The Lucas di Grassi Formula E Thread

[SammiRei]

However, in the past few days, Mercedes have hinted that they may not remain in FE beyond next year for the Gen3 model of car, so there may actually be hope yet...

That's a little concerning, given both BMW and Audi have already pulled out citing a lack of further development opportunities from next year onwards.

[dr-baker]

Article on Autosport says that FE will start discussing Gen4 rules soon, and that nothing will be left off the table, including hydrogen fuel cell power trains. If they do this, I will be very enthusiastic. Wonder if that could lead to in race refuelling and therefore longer races if they go down that route? With a fuel limit, they could still insist on fuel saving if they insist on that as their USP.

[dr-baker]

Maserati to return to single seater racing at the start of the Gen3 rules for the first time since the 1950s, but not joining their then rivals Ferrari and Alfa Romeo in F1 again.

[SammiRei]

McLaren have declared they want to take over from Mercedes from next year, and Abt Sport have said they're looking to come in as a customer team (possibly of Mahindra), so we should be back up to 12 teams next year (or 13 if Maserati aren't taking over another existing team).

[dr-baker]

I feel like this will be the first season in which Sam Bird will not be a race winner. I hope to be proved wrong, but I fear that it will be very unlikely.

[dr-baker]

The pre-race stuff ahead of both races in London features Jacks Jones and a dance crew, with the lights going down. Not a great working environment for the mechanics, engineers and drivers a few minutes before a race start. And first lap contact leading to DNFs seem to happen more frequently at the London Excel track than anywhere else. Probably just a coincidence, call it correlation rather than causation, but it cannot have helped.

[dr-baker]

I feel like this will be the first season in which Sam Bird will not be a race winner. I hope to be proved wrong, but I fear that it will be very unlikely.

It is now confirmed. He will have an operation on his broken hand and will therefore miss the final double header in Seoul, and will be replaced by Norman Nato.

[SammiRei]

I had front-row seats on the first corner to the Sunday E-Prix (round 14), and it was a really awesome experience. First time I've been to a race, and definitely planning on going again next year (originally had tickets for 2020, until Covid happened). Really sad for Sam Bird, I was hoping he'd maintain his winning streak, but alas, not to be.

[Yannick]

Congrats to Stoffel Vandoorne for winning this year's Formula E Championship.

Now, I need to find out where I can get a Stoffel T-shirt.

[dinizintheoven]

BOOM!

Time to wake this thread up again. Round One of the Gen-3 era has happened... and I won't say anything in case those of you who didn't know it was live on Channel 4's ThemTube channel weren't watching it live and will be getting up early on a Sunday morning to watch it on old-school media instead (though maybe with the assistance of a recording device that's a lot more advanced than VHS).

The cars are, apparently, faster and the motors are rated at a maximum of 350 kW during ATTACK MODE and 300 kW otherwise. Seeing as that'll drain the battery a lot faster, there's more regenerative braking. Lucas di Grassi, who's driven every FE race there has ever been (including the one that's just happened) says the lap times aren't much lower because it's harder to put the power down on track - such is the potential pitfall with a powertrain that can deliver maximum torque from zero revs.

So, who overcame the pitfall, who fell into it, and who will probably be spared a visit to a completely lovely and safe country in the Middle East that's building a completely wonderful Smart City for nine million residents who will really, really want to live there and won't be coerced into doing so at all and where everyone skips happily though the sand dunes without a care in the world because Big Brother Most Definitely Isn't Watching You and certainly isn't waiting with a big stick to deal out a savage beating to anyone who steps out of line in a way that you already know what I mean?

Find out tomorrow morning, if you haven't already.

[dr-baker]

These new Gen 3 cars remind me of a Formula Jedi car a.k.a. F1000, certainly from the cockpit backwards. More in terms of the car being short and not as elongated as an Indycar or F1 or even a Le Mans prototype. It really does have the proportions of a junior race series car to me.

And it still isn't encouraging me to go electric with my road transport as I still don't see an electric car racing for the same duration as an F1 or Indycar race, let alone an endurance race, despite the progress since season 1 where they were changing cars. And the performance is not as high, and you HAVE to regen to be able to keep going? Doesn't do it for me I'm afraid.

However, I'm still enjoying watching this series...

[dinizintheoven]

And it still isn't encouraging me to go electric with my road transport...

