Grand Prix Rejects

eurobrun wrote:

Belegur wrote:

Bianchi's inexperience, though, would almost certainly rule that out - Ferrari hasn't hired a rookie since the 1970's, IIRC, and if Perez is considered inexperienced enough for Ferrari then Bianchi should surely be out of the question.

Minor point, but wasn't Alesi relatively inexperienced when Ferrari signed him? Likewise Johansson?

Alesi had 1 and a half seaaons experience with Tyrell when Ferrari hired him. So he wasn't that experienced.

Key word there is relatively, chief. Although, didn't Ferrari try and sign Raikkonen for 2002, back when he only had a year's experience?

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:

eurobrun wrote:

Belegur wrote:Minor point, but wasn't Alesi relatively inexperienced when Ferrari signed him? Likewise Johansson?

Alesi had 1 and a half seaaons experience with Tyrell when Ferrari hired him. So he wasn't that experienced.

Key word there is relatively, chief. Although, didn't Ferrari try and sign Raikkonen for 2002, back when he only had a year's experience?

They were interested in him until McLaren snubbed Heidfeld and nicked Raikkonen from under their noses.

Really? I never knew that. I always assumed he'd be at McLaren when the rumours started.

AdrianSutil wrote:Really? I never knew that. I always assumed he'd be at McLaren when the rumours started.

Yeah. It's even mentioned in the 2001 F1 Rejects season review if my memory is correct

AdrianSutil wrote:I know the world of F1 and especially this website will explode with delirium if Perez signs for Ferrari next year, but I have this awful feeling he will be immediately turned into another infamous Ferrari number 2. And I don't want to see that. Ever.

Since 1995, I can think of only two seasons where Ferrari let their drivers do what they wanted on the track (ie no obvious team orders), 2007 and 2008. Even then it was still in Ferrari's best interests to have the Championship-fighting car 'conveniently' emerge from the pits ahead of their teammate.

I don't think Ferrari will ever change, unless they hire two different drivers for the same year.

To be fair though in those two seasons it was only after one driver (Massa in '07 and Kimi in '08) dropped out of title contention. They "let" Massa win Turkey 2007 being quite late in the season, and Kimi was pretty brutal with Massa in the early stages of Spa 2008.

It was similar in 2009 too, at least for the first half of the season until Massa's replacements couldn't even get near Kimi!!!

I think Kobayashi would be a fantastic driver at Ferrari and we need a Japanese driver at a top team.

I don't remember Kimi being considered for Ferrari for 2002. He was strongly seen as next Ferrari driver, when either Schumacher or Barrichello would leave. Well, that didn't exactly happen since it was Massa who replaced Rubens. Kimi moved to Maranello one year later.

That is strange, I had never heard of a vacancy opening up at Ferrari in 2001-2002.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101803

Yes, he needs to stop being shite and score a shedload of podiums before long. Neither of which I can see him doing...

East Londoner wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101803

Yes, he needs to stop being shite and score a shedload of podiums before long. Neither of which I can see him doing...

"AUTOSPORT understands that the Brazilian still has an opportunity to stay on in the second Ferrari race seat for an eighth season, despite the disappointing form that has seen him fail to finish on the podium since the 2010 German Grand Prix."

The 2010 Korean GP. It's rare to spot an error from Autosport

JeremyMcClean wrote:

East Londoner wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101803

Yes, he needs to stop being shite and score a shedload of podiums before long. Neither of which I can see him doing...

"AUTOSPORT understands that the Brazilian still has an opportunity to stay on in the second Ferrari race seat for an eighth season, despite the disappointing form that has seen him fail to finish on the podium since the 2010 German Grand Prix."

The 2010 Korean GP. It's rare to spot an error from Autosport

Especially since it means that they also overlooked Massa's podium finish at the 2010 Italian GP (where he finished in 3rd place), so they haven't just overlooked one podium, they have overlooked two podium finishes since that race.
Still, even allowing for that error, it means that Massa hasn't finished on the podium for 32 races and counting - that is a very long time for a driver in a major team to go without that sort of success, and is all the more glaring considering Alonso's success. He did come reasonably close in the British GP, but that is the closest so far this year he has come to the podium - it is hard to see where else Massa could pick up a podium given his current form and the fact that the F2012 is (arguably) not the best car out there.

