New teams for 2010

BB01 · Post by **BB01** » 12 Jun 2009, 01:51

I'm half expecting to see the list including Williams, Force India and Ferrari, as well as some new teams. The reason I say this is because I'm pretty sure that from the FIA's point of view, Ferrari have a permanent entry into the championship, even though Ferrari believe that that agreement is no longer valid. I see the FIA including them on the list to try to pressure Ferrari and try to fracture FOTA... if they want to play real hard-ball, that is.

Coyote South · Post by **Coyote South** » 12 Jun 2009, 06:28

It is possible some of the new entrants only did so by the request of people unknown to perhaps put some pressure on FOTA. On the other hand, I think its possible that Renault, Toyota, and BMW hope their conditional entries are rejected so they can pull out, while saving face and claiming they were forced out.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 12 Jun 2009, 07:53

Captain Hammer wrote:This is how I rate their chances and why:

Campos Meta 1 - good because they've got experience in GP2 and is owned by a former driver.
Prodrive F1 - good because Dave Richards has expeirence with managing a team, knows what it takes to be successful and they held the 2008 entry.
Team US-F1 - good because they've been in development for years and Windsor and Anderson seem to know what they're doing.
Lola Cars - okay because they've been in motorsport for a long time, but everyone remembers 1997.
Litespeed-Lotus - okay because while they have motorsport experience, making the jump from British F3 to Formula One is a huge step.
Epsilon Euskadi - okay because they have facilities, experience and supposedly funding, but they apparently can't sit still long enough to commit to one project.
Brabham/Fomtech - poor because while they might have Super Aguri's assets, they were Super Aguri's assets and useless with the new technical regualtions.
N. Technology - poor because there's been nothing to indicate that they have anything to work with at all.
Team Superfund - poor because they have no expeirence, no facilities and their last attempt at starting a formula series of their own ended in disaster.
March Racing Organiation - poor, because there's been even less word from them than there has been from Brabham/Formtech.

Overall, I gree with your rating, although the case for Litespeed seems to be a bit worst, with Lotus coming out to defend its name. Either way, we should know the results in a few hours. Drum roll, please...

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 12 Jun 2009, 10:07

That's funny, because I've heard it was misreported: according to the corrected version, Lotus aren't taking legal action against Litespeed, but are rather moving to make it absolutely cear that Lotus Cars and Litepseed-Lotus are two entirely different organisations and in no way affiliated with one another. Litespeed-Lotus may be known by the name Lotus, but it will be a different Lotus to the one we know and love. I think. The article was kind of vague.

Besides, if Lotus Cars stop Litepseed-Lotus from using the Lotus name, it's likely they'd just be known as Litespeed, which is inconsequential to their chances. It doesn't matter if they're known as Litespeed or as Lotus, it doesn't change the fact that the only experience they have in motorport is in British F3 and it's a huge step up to Formula One, especially considering that the likes of Campos Meta 1 and Epsilon Euskadi have GP2 experience.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 12 Jun 2009, 10:11

Pardon the double-post, but the 2010 grid has been announced! And there's a big surprise in store ... I so wanted to be the person to post this!

FIA announces 2010 F1 entry list

By Jonathan Noble - Friday, June 12th 2009, 09:51 GMT

World championship leaders Brawn, plus former champions McLaren and Renault are among the teams that have been told to lift the conditions on their entry to the 2010 championship by June 19 or risk being left off the grid.

After days of intense speculation about which teams would comprise the make up for the 2010 championship, the FIA announced that of the current teams only Ferrari, Red Bull Racing, Scuderia Toro Rosso, Williams and Force India have been granted entries.

It means that Brawn, McLaren, Renault, BMW Sauber and Toyota have all been sidelined for now - pointing towards further frantic efforts to try and find a solution to the row over cost cuts.

In a statement issued by the FIA, it said: "These five teams have submitted conditional entries.The FIA has invited them to lift those conditions following further discussions to be concluded not later than close of business on Friday 19 June."

