2010 Belgian Grand Prix - Discussion thread
- ADx_Wales
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Re: 2010 Belgian Grand Prix - Discussion thread
Its BUTTON's Fault?
That he was ahead of him?
That he was better than him?
That he can control a car at high speed and not Seb?
Guilty on all counts, Christian Horn-Job is defending his bitch.
However, Seb is still a young driver, maybe a switch of teams will educate him. Rather than repeatedly being fed the same fluids at Red Bull.
As for braking points, there's a reason why he applied brakes where he did it, there was a bathplug chicane heading straight towards them, and from what was shown to the viewers of the BBC F1 Forum after the race, I saw nothing wrong with where Jenson Button applied a deceleratory force.
That he was ahead of him?
That he was better than him?
That he can control a car at high speed and not Seb?
Guilty on all counts, Christian Horn-Job is defending his bitch.
However, Seb is still a young driver, maybe a switch of teams will educate him. Rather than repeatedly being fed the same fluids at Red Bull.
As for braking points, there's a reason why he applied brakes where he did it, there was a bathplug chicane heading straight towards them, and from what was shown to the viewers of the BBC F1 Forum after the race, I saw nothing wrong with where Jenson Button applied a deceleratory force.
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Re: 2010 Belgian Grand Prix - Discussion thread
ADx_Wales wrote:However, Seb is still a young driver, maybe a switch of teams will educate him. Rather than repeatedly being fed the same fluids at Red Bull.
Urgh. I had Horner and an inappropriate relationship with Vettel in my head as it was. You throw in the image of Vettel and fluids and my dinner is about to make a return.
I also think Vettel should switch teams. Not just because he must be getting tired of Horner squeezing his knee under the briefing table but because, as you suggest, he has a team telling him how he will be a world champion any day now and its not working. He could be too comfortable. Look at Webber, rejected by his team, treated with contempt by his team principle, formerly an iffy bet to retain his drive next year and the results just keep coming.
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- DonTirri
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Re: 2010 Belgian Grand Prix - Discussion thread
ADx_Wales wrote:
That he was ahead of him?
That he was better than him?
That he can control a car at high speed and not Seb?
OI. thats unneccesarily harsh on poor Seb. Only first one is something undebatable. Second is very much debatable and the third one is just plain mean.
Even the best ones make mistakes, especially on damp conditions.
Now, I do agree that Vettel was his own worst enemy at Spa. I like him, but it's obvious he doesn't have the mental edge needed to cope with a title campaign YET.
I got Pointed Opinions and I ain't afraid to use em!
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BTW, thats Räikkönen with two K's and two N's. Not Raikonnen (Raikkonen is fine if you have no umlauts though)
F1rejects no.1Räikkönen and Vettel fan.
BTW, thats Räikkönen with two K's and two N's. Not Raikonnen (Raikkonen is fine if you have no umlauts though)
- ADx_Wales
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Re: 2010 Belgian Grand Prix - Discussion thread
Very Much tongue in cheek Mr Tirri, will not stand by those comments with pride in my eyes.
However, What destroys Christian Horner's comment is that anyone else put in the same scenario would have lost control and hit Button, racing incident if it has to be said. No argument needed.
However, What destroys Christian Horner's comment is that anyone else put in the same scenario would have lost control and hit Button, racing incident if it has to be said. No argument needed.
"The worst part of my body that hurt in the fire was my balls" Gerhard Berger on Imola 1989
- CarlosFerreira
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Re: 2010 Belgian Grand Prix - Discussion thread
DonTirri wrote:ADx_Wales wrote:
That he was ahead of him?
That he was better than him?
That he can control a car at high speed and not Seb?
OI. thats unneccesarily harsh on poor Seb. Only first one is something undebatable. Second is very much debatable and the third one is just plain mean.
Even the best ones make mistakes, especially on damp conditions.
Now, I do agree that Vettel was his own worst enemy at Spa. I like him, but it's obvious he doesn't have the mental edge needed to cope with a title campaign YET.
I have to say, I don't understand how a man who used to support Raikkonen (tough, brave, blindingly fast) comes to support Vettel (blond, whining, out of a boys-band). But hey, it's up to you, man.
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Re: 2010 Belgian Grand Prix - Discussion thread
coops wrote:ADx_Wales wrote:However, Seb is still a young driver, maybe a switch of teams will educate him. Rather than repeatedly being fed the same fluids at Red Bull.