That said, the situation is somewhat reminiscent of Senna at Lotus in 1986 and 1987 where his team mates (Dumfries and Nakajima) were chosen because, rather than despite, they were uncompetitive because Senna didn't want a competitive team mate that the team would have to divert resources towards. The situation at Ferrari does seem to bear some similarities in that sense...

mario wrote:That said, the situation is somewhat reminiscent of Senna at Lotus in 1986 and 1987 where his team mates (Dumfries and Nakajima) were chosen because, rather than despite, they were uncompetitive because Senna didn't want a competitive team mate that the team would have to divert resources towards. The situation at Ferrari does seem to bear some similarities in that sense...

If Massa was kept on for 2013, I think that would have been the reason why.

Having said that, It would be great to see Alonso, take on the challenge of a more competitive teammate, than Massa. Which is why I truly hope Alonso wins the championship this season. Just so he would have completed the target of a WDC for Ferrari & would, hopefully, be more willing to accept a better teammate than Massa thereafter.

I recently read something on Autosport about the Ferrari engineer's consider Alonso to be of legendary status. However I fear that unless Alonso accepts another competitive driver (i.e. more competitive than Massa) as his teammate. Then in future people may use that, to argue against Alonso's legendary status. Stating stuff like, well Alonso only ever had poorer teammates & the one time he had an equal teammate, i.e. a rookie Hamilton in 2007, he acted like a spoilt brat.

So if Alonso did accept, fight fairly & beat a very capable teammate. Then Alonso's lengendary status would be even more deserved.

mario wrote:He did come reasonably close in the British GP, but that is the closest so far this year he has come to the podium - it is hard to see where else Massa could pick up a podium given his current form and the fact that the F2012 is (arguably) not the best car out there.

Perhaps Brazil, considering Massa's previous success there. Although, should Massa be running ahead of Alonso in the final few races. It is likely that Ferrari will order Massa to give up that place to his teammate. Therefore making the possibility of a podium even harder for Massa.

Personally I wonder whether the Alonso "is faster than you" / Ferrari, situation is destroying Massa's confidence & believe in himself a bit too much?

Therefore I wonder whether it would be in Massa's best interests to leave Ferrari at the end of this season, go to somewhere like Sauber, whom he drove for previously, or Williams. I mean considering his current form, this wouldn't be such a massive step backwards. However Massa could build a team around him, being the no.1 driver which might allow him to rediscover his confidence & therefore the ability he showed in 2008.

ibsey wrote:

mario wrote:He did come reasonably close in the British GP, but that is the closest so far this year he has come to the podium - it is hard to see where else Massa could pick up a podium given his current form and the fact that the F2012 is (arguably) not the best car out there.

Perhaps Brazil, considering Massa's previous success there. Although, should Massa be running ahead of Alonso in the final few races. It is likely that Ferrari will order Massa to give up that place to his teammate. Therefore making the possibility of a podium even harder for Massa.

Personally I wonder whether the Alonso "is faster than you" / Ferrari, situation is destroying Massa's confidence & believe in himself a bit too much?

Therefore I wonder whether it would be in Massa's best interests to leave Ferrari at the end of this season, go to somewhere like Sauber, whom he drove for previously, or Williams. I mean considering his current form, this wouldn't be such a massive step backwards. However Massa could build a team around him, being the no.1 driver which might allow him to rediscover his confidence & therefore the ability he showed in 2008.

Perhaps, though I agree that, unless Alonso were to either definitely have the WDC secured by Brazil or to retire from the race, Massa would probably be expected to defer to Alonso and potentially yield his position if he was running directly ahead of Alonso. Of course, I don't exclude the possibility that Ferrari could get a double podium finish with Alonso finishing ahead of Massa (ensuring that conundrum doesn't occur), although there haven't been that many double podium finishes this year given the increased competition amongst the leading teams (Red Bull, McLaren and Lotus have both recorded double podium finishes, but only one for Red Bull and two apiece for McLaren and Lotus).

Mind you, even though traditionally he has been pretty handy around Interlagos, the past few races haven't really gone Massa's way. OK, in 2010 a botched pit stop saw him out of contention (though he wasn't really that close to the front to begin with anyway), whilst in 2011 he finished a long way behind Alonso even though he was free to race him (from the Korean GP onwards, at least, Massa was given free reign to race Alonso given that neither driver really had that much to race for).

I suppose that one of the few other places that might offer him a chance is Korea (where his last podium finish was) as he has tended to be relatively competitive there - we saw that he was able to fend Alonso off last year during the earlier stages and only finished 10 seconds behind him (and about 13 seconds shy of a podium that year). Again, though, that would probably in turn depend on whether the situation was such that a podium finish for Massa would not hinder Alonso's title bid.

