Grand Prix Rejects

James1978 wrote:Also Ronnie Peterson had #1 all through 1974, the first year of the system, as Jackie Stewart had retired but Lotus won the 1973 Constructors' Championship.
Would have been interesting to see what car number Badoer and Fisichella had got at Ferrari in 2009 had Timo Glock gone faster at the end of Brazil the previous year.

I think that, in that instance, it would have reverted to 0 on that car. In the case of Watson, there wasn't a precedent for what would happen but, given the precedent set by Damon Hill in 1993 and 1994, plus the fact that Massa was not in a fit state to return to the cockpit for the rest of that year, I guess that they would now renumbered the car with 0.

mario wrote:

James1978 wrote:Also Ronnie Peterson had #1 all through 1974, the first year of the system, as Jackie Stewart had retired but Lotus won the 1973 Constructors' Championship.
Would have been interesting to see what car number Badoer and Fisichella had got at Ferrari in 2009 had Timo Glock gone faster at the end of Brazil the previous year.

I think that, in that instance, it would have reverted to 0 on that car. In the case of Watson, there wasn't a precedent for what would happen but, given the precedent set by Damon Hill in 1993 and 1994, plus the fact that Massa was not in a fit state to return to the cockpit for the rest of that year, I guess that they would now renumbered the car with 0.

I don't think that counts as a precedent for the question. The question was about the champion being replaced mid-season and in those years there wasn't a champion to replace mid-season. And thus, the precedent to this should be Watson in 1985 and the replacement driver uses the number 1.

What if Eddie Jordan kept Barrichello, instead of replacing him, alongside with Fisichella, in 1997 season?

Vepe wrote:

mario wrote:

James1978 wrote:Also Ronnie Peterson had #1 all through 1974, the first year of the system, as Jackie Stewart had retired but Lotus won the 1973 Constructors' Championship.
Would have been interesting to see what car number Badoer and Fisichella had got at Ferrari in 2009 had Timo Glock gone faster at the end of Brazil the previous year.

I think that, in that instance, it would have reverted to 0 on that car. In the case of Watson, there wasn't a precedent for what would happen but, given the precedent set by Damon Hill in 1993 and 1994, plus the fact that Massa was not in a fit state to return to the cockpit for the rest of that year, I guess that they would now renumbered the car with 0.

I don't think that counts as a precedent for the question. The question was about the champion being replaced mid-season and in those years there wasn't a champion to replace mid-season. And thus, the precedent to this should be Watson in 1985 and the replacement driver uses the number 1.

Just imagine, Luca Badoer driving car #1

redbulljack14 wrote:
Just imagine, Luca Badoer driving car #1

Too rejecful tto imagine...

But aanyway, for some reason that can't be explained, I went to Grand-Am website and watched the first 2 hours of this year's Daytona 24 and it got me thinking...

What if Grand-Am never made the decicion of introducing Daytona Prototypes? How would've the series managed and would've there been a unification of Grand-Am and ALMS?

Dj_bereta wrote:What if Eddie Jordan kept Barrichello, instead of replacing him, alongside with Fisichella, in 1997 season?

A strong 5th in WCC, with around 50 points.

What if Senna wasn't allowed to leave his Toleman contract for 1985. Who might have taken his Lotus seat (Warwick maybe? assuming he could get out of Renault). Also might Senna's subsequent career path have ended differently? Or would he have still ended up at Lotus for 1986?

In 1991(I think), Al Unser Jr. tested for Williams, what if he got a seat for 1992?

darkapprentice77 wrote:In 1991(I think), Al Unser Jr. tested for Williams, what if he got a seat for 1992?

Yikes, talk about crashes everywhere...

Seriously, I doubt he could have better than Mansell or Patrese. Very unlikely that he could have gotten a seat there, as both were very solid drivers.

Just had a "what if"
What if Mansell came to his senses and stayed in F1 in 1993? I don't think he would have appreciated Prost coming in very well, so where else could he have gone? Certainly someone would want to hire the defending world champion?

What if Mika Hakkinen had got the Williams seat in 1993? Would he have been world champion sooner? Or not at all? Obviously he would have played second fiddle to Prost in '93, but would he have been able to take on Senna in the same team?

darkapprentice77 wrote:In 1991(I think), Al Unser Jr. tested for Williams, what if he got a seat for 1992?

