2013 HWNSNBM'S Hungarian Grand Prix Thread

[takagi_for_the_win]

Which knobhead was it that was banging on about how this is Romain's race?

[Salamander]

Except for Alonso and Ferrari, but nobody cares what they think anyway.

Yeah, because it's not like they have any fans or anything.

A time penalty won't do anything unless it's more than 20 seconds, since Grosjean got one himself for the contact with Button.

[DonTirri]

Except for Alonso and Ferrari, but nobody cares what they think anyway.

Yeah, because it's not like they have any fans or anything.

A time penalty won't do anything unless it's more than 20 seconds, since Grosjean got one himself for the contact with Button.

Alright, I'll fix it. Nobody RELEVANT cares what they think anyway.

[F1000X]

Atta boy Lewis.

[Salamander]

Except for Alonso and Ferrari, but nobody cares what they think anyway.

Yeah, because it's not like they have any fans or anything.

A time penalty won't do anything unless it's more than 20 seconds, since Grosjean got one himself for the contact with Button.

Alright, I'll fix it. Nobody RELEVANT cares what they think anyway.

So I'm irrelevant? Screw you too, buddy.

[DemocalypseNow]

Except for Alonso and Ferrari, but nobody cares what they think anyway.

Yeah, because it's not like they have any fans or anything.

A time penalty won't do anything unless it's more than 20 seconds, since Grosjean got one himself for the contact with Button.

Alright, I'll fix it. Nobody RELEVANT cares what they think anyway.

[mario]

Gentlemen, please try to keep this discussion as civil as possible if you can. DonTirri, I know that you hold rather strong opinions on Alonso and Ferrari, but I would prefer it if you did not intentionally try to bait other posters into angry responses - I know that you feel certain drivers get an undue level of criticism, but that does not make it OK for you to respond in kind towards others (and takagi_for_the_win, there is no need for a personal attack like that towards others either).

[Salamander]

(and takagi_for_the_win, there is no need for a personal attack like that towards others either).

Erm, I think that was a light-hearted jest at the fact that he was championing Grosjean before the race...

[mario]

(and takagi_for_the_win, there is no need for a personal attack like that towards others either).

Erm, I think that was a light-hearted jest at the fact that he was championing Grosjean before the race...

Sorry, I mistook it as provocation to begin with but, upon re-reading this thread I realise my error and that takagi_for_the_win meant to mock himself rather than others - takagi_for_the_win, I hope that you accept my apologies for misinterpreting your comment.

[andrew2209]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109069

How did that happen?

[takagi_for_the_win]

(and takagi_for_the_win, there is no need for a personal attack like that towards others either).

Erm, I think that was a light-hearted jest at the fact that he was championing Grosjean before the race...

Sorry, I mistook it as provocation to begin with but, upon re-reading this thread I realise my error and that takagi_for_the_win meant to mock himself rather than others - takagi_for_the_win, I hope that you accept my apologies for misinterpreting your comment.

Yeah, that was more aimed at myself, given that I had called this to be Grosjeans race at least 4 times prior to the race. Nevertheless, I accept your apology

[mario]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109069

How did that happen?

According to the stewards report, it is because the DRS software program was set to qualifying specification, not race specification, and therefore incorrectly informed Alonso that he could use his DRS during the race (until the team manually overrode the system). The net upshot is that the team has been fined €15,000 for their mistake, with no action being taken against Alonso.

The DRS enabling system was not changed by the team from the pre-race to the race setting. The driver therefore incorrectly received "DRS enabled" messages and reacted to them (when not entitled to) on 3 occasions.
As soon as the team became aware of the problem they informed the driver to only use DRS when told to do so by the team. Whilst a small sporting advantage (less than one second over the entire race) was gained, the team argued Car 3 also suffered a disadvantage by being unable to use DRS on every legitimate occasion. However, the team is ultimately responsible for ensuring the system conforms to the regulations.

[watka]

I could be wrong but I seem to remember in the commentary that Ben Edwards caught Jenson Button using DRS when not being within a second of anyone.

[good_Ralf]

I could be wrong but I seem to remember in the commentary that Ben Edwards caught Jenson Button using DRS when not being within a second of anyone.

I thought a computer wouldn't have allowed him to do that unless he was within the 1 second.

In the end, I think the race was truly decided when Vettel got stuck behind Jenson Button for what seemed like an eternity. He couldn't do anything but Hamilton actually had the balls to do so and he also foiled Red Bull's possible ploy of having Webber hold him up instantly. Hamilton proved today that he can carve through traffic quite well, like Senna and Schumacher.

[Londoner]

I could be wrong but I seem to remember in the commentary that Ben Edwards caught Jenson Button using DRS when not being within a second of anyone.

