Grand Prix Rejects

Backmarker wrote:There's a Chinese driver called David Zhu who will be competing in Formula Two this year. He won't win the championship though, so he'll need to pick up an awful lot of sponsorship to get to F1.

Who cares? Plamen Kralev is in Formula 2 this year!

RealRacingRoots wrote:

Backmarker wrote:There's a Chinese driver called David Zhu who will be competing in Formula Two this year. He won't win the championship though, so he'll need to pick up an awful lot of sponsorship to get to F1.

Who cares? Plamen Kralev is in Formula 2 this year!

Formula Two has the most international drivers, and the worst. They've also got Zimbabwean Axcil Jefferies who hasn't driven for two years, and an Iranian driver, Kourosh Khani, which should add spice when the west invades Iran. It's an odd series.

Backmarker wrote:

RealRacingRoots wrote:

Backmarker wrote:There's a Chinese driver called David Zhu who will be competing in Formula Two this year. He won't win the championship though, so he'll need to pick up an awful lot of sponsorship to get to F1.

Who cares? Plamen Kralev is in Formula 2 this year!

Formula Two has the most international drivers, and the worst. They've also got Zimbabwean Axcil Jefferies who hasn't driven for two years, and an Iranian driver, Kourosh Khani, which should add spice when the west invades Iran. It's an odd series.

With all the involvement of dubious nations it's only a matter of time before Prince Malik starts a Formula 2 team.

http://en.espnf1.com/hrtf1/motorsport/story/75041.html

HRT may go to court over the AeroLab-Force India-Catenham case.

I can understand why. If they find out that Catenham (Lotus at the time) were using Force India designs and parts illegally, in theory HRT would move in that all important and crucial 10th place in the championship.

That then impacts on the 2011 and possibly this season too

eurobrun wrote:With all the involvement of dubious nations it's only a matter of time before Prince Malik starts a Formula 2 team.

Formula Two doesn't have teams, so he'd just have to drive himself. To bring this on subject, surely even HRT could afford to put their drivers in Formula Two?

David AGS wrote:http://en.espnf1.com/hrtf1/motorsport/story/75041.html

HRT may go to court over the AeroLab-Force India-Catenham case.

I can understand why. If they find out that Catenham (Lotus at the time) were using Force India designs and parts illegally, in theory HRT would move in that all important and crucial 10th place in the championship.

That then impacts on the 2011 and possibly this season too

It makes a lot of sense for them to become involved given that they potentially have the most to gain by this action (Marussia's involvement seems peculiar given they are unlikely to gain much - they would still finish outside the top 10 in the constructors championship - but there is more potentially at stake for HRT).

Were, in the most extreme example, Caterham disqualified from the championship and HRT moved up into 10th place, HRT would be a lot closer to getting category 2 status and the additional prize money that comes with it (about an extra $20 million a year and rising). At the very least, it would cripple Caterham quite substantially if they lost that extra funding - perhaps HRT and Marussia are hoping that if they cannot close up on Caterham, they can bring Caterham back to their level.

mario wrote:

David AGS wrote:http://en.espnf1.com/hrtf1/motorsport/story/75041.html

HRT may go to court over the AeroLab-Force India-Catenham case.

I can understand why. If they find out that Catenham (Lotus at the time) were using Force India designs and parts illegally, in theory HRT would move in that all important and crucial 10th place in the championship.

That then impacts on the 2011 and possibly this season too

It makes a lot of sense for them to become involved given that they potentially have the most to gain by this action (Marussia's involvement seems peculiar given they are unlikely to gain much - they would still finish outside the top 10 in the constructors championship - but there is more potentially at stake for HRT).

Were, in the most extreme example, Caterham disqualified from the championship and HRT moved up into 10th place, HRT would be a lot closer to getting category 2 status and the additional prize money that comes with it (about an extra $20 million a year and rising). At the very least, it would cripple Caterham quite substantially if they lost that extra funding - perhaps HRT and Marussia are hoping that if they cannot close up on Caterham, they can bring Caterham back to their level.

