Grand Prix Rejects

What if von Trips hadn't died at the 1961 Italian GP?
What if Schumacher had managed to take out Villeneuve's car at the 1997 European GP?
What if Williams and Toyota hadn't been disqualified at the 2004 Canadian GP?
What if Hamilton hadn't lost his pole position at the 2012 Spanish GP?

ryangregg12345 wrote:What if Schumacher had managed to take out Villeneuve's car at the 1997 European GP?

He still would've been DSQed from the championship and Villeneuve still would've won. Where are you going with this?

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:

ryangregg12345 wrote:What if Schumacher had managed to take out Villeneuve's car at the 1997 European GP?

He still would've been DSQed from the championship and Villeneuve still would've won. Where are you going with this?

I'm actually not sure of that. Disqualifying the runner-up was easa, Schumacher and the Ferrari weren't interested in a second place anyway - it would have been a far more problematic and even more controversial issue had Schumi succeeded in his shameful try.

QuickYoda41 wrote:

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:

ryangregg12345 wrote:What if Schumacher had managed to take out Villeneuve's car at the 1997 European GP?

He still would've been DSQed from the championship and Villeneuve still would've won. Where are you going with this?

I'm actually not sure of that. Disqualifying the runner-up was easa, Schumacher and the Ferrari weren't interested in a second place anyway - it would have been a far more problematic and even more controversial issue had Schumi succeeded in his shameful try.

Actually, I disagree - had Schumacher succeeded, I would think he would have been given a much harsher penalty than he was, purely because it would have mattered.

This should really go in unpopular opinions I suppose, but since it's related to Villeneuve/Schumacher at Jerez 1997, then I might as well stick it here.

Basically, I was thinking about that incident, and to be honest, the way Jacques stuffed it down the inside, going over the grass and kerb in order to do so, suggests that the two would have come together anyway, regardless of whether Schumacher turned in or not.

I'm not defending Michael here by any stretch of the imagination, but when you look at the onboard from Jacques' car, it seems to me that contact was inevitable.

So returning to the "what if" theme, what if Schumacher hadn't deliberately turned in, and the two had come together? Would both cars have survived the impact? And if so, would Villeneuve still have come out on top?

AndreaModa wrote:This should really go in unpopular opinions I suppose, but since it's related to Villeneuve/Schumacher at Jerez 1997, then I might as well stick it here.

Basically, I was thinking about that incident, and to be honest, the way Jacques stuffed it down the inside, going over the grass and kerb in order to do so, suggests that the two would have come together anyway, regardless of whether Schumacher turned in or not.

I'm not defending Michael here by any stretch of the imagination, but when you look at the onboard from Jacques' car, it seems to me that contact was inevitable.

So returning to the "what if" theme, what if Schumacher hadn't deliberately turned in, and the two had come together? Would both cars have survived the impact? And if so, would Villeneuve still have come out on top?

The line of Villeneuve would made contact inevitable in that corner whether Schumacher had deliberately turned in or not. I'm fairly certain that it could have resulted in both cars continuing at least to the next corner although I don't know what damage to the nosecone and tires may have had in the alternate outcome.

What if Ivan Capelli hadn't seemingly had his spirit broken, by going to Ferrari in 1992?

How differently might his career have turned out? (not sure what his alternative options were for 1992, but would be interesting to find out)

What if Sterling Moss didn't have his near-fatal accident in 1962?

DOSBoot wrote:What if Sterling Moss didn't have his near-fatal accident in 1962?

At the time that Moss had his accident, Rob Walker was tying up a deal with Enzo Ferrari which would have seen Ferrari give the team the latest version of the 156, plus full technical support from the works team and the latest updates too, provided that Moss was driving the car. At the very least, therefore, both Moss and Rob Walker could have probably expected much better results than they had with the ageing Lotus 24 that he had to make do with at around that time, even if the 156 was slightly declining in competitiveness compared to Lotus and BRM's cars at the time.

As for the longer term, well, that is a little more ambiguous - although Moss has previously been on bad terms with Enzo Ferrari, the relationship between them had improved markedly by that time and Enzo was quite keen on hiring Moss. Plausibly, therefore, in the longer term Moss might have moved to the Ferrari works team, perhaps in 1963 when he might have moved to Ferrari instead of Surtees. That could well have seen Moss potentially take the title in 1964 instead of Surtees, or at least mounted a serious bid for the WDC that year (I imagine that Moss would have had a similar level of success as Surtees did).
I imagine that Moss probably would have then stayed on at Ferrari until the late 1960's in that instance, driving for them for the first few years of the 3 litre formula, and also in their sports car program (Bandini doubled up in both series, as did Surtees - so he'd probably have driven at Le Mans a few more times), before probably then retiring from F1 towards the end of that decade.

ibsey wrote:What if Ivan Capelli hadn't seemingly had his spirit broken, by going to Ferrari in 1992?

