Grand Prix Rejects

dr-baker wrote:

pi314159 wrote:I guess it belongs into this thread: I don't miss tobacco sponsorship at all.

Neither do I.

But this WILLbe unpopular: I am more of a fan of Bruno Senna now than I was of Ayrton before he joined Williams in 1994.

Bruno is nothing special about, but i think i would have disliked ayrton if i followed F1 back then. Just don't like his personality. Then again, there would be lots of drivers from that era that i would dislike for similar reasons.

I would quite happily punch anyone who thinks that Schumacher should've won the 1997 title in the face.

darkapprentice77 wrote:I would quite happily punch anyone who thinks that Schumacher should've won the 1997 title in the face.

I don't think Villeneuve really deserved it as much as Schumacher - he should've walked the title with that Williams. So, how about Coulthard or Alesi?

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:

darkapprentice77 wrote:I would quite happily punch anyone who thinks that Schumacher should've won the 1997 title in the face.

I don't think Villeneuve really deserved it as much as Schumacher - he should've walked the title with that Williams. So, how about Coulthard or Alesi?

I would accept either of them.

darkapprentice77 wrote:

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:

darkapprentice77 wrote:I would quite happily punch anyone who thinks that Schumacher should've won the 1997 title in the face.

I don't think Villeneuve really deserved it as much as Schumacher - he should've walked the title with that Williams. So, how about Coulthard or Alesi?

I would accept either of them.

I would personally prefer Hakkinen instead.

New unpopular opinion: The new 2014 regulations will reduce the teams and engines rather than increasing it.

FMecha wrote:
New unpopular opinion: The new 2014 regulations will reduce the teams and engines rather than increasing it.

Yep, I'm thinking the same. Can't see Cosworth building an engine, and the gap between the tail end teams will drift further back due to having to split resource time.

HonoraryNortherner wrote:

FMecha wrote:
New unpopular opinion: The new 2014 regulations will reduce the teams and engines rather than increasing it.

Yep, I'm thinking the same. Can't see Cosworth building an engine, and the gap between the tail end teams will drift further back due to having to split resource time.

agreed

darkapprentice77 wrote:I would quite happily punch anyone who thinks that Schumacher should've won the 1997 title in the face.

He didn't deserve it because of European grand prix crash. But I don't think, considering all the rest of the championship, he deserved it less than Villeneuve. Anyway Villeneuve did a really good season (one of the few good seasons of his career).

Sunshine_Baby_[IT] wrote:

darkapprentice77 wrote:I would quite happily punch anyone who thinks that Schumacher should've won the 1997 title in the face.

He didn't deserve it because of European grand prix crash. But I don't think, considering all the rest of the championship, he deserved it less than Villeneuve. Anyway Villeneuve did a really good season (one of the few good seasons of his career).

He had quite a few, I think. The only thing is that he was dragging crap boxes along and people got that wrong perception that he should be driving the wheels off his car and doing far better than what was possible. That and the fact that he wasn't his father ended up killing is career. Actually, he wasn't doing that bad against Heidfeld, who I keep thinking that was the most underrated driver of the last decade. Heidfeld won the battle with most of his team-mates except Timo Glock, in the three races they did together, Kubica, in only one of the three season they made at BMW and Kamui Kobayashi in the races they made for Sauber (let's not forget here that Nick only did the last races and was getting up to speed when the season ended). In turn Heidfeld was at the receiving end of another injustice last year. I can only imagine that, had he stayed on this season, Lotus would have much more points that those they got.

darkapprentice77 wrote:I would quite happily punch anyone who thinks that Schumacher should've won the 1997 title in the face.

I think Schumacher clearly deserved the 97 title, move at Jerez nonwithstanding

Group Enstone Lotus have a better driver line up than McLaren. No contest.

TheBigJ wrote:Group Enstone Lotus have a better driver line up than McLaren. No contest.

Yeah, although Button and Raikkonen would be better than Raikkonen and Grosjean

HonoraryNortherner wrote:

FMecha wrote:
New unpopular opinion: The new 2014 regulations will reduce the teams and engines rather than increasing it.

Yep, I'm thinking the same. Can't see Cosworth building an engine, and the gap between the tail end teams will drift further back due to having to split resource time.