If Ferrari want a passive second seat that leaves Alonso alone, they might as well hire Luigi the baker down the street from the factory and pay him 3,000 lire plus a bowl of pasta every season. The end result would be the same as retaining Massa anyway.

kostas22 wrote:If Ferrari want a passive second seat that leaves Alonso alone, they might as well hire Luigi the baker down the street from the factory and pay him 3,000 lire plus a bowl of pasta every season. The end result would be the same as retaining Massa anyway.

Or, better still, they could hire Luca Badoer

kostas22 wrote:If Ferrari want a passive second seat that leaves Alonso alone, they might as well hire Luigi the baker down the street from the factory and pay him 3,000 lire plus a bowl of pasta every season. The end result would be the same as retaining Massa anyway.

That´s not exactly truth, Ferrari needs a second driver that can actually not consider 5th a good result because said driver needs to score lots of points regularly to win the Constructors championship and, at the same time, make Alonso life easier when it comes to get points from his rivals.

No matter who is in the second Ferrari for 2013 Alonso will retain his undisputed number 1 status.

Aerond wrote:

kostas22 wrote:If Ferrari want a passive second seat that leaves Alonso alone, they might as well hire Luigi the baker down the street from the factory and pay him 3,000 lire plus a bowl of pasta every season. The end result would be the same as retaining Massa anyway.

That´s not exactly truth, Ferrari needs a second driver that can actually not consider 5th a good result because said driver needs to score lots of points regularly to win the Constructors championship and, at the same time, make Alonso life easier when it comes to get points from his rivals.

Exactly - a more competitive driver might create a little more friction within the team, but at the same time having two competitive drivers increases the chances of the team outperforming its rivals in the WCC. Ferrari might be relatively well funded, in part because of favourable terms in the Concorde Agreement, but they are by no means immune to a downturn in funding - so, even if having the reigning WDC in your team is good for generating publicity, maximising their WCC performance is vital too.

Now, in 2010 and 2011 Ferrari were beaten fairly by McLaren and Red Bull fairly handily, but the top three teams were fairly comfortably the fastest three teams - only occasionally would we see a driver from another team break through into the upper positions, and that generally relied on favourable conditions or the car suiting a particular track (e.g. in 2010, that could be Kubica in Monaco or Rosberg at the Chinese GP). Ferrari were effectively guaranteed 3rd in the WCC at the very least because there was a relatively sharp difference in the performance of the top three teams compared to their rivals, so to a certain extent they could get away with Massa not performing at his maximum.
However, although the running order is still reasonably similar these days (much as some may complain about the races being too random, I would argue that they aren't quite as random as some might say and are definitely much more orderly than they were at the start of the season), the key difference is that Lotus are now much more competitive than they've been for the past few years. Part of that is no doubt technical - the recent rule changes have eliminated some of the areas they had fallen behind in - whilst the stabilisation of the team after seeing a number of senior staff poached by other teams and, crucially, a strong driver line up (Grosjean, whilst scruffy at times, looks to have a fair amount of potential, whilst Kimi, after a slightly shaky period, is now coming on quite strongly) has started to turn the team around quite noticeably.

Be that as it may, it is quite possible that we could see a scenario in which Alonso takes the WDC but, because his rivals have in turn maximised their points hauls, Ferrari could be as low as 4th in the WCC (at the moment, Ferrari are currently in that situation - they are three points behind Lotus and four behind McLaren). That slide down to 4th would probably cost Ferrari a noticeable amount of cash, at which point the patience of the team is likely to start wearing very thin.
The only problem is, though, that right now Ferrari have backed themselves into something of a lose-lose situation - either they have to take the hit of having Massa underperform and potentially pay for that in the WCC, or take a risk on a substitute driver who may or may not get along with Alonso and the rest of the team when there aren't that many experienced drivers on the market.

mario wrote:The only problem is, though, that right now Ferrari have backed themselves into something of a lose-lose situation - either they have to take the hit of having Massa underperform and potentially pay for that in the WCC, or take a risk on a substitute driver who may or may not get along with Alonso and the rest of the team when there aren't that many experienced drivers on the market.

That's where Heikki Kovalainen comes in as, from my memory of an autosport article a few months back, his relationship with Caterham is sinking faster than the Titanic. He'd make the perfect number two as he'd probably be happy just to drive for a top team again whilst also being fast enough to finish in the points and on the podium consistently whilst just not having enough ultimate pace to worry the Golden child and Emperor Montezuma on a regular basis

EDIT: And here's the article in question.

Wizzie wrote:

mario wrote:The only problem is, though, that right now Ferrari have backed themselves into something of a lose-lose situation - either they have to take the hit of having Massa underperform and potentially pay for that in the WCC, or take a risk on a substitute driver who may or may not get along with Alonso and the rest of the team when there aren't that many experienced drivers on the market.

