being regarded as legitimate. Grand-Am had a fairly close (by USA standards) relansonship with the FIA, and now the ACO in some form with the merger (the merged series will allegedly still send team to Le Mans, unless your a DP or DW) and as I mentioned, the Frances brought DTM here and believe it or not, are working on bring over a Super GT USA series. Which would be epic.

Maybe I was a little childish on that one. I like some aspects of NASCAR and i dislike others. The close racin is fantastic,as are some of the tracks they race on. But unfortunately the negatives for me outweigh the positives. I don't like the cars - they are too big,clunky and outdated. I don't like the governing body for the rules they produce (like that rule that allows drivets to lunt others of the track!). The fans, in general, don't have a clue about anything and watch NASCAR because of the crashes.

NASCAR could be improved by just changing a few things. first, get rid of those tiny little ovals. Second, allow the cars to be lighter and have more downforce for road circuits. Third, add more road circuits. Four, ditch The Chase, the ridiculous points system and all those ridiculous rules

mario wrote:Technically, the fact that they have achieved the performance figures that they claimed is respectable enough, but on the other hand the car does come across as something of a technical dead end. By the admission of the designers behind the concept, the overall nature of the car is completely irrelevant and impractical for passenger cars, rather limiting the amount of technological transfer that could actually occur.
Furthermore, in many ways the DeltaWing has been the beneficiary of road car technology, rather than promoting it - the engine itself uses fuel injection technology that Nissan started developing back in the 1990's (whilst Audi had a quite sophisticated high pressure direct fuel injection system on the R8 over a decade ago), so in that sense it isn't really helping promote new technologies.

Wallio wrote:And even international series are "going to the dark side" as NASCAR is the rights holder/sanctioning body for next years DTM USA! BWAHAHAHA

Ferrarist wrote:

mario wrote:Technically, the fact that they have achieved the performance figures that they claimed is respectable enough, but on the other hand the car does come across as something of a technical dead end. By the admission of the designers behind the concept, the overall nature of the car is completely irrelevant and impractical for passenger cars, rather limiting the amount of technological transfer that could actually occur.
Furthermore, in many ways the DeltaWing has been the beneficiary of road car technology, rather than promoting it - the engine itself uses fuel injection technology that Nissan started developing back in the 1990's (whilst Audi had a quite sophisticated high pressure direct fuel injection system on the R8 over a decade ago), so in that sense it isn't really helping promote new technologies.

Okay, I'm willing to accept this explanation. Still, the DeltaWing just looks different from today's formula cars, and my point was that at least someone was trying to do things differently.

Wallio wrote:And even international series are "going to the dark side" as NASCAR is the rights holder/sanctioning body for next years DTM USA! BWAHAHAHA

The DTM-USA thing won't happen for now. After all, Grand-AM and ALMS will merge, so they have better things to do with their time.

darkapprentice77 wrote:BAR were even worse in 2005 than in 1999.

darkapprentice77 wrote:BAR were even worse in 2007 than in 1999.

darkapprentice77 wrote:BAR were even worse in 2008 than in 1999.

darkapprentice77 wrote:BAR were even worse in 1998 than in 1999.

Ferrarist wrote:


Let's face it, all North American racing (Bar international series like F1, MotoGP or V8 Supercars) will be under the NASCAR banner in the future. The stock cars will always be the #1 for NASCAR, of course. But other series may grow and thrive as well in the future. Besides, NASCAR isn't that different from the FIA anymore, in my opinion.

JeremyMcClean wrote:

darkapprentice77 wrote:BAR were even worse in 1998 than in 1999.

Fixed, end of.

takagi_for_the_win wrote:

JeremyMcClean wrote:

darkapprentice77 wrote:BAR were even worse in 1998 than in 1999.

Fixed, end of.

I doubt even HWNSNBM could have dragged that car to the points, which is incredible, given that we've established he could win championships in Trabants, etc

Shadaza wrote:Vettel is one of the most talented F1 drivers of all time. Certainly better than any of the Williams 90's champions (bar Prost).

Shadaza wrote:Vettel is one of the most talented F1 drivers of all time. Certainly better than any of the Williams 90's champions (bar Prost).

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:

Shadaza wrote:Vettel is one of the most talented F1 drivers of all time. Certainly better than any of the Williams 90's champions (bar Prost).

I agree. People can complain that he doesn't outperform his car or whatever, but that's because he has the best car. Just look at what he did at his other two teams.

giraurd wrote:@Blindcavesalamander: don't want to take part in vettel-great-or-not fights, but 'he didn't do anything better than Kubica at BMW Sauber', when he barely had any in car experience and only filled in for 1 race, is not a really good argument.