Yes it was kind of peculiar how Caterham/Lotus's car appeared out of no where with such short notice and went on to lead the new Teams. Money isn't everything you still need time and efford to design, test and build a new car. So in my opinion Marussia is very right to launch a complaint. If you put an honest effort, time and money in to the competition, then in the end you are rewarded by becoming last only because a rogue team stole some ones hard work to jumps ahead of you. That is very wrong even if money is not an issue. Whats worse is that HRT and Marussia are both genuine back markers but get blasted constantly by the media because they can't perform at the same level as Catherham. As if Caterham is a shinning example of what all new teams should be like! Caterham has been in F1 the same amount of time as HRT but how many times have they been taken to court in this time?

If Caterham gets disqualified then it would push Marussia closer to being Column 2 constructor according to the articles, so they do have something to gain.
I am an HRT fan but I am really starting to like Marussia.

According to the official HRT twitter page, they have tweeted this:

Good morning! How was everyone's Easter? Today the first group of team members have moved in to our new headquarters. Exciting times!

Already in their new factory? Either way if it all goes well, I think it will be a major step in the right direction

mario wrote:Were, in the most extreme example, Caterham disqualified from the championship and HRT moved up into 10th place, HRT would be a lot closer to getting category 2 status and the additional prize money that comes with it (about an extra $20 million a year and rising). At the very least, it would cripple Caterham quite substantially if they lost that extra funding - perhaps HRT and Marussia are hoping that if they cannot close up on Caterham, they can bring Caterham back to their level.

Waaaaait a minute. Surely it's far too late to disqualify Caterham / The Team Formerly Known As Lotus With Necrophilia / Fondmetal Team Malaysia from the 2010 championship? Even Tyrrell didn't get that sort of treatment with their 1984 disqualification, Michael Schumacher only lost his points for the 1997 season rather than the results, and neither were any results changed for McLaren's exclusion from the 2007 season. Tyrrell's treatment was the harshest, given that all the results from the 1984 season were revised, but it happened three races from the end of the season and they sat out the rest, rather than a year and a half later. As I've heard, the rules state that once the season ends, the results are locked in and cannot be changed, so even if Tony Fernandes' Turnip Farmers In Norfolk were to be thrown out of the 2010 season now, it wouldn't make a difference to Marussia or HRT - Fernandes and co would lose all their points, of which there were none to start with, but not the results. Anyway, McLaren's transgression was far more serious, and Renault were found to have done much the same thing that year and got away with it scot-free, as the team itself did after Nelson "innocent' Piquet threw his car into the wall at Singapore.

There appears to be a lot of "hooray, HRT are going to be retrospectively promoted to 10th in 2010 and 2011!" clutching at straws here, and I can't see any situation in which that could happen. If it does... what next? Do we throw Benetton out of the 1995 season, or get shot of Brabham from 1983, even though one of those teams has evolved twice since then and the other no longer exists?

dinizintheoven wrote:

mario wrote:Were, in the most extreme example, Caterham disqualified from the championship and HRT moved up into 10th place, HRT would be a lot closer to getting category 2 status and the additional prize money that comes with it (about an extra $20 million a year and rising). At the very least, it would cripple Caterham quite substantially if they lost that extra funding - perhaps HRT and Marussia are hoping that if they cannot close up on Caterham, they can bring Caterham back to their level.

Waaaaait a minute. Surely it's far too late to disqualify Caterham / The Team Formerly Known As Lotus With Necrophilia / Fondmetal Team Malaysia from the 2010 championship? Even Tyrrell didn't get that sort of treatment with their 1984 disqualification, Michael Schumacher only lost his points for the 1997 season rather than the results, and neither were any results changed for McLaren's exclusion from the 2007 season. Tyrrell's treatment was the harshest, given that all the results from the 1984 season were revised, but it happened three races from the end of the season and they sat out the rest, rather than a year and a half later. As I've heard, the rules state that once the season ends, the results are locked in and cannot be changed, so even if Tony Fernandes' Turnip Farmers In Norfolk were to be thrown out of the 2010 season now, it wouldn't make a difference to Marussia or HRT - Fernandes and co would lose all their points, of which there were none to start with, but not the results. Anyway, McLaren's transgression was far more serious, and Renault were found to have done much the same thing that year and got away with it scot-free, as the team itself did after Nelson "innocent' Piquet threw his car into the wall at Singapore.