The inclusion of Ferrari and the two Red Bull teams is also a bone of contention, with the outfits likely to claim that they could only be entered if the conditions attached to their applications to race were met.

The FIA, however, believes the teams committed several years ago when they signed deals with the governing body and Formula One Management tying themselves to the sport.

The list also confirmed that three new teams had been granted an entry - Campos Grand Prix, Manor Grand Prix and Team US F1.

Should any of the five current teams not make the cut, then the FIA is evaluating further entries being added.

AUTOSPORT understands there are three or four other teams who are close to being granted entries, and dialogue is still ongoing.

Campos Grand Prix is being run by former grand prix driver Adrian Campos, with Team US F1 headed by Ken Anderson and Peter Windsor.

AUTOSPORT understands the new Manor Grand Prix team is headed by F3 team boss John Booth and former grand prix team owner Nick Wirth.

Manor Grand Prix? And run by none other than Nick "Spintek" Wirth? I thought Prodrive was a sure thing!

Faustus · Post by **Faustus** » 12 Jun 2009, 10:17

Very interesting news!
I am actually glad to see Prodrive rejected. Not seeing Lola on the list is a surprise, although maybe they'll associate themselves with Manor or Campos.

Paul Hayes · Post by **Paul Hayes** » 12 Jun 2009, 10:28

Manor certainly came out of nowhere. I was expecting three from the four of Prodrive, USF1, Lola and Campos. Presumably Lola and Prodrive are on standby for the pull-outs of Renault or Toyota.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 12 Jun 2009, 10:48

Very interesting news!
I am actually glad to see Prodrive rejected. Not seeing Lola on the list is a surprise, although maybe they'll associate themselves with Manor or Campos.

That's right. If forgot you were the leader of the Anti-Dave Club.

The article makes it pretty clear that there are still a few teams on a reserve list, talking things over with the FIA. It's obvious the FIA expects someone to depart at the end of 2009, whether because they do not like he budget cap or for other reasons. Renault have uggested that tey may leave because of a downturn in sales in their road car division. And don't forget that someone has to buy Toro Rosso. It makes sense that larger, more established companies like Prodrive and Lola would be added to that list because they can afford to purchase the assests of a defunct team than someone like Manor.

Though I do expect Nick Wirth to qualify for Rejectdom again.

tristan1117 · Post by **tristan1117** » 12 Jun 2009, 11:05

This is the best news in reject history for a long time! Adrian Campos, reject driver now a team owner. Nick Wirth, former Simtek boss, a reject team! Nick Wirth could be the only owner with 2 reject teams. Campos could be the only one with reject driver and team. THis is brilliant for the sport and the site!

Interesting not to see Mclaren confirmed though.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 12 Jun 2009, 11:11

As far as I can tell, this list was produced specifically to break up FOTA. I thought the politics was over today, and the sport would be back soon. Looks like I was wrong.

Python · Post by **Python** » 12 Jun 2009, 11:20

I was shocked to see Prodrive not on the "list". I figured they would have gotten accepted. I figured that Team USF1 would get picked, since out of all the new teams coming they seem to have a majority of their ducks in a row so far.

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 12 Jun 2009, 11:21

CarlosFerreira wrote:As far as I can tell, this list was produced specifically to break up FOTA. I thought the politics was over today, and the sport would be back soon. Looks like I was wrong.

You thought the politics would come to an end? Are you serious? Since when has politics ever left F1? If it's not the entry list then it's Diffuser-gate, or Mosely-Gate, or McLaren Gate (parts 1, 2, 3,...) or something....

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 12 Jun 2009, 11:22

Manor who? So in fact, it's Max's old buddy Nick Wirth having another go at constructing an F1 chassis as chief designer, the man who was famous for being the first chief designer younger than his drivers when he first entered with Simtek in 94.
Only back then, the Simtek car was already running in testing during the summer of 93.

Campos looks to be the most competent new entrant of those who made it, with their Dallara chassis. USF1 are still a bunch of many unknown variables, since they are starting their team from scratch, not knowing how well their personnel will gel when they work together. And Manor? Do they even have a factory?

