Grand Prix Rejects

Wizzie wrote:1. What if Christian Fittipaldi got the second McLaren seat for 1995 at the request of Mercedes?
2. What if Williams lost their case at the C.R.B over David Coulthard?
3. What if, by some sheer miracle, the Mansell/McLaren relationship managed to hold together for the entire 1995 season?

1 - He wouldve had a difficult season and faced an uncertain future once Coulthard replaced him. There were no decent seats available in 1996 so the best he couldve hoped for was a return to the back with Minardi perhaps.
2 - Mansell back at Williams? Hard to believe but possible. Perhaps Villenueve would've switched a year early but more likely JCB would've done a Hill and lucked into a massive opportunity at Saubers expense.
3 - The 1996 Mclaren still wasnt a race winner so I doubt Mansell would've stuck it for another year. I think he'd have stopped after the 95 season anyway. Unless Jo Ramirez killed him first...

Cynon wrote:
Dale Coyne is the Minardi of IndyCar. Not to mention that the team is based 45 minutes away from where I live, making them one of my favorites by default. Newman-Haas is based 30 minutes away from me, so I've been a fan of them for the same reason, really.

Wow, I never even liked Minardi (well the whiney PS version anyway) and I found that offensive. Dale Coyne is the Marty Roth of Indycar. And Minardi USA was the Minardi of Indycar

What if the roles had been reversed at the 2003 Brazilian GP and RALPH FIRMAN won instead of Fisichella?

eichy wrote:What if the roles had been reversed at the 2003 Brazilian GP and RALPH FIRMAN won instead of Fisichella?

Greatest upset ever as that would have been Ralph's third F1 race.

Probably a question that's been done before, but what if Damon Hill HAD retired midway through 1999? Jos Verstappen and Shinji Nakano were both tested, so how do you think either of them would do alongside Frentzen?

Ataxia [BacLettNinj] wrote:Probably a question that's been done before, but what if Damon Hill HAD retired midway through 1999? Jos Verstappen and Shinji Nakano were both tested, so how do you think either of them would do alongside Frentzen?

I reckon Trulli would have gone to Jordan early. Which would have meant that he wouldn't have got the podium at Nurburgring, and Gene would have finished 5th, to move Minardi up to 9th in the standings, just one point off Prost.

Ataxia [BacLettNinj] wrote:Probably a question that's been done before, but what if Damon Hill HAD retired midway through 1999? Jos Verstappen and Shinji Nakano were both tested, so how do you think either of them would do alongside Frentzen?

I think they both may have struggled as Harry Heinz was on a bit of a charge that year, 3rd in the championship I think. Nakano showed quite well for Prost, scoring some points too, and I think if it could've led to a full time drive in 2000 then Kobayashi may have been referred to as "the new Nakano". Jos The Boss, to me at least, always seemed on the verge of becoming mighty. He always seemed like if he could just get some good luck and consistency then the sky was the limit. Never really happened and we know how his life has turned out since. Of the two Id expect Verstappen to be better, through toughness and being fearless, but I doubt either would be able to compete with Frentzen.

Anyway, Eddie Jordan always had a thing for Thomas Enge so perhaps he would've got the nod, instead.

eichy wrote:What if the roles had been reversed at the 2003 Brazilian GP and RALPH FIRMAN won instead of Fisichella?

No matter how hard I try I simply cannot imagine that one

CoopsII wrote:

eichy wrote:What if the roles had been reversed at the 2003 Brazilian GP and RALPH FIRMAN won instead of Fisichella?

No matter how hard I try I simply cannot imagine that one

I don't think Firman was capable of winning (see his qualifying performance Vs Fisichella) - had he been in Fisi's car and not suffered a suspension failure, he would have merely scuttled around slowly, sneaking into the points in the chaos of the final laps.

But if he does win, then presumably Jordan keep him on for 2004, as a race winner (even in the most ludicrous of circumstances), while Fisi moves to Sauber for the same reasons as in our timeline (unhappiness with Jordan and hope that Sauber would help him secure a move to Ferrari). Nick Heidfeld is presumably the unlucky party, not getting the tests that won him the seat in our time line. He possibly gets a job at McLaren as a test driver instead of de la Rosa, or moves to Le Mans/DTM. 2004, Firman and Pantano have a torrid season, neither scoring. Firman is dropped for Glock before the end of the season. For 2005 Jordan have an all new line up of Karthikeyan and Monteiro, as in our timeline.