There appears to be a lot of "hooray, HRT are going to be retrospectively promoted to 10th in 2010 and 2011!" clutching at straws here, and I can't see any situation in which that could happen. If it does... what next? Do we throw Benetton out of the 1995 season, or get shot of Brabham from 1983, even though one of those teams has evolved twice since then and the other no longer exists?

BINGO! Someone give this man a beer

Seconded. This is being blown completely out of the water.

I'm more interested in what the new "minor" updates are for the HRT this weekend. If memory serves me right, when HRT had updates last year, they did do well in improving the car, bit by bit.

Wizzie wrote:

dinizintheoven wrote:

mario wrote:Were, in the most extreme example, Caterham disqualified from the championship and HRT moved up into 10th place, HRT would be a lot closer to getting category 2 status and the additional prize money that comes with it (about an extra $20 million a year and rising). At the very least, it would cripple Caterham quite substantially if they lost that extra funding - perhaps HRT and Marussia are hoping that if they cannot close up on Caterham, they can bring Caterham back to their level.

Waaaaait a minute. Surely it's far too late to disqualify Caterham / The Team Formerly Known As Lotus With Necrophilia / Fondmetal Team Malaysia from the 2010 championship? Even Tyrrell didn't get that sort of treatment with their 1984 disqualification, Michael Schumacher only lost his points for the 1997 season rather than the results, and neither were any results changed for McLaren's exclusion from the 2007 season. Tyrrell's treatment was the harshest, given that all the results from the 1984 season were revised, but it happened three races from the end of the season and they sat out the rest, rather than a year and a half later. As I've heard, the rules state that once the season ends, the results are locked in and cannot be changed, so even if Tony Fernandes' Turnip Farmers In Norfolk were to be thrown out of the 2010 season now, it wouldn't make a difference to Marussia or HRT - Fernandes and co would lose all their points, of which there were none to start with, but not the results. Anyway, McLaren's transgression was far more serious, and Renault were found to have done much the same thing that year and got away with it scot-free, as the team itself did after Nelson "innocent' Piquet threw his car into the wall at Singapore.

There appears to be a lot of "hooray, HRT are going to be retrospectively promoted to 10th in 2010 and 2011!" clutching at straws here, and I can't see any situation in which that could happen. If it does... what next? Do we throw Benetton out of the 1995 season, or get shot of Brabham from 1983, even though one of those teams has evolved twice since then and the other no longer exists?

BINGO! Someone give this man a beer

Whilst the results that McLaren had in 2007 were not annulled, Max Mosely did later say that he originally wanted to put a motion to the WMSC to strip McLaren of their results up until that point in the season (not to mention stripping them of their entry for 2007), so the option has been considered in the past. And the FIA has demonstrated in the past that it is prepared to ignore or even overwrite both precedence and its own regulations to achieve its aims...

Realistically, though, I agree that the odds of the FIA taking any action is very low, and the chances of anything as extreme as annulling results is tiny. As I said before, it was a very extreme hypothetical situation, and personally I am of the opinion that the more realistic outcome will be that the FIA either dismisses the case out of hand, or otherwise levies a token fine on Caterham to pay lip service to the grievances of Force India.

The only reasons why I could see the FIA taking a stricter line would either be because the parts in question have been re-used over an extended period of time or are still being used now, or possibly because the FIA wants to make an example of Caterham over the issue of transferring the IP rights to designs. There have been a few teams which have been accused of pushing the limits on what technology and design details can and cannot be transferred, so the FIA might be tempted to come down on Caterham more harshly than normal to discourage the teams from pushing the limits.
Even then, though, the most likely action in that situation would be a higher fine - I can't see them taking harsher action than that, simply because I don't believe that Force India has enough leverage with the FIA for them to take a tougher line, not to mention that such harsh action would seem out of character for Todt, given that he has taken a mostly conciliatory line with the teams.

Anyway, sorry for that diversion - onto HRT and its announced updates.

RealRacingRoots wrote:I'm more interested in what the new "minor" updates are for the HRT this weekend. If memory serves me right, when HRT had updates last year, they did do well in improving the car, bit by bit.