This sounds like an unpopular opinion more because it goes against what we would like to see - an expansion of the grid and an increase in competition - rather than the comment itself, since I would also strongly agree that the new regulations are likely to decrease the number of engine suppliers and potentially the number of teams (several teams are already somewhat financially stretched, let alone for 2014 when engine costs are increasing sharply).

Unless Cosworth can find manufacturer support - which is probably quite unlikely - it is probably a given that they will withdraw at the end of 2013 (they might have a conceptual design on paper, but given that Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault are putting their engines through dyno testing they are some way behind those outfits), leaving just Renault, Ferrari and Mercedes. Looking at the major manufacturers out there, the only one that is rumoured to be considering an F1 spec turbo engine in the near future is Honda (according to Racecar Engineering), although there is still some uncertainty over whether it is a serious project or a development exercise for their engineers and a test bed for their next generation of Formula Nippon engines.

TheBigJ wrote:Group Enstone Lotus have a better driver line up than McLaren. No contest.

If Kimi is able to retain his motivation across the entire season, I would agree, as I think that Kimi is probably has the edge over Button (I am a little less certain about how things would play out between Perez and Grosjean). However, if something were to happen that lead to Kimi's motivation dropping next year, then I think that things would not be quite so clear cut.

mario wrote:
(I am a little less certain about how things would play out between Perez and Grosjean).

probably in a wall someware

I think the McLaren line-up is one of the weakest for 2013, in terms of top-teams. This is the first time Button will be a clear team-leader since his time with Sato and Honda and Perez is a one-seasoned rookie. RedBull, Ferrari and Lotus are clearly more in-tune with their drivers having at least one season together (Lotus) and several (Ferrari and RedBull). Mercedes have a fourth-year Rosberg and experienced Hamilton. The midfield? Force India have continuity in Di Resta. Sauber? Hulkenberg has been around for a few years even if Gutierrez is a complete rookie so I'd put Sauber's at the second-weakest in the field. Williams have a third-year Maldonado. Toro Rosso have kept the same line-up again. The backmarkers? Well a second-year Pic trumps debutant Chilton. But it depends who Caterham get Compared to Glock (multi-year Marussia experience). So in short:

Weakest top-team: McLaren
Strongest top-team: Ferrari
Weakest midfield team: Sauber
Strongest midfield team: Force India (if they sign Sutil). If not, Toro Rosso.
Weakest backmarker: Probably Caterham
Strongest backmarker: Obviously Marussia as HRT are sadly no more.

DanielPT wrote:

Sunshine_Baby_[IT] wrote:

darkapprentice77 wrote:I would quite happily punch anyone who thinks that Schumacher should've won the 1997 title in the face.

He didn't deserve it because of European grand prix crash. But I don't think, considering all the rest of the championship, he deserved it less than Villeneuve. Anyway Villeneuve did a really good season (one of the few good seasons of his career).

He had quite a few, I think. The only thing is that he was dragging crap boxes along and people got that wrong perception that he should be driving the wheels off his car and doing far better than what was possible. That and the fact that he wasn't his father ended up killing is career. Actually, he wasn't doing that bad against Heidfeld, who I keep thinking that was the most underrated driver of the last decade. Heidfeld won the battle with most of his team-mates except Timo Glock, in the three races they did together, Kubica, in only one of the three season they made at BMW and Kamui Kobayashi in the races they made for Sauber (let's not forget here that Nick only did the last races and was getting up to speed when the season ended). In turn Heidfeld was at the receiving end of another injustice last year. I can only imagine that, had he stayed on this season, Lotus would have much more points that those they got.

I'm not saying that Villeneuve's following season were always shite or that he was always overperformed by his team mates. I'm just saying I think he wasn't as good as you should expect that a former world champion could be.

Eau Rouge should be revised to slightly slow down the cars so it takes big balls to take it flat out again.

Aerond wrote:Eau Rouge should be revised to slightly slow down the cars so it takes big balls to take it flat out again.

As long as you don't put a chicane right in front of it, you should be fine...

JeremyMcClean wrote:

Aerond wrote:Eau Rouge should be revised to slightly slow down the cars so it takes big balls to take it flat out again.

As long as you don't put a chicane right in front of it, you should be fine...

No, I mean more the Right-Left part of it.

Aerond wrote:Eau Rouge should be revised to slightly slow down the cars so it takes big balls to take it flat out again.