The entries of Lola and ProDrive missing out seems a bit strange. They may have a track record of getting in once and then retiring quickly or not showing up at all, but they surely got more technical expertise (Lola) and business expertise (ProDrive) than all 3 of the actual entrants.

I can only hope for Campos and USF1 that they are allowed to race next year, whatever the outcome of the political wrangling will be. I'm not too sure what to think of Manor right now. They surely do have an engine contract, but do they have a place to build their car?

At least, one of my 3 favourites of the new teams has made the list: Campos (the other 2 being Lola and ProDrive).

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 12 Jun 2009, 11:24

I am actually quite disappointed that Lola didn't make it - I already had my heart set on them being my favourite team of 2010...

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 12 Jun 2009, 11:27

dr-baker wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:As far as I can tell, this list was produced specifically to break up FOTA. I thought the politics was over today, and the sport would be back soon. Looks like I was wrong.

You thought the politics would come to an end? Are you serious? Since when has politics ever left F1? If it's not the entry list then it's Diffuser-gate, or Mosely-Gate, or McLaren Gate (parts 1, 2, 3,...) or something....

As F1 fans, we can all live (and enjoy) middle-of-the-road politics of the kind you describe. But what's at stake here is probably a bit more serious than that. It's the kind of thing that might actually break the sport. In a week's time, we'll farewell to one of the greatest circuits in the calendar, and we're looking at entry lists...

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 12 Jun 2009, 11:46

Ferrari, Red Bull and Toro Rosso have allegedly gone to the WSMC, claiming that their entires for 2010 were made "against their will", and asking the council to do somehting about it and the budget cap rules.

Faustus · Post by **Faustus** » 12 Jun 2009, 11:57

Captain Hammer wrote:
Very interesting news!
I am actually glad to see Prodrive rejected. Not seeing Lola on the list is a surprise, although maybe they'll associate themselves with Manor or Campos.

That's right. If forgot you were the leader of the Anti-Dave Club.

I certainly am! Do you want to join the club?

Ross Prawn · Post by **Ross Prawn** » 12 Jun 2009, 12:14

Its an odd list, but I suppose thats to be expected. USF1 are to be welcomed but preferring Manor and Campos over Prodrive and Lola seems very odd. Maybe Max is a secret F1 Rejects member?

At least the zombie Lotus and Brabham appear out of the picture.

As for the rest of the politics. :roll:

Well they are obviously having so much fun, that they have decided to go on arguing for another week.

And the issue is mutating from cost cutting, which actually everyone agrees about, to something else. If you read the letter from FOTA to the WMSC its quite clear that what they want is 'Max must go.' And unless something constructive happens fairly soon, the issue will get entrenched with the teams shouting, 'its him or us'.

I predict that it won't get sorted over the next week. Brawn and Red Bull will submit entries, because there's not much else they can do. Toyota, BMW and Renault will pull out, because their return on investment isn't great and they don't need the hassle. There won't be a breakaway series, they'll just go do something else.

Ferrari will sit out for 2010, whilst committing their resource to designing a car that might actually work in 2011, and to fighting a court case with the FIA. Consequently, Max will be burnt in effigy in Italy and most of the latin world. Luca will dedicate most of the considerable resources of Fiat to getting rid of Max. Max will soon discover that threatening to take Ferrari to court will not work, because Luca will be prepared to spend far more than that to get rid of him.

McClaren will sit on the fence for as long as possible. But they will rush to stick more knives into Max when it becomes clear that he is losing.

The commercial rights holders will watch all of this with growing disbelief, until the day they call Bernie in and inform him that he can either sort this out or they will sue him for every penny he has. Oh and once he's sorted it out, he should think about retirement.

Bernie will start seriously sorting and Max will be gone by about September with Jean Todt arriving to survey the wreckage. Bernie will retire at the end of 2009, and Flav will take his role of coordinating for FOM.