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:

Shadaza wrote:Vettel is one of the most talented F1 drivers of all time. Certainly better than any of the Williams 90's champions (bar Prost).

I agree. People can complain that he doesn't outperform his car or whatever, but that's because he has the best car. Just look at what he did at his other two teams.

Ferrarist wrote:@Wallio: Does NASCAR really run ARCA? I thought that ARCA was independent from NASCAR. Also, there won't be a DTM AND a SuperGT series. DTM and SuperGT merged their rules, so they'll run the same cars from 2014 on. That means that NASCAR would just need to integrate one series into its line-up.

Nonetheless, it's impressive how large NASCAR is. But I wonder what will happen to them, once they peak in their size.

Shadaza wrote:Vettel is one of the most talented F1 drivers of all time. Certainly better than any of the Williams 90's champions (bar Prost).

takagi_for_the_win wrote:

Shadaza wrote:Vettel is one of the most talented F1 drivers of all time. Certainly better than any of the Williams 90's champions (bar Prost).

Better than Hill and Villeneuve? Yes. Better than Mansell? Doubtful. Better than Prost? No way. For me, the only way Vettel will join the pantheon would be to win the championship or to come mighty close while driving an inferior car, or to gain the immense respect of one the true greats i.e. Senna had great respect for Mansell, even though Mansells only title was a cakewalk, and Schumi had massive respect for Hakkinen, even though Hakkinens titles were won with Neweymobiles. Just my 2 cents

James1978 wrote:Vettel has proved he is a bit better than Tonio Liuzzi, Sebastien Bourdais and Mark Webber. That's all.

I would like to see him at Ferrari with Alonso - if he goes there and beats or at least equals Alonso then my respect for him would shoot up.

Wizzie wrote:

James1978 wrote:Vettel has proved he is a bit better than Tonio Liuzzi, Sebastien Bourdais and Mark Webber. That's all.

I would like to see him at Ferrari with Alonso - if he goes there and beats or at least equals Alonso then my respect for him would shoot up.

Since when was being better than Liuzzi an achievement?

Cynon wrote:

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:

Shadaza wrote:Vettel is one of the most talented F1 drivers of all time. Certainly better than any of the Williams 90's champions (bar Prost).

I agree. People can complain that he doesn't outperform his car or whatever, but that's because he has the best car. Just look at what he did at his other two teams.

The average driver would be where Webber is, because Webber really is just an average driver.

roblomas52 wrote:Prost was better than senna

Dj_bereta wrote:A very, very unpopular one:

Button only won the title in 2009 because he was lucky. Barrichello had a lot of more mechanical problems than him and he suffered from Ross Brawn's crazy tatics. Barrichello could be the world champion of 2009, because he clearly faster than Jenson.

Also, Vettel and Webber were unlucky in that year.

JeremyMcClean wrote:

Dj_bereta wrote:A very, very unpopular one:

Button only won the title in 2009 because he was lucky. Barrichello had a lot of more mechanical problems than him and he suffered from Ross Brawn's crazy tatics. Barrichello could be the world champion of 2009, because he clearly faster than Jenson.

Also, Vettel and Webber were unlucky in that year.

Agreed that Vettel and Webber were unlucky. And maybe the theory on Brawn's crazy tactics. (For all I care he should have been 2nd by a mile!) However, it is quite hard to beat someone after winning 6 of 7 races... and that takes talent.

simonracer wrote:

Ferrarist wrote:@Wallio: Does NASCAR really run ARCA? I thought that ARCA was independent from NASCAR. Also, there won't be a DTM AND a SuperGT series. DTM and SuperGT merged their rules, so they'll run the same cars from 2014 on. That means that NASCAR would just need to integrate one series into its line-up.

Nonetheless, it's impressive how large NASCAR is. But I wonder what will happen to them, once they peak in their size.

NASCAR does not own ARCA. ARCA stands for the Automobile Racing Club of America, which is a separate organization, and will be for the foreseeable future. They run their own tracks (I think the main one is Toledo, out in Ohio) and the like, and a few series themselves. They have their Re-Max series, which is their main championship, a truck series, and a late model series, I think. ARCA is however linked fairly closely with NASCAR.

NASCAR buying out Indycar would be a bad idea. I doubt NASCAR really cares about Indycar. Indycar is simply a rival to them. For years and years, they strived to be better then Indycar, and its predecessors. And their main attention will always be focused on the Sprint Cup Series.