Urgh. I had Horner and an inappropriate relationship with Vettel in my head as it was. You throw in the image of Vettel and fluids and my dinner is about to make a return.
I also think Vettel should switch teams. Not just because he must be getting tired of Horner squeezing his knee under the briefing table but because, as you suggest, he has a team telling him how he will be a world champion any day now and its not working. He could be too comfortable. Look at Webber, rejected by his team, treated with contempt by his team principle, formerly an iffy bet to retain his drive next year and the results just keep coming.
He should go and drive for Patrick Head. Who will no doubt squeeze other bits under the table if he keeps making these errors.
"Other than the car behind and the driver who might get a bit startled with the sudden explosion in front, it really isn't a major safety issue from that point of view,"
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Re: 2010 Belgian Grand Prix - Discussion thread
Its bad enough being involved with Helmut Marko
"The worst part of my body that hurt in the fire was my balls" Gerhard Berger on Imola 1989
Re: 2010 Belgian Grand Prix - Discussion thread
Ross Prawn wrote:He should go and drive for Patrick Head. Who will no doubt squeeze other bits under the table if he keeps making these errors.
Yeah, perhaps he needs a gaffer who's not afraid of delivering a bollocking. With Vettel being the Red Bull Star Horner may politically not be in a position to castigate him too much. Perhaps Horner is more replaceable than Vettel and he knows it.
"Aerodynamics is for those who cannot manufacture good engines."
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Re: 2010 Belgian Grand Prix - Discussion thread
coops wrote:Ross Prawn wrote:He should go and drive for Patrick Head. Who will no doubt squeeze other bits under the table if he keeps making these errors.
Yeah, perhaps he needs a gaffer who's not afraid of delivering a bollocking. With Vettel being the Red Bull Star Horner may politically not be in a position to castigate him too much. Perhaps Horner is more replaceable than Vettel and he knows it.
Reminds me of the rather elegant way Whitmarsh responded when asked if he considered Webber to be Mclaren's main rival:
"I don't stop to think about it," he said. "I think they quite like their younger driver, so I doubt they will put their weight behind Mark."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86274
Would Horner feel under potential threat from above? It is known that Marko is very biased towards Vettel (this was a man who made it clear that Vettel would drive one of his cars when Vettel had barely begin in Formula 3), and it is true that Red Bull Racing seem more interested in exploiting the potential commercial advantage that Vettel's youthful image offers then Webber. Without any form of internal communications, we can't tell, although it is true that the possibility that Marko is influencing the team in Vettel's favour exists.
The problem is, Red Bull seem to be wavering between publicly castigating Vettel for his mistake, lest they over do it, and open themselves up to a really heavy barrage of criticism from the media, and letting it go in the hope that this sort of incident doesn't happen again. In the meantime, unless somebody else tells him otherwise, or he gets hit with a very big penalty, Vettel is going to continue acting in the same way - why should he act differently when he believes that what he is doing is OK?
Moving on from Vettel (because you could easily open up a new thread, and discuss his behaviour there), there is more news from Mercedes, who are still having teething problems with their car. It appears that despite the fact they have revised the diffuser several times since it was introduced in Valencia (for the practise sessions), they are still suffering from cooling problems, and parts of the floor are being damaged by the hot exhaust gasses. It is even more surprising when you consider how cool the weather has been at Spa (and having a fair bit of water spray from the tyres onto the floor must have helped cool it down). As such, therefore, they are planning on making further modifications to improve the cooling for Monza. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86286
Martin Brundle, on watching a replay of Grosjean spinning:
"The problem with Grosjean is that he want to take a look back at the corner he's just exited"
"The problem with Grosjean is that he want to take a look back at the corner he's just exited"
Re: 2010 Belgian Grand Prix - Discussion thread
coops wrote:Ross Prawn wrote:He should go and drive for Patrick Head. Who will no doubt squeeze other bits under the table if he keeps making these errors.
Yeah, perhaps he needs a gaffer who's not afraid of delivering a bollocking. With Vettel being the Red Bull Star Horner may politically not be in a position to castigate him too much. Perhaps Horner is more replaceable than Vettel and he knows it.
I'm really REALLY sorry for posting this, but if you read "castrate" instead of "castigate" (like I, admittedly, did), this post just becomes too... wrong.