Next years grid will have about ten teams, but will be minus Ferrari and the big manufacturers. A lot of grandstands will be empty. Ferrari will return in 2011.

Todt and Flav will do a great job, and there will again be F1 worth watching by 2014.

But we'll all be NASCAR fans by then.

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 12 Jun 2009, 13:19

No. I actually think Prodrive would bring something to the F1 table. Certainly more than Mosley's lapdog in the shape of Manor Grand Prix.

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 12 Jun 2009, 13:24

You know, Ross? I wanted to laugh my head off at your post. But it might actually make more sense than most things I've read lately on this matter.

LukeB · Post by **LukeB** » 12 Jun 2009, 13:43

Isn't it a little early to be drinking/dropping-acid Ross?

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 12 Jun 2009, 14:12

CarlosFerreira wrote:
dr-baker wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:As far as I can tell, this list was produced specifically to break up FOTA. I thought the politics was over today, and the sport would be back soon. Looks like I was wrong.

You thought the politics would come to an end? Are you serious? Since when has politics ever left F1? If it's not the entry list then it's Diffuser-gate, or Mosely-Gate, or McLaren Gate (parts 1, 2, 3,...) or something....

As F1 fans, we can all live (and enjoy) middle-of-the-road politics of the kind you describe. But what's at stake here is probably a bit more serious than that. It's the kind of thing that might actually break the sport. In a week's time, we'll farewell to one of the greatest circuits in the calendar, and we're looking at entry lists...

True. I was just saying that there will always be politics of one severity or another, but you're right. It would be better for all involved to know exactly who was in and out - we don't need another entry by Lola prepared in a matter of only a few months, find themselves 12 seconds off the pace and then impolde within a fortnight... Do we?

CarlosFerreira · Post by **CarlosFerreira** » 12 Jun 2009, 14:40

dr-baker wrote:True. I was just saying that there will always be politics of one severity or another, but you're right. It would be better for all involved to know exactly who was in and out - we don't need another entry by Lola prepared in a matter of only a few months, find themselves 12 seconds off the pace and then impolde within a fortnight... Do we?

Probably not. Personally, I am one of the defenders of the thesis that more independent teams are better for F1, but this looks like an attempt to go back to the 60's, where most teams just had a shed and 20 people working. It won't work, I think. And might alienate assets - teams, constructors, drivers - that are part of the very fabric of what F1 is.

Henrique · Post by **Henrique** » 12 Jun 2009, 16:02

I'm really surprised to see Lola out. At least Campos is in, that will be interesting. To be honest, I'm glad they left Prodrive and Epsilon Euskadi out.

Ross Prawn · Post by **Ross Prawn** » 12 Jun 2009, 16:31

LukeB wrote:Isn't it a little early to be drinking/dropping-acid Ross?

Not dropping acid. Just using my crystal ball.

I just reckon this is going to turn into a fight over Max's future, or at least future conduct. The big teams are sick of being in a system where they are expected to obey the latest FIA edict. It gives them no hope of planning and building a sensible business. And unless something changes some of them will just take their toys elsewhere, where they can better spend their marketing budgets.

Fitch · Post by **Fitch** » 12 Jun 2009, 16:40

Campos have announced that Dallara will build their car.............I'm sure Wirth will design the Manor, and USF1 has it's car on paper........

I would not be surprised, assuming they are really serious about entering, to see Lola buy up one of the existing teams. Possibly work out a deal to build a car for someone.

Popi_Larrauri · Post by **Popi_Larrauri** » 12 Jun 2009, 16:59

All in all everyone seems to show some kind of surprise: Personally, I thought USF1 was the only serious team, despite being no more than a lot of good ideas concerning team building-up, they been talking about it for a long time and that meant to me they had a general plan rather than a good idea. the fact that critical names were missing could be attributed to the fact that nothing should be taken for granted until today. Then, USF1 at least deserved some credit. Good to see Cosworth again, by the way, it will give another variable to F1 contract market.