Ooooh, careful now! The Cult of St. Greta will be coming after you!

You're right, though, despite their zeal, because...

...as I still don't see an electric car racing for the same duration as an F1 or Indycar race, let alone an endurance race, despite the progress since season 1 where they were changing cars. And the performance is not as high, and you HAVE to regen to be able to keep going? Doesn't do it for me I'm afraid.

I've said this for years; I will believe that electric cars are genuinely viable as everyday transport (in the same way as those powered by "dead dinosaur juice" - courtesy of the latest issue of the excellent Classic. Retro. Modern. magazine) when, and only when, an electrically-powered car beats its fossil-fuel-powered competitors at Le Mans. Until then, if I want to visit my uncle and aunt in Leeds, I can do so in my 15-year-old diesel Honda, whereas my naighbour's late-2010s Nissan leaf can't make the entire journey without having to recharge along the way.

However, I'm still enjoying watching this series...

As am I. And to this day, out of the 102 ePrixs that there have been, I've watched 102 of them (and been to one - remember that, all the way back in season 1?).

What I have not been enjoying about this weekend's two races should be obvious for anyone who's read my words (or between the lines, at least) for the last three or four years, but what I have enjoyed: Buemi versus Bird at the sharp end of the field is an excellent throwback to the ramshackle Gen-1 era, and the way that two organisations that are trying to elbow their way into F1 are opening a can of premium-quality whoopass on the rest of the FE field might be what finally gets them both into The World's Premier Motorsport That Is Mostly A Closed House. But, might the fact that McLaren are also near the front count against Porsche and Andretti? Will they be the ones to report to Liberty Media that both are a credible threat to the current F1 order? Time will tell.

Time will also tell if Dan Ticktum can finally rebuild the reputation that's harder to rebuild than anyone else in the entirety of motorsport, with the possible exception of Andrea Sassetti. If he goes on the way he is this season, it's possible. And I never thought I'd say that.

For now, bring on the 103rd ePrix. I'll be watching, even if Channel 4 is quite annoyingly only showing the live race on ThemTube so far this season.

[dr-baker]

And it still isn't encouraging me to go electric with my road transport...

Ooooh, careful now! The Cult of St. Greta will be coming after you!

I’m still up for hydrogen transportation. But only if there is more infrastructure in place. At the moment, I’m working in West London, and there is just about a minimum acceptable level of infrastructure in place for me to consider there. There are both police and taxis using Toyota Mirais and there are pumps at Beaconsfield and Cobham motorway services, plus one at Gatwick (these three I have physically seen) plus there are apparently another two at Heathrow/Hatton Cross and another in Twickenham. Nearer to home in Essex, there is allegedly one in the East End, in Romford. These last three I have yet to actually see yet. But for my British holidays, I typically drive, this includes the NorthWest, southern to mid Scotland, north Wales and Hampshire, plus Isle of Man and parts of Europe. I need a nationwide infrastructure and endurance/stamina from my noble stead to maintain the lifestyle that I am used to. And this is better than the alternative of flying that I would tend to lean towards instead.

Basically, if you want me out of my dinosaur-burning ICE car, give me a viable alternative that will actively entice me. And preferably by 2030. The clock is ticking, people!

I've said this for years; I will believe that electric cars are genuinely viable as everyday transport (in the same way as those powered by "dead dinosaur juice" - courtesy of the latest issue of the excellent Classic. Retro. Modern. magazine) when, and only when, an electrically-powered car beats its fossil-fuel-powered competitors at Le Mans. Until then, if I want to visit my uncle and aunt in Leeds, I can do so in my 15-year-old diesel Honda, whereas my naighbour's late-2010s Nissan leaf can't make the entire journey without having to recharge along the way.

I do believe we are singing from the same hymn sheet! (Religious symbolism apt given the fervour around this topic! Or do I mean Abt?)

What I have not been enjoying about this weekend's two races should be obvious for anyone who's read my words (or between the lines, at least) for the last three or four years, but what I have enjoyed: Buemi versus Bird at the sharp end of the field is an excellent throwback to the ramshackle Gen-1 era, and the way that two organisations that are trying to elbow their way into F1 are opening a can of premium-quality whoopass on the rest of the FE field might be what finally gets them both into The World's Premier Motorsport That Is Mostly A Closed House. But, might the fact that McLaren are also near the front count against Porsche and Andretti? Will they be the ones to report to Liberty Media that both are a credible threat to the current F1 order? Time will tell.