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Re: 2010 Belgian Grand Prix - Discussion thread
Klon wrote:coops wrote:redbulljack14 wrote:Button's fault?, What on earth is he smoking?
He in luuuurrrve.
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Re: 2010 Belgian Grand Prix - Discussion thread
CarlosFerreira wrote:DonTirri wrote:ADx_Wales wrote:
That he was ahead of him?
That he was better than him?
That he can control a car at high speed and not Seb?
OI. thats unneccesarily harsh on poor Seb. Only first one is something undebatable. Second is very much debatable and the third one is just plain mean.
Even the best ones make mistakes, especially on damp conditions.
Now, I do agree that Vettel was his own worst enemy at Spa. I like him, but it's obvious he doesn't have the mental edge needed to cope with a title campaign YET.
I have to say, I don't understand how a man who used to support Raikkonen (tough, brave, blindingly fast) comes to support Vettel (blond, whining, out of a boys-band). But hey, it's up to you, man.
I can answer this one.
Ever since the female part of Raikkonen's fanclub noticed he and Vettel had become "BFFs", they jumped ship to the Vettel camp as soon as Raikkonen left. There's your explanation...
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Re: 2010 Belgian Grand Prix - Discussion thread
CarlosFerreira wrote:DonTirri wrote:ADx_Wales wrote:
That he was ahead of him?
That he was better than him?
That he can control a car at high speed and not Seb?
OI. thats unneccesarily harsh on poor Seb. Only first one is something undebatable. Second is very much debatable and the third one is just plain mean.
Even the best ones make mistakes, especially on damp conditions.
Now, I do agree that Vettel was his own worst enemy at Spa. I like him, but it's obvious he doesn't have the mental edge needed to cope with a title campaign YET.
I have to say, I don't understand how a man who used to support Raikkonen (tough, brave, blindingly fast) comes to support Vettel (blond, whining, out of a boys-band). But hey, it's up to you, man.
Well, I like to pick the drivers I support when theyre young so I don't need to change them every other year when they leave the sport
It was the win at Monza 08 that sold me to Seb. Granted, should Kobayashi-san get a championship challenging car, I would support him, not Vettel. But as it stands now, I can support both without any trouble.
I got Pointed Opinions and I ain't afraid to use em!
F1rejects no.1Räikkönen and Vettel fan.
BTW, thats Räikkönen with two K's and two N's. Not Raikonnen (Raikkonen is fine if you have no umlauts though)
F1rejects no.1Räikkönen and Vettel fan.
BTW, thats Räikkönen with two K's and two N's. Not Raikonnen (Raikkonen is fine if you have no umlauts though)
Re: 2010 Belgian Grand Prix - Discussion thread
Just to lighten things up a bit, here, in the spirit of the new-old podcast, is a Belgium GP haiku.
Spa's fickle weather,
Three of five fail, Seb: reject,
Lewis or Mark champ?
Spa's fickle weather,
Three of five fail, Seb: reject,
Lewis or Mark champ?
Re: 2010 Belgian Grand Prix - Discussion thread
DonTirri wrote:
Well, I like to pick the drivers I support when theyre young so I don't need to change them every other year when they leave the sport
I don't support drivers at all, that way I don't have to chop and change my support ever.
Re: 2010 Belgian Grand Prix - Discussion thread
Tombstone wrote:DonTirri wrote:
Well, I like to pick the drivers I support when theyre young so I don't need to change them every other year when they leave the sport
I don't support drivers at all, that way I don't have to chop and change my support ever.
Well, if you go back 10 years to 2000, when Button made his debut, only 3 teams have not experienced any name changes or changes in ownership - Williams, Ferrari and McLaren - so team support can be just as fickle...
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Re: 2010 Belgian Grand Prix - Discussion thread
dr-baker wrote:Tombstone wrote:DonTirri wrote:
Well, I like to pick the drivers I support when theyre young so I don't need to change them every other year when they leave the sport
I don't support drivers at all, that way I don't have to chop and change my support ever.
Well, if you go back 10 years to 2000, when Button made his debut, only 3 teams have not experienced any name changes or changes in ownership - Williams, Ferrari and McLaren - so team support can be just as fickle...
I've supported McLaren since 1974.
There was enough 'carry-over' after the Project Four merger to retain my support.