I think there was a Marussia ahead of him which dived into the pits just after the detection point, from what I saw on the BBC highlights.

[mario]

I could be wrong but I seem to remember in the commentary that Ben Edwards caught Jenson Button using DRS when not being within a second of anyone.

I thought a computer wouldn't have allowed him to do that unless he was within the 1 second.

In the end, I think the race was truly decided when Vettel got stuck behind Jenson Button for what seemed like an eternity. He couldn't do anything but Hamilton actually had the balls to do so and he also foiled Red Bull's possible ploy of having Webber hold him up instantly. Hamilton proved today that he can carve through traffic quite well, like Senna and Schumacher.

It might also be that Vettel reasoned that there was little point in risking a collision - Button is no threat whatsoever to him in the WDC and, from the trio of Hamilton, Alonso and Raikkonen, Hamilton is the one who is furthest behind him in the WCC (being 48 points behind him right now).

Alonso was no threat to Vettel in this race and Kimi, at that point in time, was still behind him - Hamilton, by virtue of only clinging onto the WDC battle by his fingertips and having a decent margin to Webber, is in a position to take risks that Vettel, wanting to manage a lead in the WDC, was probably unwilling to take. Hamilton certainly did get through the traffic rather quickly - though Webber did make a few mistakes that let Hamilton through more easily than perhaps he might have otherwise found it - but Vettel's caution was probably in part from the team tempering his instincts rather than letting him blow a pretty safe podium.

[tristan1117]

I could be wrong but I seem to remember in the commentary that Ben Edwards caught Jenson Button using DRS when not being within a second of anyone.

I thought a computer wouldn't have allowed him to do that unless he was within the 1 second.

In the end, I think the race was truly decided when Vettel got stuck behind Jenson Button for what seemed like an eternity. He couldn't do anything but Hamilton actually had the balls to do so and he also foiled Red Bull's possible ploy of having Webber hold him up instantly. Hamilton proved today that he can carve through traffic quite well, like Senna and Schumacher.

It might also be that Vettel reasoned that there was little point in risking a collision - Button is no threat whatsoever to him in the WDC and, from the trio of Hamilton, Alonso and Raikkonen, Hamilton is the one who is furthest behind him in the WCC (being 48 points behind him right now).

Alonso was no threat to Vettel in this race and Kimi, at that point in time, was still behind him - Hamilton, by virtue of only clinging onto the WDC battle by his fingertips and having a decent margin to Webber, is in a position to take risks that Vettel, wanting to manage a lead in the WDC, was probably unwilling to take. Hamilton certainly did get through the traffic rather quickly - though Webber did make a few mistakes that let Hamilton through more easily than perhaps he might have otherwise found it - but Vettel's caution was probably in part from the team tempering his instincts rather than letting him blow a pretty safe podium.

Well, Vettel did end up colliding with Button (albeit a minor incident), so I'm not sure Seb was being very cautious there. I actually thought Vettel was a tad overaggressive today, considering his championship position (though not from a racing standpoint, the Kimi vs. Vettel Part 2 battle was brilliant). I think that the team was quite nervous as Vettel repeatedly locked up and went wide while trying to pass the Lotus. I understand Vettel not wanting to give up points to Raikkonen, but seven points still gives him a healthy 38 point lead. Then again, maybe he knew that Webber was backing him up so he decided to have a go. And full marks for that!

[PT8475]

I could be wrong but I seem to remember in the commentary that Ben Edwards caught Jenson Button using DRS when not being within a second of anyone.

I thought a computer wouldn't have allowed him to do that unless he was within the 1 second.

In the end, I think the race was truly decided when Vettel got stuck behind Jenson Button for what seemed like an eternity. He couldn't do anything but Hamilton actually had the balls to do so and he also foiled Red Bull's possible ploy of having Webber hold him up instantly. Hamilton proved today that he can carve through traffic quite well, like Senna and Schumacher.

Really? Schumacher was a lot of very good things, but traffic-carver was not one of them.

[AdrianSutil]

Replace Schumacher with Montoya with the above statement.

[CoopsII]

Yeah, that was more aimed at myself, given that I had called this to be Grosjeans race at least 4 times prior to the race. Nevertheless, I accept your apology

Knobhead.

[good_Ralf]

I could be wrong but I seem to remember in the commentary that Ben Edwards caught Jenson Button using DRS when not being within a second of anyone.

I thought a computer wouldn't have allowed him to do that unless he was within the 1 second.

In the end, I think the race was truly decided when Vettel got stuck behind Jenson Button for what seemed like an eternity. He couldn't do anything but Hamilton actually had the balls to do so and he also foiled Red Bull's possible ploy of having Webber hold him up instantly. Hamilton proved today that he can carve through traffic quite well, like Senna and Schumacher.