Scott Goodyear does the unthinkable in the Indy 500 obviously by starting dead last and then winning. The problem is that it was highly unlikely Unser would have gotten the seat in the first place or if he did it was because Mansell considered Al Jr. as not a threat to his #1 seat.

(Once again, apologies if said before!)

Apparently, for 1996 Mark Blundell was rumoured for the Sauber drive in 1996 beside Frentzen. (They almost crashed in Australia 1995 though!)

What would have happened if Blundell got the drive. Where would Johnny Herbert be in 1996?

What would have happened if TWR did not buy Arrows. Would Arrows continue in 1997 (they struggled early in 1996 with lack of sponsors). Would Ligier be more competitive in 1997?

What would have happened had Gabriele Rumi did not invest in Minardi in late 1996? Would Minardi still exist in 1997?

What if Alain Prost hadn't gone Williams for 1993? - Then Mansell would have 2 world championships
What if Benetton's illegal devices hadn't been found? Schumacher would have still won the championship
What if Schumacher hadn't gone to Ferrari? Ferrari would have gone bust
What if Jacques Villeneuve had stayed in America? then DC might have been world champion
What if Damon Hill had stayed at Williams for 1997? He would be a double WC
What if Michael Schumacher hadn't crashed at Silverstone 1999? Then he might have been WC
What if Barrichello hadn't let Schumacher past at Austria 2002? Barrichello would have been fired
What if Verstappen hadn't spun off at Brazil 2003? the engine would have blown
What if Ralf hadn't crashed in practice for US 2005? Chaos and all the tyres blow and there could have been a death
What if Alonso hadn't felt McLaren were favoriting Hamilton?- He would have stayed there and won more championships
What if Timo Glock had 'accidentally' slid in to Hamilton as he passed him at Brazil? Then Massa would have been WC and Glock would have been a Ferrari (or Sauber Driver)

AND FINALLY What if Honda hadn't been bought, and Button and Barrichello's careers were effectively over? Vettel would have won 4 WC in a row

rachel1990 wrote:What if Verstappen hadn't spun off at Brazil 2003? the engine would have blown

If memory serves me correct, he was ahead of Fisichella by the time he became the next victim of the turn 3 madness, was fuelled to the brim beforehand, and was already in the points. Just think, a plausable Minardi victory, had his car kept running, and we asume that everything else that happened that race still occured.

It makes sad thinking how close this came to being reality.

Alternatively, could Button have won the race? Because by the time he crashed at turn 3, I believe he was fuelled to the end of the race, and with his tyre abilities, I doubt he would have needed to pit again.

Stramala [kostas22] wrote:What if Mika Hakkinen had got the Williams seat in 1993? Would he have been world champion sooner? Or not at all? Obviously he would have played second fiddle to Prost in '93, but would he have been able to take on Senna in the same team?

He'd have partnered Prost for 1993 as second driver to him, but he learns some of his tricks during the year. Wins races still.
Prost retires in 1994, Senna joins. His death still happens, Mika gets promoted to lead driver, and in the same way to the Kato-Gibernau relation in MotoGP in early 2003, Häkkinen gets mentally boosted, and wrecks Schumacher's title aspirations in 1994. Coulthard joins mid-1994, Mansell's return to Williams never happens - they are fairly comfortable in both championships that season.
Coulthard doesn't get a chance at the title in 1995, Mika wins that one. Coulthard gets the boot, Villeneuve joins for 1996. DC goes to McLaren, joining Brundle, who stayed on when the Mercedes engines joined. Mansell never went to McLaren, instead we have a third team with the Brundle-Blundell lineup, making Japanese commentators' life a little more tougher. Blundell leaves McLaren to CART before 1996's season starts.
Coincidentally, Schumacher does NOT join Ferrari after 1995, so we will have a team roster like this:

WILLIAMS
Mika Häkkinen - Jacques Villeneuve

BENETTON
Michael Schumacher - Johnny Herbert (stays on, as Ligier doesn't want to hire him)

FERRARI
Jean Alesi - Gerhard Berger

MCLAREN
Martin Brundle - David Coulthard

In 1996, this happens:
- Mika wins his third title in a row. Villeneuve gets trounced like there's no tomorrow.
- Schumacher finishes only third in the WDC, Benetton finishes second.
- Ferrari has a dismal year, no victories, and McLaren beats them to third on sheer consistency.
- Berger decides he has had enough of Ferrari's inability to win, and promptly retires.
- Alesi stays at Ferrari, because his loyality to the Prancing Horse is still there.