Re: 2010 Belgian Grand Prix - Discussion thread
dr-baker wrote:Well, if you go back 10 years to 2000, when Button made his debut, only 3 teams have not experienced any name changes or changes in ownership - Williams, Ferrari and McLaren - so team support can be just as fickle...
I seem to manage fine when teams change ownership, I just call them by the new name.
Anyway, I've not really rooted for a driver since Damon Hill. Since then I've enjoyed the sport as a whole. I was pleased when Hamilton won but Massa taking the title would've been equally as rewarding. Likewise, had Button lost to Barrichello, who wouldnt like to see Rubens as WDC?
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Re: 2010 Belgian Grand Prix - Discussion thread
coops wrote:Likewise, had Button lost to Barrichello, who wouldnt like to see Rubens as WDC?
Michael Schumacher
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Re: 2010 Belgian Grand Prix - Discussion thread
Wizzie wrote:coops wrote:Likewise, had Button lost to Barrichello, who wouldnt like to see Rubens as WDC?
Michael Schumacher
Thinking about it probably Fernando Alonso too!
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Re: 2010 Belgian Grand Prix - Discussion thread
GwilymJJames wrote:I want to highlight this bit of wishful thinking from the BBC graphics team...
Would that it were BBC; would that it were.
On a different note; does anyone know if the stewards made a decision on the pit-lane incident between (I think) Vettel & Alonso? It said it would be investigated after the race, but I can't see a decision on the FIA website...
It's a shame that the caption is probably too small to work in an avatar!
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Re: 2010 Belgian Grand Prix - Discussion thread
watka wrote:GwilymJJames wrote:I want to highlight this bit of wishful thinking from the BBC graphics team...
Would that it were BBC; would that it were.
On a different note; does anyone know if the stewards made a decision on the pit-lane incident between (I think) Vettel & Alonso? It said it would be investigated after the race, but I can't see a decision on the FIA website...
It's a shame that the caption is probably too small to work in an avatar!
someone should tweet this to him, he'd probably be quite amused
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Re: 2010 Belgian Grand Prix - Discussion thread
patrick wrote:watka wrote:GwilymJJames wrote:I want to highlight this bit of wishful thinking from the BBC graphics team...
Would that it were BBC; would that it were.
On a different note; does anyone know if the stewards made a decision on the pit-lane incident between (I think) Vettel & Alonso? It said it would be investigated after the race, but I can't see a decision on the FIA website...
It's a shame that the caption is probably too small to work in an avatar!
someone should tweet this to him, he'd probably be quite amused
I just did.
Stay home, Colin Kolles!
Re: 2010 Belgian Grand Prix - Discussion thread
Well, that should cheer Chandhok up - he hasn't always had much to smile about this year.
Anyway, what I thought that I'd share is this little clip showing what the first lap was like from Alonso's point of view. It is interesting for a few reasons - firstly, I didn't realise that Sutil's opening lap was so scruffy (he tried to make a pass into Les Combes, and nearly went off instead, and he was very wide on the exit of Stavelot and Paul Frere), and he was lucky that Alonso didn't pass him earlier in the lap (especially because that could well have meant that it would have been Sutil, and not Alonso, that Rubens would have hit).
Secondly, it shows that it wasn't just Vettel who had his gearing reasonably short - although he was slip streaming Sutil, Alonso was unable to pass him because he was also hitting the limiter in 7th gear as they were going through Kemmel. It makes me wonder if, given that the Force India duo could slip stream and take advantage of their prodigious straight line speed, whether Force India had been a bit more clever with their gearing and did make it ever so slightly longer in the expectation that they might need the extra few rpm, should they find themselves in somebody else's wake.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPT_9zacOOg
EDIT: It also looks as if, finally, the FIA have realised that Massa was too far ahead of his grid slot in Belgium - however, because the FIA has now officially declared the results of the race on Sunday evening, no action can be taken against Massa. The reason that nobody took any action at the time is because nobody realised it, according to the FIA - Charlie Whiting did not see the incident, and none of the teams raised any doubt after the race. In addition, the electronic sensors on the grid did not pick up the problem, because they are not designed to sense where the car is, but the relative motion of the car (i.e. they are designed to prevent people jumping the start, not whether they are in the right place to begin with). At least, on the plus side, the FIA have announced that they are launching an investigation into why Massa's error was not spotted at the time, and should prevent such mistakes happening again. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86327
Still, I must admit that the idea that Charlie failed to spot that Massa was out of position is a little odd - after all, a number of commentators spotted it immediately, and Charlie should, in theory, have just as good a vantage point as them, if not better. It is even more peculiar when you realise that there were a number of marshalls on the same side of the track as Massa, helping the drivers find their grid box (in fact, there is one directly alongside Massa), yet none of those marshalls noticed that Massa was out of place?