I don't know about the rest, Campos to me was lagging behind Prodrive and Lola. And about Manor... well, never heared from them a single word. Personally I have my resentment with Prodrive since they snatched 2006 entry from a team in which Scalabroni was seriously involved (even more, if I´m not wrong, news in here told he was about to be shareholder). He was not only argentinean, but a serious reject in terms of projects that never eventuated (cuorious thing that he wasn't glued to any of this reject projects).... only to then leave because there were not enough conditions to enter without a customer car... What? That were the incredible top standards to enter in Formula 1 they met better than everyone else? Buying an year old chassis and placing a customer Mercedes V10 inside? Everyone else could do that.

I'm neither sure about Lola, since their 1997 effort has nothing to do with their real condition today.

Post by **Nuppiz** » 12 Jun 2009, 17:27

Popi_Larrauri wrote:I'm neither sure about Lola, since their 1997 effort has nothing to do with their real condition today.

Yep, basically they were pushed into F1 too early by their sponsors in 1997.

Faustus · Post by **Faustus** » 12 Jun 2009, 18:25

Nuppiz wrote:
Popi_Larrauri wrote:I'm neither sure about Lola, since their 1997 effort has nothing to do with their real condition today.

Yep, basically they were pushed into F1 too early by their sponsors in 1997.

And Eric Broadley and the entire technical and management team are no longer there. Some months ago there was a really good interview in Motorsport with Martin Birrane (the current owner of Lola) and Eric Broadley.

tristan1117 · Post by **tristan1117** » 12 Jun 2009, 19:08

Faustus wrote:
Nuppiz wrote:
Popi_Larrauri wrote:I'm neither sure about Lola, since their 1997 effort has nothing to do with their real condition today.

Yep, basically they were pushed into F1 too early by their sponsors in 1997.

And Eric Broadley and the entire technical and management team are no longer there. Some months ago there was a really good interview in Motorsport with Martin Birrane (the current owner of Lola) and Eric Broadley.

Didn't Eric Broadly have to sell the team because of the 97 Lola disaster

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 13 Jun 2009, 07:31

Is it just being suspicious or has Max let in one or two teams that are not as serious as Lola, ProDrive and EpsilonEuskadi, who are still standing in front of the door, just to put further pressure on the FOTA with their conditional entry?
Or is it just Max trying to synthetically keep F1's exclusivity, by keeping out serious entrants? These 3 are no Andrea Modas by far. The FIA surely must know a lot more about the progress of USF1 and Manor than the public do, because the inclusion of these teams suggests that they must be ahead of the others in their development of becoming an F1 team. And if they were indeed chosen for political reasons only, then this s*cks.

Maybe the FOTA should present some teams willing to enter with them into a rival series, too.
Wasn't there a rumour of HWA/AMG, the DTM squad of Mercedes, to enter some months back? They surely could field customer McLarens in the FOTA series. And does "Tom's Toyota", the Group C outfit, still exist? They could field customer Toyotas, or customer Williams-Toyotas even ;-)

And in case of a split, somebody might even enter the FIA championship with a customer car from a FOTA team (!)

These ongoing political wranglings surely are making a strong bid for Reject Of the Year, especially in the worst case that they were to go on until next season.

Yannick · Post by **Yannick** » 13 Jun 2009, 07:49

I've decided to compile a list of comments from new entrants and those still left out in the cold.

Lola - represented by Martin Birrane

ProDrive - Dave Richards talks mainly about Le Mans

Manor - represented by John Booth

Epsilon Euskadi - represented by Joan Villadelprat

It's especially noteworthy that Villadelprat says he was told this entry list would still be provisional and that all those still left outside of the door were still being considered, but those 3 who made it were also still being checked upon.

All of this makes it look like the current list is just a shot aimed at FOTA and not a real entry list at all.