1997, and we have quite some changes:

WILLIAMS
Mika Häkkinen - Jacques Villeneuve
Mika is preparing to score his fourth title in a row. Jacques gets another chance, Sir Frank Williams believes in him.

BENETTON
Michael Schumacher - Jarno Trulli
Now this is a little upsetting: Schumacher, still having not scored a WDC, is now concentrating on Renault's final "factory" year with all he got. Brawn is still there in the background. Trulli joins Benetton after winning the German F3.

MCLAREN
Martin Brundle - David Coulthard
Damon Hill never got into any of F1's top teams - now he's the test driver for McLaren, who gets a valuable asset during this season. One certain A. Newey, who'll play an important role from 1998... Brundle and Coulthard has performed together very well, their relationship is something like a master-student role.

FERRARI
Jean Alesi - Rubens Barrichello (!)
Jean gets Rubens as his teammate - the young Brazilian was at Jordan for four seasons, and is now ready for a top drive. Will Ferrari actually be capable of winning this season?

- Prost still buys Ligier. Panis-Nakano still are there.
- Jordan gets Ralf Schumacher and... Verstappen! Eddie Jordan thinks Jos the Boss will drive the team forward.
(Irvine? his 1996 performance delegates him to test driver role)
- Arrows doesn't get Damon Hill. Diniz is there, and is joined by Nicola Larini.

STEWART
Sir JYS debuts this season, but now he does not have Rubens with him. Magnussen is not joined by Verstappen this year, instead it's Ralph Firman.

Who's driving for Tyrrell and Minardi?
Tyrrell: Salo - Rosset, Minardi: Fisichella - Marquez

Williams and Häkkinen scores four on the trot! Mika holds the title in his hands very strongly. Villeneuve can only back him up. Brundle and Coulthard are scoring some podiums and wins, and in the end, Benetton only finishes third in the WCC.

1. Williams
2. McLaren - reliability issues still happened
3. Benetton - Trulli surprisingly competitive, winning the Austrian and German GP!
4. Ferrari - Barrichello takes lead role with Alesi seemingly unmotivational...

1. Häkkinen
2. Villeneuve
3. Brundle
4. Coulthard
5. Schumacher
6. Barrichello
7. Trulli
8. Alesi

Panis' accident still happens, Nakano gets... de la Rosa as his team mate!? Wow Alain...

1998, new rules.
Newey goes to McLaren. Brundle retires. Häkkinen, having worked closely together with Newey, jumps ship to McLaren! Coulthard stays with the Woking squad.
Alesi leaves Ferrari. He doesn't want to waste his years with them, and when Montezemolo hears this comment, he immediately boots Alesi off the team. Alesi doesn't go to Sauber neither; Montezemolo doesn't let this happen! Barrichello gets Salo as his team-mate, after several good performances in the Tyrrell. Jean Todt and Montezemolo says they have a dynamite pairing for 1998. Two young drivers hungry for victories - this can end well...
Benetton still has Schumacher and Trulli with them. Michael seems to be disappointed with his Benetton stint, but stays for one more season, hoping for the best.

Upside down lineup indeed for 1998:

McLaren: Häkkinen-Coulthard, but with Mika having scored 4 titles already!
Williams: Villeneuve-Ralf Schumacher - Ralf outscored Verstappen, despite crashing often in 1997. Sir Frank gives the nod for the young German.
Benetton: M. Schumacher-Trulli, Wurz is third driver
Ferrari: Barrichello-Salo
Jordan: Verstappen-Nakano (yes, as part of the engine deal, Shinji gets a racing seat, but Eddie trusts him, unlike Nakano's previous team boss...)
Prost: Panis-de la Rosa
Sauber: Herbert-Irvine
Arrows: Diniz-Takagi
Stewart: Firman-Magnussen
Tyrrell: Rosset-... and another paydriver, don't know who
Minardi: Fisichella-Tuero

Mika wins 1998, but gets defeated by Barrichello in 1999!
I might continue this later.

Shizuka wrote:Coincidentally, Schumacher does NOT join Ferrari after 1995, so we will have a team roster like this:

Nor do I see him staying at Benetton. Benetton post-95 was not a happy place to be, so chances are Schumacher would have jumped ship anyway, most likely to McLaren due to his earlier association with Mercedes in Endurance Racing.