Time will also tell if Dan Ticktum can finally rebuild the reputation that's harder to rebuild than anyone else in the entirety of motorsport, with the possible exception of Andrea Sassetti. If he goes on the way he is this season, it's possible. And I never thought I'd say that.

For now, bring on the 103rd ePrix. I'll be watching, even if Channel 4 is quite annoyingly only showing the live race on ThemTube so far this season.

I have still yet to catch up with today’s race, but will do so before the weekend is out. (Sadly I addiction to Autosport means that I know it did happen.) Yes, I am sure you are referring to ‘sportswashing’ in your reference to not enjoying this weekend’s racing, yet there must be some relief no bombs have been reported this weekend, unlike the last Saudi F1 event…

And Tinktum is making progress. Or maybe it is just Nio333? But the rate he fell during the race yesterday does still mean he has a long way to go. So long as he keeps his nose clean, and remembers that these are not bumpercars, he’ll continue winning hearts and minds.

And it is frustration that FE is not on terrestrial but only on 2nd person pronouns Tube.

[dr-baker]

However, I'm still enjoying watching this series...

As am I. And to this day, out of the 102 ePrixs that there have been, I've watched 102 of them (and been to one - remember that, all the way back in season 1?).

I enjoyed meeting you at Battersea for the race, and at Donnington for some pre-season testing. Must do it again sometime.

[dr-baker]

Disastrous race for Jaguar in Hyderabad due to Sam Bird's unfortunate mistake.

No idea what caused DNFs for Kelvin van der Linde and Dan Tinktum, the latter of whom seems to qualify OK this year, but lacks race pace.

Hate catching up with the race later in the day on YouTube because of all the ads they put in, around every 5 laps or so.

And I want to know more about Jake Hughes's DNF. Something about the mirror getting in the way of the steering wheel?

[SammiRei]

Cape Town started 5 cars down and shed more during the race in what must be proving to be a costly season. Some good overtakes again, though gutted for Fenestraz, who was doing well right until he abruptly wasn't right at the end (C4's coverage didn't show exactly what happened, as they were somewhat understandably focussing on DaCosta vs Vergne at the front).
Nio333 definitely proving they aren't the weakest car in the field this year with Ticktum's 6th following immediately after Sette-Camera's 5th in Hyderabad.

[dr-baker]

Yeah, Dan Tinktum is surprising me this season. Everyone should have a chance at redemption I suppose, even if he did do some really rather despicable stuff in his junior career...

And I suppose Mahindra did the right thing on safety grounds, but it did deplete the field somewhat. An argument for more pre-season testing, to iron out these teething issues?

[dinizintheoven]

Nio333 definitely proving they aren't the weakest car in the field this year with Ticktum's 6th following immediately after Sette-Camera's 5th in Hyderabad.

It was pretty much obvious from the first race that Abt Cupra were stone dead last, but even so, NIO are punching above their weight at the moment. I'll bet Robin Frijns isn't in any mad rush for his wrist to heal, though... he can let Kelvin van der Linde take the pain of driving for the rest of the season.

Meanwhile, I hear on the proper-automotive front that Jaguar are going to be in grave peril if nailing their colours fully to the electric mast doesn't work out the way St. Greta of Stockholm told them would definitely be the case. Just to keep themselves afloat, they might have to start winning on Sunday (or Saturday) regularly if they want to sell on Monday. And it's not as if the Land Rover half of JLR is going to help, either, now that the Ineos Grenadier has been launched. A local mechanic who's dedicated his life to working on Land Rovers says they're going to go to the wall this decade because the Discovery's not fit for purpose, the "Defender" isn't a Defender in any way, and anyone who wants one will buy the Grenadier instead.

Troubled times are ahead...

[dr-baker]

Nio333 definitely proving they aren't the weakest car in the field this year with Ticktum's 6th following immediately after Sette-Camera's 5th in Hyderabad.

It was pretty much obvious from the first race that Abt Cupra were stone dead last, but even so, NIO are punching above their weight at the moment. I'll bet Robin Frijns isn't in any mad rush for his wrist to heal, though... he can let Kelvin van der Linde take the pain of driving for the rest of the season.