So the key knock on here is Heidfeld quitting F1 early. A lot depends on whether he gets a job as a test driver, and where; if does go to McLaren, he consequently replaces Montoya on occasion in 2005 and 2006. This frees up his seat at Williams, which is won by Antonio Pizzonia. In 2006 when BMW move from Williams to Sauber, they will want a German driver. Heidfeld is still an option (though quite possiblytied to Mercedes), but equally I think that Glock (ex-BMW Junior Team member, fresh from being made best rookie of the 2005 Champ Car season), and at a push Markus Winkelhock or Nico Rosberg are options. I think that Glock could end up in the seat, alongside Jacques Villeneuve, whose contract BMW will honour. Kubica replaces Villeneuve when management lose their patience with him.

With Glock in F1, the 2007 GP2 season is won by Lucas di Grassi, which gets him the job at Toyota. When Toyota and BMW pull out in 2009, Virgin pick up Lucas di Grassi and Luca Filippi, Timo Glock stays on at BMW and is partnered with Fisi or Klien. Probably Klien for a single season, then Perez in for 2011.

eichy wrote:What if the roles had been reversed at the 2003 Brazilian GP and RALPH FIRMAN won instead of Fisichella?

He would become the David Gilliland of F1.

What if Warren Hughes (the real driver, not the member) got a drive in F1 in the late 90s?

redbulljack14 wrote:

Ataxia [BacLettNinj] wrote:Probably a question that's been done before, but what if Damon Hill HAD retired midway through 1999? Jos Verstappen and Shinji Nakano were both tested, so how do you think either of them would do alongside Frentzen?

I reckon Trulli would have gone to Jordan early. Which would have meant that he wouldn't have got the podium at Nurburgring, and Gene would have finished 5th, to move Minardi up to 9th in the standings, just one point off Prost.

I also tend to think Trulli would have gone to Jordan early, rather than Verstappen or Nakano. IIRC Trulli had a performance clause within his 1999 Prost contract which allowed him to terminate it at the mid season point in 1999 if the team failed to score a certain number of points or something. Since that was the case by mid 1999, then Trulli leaving Prost for Jordan, shouldn't have been an issue.

All of this, of course would have left a vacancy at Prost. Which I tend to think might have been taken by Stephane Sarrazin (IIRC Prost's test driver at the time). Sarrazin is someone who my instinct tells me should have been a massive star in F1. One can only go on his single F1 performance at Brazil 1999, when he stood in for Badoer. However according to Wikipedia he outqualified his teammate Marc Gene by a whopping 0.7 secs. I know Gene was only in his 2nd F1 race himself, but nevertheless I'm sure, Gene being a full time driver for Minardi in 1999, would have had more time to get use to the car & F1 in general (i.e. throughout winter testing) Than Sazzarin would have had. So IMO Sarrazin did an outstanding job in his only F1 race & would have have loved to see him get the 2nd Prost seat in the 2nd half of 1999. Who knows what may have come from that?

On a slightly similar note, I believe a major reason for Heidfeld joining Prost in 2000, was because Alain Prost was trying to get Merc engines for his team. So what if Alain was successful in obtaining those Merc engines say for 2000 or 2001? Might that have helped saved the Prost team from their demise at the end of 2001?

What if Steven Johnson didn't plant the lead DJR car at Reid Park on the second restart of the 2006 Bathurst 1000, which allowed the Lowndes/Whincup car to make their first stop under the ensuing yellow flag? At the time, the lead Triple 8 and the two DJR cars stayed out under the second safety car for Jim Richard's accident and were facing the prospect of pitting within 10 laps of green flag running at the time while everyone else had stopped under yellows.

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:

eichy wrote:What if the roles had been reversed at the 2003 Brazilian GP and RALPH FIRMAN won instead of Fisichella?

He would become the David Gilliland of F1.