That's where Heikki Kovalainen comes in as, from my memory of an autosport article a few months back, his relationship with Caterham is sinking faster than the Titanic. He'd make the perfect number two as he'd probably be happy just to drive for a top team again whilst also being fast enough to finish in the points and on the podium consistently whilst just not having enough ultimate pace to worry the Golden child and Emperor Montezuma on a regular basis

This, he would be perfect for that drive.

eurobrun wrote:

Wizzie wrote:

mario wrote:The only problem is, though, that right now Ferrari have backed themselves into something of a lose-lose situation - either they have to take the hit of having Massa underperform and potentially pay for that in the WCC, or take a risk on a substitute driver who may or may not get along with Alonso and the rest of the team when there aren't that many experienced drivers on the market.

That's where Heikki Kovalainen comes in as, from my memory of an autosport article a few months back, his relationship with Caterham is sinking faster than the Titanic. He'd make the perfect number two as he'd probably be happy just to drive for a top team again whilst also being fast enough to finish in the points and on the podium consistently whilst just not having enough ultimate pace to worry the Golden child and Emperor Montezuma on a regular basis

This, he would be perfect for that drive.

The problem is though, Ferrari seem to be physically incapable of taking a gamble where drivers are concerned of late, so the most likely outcome is that Ferrari run and hide from their driver problems instead of facing them. Allowing Massa to underperform for the rest of the season.

If it's true that Vettel is going to drive for Ferrari in 2014 (and I'll believe that when I see it as Red Bull's his family), then they're in a similar situation to how McLaren were in 1987 after Lauda and Rosberg retired and before they could get Senna on board for 88. (And Alonso now is the equivalent of Prost then).

They basically need another Stefan Johansson - he seemed the perfect number 2 for Prost in 1987, was happy enough with a one-year contract and his steady points collecting helped them to beat Lotus for 2nd in the Constructors even though Senna was 3rd overall.

So Kovalainen would probably fit that desciption of another Johansson. Also Nick Heidfeld would have been good had he still been an active F1 driver but he's probably too rusty now.

I suspect Ferrari are planning on holding onto Massa, and Domenicali's comments about how he knows what he has to do are foreshadowing it so that it's not a compelte shock when they announce it.

Captain Hammer wrote:I suspect Ferrari are planning on holding onto Massa, and Domenicali's comments about how he knows what he has to do are foreshadowing it so that it's not a compelte shock when they announce it.

Massa doesn't deserve that

pasta_maldonado wrote:

Captain Hammer wrote:I suspect Ferrari are planning on holding onto Massa, and Domenicali's comments about how he knows what he has to do are foreshadowing it so that it's not a compelte shock when they announce it.

Massa doesn't deserve that

Wizzie does have a point that Kovalainen might, in theory, be a possible candidate, but the catch there might be his relatively lacklustre performance whilst at McLaren, suggesting that perhaps he might also underperform when placed into a high pressure environment. But because Ferrari seem to have convinced themselves that they have no alternative, the current thinking is that Massa may stay on at Ferrari on a short term contract (perhaps a one year deal) whilst they can line up his successor.

mario wrote:

pasta_maldonado wrote:

Captain Hammer wrote:I suspect Ferrari are planning on holding onto Massa, and Domenicali's comments about how he knows what he has to do are foreshadowing it so that it's not a compelte shock when they announce it.

Massa doesn't deserve that

Wizzie does have a point that Kovalainen might, in theory, be a possible candidate, but the catch there might be his relatively lacklustre performance whilst at McLaren, suggesting that perhaps he might also underperform when placed into a high pressure environment. But because Ferrari seem to have convinced themselves that they have no alternative, the current thinking is that Massa may stay on at Ferrari on a short term contract (perhaps a one year deal) whilst they can line up his successor.

There's always that Mexican with the Sauber cap willing to take on the drive...

Or there's Mark Webber

JeremyMcClean wrote:There's always that Mexican with the Sauber cap willing to take on the drive...

Or there's Mark Webber

Ferrari have already tried to sign Mark Webber, but he (wisely?) decided to extend his contract with Red Bull.

As for Pérez, it's been already discussed he's too inexperienced to be given the drive.

Phoenix wrote:

JeremyMcClean wrote:There's always that Mexican with the Sauber cap willing to take on the drive...

Or there's Mark Webber

Ferrari have already tried to sign Mark Webber, but he (wisely?) decided to extend his contract with Red Bull.

As for Pérez, it's been already discussed he's too inexperienced to be given the drive.