Wizzie wrote:Nor do I see him staying at Benetton. Benetton post-95 was not a happy place to be, so chances are Schumacher would have jumped ship anyway, most likely to McLaren due to his earlier association with Mercedes in Endurance Racing.

Wasn't that mainly because Ferrari had ravaged Benetton's technical staff to give Schumacher ideal working conditions? If the Schumacher switch never happened, would that massive turnover of personnel still happen?

Since you are mentioning Mercedes though, I got one "What If?" on my own: what if Ralf Schumacher became McLaren test driver (as it was being considered) instead of going to Jordan in 1997?

Klon wrote:

Wizzie wrote:Nor do I see him staying at Benetton. Benetton post-95 was not a happy place to be, so chances are Schumacher would have jumped ship anyway, most likely to McLaren due to his earlier association with Mercedes in Endurance Racing.

Wasn't that mainly because Ferrari had ravaged Benetton's technical staff to give Schumacher ideal working conditions? If the Schumacher switch never happened, would that massive turnover of personnel still happen?

Possibly because they may have lost the Renault engines in 1997

Wizzie wrote:

Shizuka wrote:Coincidentally, Schumacher does NOT join Ferrari after 1995, so we will have a team roster like this:

Nor do I see him staying at Benetton. Benetton post-95 was not a happy place to be, so chances are Schumacher would have jumped ship anyway, most likely to McLaren due to his earlier association with Mercedes in Endurance Racing.

Aww, I wanted to write that in "part two" that Schumacher joins McLaren-Mercedes

What if Montoya stayed in CART for 2001?

what if hakkinen didnt retire at the end of 2001?

Heres an interesting one. What if Sir Frank Williams pulled his finger out, and offered Fisichella a drive at Williams for 2005? (During summer 2004, Fisico stalled his move to Renault to see if Williams would offer him a seat. Of course, Williams didn't believing they had Button under lock and key for 05. Oh, the fools...) Anyway, with Fisichella and Webber at Williams, how would they have done in 05, who would partner Alonso and where would Heidfeld be?

takagi_for_the_win wrote:Heres an interesting one. What if Sir Frank Williams pulled his finger out, and offered Fisichella a drive at Williams for 2005? (During summer 2004, Fisico stalled his move to Renault to see if Williams would offer him a seat. Of course, Williams didn't believing they had Button under lock and key for 05. Oh, the fools...) Anyway, with Fisichella and Webber at Williams, how would they have done in 05, who would partner Alonso and where would Heidfeld be?

Heidfeld would've walked the title for Renault by finishing 2nd at every single race in 2005. Including the USGP, somehow.

inoue3210 wrote:what if hakkinen didnt retire at the end of 2001?

Raikkonen would have become the Ferrari test driver for 2002, making Heidfeld the first in line to replace Mika at McLaren. While Hakkinen may have won a few races, being absolutely destroyed by Ferrari would have been the last straw for him, and he probably would have retired at the end of 2002 anyway with Heidfeld as his replacement.

Meanwhile, absolutely furious with the team orders debacle after Austria, Barrichello and Ferrari part ways at the end of the year, leaving Raikkonen to take the second seat. Kimi ends up costing Schumacher crucial points during the 2003 season, and with Heidfeld being unable to drag quite as much out of the old MP4-17 than what Raikkonen managed to achieve, Montoya ends up winning the title despite having his horror run near the end of the year.

Klon wrote:

Wizzie wrote:Nor do I see him staying at Benetton. Benetton post-95 was not a happy place to be, so chances are Schumacher would have jumped ship anyway, most likely to McLaren due to his earlier association with Mercedes in Endurance Racing.

Wasn't that mainly because Ferrari had ravaged Benetton's technical staff to give Schumacher ideal working conditions? If the Schumacher switch never happened, would that massive turnover of personnel still happen?

There had been pressure on Schumacher earlier in his career from Mercedes to join Sauber when they were using the Ilmor-Mercedes engine, but he resisted their pressure. I am pretty sure that Mercedes did try to push Schumacher towards McLaren in later years, so the idea of Schumacher racing for them instead of Ferrari isn't entirely out of the question.

As for the question of hiring technical staff from Benetton, maybe Ferrari might not have hired as many people from them as they did but, given that they would have been desperate to turn their fortunes around, I imagine that they would have tried hiring a number of their senior staff.
They'd already hired Willem Toet to become their Head of Aerodynamics at the end of the 1994 season (i.e. before Schumacher moved to Ferrari), and with their relationship with Barnard breaking down over his refusal to move to Italy and integrate his design team with the main operations at Maranello, they might have looked to hire more members of Benetton's outfit given Toet's links to the team and its senior staff.