And that means Firman got to 3rd or 4th place in the chaos and would have had more staying power off of that alone.

What If there was a 20 round championship where this happened:

Only 3 Drivers compete in the whole season, Driver A, Driver B and Driver C

Driver A has car number #1 while C has number #2

Rounds 1-10: Driver A starts on pole, wins, leads every lap and gets fastest lap while Driver C retires

After round 10, Driver A is injured for the rest of the season, Driver B replaces him and so uses number #1

Rounds 11-20: Driver B starts on pole, wins, leads every lap and gets fastest lap while Driver C retires

1) Driver A: 10
= Driver B: 10
3) Driver C: 0

How do you break this tie???

darkapprentice77 wrote:What If there was a 20 round championship where this happened:

Only 3 Drivers compete in the whole season, Driver A, Driver B and Driver C

Driver A has car number #1 while C has number #2

Rounds 1-10: Driver A starts on pole, wins, leads every lap and gets fastest lap while Driver C retires

After round 10, Driver A is injured for the rest of the season, Driver B replaces him and so uses number #1

Rounds 11-20: Driver B starts on pole, wins, leads every lap and gets fastest lap while Driver C retires

1) Driver A: 10
= Driver B: 10
3) Driver C: 0

How do you break this tie???

trick question, because no one would care who won a two car championship

But I do believe it would go to driver A because he achieved his race wins first.

darkapprentice77 wrote:What If there was a 20 round championship where this happened:

Only 3 Drivers compete in the whole season, Driver A, Driver B and Driver C

Driver A has car number #1 while C has number #2

Rounds 1-10: Driver A starts on pole, wins, leads every lap and gets fastest lap while Driver C retires

After round 10, Driver A is injured for the rest of the season, Driver B replaces him and so uses number #1

Rounds 11-20: Driver B starts on pole, wins, leads every lap and gets fastest lap while Driver C retires

1) Driver A: 10
= Driver B: 10
3) Driver C: 0

How do you break this tie???

It turns out that the team running car #1 has been running an illegal car the entire season, making Driver C champion.

ibsey wrote:

redbulljack14 wrote:

Ataxia [BacLettNinj] wrote:Probably a question that's been done before, but what if Damon Hill HAD retired midway through 1999? Jos Verstappen and Shinji Nakano were both tested, so how do you think either of them would do alongside Frentzen?

I reckon Trulli would have gone to Jordan early. Which would have meant that he wouldn't have got the podium at Nurburgring, and Gene would have finished 5th, to move Minardi up to 9th in the standings, just one point off Prost.

I also tend to think Trulli would have gone to Jordan early, rather than Verstappen or Nakano. IIRC Trulli had a performance clause within his 1999 Prost contract which allowed him to terminate it at the mid season point in 1999 if the team failed to score a certain number of points or something. Since that was the case by mid 1999, then Trulli leaving Prost for Jordan, shouldn't have been an issue.

All of this, of course would have left a vacancy at Prost. Which I tend to think might have been taken by Stephane Sarrazin (IIRC Prost's test driver at the time). Sarrazin is someone who my instinct tells me should have been a massive star in F1. One can only go on his single F1 performance at Brazil 1999, when he stood in for Badoer. However according to Wikipedia he outqualified his teammate Marc Gene by a whopping 0.7 secs. I know Gene was only in his 2nd F1 race himself, but nevertheless I'm sure, Gene being a full time driver for Minardi in 1999, would have had more time to get use to the car & F1 in general (i.e. throughout winter testing) Than Sazzarin would have had. So IMO Sarrazin did an outstanding job in his only F1 race & would have have loved to see him get the 2nd Prost seat in the 2nd half of 1999. Who knows what may have come from that?

On a slightly similar note, I believe a major reason for Heidfeld joining Prost in 2000, was because Alain Prost was trying to get Merc engines for his team. So what if Alain was successful in obtaining those Merc engines say for 2000 or 2001? Might that have helped saved the Prost team from their demise at the end of 2001?

I share the same opinion of Sarazzin too. I think he was running like 14th when his suspension went bang, and would definetly have finished in the top 10 had he finished (considering that Gene did finish 9th IIRC. Sarazzin was indeed test driver for Prost, but was 'loaned' to Minardi courtesy of former director Cesare Fiorio who knew him while at the French team. I think he drove the Minardi with Prost overalls too due to contract issues.