How differently might his career have turned out? (not sure what his alternative options were for 1992, but would be interesting to find out)

Ferrari is satisfied with Gianni Morbidelli's performance at Adelaide and he gets full-time drive for 1992. Capelli goes to Scuderia Italia to partner JJ Lehto, while Martini stays with Minardi, partnered by reigning F3000 champion Christian Fittipaldi.

Capelli has quite similar season as Martini had in real-life, taking few points. He stays on for 1993 but the new Lola chassis leaves him fading. He shows being better than his team-mate Badoer, but neither of them gets drive for 1994.

Capelli is without drive at the beginning of 1994, but he is picked up by Jordan for three races while Irvine is suspended. He uses his opportunity well and goes to Sauber for the remainder of the season to replace injured Wendlinger. He is overshadowed by Frentzen but scores five points for the team, including a podium at Hockenheim. Sauber relies on Wendlinger for 1995 so Capelli has to find a job elsewhere. He goes to Arrows but the team is shy of money and puts him off mid-season. He turns his intentions to Champ Cars and moves to America for 1996. He drives a total of five years and wins two races, before retiring from motor racing.

Bleu wrote:

ibsey wrote:What if Ivan Capelli hadn't seemingly had his spirit broken, by going to Ferrari in 1992?

How differently might his career have turned out? (not sure what his alternative options were for 1992, but would be interesting to find out)

Ferrari is satisfied with Gianni Morbidelli's performance at Adelaide and he gets full-time drive for 1992. Capelli goes to Scuderia Italia to partner JJ Lehto, while Martini stays with Minardi, partnered by reigning F3000 champion Christian Fittipaldi.

Capelli has quite similar season as Martini had in real-life, taking few points. He stays on for 1993 but the new Lola chassis leaves him fading. He shows being better than his team-mate Badoer, but neither of them gets drive for 1994.

Actually, wasn't Martini the next in line to get the Ferrari drive for 1992 after Capelli?

What I have read yes, Martini was next in line.

Saying that though, I think they wanted Nannini, but they offered him a poor deal so literally told them (Ferrari) where to go. If Nannini did join Ferrari, Capelli would have gone to Scuderia Italia Dallara, and Martini would stay at Minardi.

Did Tyrrell get any 'compensation' as they do now for Alesi joining?

Modena was linked to the drive too.

A lot of drivers were linked to everywhere those days!

My take: Capelli stays at Ferrari until 1995, partnered by Gerhard Berger in a very experienced team. Capelli score a handful of podiums, but still fails to win and retired. World Champion Michael Schumacher takes over partnered by Eddie Irvine.

David AGS wrote:What I have read yes, Martini was next in line.

Saying that though, I think they wanted Nannini, but they offered him a poor deal so literally told them (Ferrari) where to go. If Nannini did join Ferrari, Capelli would have gone to Scuderia Italia Dallara, and Martini would stay at Minardi.

I assume that was all before the career-ending helicopter crash for Nannini, correct?

Which brings up a big what if in itself; what if Nannini never had the crash? How would his career have progressed after 1990?

Wizzie,

Yes indeed.

Nannini continues in 1991 beside Piquet but results are not like 1990, despite that Piquet has a lucky win, but Nannini fails to score a podium mainly due to reliability issues. Meanwhile, Benetton sign Michael Schumacher 'on a long term contract' from Jordan, but finishes the season at the Irish team. The German joins in 1992.

Piquet is sacked by Briatoire and Nannini just survives the cut. The Italian goes on to win the Belgium Grand Prix, amongst a few good results to end up with 42 points for 6th overall, but the 'team wants more' considering Schumacher, on consistent results (but no win!) who finished 4th overall. Brundle takes the drive in 1993 as Riccardo Patrese is forced to join Ligier due to 'contractual agreements' with Renault and Elf.

Meanwhile despite rumours linking to Ferrari, Tyrrell and the new Lola Ferrari team, Nannini goes home and signs a 1 year deal with Minardi. The Minardi is a good car, but Nannini fails to score a point and retires as a driver mid season but stays on as a consultant.

Btw, after reading AGS (brilliant work by 'bigears'), what would have happened if Philippe Streiff did not have that terrible accident in Brazil in 1989?