The should just stick a nice gravel trap on the left hand side at the top of the hill where the cars normally run over the tarmac run-off. That will keep them on their best behaviour!

JeremyMcClean wrote:

Aerond wrote:Eau Rouge should be revised to slightly slow down the cars so it takes big balls to take it flat out again.

As long as you don't put a chicane right in front of it, you should be fine...

I watched the first qualifying session from 1994 on YouTube yesterday. A shame that crappy chicane was there, especially as it was a wet session.

Aerond wrote:Eau Rouge should be revised to slightly slow down the cars so it takes big balls to take it flat out again.

Let them drive downhill, it takes a lot more balls to do that. That would require an endless amount of run-off probably, so it wouldn't exacly be safe...

AndreaModa wrote:

Aerond wrote:Eau Rouge should be revised to slightly slow down the cars so it takes big balls to take it flat out again.

The should just stick a nice gravel trap on the left hand side at the top of the hill where the cars normally run over the tarmac run-off. That will keep them on their best behaviour!

Wasn't the gravel trap replaced because Jacques Villeneuve kept finding new ways to have a massive accident there to begin with?

Speaking of Villeneuve, 2006 was ironically one of the few years since 1997 where he didn't deserve to get the sack, as he was probably the faster of the two BMW drivers. Problem is Heidfeld is like a bloody Sherman tank where he just keeps finishing every race and picking up other people's scraps

Aerond wrote:Eau Rouge should be revised to slightly slow down the cars so it takes big balls to take it flat out again.

That would be difficult to achieve - Eau Rouge has been a flat out corner for decades, even for the relatively slow cars at the back of the grid. It is why most of the drivers say that Pouhon is the most difficult corner on the circuit as it is almost, but not quite, possible to take it flat out.

Wizzie wrote:Speaking of Villeneuve, 2006 was ironically one of the few years since 1997 where he didn't deserve to get the sack, as he was probably the faster of the two BMW drivers. Problem is Heidfeld is like a bloody Sherman tank where he just keeps finishing every race and picking up other people's scraps

Well, Kubica deserved his chance and it was clear who was the one from the original pair who had to go. Oh, and Heidfeld had 3 DNFs compared to Villeneuve's 4, the car failures were 2-2. When both of them finished a race, it was 5-2 for Heidfeld.

In my view, as Villeneuve already didn't deserve that seat in the first place he needed something really extra ti keep it - he didn't deliver.

AdrianSutil wrote:I think the McLaren line-up is one of the weakest for 2013, in terms of top-teams. This is the first time Button will be a clear team-leader since his time with Sato and Honda and Perez is a one-seasoned rookie. RedBull, Ferrari and Lotus are clearly more in-tune with their drivers having at least one season together (Lotus) and several (Ferrari and RedBull). Mercedes have a fourth-year Rosberg and experienced Hamilton. The midfield? Force India have continuity in Di Resta. Sauber? Hulkenberg has been around for a few years even if Gutierrez is a complete rookie so I'd put Sauber's at the second-weakest in the field. Williams have a third-year Maldonado. Toro Rosso have kept the same line-up again. The backmarkers? Well a second-year Pic trumps debutant Chilton. But it depends who Caterham get Compared to Glock (multi-year Marussia experience). So in short:

Weakest top-team: McLaren
Strongest top-team: Ferrari
Weakest midfield team: Sauber
Strongest midfield team: Force India (if they sign Sutil). If not, Toro Rosso.
Weakest backmarker: Probably Caterham
Strongest backmarker: Obviously Marussia as HRT are sadly no more.

Coming back to this point, if Massa were to perform from the start of 2013 in the same way that he performed during the latter half of the 2012 season, I would agree that, on balance, Ferrari's line up for 2013 would be one of the stronger ones out there, in part because I believe that Massa is capable of being a stronger supporting driver (considering that the lead drivers in the leading teams are probably fairly evenly matched).

Over at Red Bull, Webber's performance in the latter half of 2012 was the weakest out of the top three teams (and second weakest out of the top eight drivers in the WDC - only Grosjean scored fewer points over the latter half of the season), such that Massa easily had the measure of him. It seems to be that whereas Massa was able to improve his set up work in the latter half of the year, Mark seemed to end up going the other way and finding himself struggling with his set ups (and paying the price for that at times with worse tyre wear than his rivals), although his mechanical problems didn't help either.