Perhaps had Sarazzin was a few years older, could have had a more longer F1 Career with all the Elf/government money...

What if the 1000HP Mercedes Indycar engine was put in an F1 car?

darkapprentice77 wrote:What if the 1000HP Mercedes Indycar engine was put in an F1 car?

Depends on when it was instituted. It would be overkill in today's cars and it's only weakness being durability as Paul Tracy blew one of those engines up before mid-race in 1994.

What if Graham Hill and his colleages weren't killed in a plane crash in 1975?

There were some rumours about Honda teaming up with Benetton in F1 around 1996. (They did have a Benetton-Honda in motor racing after all) There were also speaks about Barrichello joining the squad. How much would it have changed the entire 1997 season?

Onxy Wrecked wrote:

darkapprentice77 wrote:What if the 1000HP Mercedes Indycar engine was put in an F1 car?

Depends on when it was instituted. It would be overkill in today's cars and it's only weakness being durability as Paul Tracy blew one of those engines up before mid-race in 1994.

Not to mention that the packaging issue could be a major problem given that the engine is considerably larger than the modern V8's (3.43 litres against 2.4), although it would be more comparable to the contemporary 3.5L engines that F1 was using at the time.

To be honest, though, it probably would not be that successful in an F1 car - yes, it had a lot of power, but it came with handling issues (the high centre of gravity and the power delivery destabilised the car slightly), plus the engine was designed for a very different set of circumstances.
In the Indy 500, you have to run almost constantly at peak to near peak revs for extended periods of time, whereas an F1 engine only has to operate at its maximum rpm for a few seconds and the usable power band is as important, if not more so, than the ultimate peak power that can be achieved. That change in operating mode, from near constant peak rpm to constantly accelerating and decelerating the car, might not have worked quite as well as a conventional F1 engine that was designed for that mode of operation from the start would have.

DOSBoot wrote:What if Graham Hill and his colleages weren't killed in a plane crash in 1975?

I reckon if Damon had still wanted to race he would've had a lot more money behind him to do it as that accident and the consequent law-suits wiped out the Hill fortunes for many, many years.

What if Renault didn't quit F1 at the end of 1997? They were at the top of their game when they decided to pull the plug, and it still seems a little odd to me, as they could have wrapped up the 1998 and 1999 titles.

pasta_maldonado wrote:What if Renault didn't quit F1 at the end of 1997? They were at the top of their game when they decided to pull the plug, and it still seems a little odd to me, as they could have wrapped up the 1998 and 1999 titles.

Well, it's the same as Honda, isn't it? They had won everything in F1 so I guess they wanted to look for a challenge somewhere else.

Aerond wrote:

pasta_maldonado wrote:What if Renault didn't quit F1 at the end of 1997? They were at the top of their game when they decided to pull the plug, and it still seems a little odd to me, as they could have wrapped up the 1998 and 1999 titles.

Well, it's the same as Honda, isn't it? They had won everything in F1 so I guess they wanted to look for a challenge somewhere else.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Mechacrome engines Williams used basically re-badged year-old Renault engines anyway? Or was that the 'Playlife' engines Benetton had? Either way, the engine was crap..

Aerond wrote:

pasta_maldonado wrote:What if Renault didn't quit F1 at the end of 1997? They were at the top of their game when they decided to pull the plug, and it still seems a little odd to me, as they could have wrapped up the 1998 and 1999 titles.

Well, it's the same as Honda, isn't it? They had won everything in F1 so I guess they wanted to look for a challenge somewhere else.

Honda?

AdrianSutil wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Mechacrome engines Williams used basically re-badged year-old Renault engines anyway? Or was that the 'Playlife' engines Benetton had? Either way, the engine was crap..

The Supertec engines were also rebadged Renaults. I read somewhere that Mechacrome promised to keep up the development of said engines in 1998, which is laughable as I'm pretty certain the engine was exactly the same at the last race of 2000 as it was at Jerez 1997.