Really? Schumacher was a lot of very good things, but traffic-carver was not one of them.

I read about Schumacher in a book by Alan Henry - "And, like Senna, he seems to have the uncanny ability to carve his way through traffic."

Montoya a traffic-carver? I never thought of that. I guess he is.

[PT8475]

I thought a computer wouldn't have allowed him to do that unless he was within the 1 second.

In the end, I think the race was truly decided when Vettel got stuck behind Jenson Button for what seemed like an eternity. He couldn't do anything but Hamilton actually had the balls to do so and he also foiled Red Bull's possible ploy of having Webber hold him up instantly. Hamilton proved today that he can carve through traffic quite well, like Senna and Schumacher.

Really? Schumacher was a lot of very good things, but traffic-carver was not one of them.

I read about Schumacher in a book by Alan Henry - "And, like Senna, he seems to have the uncanny ability to carve his way through traffic."

Montoya a traffic-carver? I never thought of that. I guess he is.

No, no, Schumacher rarely risked his car in overtaking on the track - he'd sit and wait for the pitstops which, whilst effective, doesn't really earn him the title of traffic carver, in my opinion.

[James1978]

Just thought of a nice stat - of the current drivers on the grid, the only ones to have won a race for more than one team are the five champions:

Vettel for Toro Rosso and Red Bull
Alonso for Renault, McLaren and Ferrari
Raikkonen for McLaren, Ferrari and Lotus
Button for Honda/Brawn and McLaren
Hamilton for Mclaren and now Mercedes

Whereas the non-champion race winners have only won for one team:

Webber has only won for Red Bull
Massa only won for Ferrari
Rosberg only won for Merceded
Maldonado only won for Williams!!

[good_Ralf]

I read about Schumacher in a book by Alan Henry - "And, like Senna, he seems to have the uncanny ability to carve his way through traffic."

Montoya a traffic-carver? I never thought of that. I guess he is.

No, no, Schumacher rarely risked his car in overtaking on the track - he'd sit and wait for the pitstops which, whilst effective, doesn't really earn him the title of traffic carver, in my opinion.

So if Senna and Montoya were good at getting through traffic, I guess that is a strength in Latin American drivers. As I said, Hamilton can do the same as shown yesterday.

[AdrianSutil]

Well, Hamilton didn't exactly blaze through from P16 or something. He overtook Button on fresher tyres with DRS and overtook Webber because he got baulked by Hulkenberg. Senna and Montoya meanwhile, would carve trough from near the back thanks to a penalty or first-lap incident, making several high-risk but stunning overtakes from nowhere.

Now Hamilton is an aggressive overtaker don't get me wrong, but I can't remember a race where he's had to fight his way through from near-last. Spain 2012 maybe, but that was helped by having the best car by half a second, DRS and having 7/8 backmarkers jump out of the way in the first three laps. After that, he used pitstops to gain most of his positions.

He's a good overtaker when he needs to be, but I'd love to see him come from something like P15 to finish in the podium in the last 10 laps after a SC period. With everyone on the same tyre, KERS failure, ineffective DRS and drivers who don't half-defend their position. That would be something.

[Phoenix]

Say what you want, but Fernando Alonso is the biggest traffic-carver in the field right now. Forget about everyone else.

[PT8475]

Say what you want, but Fernando Alonso is the biggest traffic-carver in the field right now. Forget about everyone else.

Really? Do we have any examples?

Räikkönen, I'd argue - look at his runs to podiums after all those qualifying blowups in 2005. Alonso usually wins through leaders' engine failures, rather than overtakes. In fact quite a lot of the time.

[LionZoo]

No, no, Schumacher rarely risked his car in overtaking on the track - he'd sit and wait for the pitstops which, whilst effective, doesn't really earn him the title of traffic carver, in my opinion.

That isn't exactly true. Schumacher could work his way very rapidly through a field if that's what he needed to do. His sit and wait for the pitstop strategy was typically employed when he was battling near the front of the grid and he knew that he had the speed to put in the extra laps to get him out in 1st after the stops. The real difference is Schumacher was calculating, he only took as much risk as he needed to win, whereas you could tell that Senna would try to pass someone merely for the point of passing someone. Even if it didn't gain him anything and simply involved more risk, Senna wanted to pass because that's just who he was. However, the difference in philosophy shouldn't take away from the fact that when Schumacher needed to go through the field, he had that ability. Unless the driver in front was Jaime Alguersauri...

[PT8475]

No, no, Schumacher rarely risked his car in overtaking on the track - he'd sit and wait for the pitstops which, whilst effective, doesn't really earn him the title of traffic carver, in my opinion.