At Lotus, Grosjean has managed to secure his seat for one more year and giving some sense of continuity to the team, but the pressure is going to be on him to cut down on his errors and become more consistent, because his tendency for clashes on track cost him and the team fairly heavily in the end (whereas once Massa was able to find a way to set the car up to his linking, his consistency was pretty good in the latter half of the year). He has potential, no doubt, but struggles at times to utilise it

McLaren is an interesting situation - Perez's form in the latter half of the season has put him under scrutiny and pressure, whilst I guess it remains to be seen whether Button can live up to his expectations of being able to lead the team in 2013. Perez's inexperience could well be a problem for him, and the tendency of Button to get in difficulty with his set ups will be something that hangs over the team - if the two work together well and Button doesn't have a repeat of his set up problems, McLaren could potentially do well, but equally it could go badly wrong if both drivers end up going the wrong way on set ups.

That said, the Mercedes team have a pretty decent line up for 2013 - although Hamilton may be temperamental at times, he can also perform very well when he is in the right mindset, whilst Rosberg is said to be technically astute (the engineers at Williams reportedly held him in high regard after he recorded a record score in their Engineering Aptitude Test). Both drivers are relatively experienced too (110 and 128 entries respectively), Rosberg provides continuity and Hamilton will not be entirely unfamiliar with Mercedes thanks to McLaren's engine deal with Mercedes, so as an overall package I might be tempted to nominate the Mercedes team ahead of Ferrari as having the best line up - although the fact that they have struggled to turn out a decent car in the past few years means that they're going to need the strongest line up they can get.

As for the midfield, Sauber probably do have a weaker line up thanks to Gutierrez's inexperience, whilst Hulkenberg isn't massively experienced either (he has virtually the same level of experience as Perez (39 starts to 37 for Perez)). Force India, if they have Sutil, would have one of the more experienced line ups for 2013, although neither driver is noted for their development skills; as for Toro Rosso, although both drivers now have more experience under their belts, the one disadvantage they have is that only one driver qualifies well whilst the other races well. They all have their flaws, but Force India might end up having the strongest line up by default.

At the back, Marussia's line up is not bad (Chilton may be a rookie but he has shown promise in junior series); Caterham have the advantage of Pic's experience (and sponsors), but given that the team are likely to need a second pay driver, Petrov may well be in the frame there ahead of Kovalainen (and I would say that Glock is probably a better driver than Petrov if his motivation remains high). Marussia probably have the slightly better driver line up, albeit the slightly weaker financial position - nevertheless, here's hoping that they can pressure Caterham at least.

QuickYoda41 wrote:

Wizzie wrote:Speaking of Villeneuve, 2006 was ironically one of the few years since 1997 where he didn't deserve to get the sack, as he was probably the faster of the two BMW drivers. Problem is Heidfeld is like a bloody Sherman tank where he just keeps finishing every race and picking up other people's scraps

Well, Kubica deserved his chance and it was clear who was the one from the original pair who had to go. Oh, and Heidfeld had 3 DNFs compared to Villeneuve's 4, the car failures were 2-2. When both of them finished a race, it was 5-2 for Heidfeld.

In my view, as Villeneuve already didn't deserve that seat in the first place he needed something really extra ti keep it - he didn't deliver.

Well, he was a lot stronger in 2006 than he was in 2005. In 05, he was aced by Massa more often than not, while in 06, he kept Heidfeld honest, and raced quite decently IMO

Kamui will retire from the sport next year.

FMecha wrote:Kamui deserves to be forced into retirement from the sport next year.

Fixed.

TheBigJ wrote:

FMecha wrote:Kamui deserves to be forced into retirement from the sport next year.

Fixed.

Ooof, now that is an unpopular opinion.

East Londoner wrote:

TheBigJ wrote:

FMecha wrote:Kamui deserves to be forced into retirement from the sport next year.

Fixed.

Ooof, now that is an unpopular opinion.

Take Suzuka out of the equation and I really don't see why he should stay in the sport. He got beaten by the overrated pay driver after all.