Meanwhile, I hear on the proper-automotive front that Jaguar are going to be in grave peril if nailing their colours fully to the electric mast doesn't work out the way St. Greta of Stockholm told them would definitely be the case. Just to keep themselves afloat, they might have to start winning on Sunday (or Saturday) regularly if they want to sell on Monday. And it's not as if the Land Rover half of JLR is going to help, either, now that the Ineos Grenadier has been launched. A local mechanic who's dedicated his life to working on Land Rovers says they're going to go to the wall this decade because the Discovery's not fit for purpose, the "Defender" isn't a Defender in any way, and anyone who wants one will buy the Grenadier instead.

Troubled times are ahead...

The Jaguar iPace eTrophy didn't help Jaguar's cause much then. But that series did have a name as ridiculous as Top Gear's Hammerhead Eagle iThrush...

[Barbazza]

Meanwhile, I hear on the proper-automotive front that Jaguar are going to be in grave peril if nailing their colours fully to the electric mast doesn't work out the way St. Greta of Stockholm told them would definitely be the case. Just to keep themselves afloat, they might have to start winning on Sunday (or Saturday) regularly if they want to sell on Monday. And it's not as if the Land Rover half of JLR is going to help, either, now that the Ineos Grenadier has been launched. A local mechanic who's dedicated his life to working on Land Rovers says they're going to go to the wall this decade because the Discovery's not fit for purpose, the "Defender" isn't a Defender in any way, and anyone who wants one will buy the Grenadier instead.

Troubled times are ahead...

Living in Birmingham means you're meant to regard JLR as some kind of local saviour. However....Jaguar haven't made an interesting car since about 1983 and as for Land Rover, I gather that they are shockingly badly made. Put it this way, I was walking somewhere once and passed one parked at the side of the road with the driver investigating the problem. The number plate revealed that it was part of the most recent registrations, making it (at most) a few weeks old.....

[dr-baker]

That first race of the weekend in Berlin was eventful. A record 190 overtaking manoeuvres in 43 laps, 2 safety cars, a record 8 leaders, Jaguar's first 1-2, Dan Tinktum fails again, I could go on.

So close to Bird getting his first win in 1.5+ seasons, but again it wasn't to be. Must be tough to have got so close yet so far. But it isn't Formula Easy is it?

And I have just noticed that the FE DJ hasn't been around for a while now. How long has that been? Not a great loss if I have just noticed.

But I have been missing Dario Franchitti all year as commentator. I would like him back alongside Jack Nichols.

[dr-baker]

Seriously? They try a climate change protest at the series that is making the biggest attempt at being green? And gluing themselves to the safety/pace car and the track, sheer muppetry. At least they did it before the race started, that at least was safer.

And I saw a video on Twitter that showed that at least 3 people climbed over the fence. Is that worth posting here too?

[SammiRei]

With Günther scoring two reasonable points hauls in Berlin, Frijns getting 3 for the shock pole today and Müller hanging on to get 2 points for 9th today as well, that means all 22 regular season drivers have now scored (excluding van der Linde, who was only standing in while Frijns was injured).

[Barbazza]

Not sure what is going on behind the scenes at Formula E but having seen Dario Franchitti sadly disappear from commentary duties they have now parted company with Jack Nicholls 'with immediate effect' (standard PR speak for 'sacked' I believe) and with Vernon Kay understandably stepping down due to his new Radio 2 show and Nicki Shields missing the next round, Jakarta will be the first time ever that all of the 'Original 3' are missing.

Ben Edwards taking over on commentary duties is fine, though I will miss Jack. The new main presenter is Radzi who is one of those modern, bland, personality void presenters that can cover multiple sports and seem to be popular with TV companies these days (see also Dan Walker, Ore Oduba etc)

It's the pundits that really stink up the place. Nelson Piquet Jr keeps up the habit of a lifetime by adding nothing worthwhile to the proceedings, while Oliver Askew is just....there. And apparently Kelvin van der Linde has been on too but I can't even remember this.
The latter 2 have just a handful of races in Formula E to use as insightful experience, surely there must be some other ex-drivers they can ask instead. What's Nico Prost doing these days?

[Alextrax52]

Not sure what is going on behind the scenes at Formula E but having seen Dario Franchitti sadly disappear from commentary duties they have now parted company with Jack Nicholls 'with immediate effect' (standard PR speak for 'sacked' I believe) and with Vernon Kay understandably stepping down due to his new Radio 2 show and Nicki Shields missing the next round, Jakarta will be the first time ever that all of the 'Original 3' are missing.