Ross Prawn · Post by **Ross Prawn** » 13 Jun 2009, 08:12

Yannick wrote:Is it just being suspicious or has Max let in one or two teams that are not as serious as Lola, ProDrive and EpsilonEuskadi, who are still standing in front of the door, just to put further pressure on the FOTA with their conditional entry?
Or is it just Max trying to synthetically keep F1's exclusivity, by keeping out serious entrants? These 3 are no Andrea Modas by far. The FIA surely must know a lot more about the progress of USF1 and Manor than the public do, because the inclusion of these teams suggests that they must be ahead of the others in their development of becoming an F1 team. And if they were indeed chosen for political reasons only, then this s*cks.

Maybe the FOTA should present some teams willing to enter with them into a rival series, too.
Wasn't there a rumour of HWA/AMG, the DTM squad of Mercedes, to enter some months back? They surely could field customer McLarens in the FOTA series. And does "Tom's Toyota", the Group C outfit, still exist? They could field customer Toyotas, or customer Williams-Toyotas even

And in case of a split, somebody might even enter the FIA championship with a customer car from a FOTA team (!)

These ongoing political wranglings surely are making a strong bid for Reject Of the Year, especially in the worst case that they were to go on until next season.

This all goes back to the issue of 'transparent governance of the sport', which is what FOTA are banging on about. Isn't it an odd and lamentable situation that the FIA's reasons for selecting new teams are not in the public domain. At best this situation raises suspicions that the selection is largely to do with politics and back room deals rather than merit.

Shadaza · Post by **Shadaza** » 13 Jun 2009, 12:28

I think it is ridiculus to say Manor and Campos are not as good as Lola and Prodrive, all we as fans get is, in f1 reject terms publicocrap. We personally did not visit the factorys or examin the designs nor have we seen the buisness plans. I think the FIA would choose teams they think are stable and can compete and we should back their decesion 100%, even if I did want Prodrive to enter

Debaser · Post by **Debaser** » 13 Jun 2009, 15:17

But backing the FIA isn't fun, its much more fun to hurl abuse at them for their crap governance of the sport. That said I have no problem with the new entries apart from Lola not getting the nod. Also Campos sold his GP2 team to Barwa Addax (hope I spelt that right) so he's starting from scratch. USF1 look like clandestine F1 rejects to me, I look forward to seeing them next year. The phrase "American success in F1" is virtually an oxymoron, so an all-American team look bound for reject status.

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 16 Jun 2009, 12:47

[quote="Captain Hammer"]
Campos Meta 1 - good because they've got experience in GP2 and is owned by a former driver.

Also, the former driver is a reject

Captain Hammer · Post by **Captain Hammer** » 16 Jun 2009, 13:32

Doesn't matter; he has experience. He's not totally unfamiliar with thsort, even if it was twenty years ago. And that gives him an edge. There's a big difference between being a driver and being a team owner, and Adrian Campos has had more success with the latter than with the former.

FullMetalJack · Post by **FullMetalJack** » 16 Jun 2009, 19:09

Yeah, his GP2 team did win the championship last year, so he has enough success in lower formulae.

DonTirri · Post by **DonTirri** » 17 Jun 2009, 10:04

Captain Hammer wrote:Doesn't matter; he has experience. He's not totally unfamiliar with thsort, even if it was twenty years ago. And that gives him an edge. There's a big difference between being a driver and being a team owner, and Adrian Campos has had more success with the latter than with the former.

But being an Ex-driver doesn't mean you'll be a succesfull team owner.

Super Aguri or Prost ring a bell?

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 17 Jun 2009, 10:45

DonTirri wrote:
Captain Hammer wrote:Doesn't matter; he has experience. He's not totally unfamiliar with thsort, even if it was twenty years ago. And that gives him an edge. There's a big difference between being a driver and being a team owner, and Adrian Campos has had more success with the latter than with the former.

But being an Ex-driver doesn't mean you'll be a succesfull team owner.

Super Aguri or Prost ring a bell?

As far as success goes when an ex-driver becomes a team boss is impossible to predict. It worked very well for Jack Brabham, Stewart GP won a race, Hill might have done fine if they lasted longer (RIP) but there have also been failures - Amon, Fittipaldi, etc. McLaren's team didn't do too bad long-term either did it?