There hasn't been any confirmation yet, but the expectation seems to be that the team might be making a few small tweaks to the aero package - there have been a few people speculating that we might see some small tweaks to the front wing, perhaps to the shape of some of the elements or to the endplates, but at the moment that just looks like the typical gossip. Either way, HRT's main focus appears to be mainly around getting more mileage and improving their set up work, with larger upgrades more likely to take place during the test session at Mugello, where they can evaluate those changes over an extended period of time.

Today's DLR fastest time has been within 5,56% of final pole time, a best for HRT since 2010.

Chandhok retains the record, with 5,14% slower, but it's getting closer each race and it's still early days.

Ferrim wrote:Today's DLR fastest time has been within 5,56% of final pole time, a best for HRT since 2010.

Chandhok retains the record, with 5,14% slower, but it's getting closer each race and it's still early days.

That is actually pretty impressive, particularly for only the third race of the year. The sad thing for HRT though is Marussia are apparently making gains as well, their Twitter feed was saying they made a 0.6 tenths gain between Australia and Malaysia, and have now made a further 0.8 tenths gain from Malaysia to China in relation to Caterham and their qualifying times.

Hopefully we'll see all three bunch up quite nicely at some point so we can have a few battles in qualifying and the race as we did in 2010!

To the point of The Media slamming HRT and Marussia.
Remember the media are essentially a bunch of morons, They slammed Badoer after 10 years away from the sport and having never turned a wheel in anger in that amount of time, they also forgot that Massa and Kimi needed time to adapt to the car, But yet despite drivers saying "give him a break its not easy to adjust yourself to the car" The media ignored the people who are brightest on the subject. . .The drivers and still slammed him :l

This is why i don't listen to the media so much, HRT and Marussia are doing very good jobs retrospective to the other teams
Caterham are ahead because they got there start up right HRT didnt have enough time to test due to Internal problems and Marussia are so far behind because they used the CFD, i believe personally if they had enough time to test and Marussia didnt use CFD they would of been on par if not ahead of Caterham.

My opinion.

I totally agree about the media, I barely pay any attention to their reports. I can see for myself how good/bad a team is doing without reading what some hack thinks he knows. HRT have always struggled financially (until Thesan Capital came along to help steady the ship) whilst Marussia lost TWO YEARS of development with the CFD. Had they the budget, resources and time Caterham had at the beginning of 2010, I'd reckon all three teams would be locked toether in a pretty epic back few rows battle.

Nice to see someone else copy my 2012 wish list

Eryx wrote:To the point of The Media slamming HRT and Marussia.
Remember the media are essentially a bunch of morons, They slammed Badoer after 10 years away from the sport and having never turned a wheel in anger in that amount of time, they also forgot that Massa and Kimi needed time to adapt to the car, But yet despite drivers saying "give him a break its not easy to adjust yourself to the car" The media ignored the people who are brightest on the subject. . .The drivers and still slammed him :l

This is why i don't listen to the media so much, HRT and Marussia are doing very good jobs retrospective to the other teams
Caterham are ahead because they got there start up right HRT didnt have enough time to test due to Internal problems and Marussia are so far behind because they used the CFD, i believe personally if they had enough time to test and Marussia didnt use CFD they would of been on par if not ahead of Caterham.

My opinion.

I agree with this, I would say Caterham have under-achieved if anything so far.

AdrianSutil wrote:I help steady the ship) whilst Marussia lost TWO YEARS of development with the CFD. Had they the budget, resources and time Caterham had at the beginning of 2010, I'd reckon all three teams would be locked toether in a pretty epic back few rows battle.

Nice to see someone else copy my 2012 wish list

Problem: Caterham had the same budget and 4 months less time than both Hispania and Marussia to get read for 2010

I didnt see a HRT once during the duration of the race!

CoopsII wrote:I didnt see a HRT once during the duration of the race!

I saw a few in the background, but it was late in the race...

When Kovalainen came out from his stop, having been lapped by both HRTs, he got stuck trying to unlap himself on De la Rosa for about 15 laps. Small victories.

JeremyMcClean wrote:

CoopsII wrote:I didnt see a HRT once during the duration of the race!

I saw a few in the background, but it was late in the race...

I must have blinked. A pity Vettel wasnt in the mood for a bit blame reapportioning.

Wizzie wrote:

AdrianSutil wrote:I help steady the ship) whilst Marussia lost TWO YEARS of development with the CFD. Had they the budget, resources and time Caterham had at the beginning of 2010, I'd reckon all three teams would be locked toether in a pretty epic back few rows battle.