East Londoner wrote:

AdrianSutil wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Mechacrome engines Williams used basically re-badged year-old Renault engines anyway? Or was that the 'Playlife' engines Benetton had? Either way, the engine was crap..

The Supertec engines were also rebadged Renaults. I read somewhere that Mechacrome promised to keep up the development of said engines in 1998, which is laughable as I'm pretty certain the engine was exactly the same at the last race of 2000 as it was at Jerez 1997.

Yeah, they were all the same. Mecachrome supplied Williams and Benetton in 1998, and Flavio Briatore took over the distribution rights for 1999 and 2000, rebadging them Supertecs. But yes, Benetton had them badged as Playlifes for '98, '99 and '00.

Renault considered reusing the engine when they officially returned in 2001, but elected to use the 111-degree monstrosity that could barely pull the skin off a rice pudding.

What If Jeff Krosnoff wasn't killed?

I don't think he was championship or even race winner material. But Arciero-Wells didn't have a good package at that point either, Toyota engines struggled for first few years. He would have stayed few more seasons in CART, scoring 10-30 points in a year.

Or, more towards F1, what could Riccardo Paletti have acheived if he wasn't killed?

Ataxia [BacLettNinj] wrote:Renault considered reusing the engine when they officially returned in 2001, but elected to use the 111-degree monstrosity that could barely pull the skin off a rice pudding.

And that engine was something of a weakness for them in 2003 (although the car design made it up a little bit).

tommykl wrote:Or, more towards F1, what could Riccardo Paletti have acheived if he wasn't killed?

A F1Rejects profile?

He couldn't have done very much in that Osella of his. (IIRC)

JeremyMcClean wrote:

tommykl wrote:Or, more towards F1, what could Riccardo Paletti have acheived if he wasn't killed?

A F1Rejects profile?

He couldn't have done very much in that Osella of his. (IIRC)

Remember, Stefan Johansson somehow got a podium out of an Onyx. That being said, Paletti couldn't have been more than a damn you lucky bastard profile alongside Christian Danner, Michael Andretti, and John Crichton-Stuart, 7th Marquess of Bute.

tommykl wrote:Or, more towards F1, what could Riccardo Paletti have acheived if he wasn't killed?

Wasn't he in talks to go to March or something?

...which, at the time, was building cars for RAM, a team famous for being (if anything) even more hopeless than Osella.

RAM's results, under the 2010-onwards points system, would have seen them score two points in their first incarnation (1976-77 & 1980, buying chassis from other teams), a "massive" 31 points in the second (1981-82, running March's works effort) and 15 in the third (1983-85, building their own chassis). Osella, meanwhile, competed for three seasons more than RAM, escaped eligibility from a profile here (despite their hapless DNQs-outnumber-race-starts stats) with a (very fluky, given the circumstances) 4th place at Imola in 1982, and under the same system would have scored 57 points - or 67 if Jo Gartner had been eligible to do so in 1984.

So, assuming Paletti's move would have been to RAM rather than March-run-by-RAM, that looks more like it'd have been a step backwards, considering Osella were at their... not most competitive, but certainly least uncompetitive. I'd say he'd still have had a profile here in that case.

What if the Armco barrier that Helmuth Konigg hit at Watkins Glen in 1974 had have been properly secured?

East Londoner wrote:
The Supertec engines were also rebadged Renaults. I read somewhere that Mechacrome promised to keep up the development of said engines in 1998, which is laughable as I'm pretty certain the engine was exactly the same at the last race of 2000 as it was at Jerez 1997.

I'm not completely sure about that. After all, Benetton and Arrows were quite competitive using that engine during 2000. In particular, the Arrows was a beast down the straights (I know that was partially down to the car design, but still). Minardi were looking forwards to using that engine in 2001 because it was much better than their own engine, a 1998 model which had been developped (if barely) during 1999 and 2000. If it really had no development during three years it had to be a beast of an engine in the first place... which it actually was, but I believe it was developped after 1997, if very little.

Now come to think of it. What if Lake Speed raced in F1 or IndyCar instead of taking Humpy Wheeler's advice to go into NASCAR after that world carting championship and would he have found more success than he did as a NASCAR driver?