Ben Edwards taking over on commentary duties is fine, though I will miss Jack. The new main presenter is Radzi who is one of those modern, bland, personality void presenters that can cover multiple sports and seem to be popular with TV companies these days (see also Dan Walker, Ore Oduba etc)

It's the pundits that really stink up the place. Nelson Piquet Jr keeps up the habit of a lifetime by adding nothing worthwhile to the proceedings, while Oliver Askew is just....there. And apparently Kelvin van der Linde has been on too but I can't even remember this.
The latter 2 have just a handful of races in Formula E to use as insightful experience, surely there must be some other ex-drivers they can ask instead. What's Nico Prost doing these days?

I think we’ve got our answer as to why he’s gone and I don’t think your going to miss him anymore

https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/166 ... 6f4r57Brfg

[dr-baker]

I think we’ve got our answer as to why he’s gone and I don’t think your going to miss him anymore

https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/166 ... 6f4r57Brfg

Yeah, not great. Lots of this seems to be coming out in the open now. Great for the victims that they can now fell like they can bring it out into the open, a shame that there is this much of it (see: Phillip Schofield, Rolf Harris, Gary Glitter, Donald Trump, Jimmy Saville, etc.)

[SammiRei]

Bird's my favourite driver in Formula E, but I have a funny feeling he's going to need to seriously buck his ideas up if he wants a seat next season, given today's mess.

[dr-baker]

Bird's my favourite driver in Formula E, but I have a funny feeling he's going to need to seriously buck his ideas up if he wants a seat next season, given today's mess.

I too.am a fan of the Bird, but I am starting to fear that his last win is already behind him.

[SammiRei]

If I hadn't already been worried for Bird's career going into today's race, I certainly would be now. That was a mess.

[dinizintheoven]

Listening to the interview after today's race, it sounds as if either Sam Bird has already been told he's fired for next season, or that he doesn't believe he's up to the job any more... maybe both. I would say "the curse of the second Jaguar seat strikes again", but he's been the most successful of the Other Jags by miles. Adam Carroll, NPJ, Alex Lynn, James Calado, none of them ever stood on the podium, even if NPJ's season and a half brought three fourth places... but he'd been the inaugural champion and more was expected of him. Norman Nato's substitute appearance last season led to a blank scoresheet. But even with two wins and five further podiums over three seasons, Mitch has beaten him every time.

So if it's all over for one of the original FE drivers, who's going to take his place? Oliver Rowland is sitting on the sidelines doing nothing, Lucas di Grassi will be desperate to get out of Mahindra, and ditto Robin Frijns from ABT Cupra. All of them know how to win. I further suspect there's going to be a seat going at Andretti as well as it's not exactly worked out right for André Lotterer, and at 42 he's not in the first flushes of youth either. (Fernando Alonso was unavailable for comment and Gabriele Tarquini just waved his arms around and jabbered in Italian.)

There is also the prospect of Techeetah returning next year, or at least they said they intend to - but the only drivetrain that isn't in four cars for this season is NIO, and that ranks fifth out of six with only Mahindra's miserable effort behind them. A Chinese dream team of Techeetah-NIO next season will be stone dead last, which is at least good news for ABT Cupra. Who's going to be desperate enough to want to drive that? Ma Qing Hua? Piercarlo Ghinzani? Carmen Jorda? They're not listed on the All-Knowing Oracle's page for the 2023-24 season so it might not happen at all, but part of me is still hoping it does, just for a laugh.

[Alextrax52]

Listening to the interview after today's race, it sounds as if either Sam Bird has already been told he's fired for next season, or that he doesn't believe he's up to the job any more... maybe both. I would say "the curse of the second Jaguar seat strikes again", but he's been the most successful of the Other Jags by miles. Adam Carroll, NPJ, Alex Lynn, James Calado, none of them ever stood on the podium, even if NPJ's season and a half brought three fourth places... but he'd been the inaugural champion and more was expected of him. Norman Nato's substitute appearance last season led to a blank scoresheet. But even with two wins and five further podiums over three seasons, Mitch has beaten him every time.