Part 2.

In 1998, Häkkinen has a pretty much superior McLaren in his hands, so he scores his fifth championship. His WDC rival is Rubens Barrichello, who drives Ferrari forward - both drivers have a fairly competitive team-mate, but Coulthard and Salo still finish a long way behind them. Schumacher and Trulli cannot achieve more than best of the rest status. Benetton's Renault engine deal officially ended - so as Williams' - so it became a fairly processional year for them. Behind these three teams, there is a huge battle down to the wire for 4th in the WCC, but Jordan takes it with their second-spec Mugen-Honda engine, and Frentzen's feedback as test driver also helps a lot.

1999:
McLaren: Häkkinen-Coulthard, Mika announces his retirement before the 1999 season starts, so this is the Finn's final year. McLaren also announces his replacement: one certain Michael Schumacher...
Ferrari: Barrichello-Salo - no changes here, well, there is one actually: Fisichella is their third driver
Benetton: M. Schumacher-Trulli
Jordan: Frentzen-Nakano
Williams: Ralf Schumacher-Zanardi
Sauber: Irvine-Herbert
Prost: Panis-Sarrazin
Arrows: de la Rosa-Takagi
Stewart: Wurz-Verstappen
Minardi: Badoer-Gené
BAR: Villeneuve-Zonta

Ferrari finally gets it right! Barrichello has gelled together with the Italian team perfectly, and just edges out Mika Häkkinen for the WDC, but they get a surprise dark horse in the Jordan of Frentzen: having spent a year as a test driver actually helped him a lot. Salo beats DC to fourth, so Ferrari does the double in 1999. Schumacher drives the aging Benetton to fifth, Nakano is 6th, Ralf is 7th. The two Stewarts being marred are 8th and 10th (Verstappen is the lead driver), Trulli finishes 9th.

And I'll write 2000- later. I can say that a certain boring German gets a debut in a McLaren next to Schumacher, Ferrari gives a young Italian a seat, the Ford buyout does not happen yet, and so on...

Shizuka, please excuse me if I've missed it, but who did Frentzen drive for before 1999? And did Damon Hill only ever test in that world?

James1978 wrote:Shizuka, please excuse me if I've missed it, but who did Frentzen drive for before 1999? And did Damon Hill only ever test in that world?

Frentzen stayed with Sauber until 1997, loyalty to Peter mainly. Goes to Jordan as test driver in 1998.
And yes, Damon pretty much stuck in test driver role in this scenario.

Shizuka wrote: I can say that a certain boring German gets a debut in a McLaren next to Schumacher, Ferrari gives a young Italian a seat, the Ford buyout does not happen yet, and so on...

I'm going to guess that the "boring German" is Heidfeld, and the young Italian is either Trulli or Fisichella.

Yes!

So, part 3.

Lineup for 2000:

Ferrari
1 Rubens Barrichello
2 Giancarlo Fisichella
T Luca Badoer
Ferrari has won both titles, breaking the 20-year WDC curse, Barrichello now has number 1 on his car. He also has a new team-mate, as Fisichella gets promoted to the second seat, as Salo has left the team.

McLaren-Mercedes
3 Michael Schumacher
4 Nick Heidfeld
T Olivier Panis
A new beginning for the Woking squad. Schumacher is now driving for McLaren, in return for the Mercedes sports car effort. His rookie team-mate is one highly regarded young German: Nick Heidfeld will drive car number four. With two Germans on board, McLaren might fight back this year...

Jordan-Mugen-Honda
5 Heinz-Harald Frentzen
6 Jarno Trulli
T Shinji Nakano
Seems real, but this is a little different. EJ doesn't think they can fright the big boys like last season, but he thinks they could be best of the rest. Frentzen gets Trulli as his team-mate - just like in real life 2000. Honda doesn't force EJ to let Nakano drive, as BAR gets factory units.

Benetton-(Renault)
7 Antonio Pizzonia
8 Jenson Button
T Mark Webber
And what IS Briattore doing? He has completed the Renault buyout, and he gives two rookies a seat!? Although both drivers look fairly impressive: Pizzonia and Button might need soem time to learn the grips though...