That isn't exactly true. Schumacher could work his way very rapidly through a field if that's what he needed to do. His sit and wait for the pitstop strategy was typically employed when he was battling near the front of the grid and he knew that he had the speed to put in the extra laps to get him out in 1st after the stops. The real difference is Schumacher was calculating, he only took as much risk as he needed to win, whereas you could tell that Senna would try to pass someone merely for the point of passing someone. Even if it didn't gain him anything and simply involved more risk, Senna wanted to pass because that's just who he was. However, the difference in philosophy shouldn't take away from the fact that when Schumacher needed to go through the field, he had that ability. Unless the driver in front was Jaime Alguersauri...

I'd disagree - for example Japan 2003. He needed to get through the field to ensure his championship was secure, but in the end only made it to 8th including several collisions and incidents with drivers.

[Phoenix]

Say what you want, but Fernando Alonso is the biggest traffic-carver in the field right now. Forget about everyone else.

Really? Do we have any examples?

Räikkönen, I'd argue - look at his runs to podiums after all those qualifying blowups in 2005. Alonso usually wins through leaders' engine failures, rather than overtakes. In fact quite a lot of the time.

Räikkönen, ever since he got back to F1, has made up places mostly thanks to the better tyre degradation characteristics of his Lotuses. Alonso, on the other hand, had to make overtakings on track because he constantly needed to to keep his World Championship hopes alive, because his Ferrari usually didn't have any particular tyre degradation advantage.

[good_Ralf]

We should just type up a list of drivers that can get past traffic almost flawlessly.

[Alextrax52]

We should just type up a list of drivers that can get past traffic almost flawlessly.

No. A better list would be discussing who's the best at wheel to wheel combat which hands down are Mark Webber and Lewis Hamilton. For me Charles Pic is the worst at getting out of the way. He just takes an age to heed blue flags with notable examples being Spain last year and Hungary this year.

[good_Ralf]

For me Charles Pic is the worst at getting out of the way. He just takes an age to heed blue flags with notable examples being Spain last year and Hungary this year.

Olivier Groulliard also deserves a mention.

And Kiesa was the exact opposite of Pic. On debut he nearly took out M Schumacher, Alonso and Montoya in separate incidents. The order had he survived would have been something like 1) Coulthard, 2) Trulli, 3) Panis

[PT8475]

Barrichello was always half decent at coming back through traffic, certainly Raikkonen less so since his comeback, but definitely in his first career. Hamilton and Webber definitely, too.

[dr-baker]

Button's not bad at cutting through the field, is he? (When the car isn't a dog like this year's McLaren).

[good_Ralf]

Button's not bad at cutting through the field, is he? (When the car isn't a dog like this year's McLaren).

I'm not too sure. Canada 2011 was a prime example, but given the conditions which Jenson excels in, he was assisted to some degree.
Spain 2010 was evident of how Button cannot get past cars, as he spent the almost whole race stuck behind M. Schumacher.

[FullMetalJack]

Button's not bad at cutting through the field, is he? (When the car isn't a dog like this year's McLaren).

I'm not too sure. Canada 2011 was a prime example, but given the conditions which Jenson excels in, he was assisted to some degree.
Spain 2010 was evident of how Button cannot get past cars, as he spent the almost whole race stuck behind M. Schumacher.

Italy 2011, I remember Button taking just a couple of corners to pass Schumacher when Hamilton took forever to pass him.

[good_Ralf]

Button's not bad at cutting through the field, is he? (When the car isn't a dog like this year's McLaren).

I'm not too sure. Canada 2011 was a prime example, but given the conditions which Jenson excels in, he was assisted to some degree.
Spain 2010 was evident of how Button cannot get past cars, as he spent the almost whole race stuck behind M. Schumacher.

Italy 2011, I remember Button taking just a couple of corners to pass Schumacher when Hamilton took forever to pass him.

That was good. Then again, Schumacher, knowing the McLaren's were faster, could have held up Hamilton (his effective successor remember) deliberately, but when Button came along, he just let him through.

[takagi_for_the_win]

Button's not bad at cutting through the field, is he? (When the car isn't a dog like this year's McLaren).

I'm not too sure. Canada 2011 was a prime example, but given the conditions which Jenson excels in, he was assisted to some degree.
Spain 2010 was evident of how Button cannot get past cars, as he spent the almost whole race stuck behind M. Schumacher.

Brazil 2009. Boom.

And to a lesser extent, Hungary 2006 and Germany 2004 to name just two.

[Salamander]

Spain 2010 was evident of how Button cannot get past cars, as he spent the almost whole race stuck behind M. Schumacher.

Yes, because Catalunya is very well known for it's abundance of overtaking opportunities, as was evidenced by the ultra-exciting 1999 Spanish Grand Prix.