So if it's all over for one of the original FE drivers, who's going to take his place? Oliver Rowland is sitting on the sidelines doing nothing, Lucas di Grassi will be desperate to get out of Mahindra, and ditto Robin Frijns from ABT Cupra. All of them know how to win. I further suspect there's going to be a seat going at Andretti as well as it's not exactly worked out right for André Lotterer, and at 42 he's not in the first flushes of youth either. (Fernando Alonso was unavailable for comment and Gabriele Tarquini just waved his arms around and jabbered in Italian.)

There is also the prospect of Techeetah returning next year, or at least they said they intend to - but the only drivetrain that isn't in four cars for this season is NIO, and that ranks fifth out of six with only Mahindra's miserable effort behind them. A Chinese dream team of Techeetah-NIO next season will be stone dead last, which is at least good news for ABT Cupra. Who's going to be desperate enough to want to drive that? Ma Qing Hua? Piercarlo Ghinzani? Carmen Jorda? They're not listed on the All-Knowing Oracle's page for the 2023-24 season so it might not happen at all, but part of me is still hoping it does, just for a laugh.

According to therace.com apparently Cassidy is going to move up from the customer Envision team and partner Evans in a Kiwi superteam even though nothing’s been officially announced. I would say that makes them favourites for next year but then again I said that about JEV/Vandoorne at DS Penske this season and look at them now.

[dinizintheoven]

I never saw that coming, but it would work.

Anyway... seeing as this is Grand Prix REJECTS, and the same concept can be applied to any motorsport series, I thought I'd analyse the FE drivers' almanac and see how we're doing in terms of rejectdom. As FE is considerably less predictable than F1, and even a backmarker team can pull a surprise result out of the bag (similar to Stefan Johansson finishing on the podium in an Onyx - the very idea!), rejects don't tend to stay that way if they have a career of any reasonable length, unless we're talking about Ma Qing Hua, who had the highest number of races without scoring a point.

I'll put up the full standings when this season is over and done with, but here's a summary of how this season looks, along with some other waffle and bunk:

At the beginning of the season, of the 22 drivers, there were only three rejects. Two have since been unrejectified - Jake Hughes and Sacha Fenestraz, who had a combined total of one FE start between them at the start of the season. Dan Ticktum was the other one - he was less likely to be unrejectified driving for NIO, but has managed two 6th places, and only needs one more with two rounds to go, and might have had it already but for his tendency... to be Dan Ticktum.

During the season, Kelvin van der Linde and David Beckmann have stepped in as substitutes, and Roberto Merhi has been handed Oliver Rowland's seat. None have troubled the scorers, let alone come close to unrejectification, and only Beckmann had a car that was capable of doing so at short notice.

Some drivers' unrejectifications came as a surprise, in that I'd forgotten they were capable of getting enough results for it, but all it took in some cases was a one-off piece of brilliance. Charles Pic, Jarno Trulli, Tom Dillmann and Pierre Gasly are four non-rejects I'd long since forgotten about (even if I remember Gasly as being the first driver to transfer from FE to F1 and not the other way); Oliver Askew did so in his solitary season last year, and Sergio Sette Câmara, who's still involved, was another. I had not forgotten Nico Müller or Norman Nato, though I had forgotten that Nato's unrejectification was the race before his win.

And there's only ever been one driver who was unrejectified on debut after the first race: Scott Speed, in season 1. Since then, the requirement to adapt to driving differently to F1, F2, DTM, WEC or anything else petrol-powered has pretty much ensured that debutants will struggle initially, even if dropped into a front-running car.

Other than Dan Ticktum, there are only two other drivers who ever made it part of the way towards unrejectification: Salvador Durán and Neel Jani.

Aren't you glad you know all that now?

[dr-baker]

Aren't you glad you know all that now?

I am indeed, many thanks!

[CoopsII]

https://www.nme.com/features/tv-intervi ... -e-3471134

I mean, where else but here could I post this?

[dr-baker]

https://www.nme.com/features/tv-intervi ... -e-3471134

I mean, where else but here could I post this?

Here, perhaps?!

[CoopsII]

https://www.nme.com/features/tv-intervi ... -e-3471134

I mean, where else but here could I post this?

Here, perhaps?!

Nah, if I go back on there me and DinizInTheOven will only start being all trainspottery about the mighty Maiden again.

If you're reading this matey....

https://www.loudersound.com/news/watch- ... ingham-gig

[dr-baker]

https://www.nme.com/features/tv-intervi ... -e-3471134

I mean, where else but here could I post this?