Stewart-Ford
9 Jos Verstappen
10 David Coulthard
T Luciano Burti
A Scottish driver in a Scottish team - makes all sense from the outside. Coulthard was thrown out of the team after McLaren announced Heidfeld's promotion in mid-1999, so DC made talks with Sir JYS... and made a deal. Will the reliability finally be BETTER?

Williams-BMW
11 Ralf Schumacher
12 Juan-Pablo Montoya
T Jörg Müller
Sir Frank doesn't talk his team up: sure, he has his next new hope in car #12, but everyone thinks this is just a learning year. How can the team cope with two drivers hungry for victories?

Prost-Peugeot
14 Stéphane Sarrazin
15 Jean Alesi
What...? The old Ferrari team-mates are now in a team boss-driver situation? Yes - Alesi left Sauber to join Prost. Panis went to McLaren, but Sarrazin stayed. Will they end up higher than seventh?

Sauber-(Ferrari)
16 Johnny Herbert
17 Mika Salo
T Kimi Räikkönen
Poor Mika got farmed out to Sauber, as Fisichella claimed his Ferrari seat. Peter Sauber still gladly welcomed Salo, who might help the team with the tricks he learnt at Ferrari. Cheap engines also help. Johnny considers retirement after this season... and then there is a young Finn driver in the test driver role...

Arrows-(Renault)
18 Pedro de la Rosa
19 Bruno Junqueira
Arrows got Supertec engines from Briatore, who basically sells off his last non-factory Renault engines. Sneaky, but understandable. PdlR gets a rookie team-mate, and they seem to be positive about 2000.

Minardi-Ford
20 Marc Gené
21 Gaston Mazzacane
T Fernando Alonso
They didn't manage to get the latest Ford units, but the 1999 engines are still an improvement. They might score points in attrition...

BAR-Honda
22 Jacques Villeneuve
23 Riccardo Zonta
BAR's 1999 campaign was literally pointless. They WILL be better this year...

So basically, we have a pretty upside down grid. Can Barrichello defend his title against the German opposition? Can Williams, Jordan and Stewart intrude?

Not really.

Schumacher quickly gets used to the McLaren environment, and nicely pays Mercedes back their help with scoring the WDC. Heidfeld is fairly quick out of the box, but cannot really oppose Michael, but still, his contribution earns McLaren the WCC too.
Barrichello and Fisichella cannot resist the McLaren dominance, and end up third and fourth.
Fifth place is a four-way battle between Frentzen, Coulthard, Ralf and Villeneuve - all of them has their good moments in the season, but in the end, consistency is the key - and Coulthard picks up 5th. Frentzen's Jordan is unreliable, Ralf got involved in some accidents, and JV has had some off days, which cost him a lot.

Benetton's intra-team battle was fairly close, but Button just outpaces Jungle Boy (but not by a lot), Prost wasted their year (and basically killed Stéphane's career in the process), Arrows regularly finishes in the top 10, and Sauber gives up 2000 mid-season. Minardi, with their better engine, scores points in Melbourne and on the A1-Ring.

WDC:
1. M. Schumacher
2. Heidfeld
3. Barrichello
4. Fisichella
5. Coulthard
6. R. Schumacher
7. Villeneuve
8. Frentzen
9. Verstappen
10. Trulli

WCC:
1. McLaren
2. Ferrari
3. Stewart (!)
4. Williams
5. Jordan
6. BAR
7. Arrows
8. Benetton
9. Sauber
10. Minardi
11. Prost (0 points all year)

For 2001, there aren't a lot of changes. McLaren, Ferrari, Williams, and Jordan will keep their line-up, but Iceman, the Aussie Grit and a certain Spanish gets a debut.

What if the Seb had disobeyed teamorders when both RBR drivers were running 9th & 10th?

Would there have been such a big deal made about afterwards?

Should it matter what positions the RBR drivers were in when a teamorder was disobeyed? Since the crime is exactly the same.

go_Rubens wrote:

Shizuka wrote: I can say that a certain boring German gets a debut in a McLaren next to Schumacher, Ferrari gives a young Italian a seat, the Ford buyout does not happen yet, and so on...

I'm going to guess that the "boring German" is Heidfeld, and the young Italian is either Trulli or Fisichella.

In "The Iceman Waiteth" the boring German has not done too badly in his debut year for McLaren!

ibsey wrote:What if the Seb had disobeyed teamorders when both RBR drivers were running 9th & 10th?