Nice to see someone else copy my 2012 wish list

Problem: Caterham had the same budget and 4 months less time than both Hispania and Marussia to get read for 2010

True. But the resources Caterham had outweighs the money. If you have a high level of good, technical staff but little money, you'll do better than a team with a fistful of dollars but two blokes and a laptop

AdrianSutil wrote:

Wizzie wrote:

AdrianSutil wrote:I help steady the ship) whilst Marussia lost TWO YEARS of development with the CFD. Had they the budget, resources and time Caterham had at the beginning of 2010, I'd reckon all three teams would be locked toether in a pretty epic back few rows battle.

Nice to see someone else copy my 2012 wish list

Problem: Caterham had the same budget and 4 months less time than both Hispania and Marussia to get read for 2010

True. But the resources Caterham had outweighs the money. If you have a high level of good, technical staff but little money, you'll do better than a team with a fistful of dollars but two blokes and a laptop

Minardi being the ultimate example. Their annual budget was $4.37 plus a Carrefour coupon and a clothes button, but somehow they still dragged their cars into the points once in a while.

kostas22 wrote:

AdrianSutil wrote:

Wizzie wrote:
Problem: Caterham had the same budget and 4 months less time than both Hispania and Marussia to get read for 2010

True. But the resources Caterham had outweighs the money. If you have a high level of good, technical staff but little money, you'll do better than a team with a fistful of dollars but two blokes and a laptop

Minardi being the ultimate example. Their annual budget was $4.37 plus a Carrefour coupon and a clothes button, but somehow they still dragged their cars into the points once in a while.

Hell, for a long time, their cars were one of the best on the field in terms of aerodynamics thanks to the sheer genius that was Gustav Brunner on that very same budget.

Yeah, you look at it now, just amazing how they got so far with so little.

On the note of Caterham "under Acheieving" They arent where they should be granted but to be honest, The media mainly (Eddie Jordan) Seems to forget that Caterham arent the only team upgrading there cars. . .
Australia 2010
Petrov 1:26.4
Heikki 1:28.7

So +2.3 Seconds behind?

Australia 2011
Heidfeld 1:27.2
Heikki : 1:29.2

So 2 Seconds behind!

Australia 2012
Kimi 1:27.7
Heikki 1:28.6

So 0.9 Seconds behind. . .

So a tiny performance improvement through 2010-2011 . . .2012 we see a HUGE 1.3 Second improvement
And in Malaysia
less then 0.3 of a second behind Vergne. . .It may have taken 2 and a bit years but i think there on the brink of breaking into the Midfield. Give them till i think Canada. . .And see where they are.

On the note of Minardi. . .Remember there were allot of Factors that helped Minardi score points . . .Reliability is a MAJOR thing now. . .If Schumi hadnt of had that Pit Stop error. . .We possibly could of had another time where 24 Cars could of crossed the line. Cars back in the day of Minardi werent as reliable as they were now. that doesnt change the fact that Minardi are my favourite team STILL and astonished F1

Eryx wrote:And in Malaysia
less then 0.3 of a second behind Vergne.

Nah, Vergne's time wasn't representative as he blew his hotlap at turn 1. The true gap is still 9 tenths to Senna in 17th.

Wizzie wrote:

dinizintheoven wrote:(see above for all my previous bumph, and Mario's) ... There appears to be a lot of "hooray, HRT are going to be retrospectively promoted to 10th in 2010 and 2011!" clutching at straws here, and I can't see any situation in which that could happen. If it does... what next? Do we throw Benetton out of the 1995 season, or get shot of Brabham from 1983, even though one of those teams has evolved twice since then and the other no longer exists?

BINGO! Someone give this man a beer

For the record, given that this is the first time I've looked at this thread since my previous post, I had two beers earlier this evening. Unfortunately, they were Grolsch, but I needed the swingtop bottles more than I wanted to drink their contents, and there were no fine Belgian ales to be seen anywhere. At least, none in the right bottles.

Eryx wrote:On the note of Caterham "under Acheieving" They arent where they should be granted but to be honest, The media mainly (Eddie Jordan) Seems to forget that Caterham arent the only team upgrading there cars. . .