Here, perhaps?!

Nah, if I go back on there me and DinizInTheOven will only start being all trainspottery about the mighty Maiden again.

You say that like it's a bad thing... Nerdery is good.

[dinizintheoven]

https://www.loudersound.com/news/watch- ... ingham-gig

That's exactly what I'd have done in his situation.

In tangentially related news, JayEmm suggests why Jaguar are in a hole and how they got there, while driving a 20-year-old X-Type. "It's not a real Jaaaaaaag, it's a Ford Mondeo in a Jaguar body", scream the critics. While the extensive reworking of the (admittedly very good) Mondeo underpinnings with a toned-down version of the S-Type styling was a much better job than GM did when rebadging the Opel Omega into the Cadillac Catera (with little more than a chip-cutter grille and a badge), the fact that everyone knew it was a Ford underneath meant that buyer in Jaguar's section of the market didn't view it as special enough. BMW and Merc could move downmarket (i.e. the 1-series and A-class) to get big volume sales and retain their prestige status, but in JayEmm's reckoning, Jaguar is not and never should have been a brand designed to take on the 3-series / C-class market segment, let alone the one below, and Ford just couldn't get their heads round that. To them, large numbers of sales equals success, small sales equals failure, end of discussion - whereas Jaguar should only ever be competing with two Mercedes models, the S-class and the SL. Thus, eventually, Ford and Jaguar had to divorce because of this massive difference in philosophy.

Something JayEmm never mentioned was that there was another brand that was once in the doomed British Leyland portfolio alongside Jaguar, and which could and should have been the one to do the job that Ford tried to make Jaguar do. It was also dreadfully mismanaged. And it is, or rather, was: Rover. Sir William Lyons kneecapped Rover in the 1970s because he thought the new models would tread on Jaguar's toes, and he wasn't going to have any of that. BL build quality saw off the rest of the bright future, the Triumph Acclaim and then its successor, the Rover-branded SD3, sealed Rover's fate as a brand popular with the over-50s rather than the young, thrusting executives who wanted a BMW. Of all sad words of tongue and pen, the saddest are these: it might have been. And it could, and should, have been Jaguar at the top, competing with the Merc S and SL, while Rover took on the might of BMW in the sectors below, against the 3-series and 5-series. And, eventually, the 1-series. Of course, Rover and BMW became entwined in a way that spelled death for the former, but that's a rant for another day.

So now, in the present, Jaguar find themselves as the slow-selling part of Jaguar Land Rover, at a time where everyone wants an SUV, or so it seems, and from JLR they'll choose the Land Rover, a brand where it would once have been unthinkable that a model like the Evoque would ever be made (or that Victoria Beckham would be involved with the styling, even in the most inconsequential way). It seems that nailing their colours to the electric-only mast was the only route for potential survival for three reasons: (1) to differentiate themselves from Land Rover; (2) to be able to produce new models that would justify the high purchase price of EVs, and (3) to cater to what The Critical Drinker would call "MODERN AUDIENCES!"

And, as JayEmm also pointed out, their model range is already aging and all these electric cars that will eventually fill the gaps aren't anywhere near ready yet. The chief problem, as far as Formula E is concerned, is that "win on Sunday, sell on Monday" doesn't quite work for them. For a start, it's "win on Saturday, sell on Monday, if two days isn't too far to remember on a single-race weekend and another team doesn't win on Sunday in a double-header". Far worse is that they don't have anything appropriate to sell on Monday. When Jaguar win in FE, what they really need to be able to sell is an electric F-Type... which they don't have. They can sell you a fatty, but nothing sporty. Porsche, on the other hand - who are also right up the sharp end now - will have a Taycan in the showroom that you can sign on the dotted line for, before anyone breaks for lunch. All right, so it's got four doors, but it's not the eyesore that the Panamera was, and if there's a safety car period in an FE race (which there usually will be), you can see it leading the field through the hideous amounts of debris that need sweeping away. Porsche can sell you a fatty as well, which some customers will opt for, but how many customers drove away in a new Taycan after a Werhlein or Da Costa win? No idea, but... some. Which is more than can be said for any Jaguar showroom.