What if Carlos Pace wasn't killed in a plane crash?

DOSBoot wrote:What if Carlos Pace wasn't killed in a plane crash?

I would see about twelve more podiums and a few more wins at most given his age of 33, his track record, and the ground effects cars that really started ramping up in the late 1970s and early 1980s right after his death. How he took to the increasing ground effects is unknown and prevents me from giving much more than that much.

What if Sebastian Vettel drove for Ferrari?

wmetcalf68 wrote:What if Sebastian Vettel drove for Ferrari?

Then Red Bull couldn't drop Webber without plummeting really far down the order, Vettel would still probably win the championship, Alonso would do worse than previously, and Massa would go back home. Maybe "what if Vettel was picked up by Ferrari's/McLaren's young driver program" would be a better question.

What if Junqueira, and not Button, got the Williams drive in 2000?

ryangregg12345 wrote:What if Junqueira, and not Button, got the Williams drive in 2000?

Well, at the very least, it's quite probable Junqeira would not have had his shunt at Indy in 2005. He's never really been the same since then.

ryangregg12345 wrote:What if Junqueira, and not Button, got the Williams drive in 2000?

Button ends up in CART with Chip Ganassi in 2001. Over the next years, Button wins some races and maybe the one or the other 500, which impresses Toyota so much that they sign him for their F1 team in 2005. He finally manages to score Toyota's first F1 win, and finally goes to McLaren in 2010.

What if Nico Rosberg wasn't collected by the spinning Mark Webber at the 2010 Korean Grand Prix? Nico's Merc was easily the fastest car on track at that point in time but could he have won that day?

Wizzie wrote:What if Nico Rosberg wasn't collected by the spinning Mark Webber at the 2010 Korean Grand Prix? Nico's Merc was easily the fastest car on track at that point in time but could he have won that day?

Part of the reason for that, though, was because the team were quick thinking enough to take advantage of the red flag session to alter the suspension set up for both cars, therefore improving their performance in full wet conditions.

I suspect, therefore, that Rosberg might have been able to make his way up the running order in the earlier stages of the race when the track was still quite flooded, but towards the end of the race, when the track conditions were much drier, I suspect that his pace would have dropped off in the closing stages (which was the way that Schumacher's race panned out). Added to that, there would have been the other problem of tyre wear - part of the reason why Alonso was able to win was because he was able to manage his tyre wear significantly better than anybody else in the field.

Although Mercedes weren't quite so heavy on their tyres in 2010, they still suffered from higher than average tyre wear that year so I think, therefore, that Alonso probably would have still won that race because of better tyre management. Rosberg might well have found himself on the podium, though - Hamilton did also hit problems with tyre wear in the closing stages, whilst Schumacher's pace in 4th suggested that Rosberg might have been able to fend off Massa if he'd built up enough of a gap earlier on.

mario wrote:

Wizzie wrote:What if Nico Rosberg wasn't collected by the spinning Mark Webber at the 2010 Korean Grand Prix? Nico's Merc was easily the fastest car on track at that point in time but could he have won that day?

Part of the reason for that, though, was because the team were quick thinking enough to take advantage of the red flag session to alter the suspension set up for both cars, therefore improving their performance in full wet conditions.

I suspect, therefore, that Rosberg might have been able to make his way up the running order in the earlier stages of the race when the track was still quite flooded, but towards the end of the race, when the track conditions were much drier, I suspect that his pace would have dropped off in the closing stages (which was the way that Schumacher's race panned out). Added to that, there would have been the other problem of tyre wear - part of the reason why Alonso was able to win was because he was able to manage his tyre wear significantly better than anybody else in the field.

Although Mercedes weren't quite so heavy on their tyres in 2010, they still suffered from higher than average tyre wear that year so I think, therefore, that Alonso probably would have still won that race because of better tyre management. Rosberg might well have found himself on the podium, though - Hamilton did also hit problems with tyre wear in the closing stages, whilst Schumacher's pace in 4th suggested that Rosberg might have been able to fend off Massa if he'd built up enough of a gap earlier on.

Not to mention that the points Webber lost through that collision ultimately cost him the title.

What if TWR group & Tom Walkinshaw, never got involved with Benetton around Silverstone 1991?

I could be wrong on this, but it is my understanding it had always been Tom who was ultimately responsible for bringing Ross Brawn to Benetton (circa 1992) and snatching M Schumi from under the claws of Jordan later in 1991. So if that was the case, would Ross Brawn & M Schumi still have ended up at Benetton without TWR? Alternatively what would Benetton have been like without those two key figures?