Too right!

The BBC's predictions for this season were that Caterham would finish 9th, ahead of Williams. That would only have happened if Williams had continued their slide backwards, if the FW34 was as bad as the FW33 and all the suspicions were correct about their two heavily-sponsored drivers who many have suspected are more there for their money than talent - but it hasn't happened, the car's a huge improvement (ugly though it is) and, Reverend's catastrophic clanger in Australia aside, both drivers look to be capable of doing the job. Then there's Toro Rosso, who Caterham could also have jumped - the drivers are almost unproved, but the car's clearly good enough that Daniel Ricciardo and Jnnnnn-Errrrrc Vrrrrrrgne don't have to break a sweat to beat the Caterhams in qualifying, what pushes them forward is the thought that, in all probability, one of them will drop out in Q1, as it was for their predecessors in 2010-11, and neither wants to be the fall guy. So - Caterham have moved forwards, definitely, but to reach their target for this year they'd have to have made the giant leap that just doesn't seem to be possible these days. Marussia and HRT (for this is their thread) have probably progressed as well, though the analysis of HRT's qualifying times that shows that it's Karun Chandhok in the genuinely dreadful F110 who's come closest percentagewise to the pole time should really be setting off the alarm bells at their new HQ.

Looking at the qualifying times so far this season, it seems to be a block of 18 cars all within just over a second of each other - then the Caterhams, then the Marussias, then the HRTs, and the order is still as inviolable as it ever was. What really concerns me is the animals-went-in-two-by-two formation of the last six rows of the grid - Williams, Force India, Toro Rosso, Caterham, Marussia, HRT - it suggests that it doesn't really matter who's driving these cars, even with these very narrow performance gaps between then, the grid order is determined overwhelmingly by the raw pace of the car - or, should I say, more specifically, its aerodynamics. Not only gone are the days of 1992 when Mansell would be a second ahead of Patrese, who would be a second ahead of Senna, then there'd be all the others (two seconds off the pace would be down with the Caterhams now - how'd you like that, Ayrton?), but gone also are the days of 2001 where Fernando Alonso dragged his reticent Minardi into places it had no right to be. You could put Sebastian Vettel in a backmarker car now, and he'd still qualify 23rd in an HRT, 21st in a Marussia, and 19th in a Caterham.

What I'd be tempted to do is combine the qualifying times for the Australian GPs of 2010 and 2012, and that should show how far, or not, the three backmarkers have moved off the back... or not, as the case may be. I may also do the same for 1992 and 2012, with the times represented as +x.xxx from pole.

Eryx wrote:On the note of Minardi. . .Remember there were allot of Factors that helped Minardi score points . . .Reliability is a MAJOR thing now. . .If Schumi hadnt of had that Pit Stop error. . .We possibly could of had another time where 24 Cars could of crossed the line. Cars back in the day of Minardi werent as reliable as they were now. that doesnt change the fact that Minardi are my favourite team STILL and astonished F1

Too right, again!

I know I said it somewhere before, but I don't know where (who knows, maybe it was this thread, or the "other" HRT thread?) - the reason the points were expanded to 8th place, then to 10th, was because they had to be to avoid only five or six teams scoring throughout the course of the season. Had the cars of 2010 had the reliability levels of, say, ten years earlier, all three new teams would have scored in 2010 and 2011 - and, likely as not, one or two of them would be on the scoresheets already this year - probably Marussia, seeing as Timo Glock managed to keep his car going in Australia when all others around him were falling to bits. Even so, though, with the relative performance of the cars as dominant in making the results as it is, the fact remains that for Caterham to score one point, they need nine cars ahead of them to retire. It's rare now that nine cars do retire in each race, and even if there are that many, two or three of them will be from those back three teams. How must it be for HRT? They need 13 retirements ahead of them, which is all but unheard of now. And yet, even some of the most hopeless teams in F1 history, those teams we like to celebrate, who were way worse than HRT, managed to sneak a point or two under the old first-to-sixth system. Osella, for instance, the epitome of a massive reject team, scored two points, as did Zakspeed and AGS. Under the 2010 points system, Coloni would have had four points for an eighth, and they were totally hopeless; Simtek, for all their troubles, were a far better proposition, but would only have scored one point under the same system, while Pacific, firmly bottom of the heap by a mile in 1994, recovered the next year to two 8ths and a 9th for... ten 2010 points! While here are HRT, Marussia and Caterham on a big fat zero after two seasons which were longer than those of the 80s and 90s, plus three races into this one.