Now, I shall subscribe to the saying that "Never ascribe to malice what cannot be explained by incompetence" - I do not believe that the stewards or race control would wilfully ignore Massa' mistake, nor that Massa deliberately overshot his grid slot. I can accept that the teams and other drivers, concerned by the rain falling at the time, were probably too preoccupied with their own race to notice Massa (and the pit wall was fairly empty by that time anyway, as most of the mechanics had returned to their pits). Still, why didn't any of the marshalls - especially those right next to Massa - notice what had happened, and think about getting onto race control about it? There might have been some improvements in stewarding and race control, but it seems that there are still quite a few improvements which need to be made.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfyHfXhY ... r_embedded
Anyway, what I thought that I'd share is this little clip showing what the first lap was like from Alonso's point of view. It is interesting for a few reasons - firstly, I didn't realise that Sutil's opening lap was so scruffy (he tried to make a pass into Les Combes, and nearly went off instead, and he was very wide on the exit of Stavelot and Paul Frere), and he was lucky that Alonso didn't pass him earlier in the lap (especially because that could well have meant that it would have been Sutil, and not Alonso, that Rubens would have hit).
Secondly, it shows that it wasn't just Vettel who had his gearing reasonably short - although he was slip streaming Sutil, Alonso was unable to pass him because he was also hitting the limiter in 7th gear as they were going through Kemmel. It makes me wonder if, given that the Force India duo could slip stream and take advantage of their prodigious straight line speed, whether Force India had been a bit more clever with their gearing and did make it ever so slightly longer in the expectation that they might need the extra few rpm, should they find themselves in somebody else's wake.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPT_9zacOOg
EDIT: It also looks as if, finally, the FIA have realised that Massa was too far ahead of his grid slot in Belgium - however, because the FIA has now officially declared the results of the race on Sunday evening, no action can be taken against Massa. The reason that nobody took any action at the time is because nobody realised it, according to the FIA - Charlie Whiting did not see the incident, and none of the teams raised any doubt after the race. In addition, the electronic sensors on the grid did not pick up the problem, because they are not designed to sense where the car is, but the relative motion of the car (i.e. they are designed to prevent people jumping the start, not whether they are in the right place to begin with). At least, on the plus side, the FIA have announced that they are launching an investigation into why Massa's error was not spotted at the time, and should prevent such mistakes happening again. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86327
Still, I must admit that the idea that Charlie failed to spot that Massa was out of position is a little odd - after all, a number of commentators spotted it immediately, and Charlie should, in theory, have just as good a vantage point as them, if not better. It is even more peculiar when you realise that there were a number of marshalls on the same side of the track as Massa, helping the drivers find their grid box (in fact, there is one directly alongside Massa), yet none of those marshalls noticed that Massa was out of place?
Now, I shall subscribe to the saying that "Never ascribe to malice what cannot be explained by incompetence" - I do not believe that the stewards or race control would wilfully ignore Massa' mistake, nor that Massa deliberately overshot his grid slot. I can accept that the teams and other drivers, concerned by the rain falling at the time, were probably too preoccupied with their own race to notice Massa (and the pit wall was fairly empty by that time anyway, as most of the mechanics had returned to their pits). Still, why didn't any of the marshalls - especially those right next to Massa - notice what had happened, and think about getting onto race control about it? There might have been some improvements in stewarding and race control, but it seems that there are still quite a few improvements which need to be made.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfyHfXhY ... r_embedded
Martin Brundle, on watching a replay of Grosjean spinning:
"The problem with Grosjean is that he want to take a look back at the corner he's just exited"
"The problem with Grosjean is that he want to take a look back at the corner he's just exited"
Re: 2010 Belgian Grand Prix - Discussion thread
My opinion is that Massa deserves to be punished for the next race. You can't do a thing like that and get away with it, just like Hamilton's SC overtake in Valencia. F1 officialdom sucks balls. This is pathetic and intolerable in the biggest echelon of motorsport.