Furthermore Wikipedia states;

Walkinshaw became Benetton's engineering director, and was instrumental in developing the car that took Michael Schumacher to his first World Championship title in 1994.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Walkin ... ormula_One

So how good might the Benetton cars from the early to mid 1990's have been without TWR?

ibsey wrote:What if TWR group & Tom Walkinshaw, never got involved with Benetton around Sliverstone 1991?

ibsey mate, you write some fantastic stuff, and I can't be the only one thinking this, but please please please spell Silverstone correctly! I'm sure every time you've written it it's been with the l and i the wrong way round and I've started to develop an irrational aversion to it now!

AndreaModa wrote:

ibsey wrote:What if TWR group & Tom Walkinshaw, never got involved with Benetton around Sliverstone 1991?

ibsey mate, you write some fantastic stuff, and I can't be the only one thinking this, but please please please spell Silverstone correctly! I'm sure every time you've written it it's been with the l and i the wrong way round and I've started to develop an irrational aversion to it now!

Thanks for pointing that out to me AndreaModa. And not only have I now corrected the error, but I’ll do my best to ensure I spell Silverstone correctly in future. Perhaps I should also mention that I do suffer from Dyslexia. So I do find spelling and gramma a bit of a struggle (hence why a lot of my posts have been edited a few times). But as I say I’ll try and keep an eye on that particular word in future for you.

Also I accept my last post was particularly poorly written (before I edited it anyway). However there was a reason for this. I was trying to post it before the documentary Motor Racing on the BBC was due to start at 8.30pm (that documentary was awesome, classic 70's rock & some very rare footage of Brian Henton & Divina Galica who I've just found out was born only 5 miles from me. She has a new fan!). However then someone else distracted me which meant I failed. So I was trying to talk with (more like get rid of) them, whilst watch that documentary & finish off my last post. And as a typically man, I cannot multi task to save my life. So in case you were wondering, that was the reason why my last post was especially badly written.

What if Hockenheim wasn't redesigned and F1 kept racing there?

go_Rubens wrote:What if Hockenheim wasn't redesigned and F1 kept racing there?

Four DRS zones?

What if James Hunt (while he was alive) had been doing gridwalks in similar way as Martin Brundle has done?

Bleu wrote:What if James Hunt (while he was alive) had been doing gridwalks in similar way as Martin Brundle has done?

He'd go to Vettel, who'd give a usual PR speech, and then, while walking to the next car, he'd repeat his Monaco line

Bleu wrote:What if James Hunt (while he was alive) had been doing gridwalks in similar way as Martin Brundle has done?

Depends on whether the bar had opened beforehand. I think by now there would a long list of drivers who wouldnt be speaking to him on the grid anymore.

Spare a moment for James on the 15th of June as its the twentieth anniversary of his passing and we still miss him dont we?

One of the more boring what ifs:

What if Fabrizio Giovanardi got into F1 in 1992?

CoopsII wrote:

Bleu wrote:What if James Hunt (while he was alive) had been doing gridwalks in similar way as Martin Brundle has done?

Depends on whether the bar had opened beforehand. I think by now there would a long list of drivers who wouldnt be speaking to him on the grid anymore.

Spare a moment for James on the 15th of June as its the twentieth anniversary of his passing and we still miss him dont we?

I would love to see Mr Hunt interview Mr Raikkonen...

dr-baker wrote:I would love to see Mr Hunt interview Mr Raikkonen...

That could never happen, for as everyone knows, James Hunt IS Kimi Raikkonen...

takagi_for_the_win wrote:

dr-baker wrote:I would love to see Mr Hunt interview Mr Raikkonen...

That could never happen, for as everyone knows, James Hunt IS Kimi Raikkonen...

Yes. And all I can say to that is I was having a sh*ite.

darkapprentice77 wrote:One of the more boring what ifs:

What if Fabrizio Giovanardi got into F1 in 1992?

Far inferior to Giovanardi in NASCAR considering the nature of touring cars with their handling. He'd be decent, but little more in F1.

What if CART, in 2003, was bought by NASCAR?
What if F1 raced in Autopolis, as intended in 1993? Or what if Jerez got the nod instead of Donington?

takagi_for_the_win wrote:

dr-baker wrote:I would love to see Mr Hunt interview Mr Raikkonen...

That could never happen, for as everyone knows, James Hunt IS Kimi Raikkonen...

Perhaps JH wouldve been one of the few that Raikkonen would have a bit of time for?

What if Kovalinnen was retained at McLaren for 2010?