Reliability. I like it in my road car, which is a Honda and never, ever breaks down. I hate it in F1.

Right, here's a bit of analysis, for what it's worth, of the Q1 of the Chinese GP qualifying sessions from this year and 2010:

Hamilton (2010 McLaren) +0.000
Pérez (2012 Sauber) +0.000
Alonso (2012 Ferrari) +0.094
Grrrrjjjjnnn (2012 Toleman) +0.145
Rosberg (2010 Mercedes) +0.311
Maldonado (2012 Williams) +0.330
Webber (2010 Red Bull) +0.337
Alonso (2010 Ferrari) +0.346
Massa (2012 Ferrari) +0.358
Massa (2010 Ferrari) +0.435
di Resta (2012 Force India) +0.441
Senna (2012 Williams) +0.476
Button (2010 McLaren) +0.481
Webber (2012 Red Bull) +0.484
Button (2012 McLaren) +0.548
Hamilton (2012 McLaren) +0.565
Schumacher (2012 Mercedes) +0.599
Räikkönen (2012 Toleman) +0.652
Kobayashi (2012 Sauber) +0.665
Vettel (2010 Red Bull) +0.676
Rosberg (2012 Mercedes) +0.677
Kubica (2010 Renault) +0.707
Vettel (2012 Red Bull) +0.713
Hülkenberg (2012 Force India) +0.723
Ricciardo (2012 Toro Rosso) +0.735
Schumacher (2010 Mercedes) +0.843
Alguersuari (2010 Toro Rosso) +0.977
Barrichello (2010 Williams) +1.023
Sutil (2010 Force India) +1.030
Buemi (2010 Toro Rosso) +1.152
Petrov (2010 Renault) +1.390
Kobayashi (2010 Sauber) +1.403
Hülkenberg (2010 Williams) +1.408
de la Rosa (2010 Sauber) +1.409
Vergne (2012 Toro Rosso) +1.516
Liuzzi (2010 Force India) +1.520
Kovalainen (2012 Caterham) +2.265
Petrov (2012 Caterham) +2.479
Glock (2012 Marussia) +3.084
Pic (2012 Marussia) +3.519
Glock (2010 Virgin) +3.637
Trulli (2010 Lotus) +3.758
Kovalainen (2010 Lotus) +3.879
di Grassi (2010 Virgin) +4.142
de la Rosa (2012 HRT) +4.213
Karthikeyan (2012 HRT) +4.802
Senna (2010 Hispania) +4.828
Chandhok (2010 Hispania) +4.937

OK, so Q1 times aren't totally representative of how it would be if we had a proper old-school qualifying session, with all 24 cars trying to do their best laps in one session, but I think this shows exactly how tough the new boys have still got it. Catherham's PR department could try and spin it and say "hey, look! Heikki was less than a second off the back of the midfield!" but that doesn't tell the story; whatever Jnnnn-Errrrrc Vrrrrrgne was doing in that session, whether he was not trying, whether he had car problems or whether he was just failing, he was unusually slow; Daniel Ricciardo, in the same car, is a mile away. Sure Caterham have progressed by a second and a half since 2010 - but, 2.265 seconds off the pace when the midfield ahead of them has bunched up so much that Ricciardo is only 0.735 seconds off the fastest time (Pérez, admittedly, but after Malaysia should we be so surprised at seeing him head the timesheets?) is still a complete disaster. Marussia have, at least, moved ahead enough that they're faster than their 2010 model... just, but if Timo Glock thinks he'll be fighting for a podium at the 2014 Russian Grand Prix... dream on, me old mucker. As for HRT... the reason why I didn't use combined results from Australia is because their 2010 model was ten seconds off the pace in Karun Chandhok's hands, and that gap had reduced to under four seconds for China. It seems they've moved on by the same margin as Marussia - 0.6 of a second or so, so the gap between the two is the same as it ever was, and with Glock 1.2 seconds faster than de la Rosa, there's no wonder the HRTs can't race with the Marussias - that's twice the gap between a Ferrari and a Toro Rosso! And there's no wonder the Marussias can't race with the Caterhams, and the Caterhams can't race with everyone else...