IMO,Kamui had one of his best seasons ever,finishing fourth at one race(I think Valencia,cannot remember) and obviously that podium in Japan.Add to the fact that on any other given year,those results deserve a promotion to at least a slightly higher team like Mercedes.Furthermore,everyone within a fifty-mile range could hear those 'KAMUI!' chants in the crowd,in what was probably the most awesome moment of the year for me.Just goes to show that he is now the darling of the Japanese F1 crowd,and that if he were to retire,they would have no one else to cheer.

I miss Fisichella in F1.

darkapprentice77 wrote:I miss Fisichella in F1.

I miss the Fisichella that was able to plonk a Force India on pole. I don't miss the Fisichella that had trouble passing JV.

darkapprentice77 wrote:I miss Fisichella in F1.

Me too. Me too.

Based on Narain Karthikeyan's NASCAR foray last year, I would say most NASCAR drivers even in the Camping World Truck Series could be decent enough to outrun him. The problem is that maybe a dozen of NASCAR's drivers have the funds and talent to make it big in F1 if they so decided to. And out of those, only two or three are young enough to be viable as the likes of Jeff Gordon are too old (as in Barrichello type old). As a result, the best drivers from the US go to NASCAR because it cost less to be an owner-driver (see Tony Stewart and Joe Nemechek) in NASCAR than it does to get a ride in a HRT or Marussia.

Onxy Wrecked wrote:Based on Narain Karthikeyan's NASCAR foray last year, I would say most NASCAR drivers even in the Camping World Truck Series could be decent enough to outrun him. The problem is that maybe a dozen of NASCAR's drivers have the funds and talent to make it big in F1 if they so decided to. And out of those, only two or three are young enough to be viable as the likes of Jeff Gordon are too old (as in Barrichello type old). As a result, the best drivers from the US go to NASCAR because it cost less to be an owner-driver (see Tony Stewart and Joe Nemechek) in NASCAR than it does to get a ride in a HRT or Marussia.

I think it's more due to NASCAR being so different from F1 that it's really hard to adjust. Take Montoya or any F1 driver who's moved to DTM.

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:

Onxy Wrecked wrote:Based on Narain Karthikeyan's NASCAR foray last year, I would say most NASCAR drivers even in the Camping World Truck Series could be decent enough to outrun him. The problem is that maybe a dozen of NASCAR's drivers have the funds and talent to make it big in F1 if they so decided to. And out of those, only two or three are young enough to be viable as the likes of Jeff Gordon are too old (as in Barrichello type old). As a result, the best drivers from the US go to NASCAR because it cost less to be an owner-driver (see Tony Stewart and Joe Nemechek) in NASCAR than it does to get a ride in a HRT or Marussia.

I think it's more due to NASCAR being so different from F1 that it's really hard to adjust. Take Montoya or any F1 driver who's moved to DTM.

Still Montoya was able to charge from 32nd to a win at Sonoma's Infineon Raceway as a rookie and has contended for wins on ovals. Karthikeyan has been a backmarker in F1 and barely in front of the non-start and park backmarkers in NASCAR's 3rd series. The driving style may be very different, but Juan Montoya contends for a few wins in odd numbered years (the EGR Chevys seem to be bad in even years as they're either down on power, ill handling, or both) in NASCAR and his teammate Jamie McMurray did little better and often worse with the Earnhardt-Ganassi Chevys given even more experience and identical equipment. The problem is that Joe Nemechek can run 36 races over every place in the US from California to New Hampshire in a NASCAR off of the money he gets to start the race for less than it takes to get a seat as a pay driver in F1, and Joe Nemechek hasn't been a serious contender for any winning for about a decade now and is a backmarker to midfield driver depending on if he is willing to run the car the full distance. I wouldn't say that every driver in NASCAR could make it and succeed in F1; I am just saying that the quality of the backmarker drivers is mediocre even for NASCAR standards. Narain could barely finish more than 5 to 10 positions in front of Norm Benning, a 60 year old driver known for being a backmarker who would be worthy of a NASCAR rejects profile as Benning has never finished above 17th in a race and using the F1 rejects criteria, a pair of top 10s would have saved him (10 out of 43 is nearly identical to 6 of 24).

Nelson Piquet Jr. deserves more a F1 seat than Di Resta, Rosberg and Senna.

Dj_bereta wrote:Nelson Piquet Jr. deserves more a F1 seat than Di Resta, Rosberg and Senna.

With Di Resta and Senna I can see your point but Rosberg? I have absolutely no idea what you were smoking there