Would there have been such a big deal made about afterwards?

Should it matter what positions the RBR drivers were in when a teamorder was disobeyed? Since the crime is exactly the same.

Probably not - although, as you say, we'd still have seen Vettel end up ahead of Webber, the consequences and longer term ramifications would be much smaller, and the fuss made by the media would probably be more limited too.

With 9th and 10th separated by a single point, there would have only been a small benefit to Vettel for disobeying the order - certainly not enough of a benefit to swing things towards Vettel in any significant way, such that it is possible that Vettel might have, had it been the case that he and Webber were running in 9th and 10th, stuck with the team orders since the benefit of passing Webber would probably be too small compared to the potential risk of a crash.
By contrast, Vettel's move in Malaysia now sees him leading the championship and establishes himself as the lead driver within the team, whereas, had he stuck with those team orders, it would be Mark who would be leading the WDC (they'd be tied on points but Webber would lead by virtue of having won a race) and there wouldn't be a clear lead driver within the team.

The risk-reward ratio was therefore much more attractive for Vettel, especially with Kimi struggling further down the field, Alonso out of the race and Hamiton unable to present any threat because he was short on fuel - the net result has shifted the WDC in his direction as it has now put a much larger gap between himself and his rivals, whereas, had he and Webber been battling over one more point, the wider ramifications would have been less noticeable.
Equally, from Webber's point of view, I think it is the impact of the move that hurt as much as the actual move itself - I don't think that Webber would have cared so much if he'd just lost out on a point rather than a victory due to the accolades and the impact a victory would have had on his hopes for taking the WDC.

On top of that, in a sport that is so strongly geared towards the mantra of "to the victor, the spoils", the focus on the winner of the race is so strong that anything that makes a victory contentious will naturally become the focus of the media and paddock - particular when there might be those within other teams that hope to use this incident as leverage in their mind games against both of Red Bull's drivers.

I've just completed the 2002 season in "The Iceman Waiteth". Another world championship for Michael Schumacher, but a good debut season at McLaren for Nick Heidfeld, who took two wins on his way to third in the championship. Also, an impressive debut season from Kimi Raikkonen, who took one third place and sixteen points.

darkapprentice77 wrote:What if Montoya stayed in CART for 2001?

He may have never left and probably have 4 Indy 500 wins.

Here's a thought. What if, all religious beliefs aside, there was a life after death, and you could choose to "live on" at the age you want to, without growing older?

Let's assume you have no idea of knowing what's going on in this world apart from other people arriving with information about what's happening down (or up) here. My question is: what would deceased racing drivers be up to these days?

tommykl wrote:Here's a thought. What if, all religious beliefs aside, there was a life after death, and you could choose to "live on" at the age you want to, without growing older?

Let's assume you have no idea of knowing what's going on in this world apart from other people arriving with information about what's happening down (or up) here. My question is: what would deceased racing drivers be up to these days?

I don't know, but it would probably make a great sitcom.

tommykl wrote:Here's a thought. What if, all religious beliefs aside, there was a life after death, and you could choose to "live on" at the age you want to, without growing older?

Let's assume you have no idea of knowing what's going on in this world apart from other people arriving with information about what's happening down (or up) here. My question is: what would deceased racing drivers be up to these days?

James Hunt would probably still party hard every day

This wrote:

tommykl wrote:Here's a thought. What if, all religious beliefs aside, there was a life after death, and you could choose to "live on" at the age you want to, without growing older?

Let's assume you have no idea of knowing what's going on in this world apart from other people arriving with information about what's happening down (or up) here. My question is: what would deceased racing drivers be up to these days?

James Hunt would probably still party hard every day

Colin Chapman would be designing legendary cars with underweight parts without fear of driver deaths. Gilles Villeneuse will try one, destroy it within a lap, hop into a new one, and head straight out again for another try.

tommykl wrote:Here's a thought. What if, all religious beliefs aside, there was a life after death, and you could choose to "live on" at the age you want to, without growing older?

Let's assume you have no idea of knowing what's going on in this world apart from other people arriving with information about what's happening down (or up) here. My question is: what would deceased racing drivers be up to these days?

I bet Peter Revson would be on Forbes lists of richest people for the Revlon fortune, and I wouldn't be shocked if Mike Mosley was living out in the California desert near Kevin Cogan's place in that what if scenario.