Who'd consider joining F1 now with those odds stacked against them? Lola? Stefan? Epsilon Euskadi? Prodrive? Some Arabs with more money than sense? A misguided Chinese manufacturer? They'd all have to be completely mad. Madder than Mad Madeleine McMad, the mad hatter of Madchester who's on holiday in New York visiting Madison Square Garden, watching a Madness gig. We've been driving in our cars (honk honk, clang clang, etc), we wish they were Jaguars. Even an R1 would do.

Thank you for agreeing with me Diniz never had anyone agree with me before.

Your right about everything you just said, Helk even Forti would have points under the 2010 system, Badoer would of scored what like 24 Points i think under the current system. Am i the only one that believes that everyone in F1 History should have there Points done again as in There should be no current system for 2010 etc it should change to all of them. . .So Teams and Drivers can have all the points i just find it rather unfair that Alguersarus can come in (NOT FINISH IN THE TOP 6) And still have 31 Points to his name. . .Yet Luca Badoer comes in Scores allot of 7th,8th,9th,10th and has 0. . .That to me doesnt seem right or fair in anyway
Harald Ertl would of got points
So would
Larry Perkins
Brian Henton
the list goes on and on I just dont see how this is fair how drivers back then dont get the same as drivers now. . .Points wise. . .Surely if someone plants it 7th they should get the same treatment as it were as someone who plants it 7th today?

Or even better, revert to the 2003-2008 points system.

Eryx wrote:Thank you for agreeing with me Diniz never had anyone agree with me before.

Your right about everything you just said, Helk even Forti would have points under the 2010 system, Badoer would of scored what like 24 Points i think under the current system. Am i the only one that believes that everyone in F1 History should have there Points done again as in There should be no current system for 2010 etc it should change to all of them. . .So Teams and Drivers can have all the points i just find it rather unfair that Alguersarus can come in (NOT FINISH IN THE TOP 6) And still have 31 Points to his name. . .Yet Luca Badoer comes in Scores allot of 7th,8th,9th,10th and has 0. . .That to me doesnt seem right or fair in anyway
Harald Ertl would of got points
So would
Larry Perkins
Brian Henton
the list goes on and on I just dont see how this is fair how drivers back then dont get the same as drivers now. . .Points wise. . .Surely if someone plants it 7th they should get the same treatment as it were as someone who plants it 7th today?

After checking, the driver with the most starts without a top ten finish in Anthony Davidson, with 24 starts. David Brabham came close, but has one top ten.

Well that works lol.

Ill get a list of points for drivers.
Badoer 25 Points <<<
Huub Rothengatter - 20 Points
Domenic Schiattarella - 2 Points
Andrea Montermini - 7 Points
Paul Belmondo - 2Points
Taki Inoue - 6 Points
Oliver Beretta - 12 Points

YET!
Buemi - 29 Points (BEST FINISH 7TH!)
Alguersarus 31 Points (BEST FINISH 7TH!)
Pastor 5 Points (best finish 8th!)
Hmmmmm

I had a pretty decent idea for an all-time points system, which took into account things like the number of races in a season and reliability. Maybe I'll revive work on it some day, but this is not the right thread for that...

Waris wrote:I had a pretty decent idea for an all-time points system, which took into account things like the number of races in a season and reliability. Maybe I'll revive work on it some day, but this is not the right thread for that...

Hmm, sounds interesting.

For this GP, HRT have only brought along updates to sort out the cooling problems which have been an issue for them since the start of the year. They sound optimistic that they've been able to sort that problem out, and actually get to extracting performance from the car, so expect to see them a bit closer to the rest of the pack. It looks as if they are taking things rather conservatively, slowly gathering momentum in car development, before they bring along a major series of upgrades for the Mugello test, which will include KERS.

I worry a lot about Narain, 1.8s behind Pedro even when they both set the laps on the same tyres.

cbbcisace wrote:I worry a lot about Narain, 1.8s behind Pedro even when they both set the laps on the same tyres.

It may be different programs. They've been trying to split the work between themselves, so Narain may be running longer runs.