Inexperienced? Is it me or do Ferarri only want 45 year olds to drive their cars?

pasta_maldonado wrote:

Phoenix wrote:

JeremyMcClean wrote:There's always that Mexican with the Sauber cap willing to take on the drive...

Or there's Mark Webber

Ferrari have already tried to sign Mark Webber, but he (wisely?) decided to extend his contract with Red Bull.

As for Pérez, it's been already discussed he's too inexperienced to be given the drive.

Inexperienced? Is it me or do Ferarri only want 45 year olds to drive their cars?

Almost - Montezuma already stated Pérez was not ready yet.

pasta_maldonado wrote:

Phoenix wrote:

JeremyMcClean wrote:There's always that Mexican with the Sauber cap willing to take on the drive...

Or there's Mark Webber

Ferrari have already tried to sign Mark Webber, but he (wisely?) decided to extend his contract with Red Bull.

As for Pérez, it's been already discussed he's too inexperienced to be given the drive.

Inexperienced? Is it me or do Ferarri only want 45 year olds to drive their cars?

Not quite that severe, but Ferrari have very rarely picked a driver with only a couple of seasons under his belt - Perez would be one of the least experienced drivers that Ferrari have chosen since the 1990's. I believe that you would have to go back to somebody like Eddie Irvine to find a driver who only had a couple of seasons under his belt - he had 32 starts to his name when he joined Ferrari, comparable with Perez's 28 starts as of the Hungarian GP.
Ferrari have always been very conservative when choosing their drivers - out of the drivers they have chosen as a front line driver over the past two decades, only Jean Alesi had less starts to his name than Perez does right now (Alesi had 23 starts to his name when he joined Ferrari). It is something of a hangover from Enzo Ferrari's preference for experienced drivers, something that is so embedded into the nature of the team that it would be a fairly large departure from their normal mode of thinking to hire him.

Felipe Massa's F1 stats

Pre accident
Races : 114
Wins : 11
Podiums : 28
Poles : 15
Led laps : 826


Post accident
Races : 50
Wins : 0
Podiums : 5
Poles : 0
Led laps : 52

I'm going to go against the general consensus and say that he just lost his job with today's drive. .3-.4s slower than anyone other than Kobayashi, d'Ambrosio and the backmarkers in the first sector, and that's on every single lap.

Pamphlet wrote:I'm going to go against the general consensus and say that he just lost his job with today's drive. .3-.4s slower than anyone other than Kobayashi, d'Ambrosio and the backmarkers in the first sector, and that's on every single lap.

For once I'd agree with you on the grounds that he'll lose his job. Once half-decent showing doesn't excuse a season and a half or mediocreness

Tell me more? Wasn't he quicker than most drivers on sectors two and three then..?

giraurd wrote:Tell me more? Wasn't he quicker than most drivers on sectors two and three then..?

In sector 2 he only made up one tenth at best, and most of the time he was still slower than Hamilton and Alonso. In sector 3 he was average, he didn't gain anything there at all. He even lost some time there on some occasions.

Point is, comparing sector times is utterly useless given that only laptime counts; the drivers often run differing setups with differences at the car's handling through various types of corner combinations, which - assuming that Massa was one of the drivers to opt for a setup favoring Sectors Two and Three - may explain his relative difficulties compared to his rivals at the Sector One of the Monza circuit.

giraurd wrote:Point is, comparing sector times is utterly useless given that only laptime counts; the drivers often run differing setups with differences at the car's handling through various types of corner combinations, which - assuming that Massa was one of the drivers to opt for a setup favoring Sectors Two and Three - may explain his relative difficulties compared to his rivals at the Sector One of the Monza circuit.

Except that's the point. He didn't make up anywhere near enough time in S2 and S3 to compensate for what he lost in S1. That's why Button caught and passed him. He was slow the entire race.

Yeah, but it doesn't actually matter in which sector the time difference is when the eventual laptime is x seconds slower.

... so where did I put the point again.... ^^

Finnish F1 commentators suggested that Massa had two GPs to prove his worth - Spa and Monza. I personally doubt his showings have been good enough to impress Emperor Montezuma.

giraurd wrote:Yeah, but it doesn't actually matter in which sector the time difference is when the eventual laptime is x seconds slower.

... so where did I put the point again.... ^^

I think you lack one in that case. Mine is that Massa was slow overall and that he lost most of his time in sector 1, and that people shouldn't start being happy for him all of a sudden. Instead, they should be worrying that he hasn't done enough to please Lord Montezuma.

And this is coming from a Massa fan first and foremost.