I don't want to see JayEmm's prediction that Jaguar will be nothing more than a trim level for Land Rover. He gives Stellantis a verbal kicking as well for trying to crowbar the same type of cars into every one of their brands; why, he asks, does Maserati make SUVs when that should be Stellantis' brand that takes on the S and SL in the same way as Jaguar should be? All right, so Maserati couldn't sell an electric sports car the day after Max Not-Verstappen won in Jakarta - they don't have any electric cars at all, yet - but they don't need volume sales when there's Fiat 500s (both petrol and electric) leaving the factory by the hundreds of thousands. And amongst the Italian Stellantis brands there's a cautionary tale: it has been suggested than Lancia will become a trim level rather than a manufacturer sooner rather than later, despite the announcement that the brand is to be revived - and some would say that with the Zeta minivan in the mid-1990s, which was little more than a Fiat Ulysse with a Lancia grille, alcantara trim everywhere and a higher price tag, it's already happened once.

Mitch Evans can still win the FE title this year, and Jaguar can still be teams' champions. They might have to pin their hopes on Nick Cassidy and Envision doing the job for them, but it doesn't mean anywhere near as much in marketing terms to say "our drivetrain powered the FE champion team" than it does to say "WE WON" with the Jaguar logo visible all over the car. It's much more likely that Jake Dennis will take the drivers' title with Porsche power, though - he's got a good record at the rejectful Excel track.

I wonder what Sam Bird is going to make of this. He's biffed his team-mate off the track twice, and taken himself out in the process both times. It's cost Mitch and Jaguar a sackful of points. If anything, they should be leading both championships. And maybe, just maybe, failure to clean up in FE after Jaguar chose to bang the drum for electric cars to the exclusion of all else is what will kill the company. They must win, and one of their own drivers has prevented it from happening. But it seems that Sam may not have to care too much after all: according to The Race, he's signed for McLaren for next season, with Rene Rast - the driver who was McLaren's number one choice as soon as they'd announced their participation, making way. And yet, it's Rene who's scored McLaren's only podium. He's been given the Trulli treatment from 2004.

Elsewhere, Robin Frijns has jumped ship from the uncompetitive ABT Cupra and is going back to Envision, and in that car, he might even win again; Lucas di Grassi is staying for another year of pain with Mahindra, Oliver Rowland is looking for a comeback somewhere, and Adrien Tambay and Jehan Daruvala are in the running to be driver number 82 in the series.

[Barbazza]

I won't say anything about today's highly entertaining race in case there are those who still need to catch up, but just a general point: I am impressed by the suitable rejectfulness that Roberto Merhi has applied to his participation in the series.

[dinizintheoven]

I'll say nothing yet as well - that table of FE rejects will be forthcoming in a few days. As for Merhi... I reckon his problem, other than that he's got the slowest drivetrain on the grid, is that he hasn't worked out that FE requires a lot of energy saving and regeneration, and driving like Keke Rosberg circa 1986 is going to produce much the same results as Keke Rosberg circa 1986 - only, if Keke was still driving a car equivalent to the reticent Fittipaldi he had in 1981. As Lucas di Grassi is admirably demonstrating, you could put a former champion in that car and it would still fail miserably.

Something that casuals won't have noticed is that all the current 11 teams have been winners at some stage in their history, albeit under a different management in some cases. The top six teams have all won at least one race this year. Nissan started off as e.DAMS who threatened to do a Red Bull-style hatchet job on seasons 2 and 3 (search this thread for "BUEMIWINSLOL" if you've forgotten), McLaren took over from Mercedes EQ who took Nyck de Vries and Stoffel Vandoorne to the title in successive years, NIO started out as China Racing and somehow won the title with Nelson Piquet Jr. scoring two wins when it was supposed to have been a Buemi-di Grassi showdown, Mahindra were at their most competitive in seasons 3-4 and won five races, the last of them in season 7, and Abt Cupra is still the same Abt Sportsline organisation that took Lucas di Grassi to the season 3 title and has had 14 wins... though all of them were as the Audi works team, rather than Mahindra's customer.

If Techeetah make their rumoured comeback, that'll be 12 winning teams out of 12 - DS Penske are officially the continuation of Dragon Racing, and they had two wins in the first two seasons (and were second in the championship in season 1); and don't forget Techeetah started out as the mighty SUPER AGURI and had a win in season 1 themselves.

Meanwhile, in F1, Max Verstappen only has to turn up to win.