Grand Prix Rejects

I think both Toro Rosso drivers will stay put for 2013. Then, regardless of how much they are improving, they will be given the flick

Buemi and Alguersuari were similar at this stage of their careers, and Alguersuari never was a good qualifier. But they still deserve a seat somewhere.

Relevant to STR > http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/100776

Well, I've been saying it for a while now, he's been my tip to be the next big thing reaching F1 from junior formulae for a couple of years now. Let's see if this helps him advance or not, in fairness it's probably not going to be 2013 but perhaps he could become an STR driver in 2014.

fjackdaw wrote:

TheBigJ wrote:Right, before this goes into F1 slate anarchy, can I ask who could possibly replace the two clowns currently driving for Torro Rosso?

No one. They've only just begun - why is it these days that people are hungry to replace drivers just a few races in? These guys are new to F1, Vergne especially; unlike the past, there's no testing time for them to find their feet. We're seeing them learn to drive in Formula 1 on race weekends. Compare the miles driven by drivers from previous generations before setting foot in the paddock. The guys these days who pretty much have to be on it from FP1.

Look at Grosjean - thrown in at the deep end in Renault, it's no wonder he was all over the place. That's what happened to a pretty decent driver. Or the way Badoer was thrown to the wolves. We have no idea yet what either Verge or Ricciardo are capable of yet.

Red Bull aren't exactly known for showing loyalty to many of their junior drivers or coaching and guiding their drivers, and I would not put it past them to fire one of the two Toro Rosso drivers before the season is out.
The pressure on rookie drivers to mature rapidly is immense because you have one or two exceptions - like Perez - who do manage to settle down and mature quite quickly, but that is very much an exception than the rule. Looking to force such maturity in the somewhat callous atmosphere that pervades Toro Rosso - which now merely exists to serve the parent team with drivers, engineers and extra votes in the WMSC - is not exactly conducive, and in fact probably does more harm than good, to the development of an up and coming driver.

After all, Red Bull have been even more ruthless with drivers in junior series - Red Bull have thrown Lewis Williamson out of their Young Driver program, having initially formed a semi-official deal with him in 2011 and formally hiring him at the beginning of this year, after just five races in the current Formula Renault 3.5 series. Despite the fact that this is his rookie season (which might explain why he has struggled and currently sits bottom of the field in FR3.5), Red Bull seem to have expected him to start performing instantly, as outlined by their reason for sacking Williamson:

A statement from Red Bull said Williamson "has not had the success everyone expected this year in the Renault 3.5 series that is seen as a direct step into Formula 1, the step that was taken in last year by Daniel Ricciardo and Jean-Eric Vergne. It is a brutally competitive business."

The comment about Ricciardo and Vergne is somewhat striking - it seems to suggest that they might be looking for somebody who could move into their seats if they feel Ricciardo and Vergne are underperforming, and that it might be sooner rather than later.

As it is, Williamson will be losing his seat to Antonio Felix da Costa, currently 9th in the GP3 series but now receiving a considerable promotion. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/100776

kostas22 wrote:Relevant to STR > http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/100776

Well, I've been saying it for a while now, he's been my tip to be the next big thing reaching F1 from junior formulae for a couple of years now. Let's see if this helps him advance or not, in fairness it's probably not going to be 2013 but perhaps he could become an STR driver in 2014.

He does seem promising, I have to admit.

Adrian Quaife-Hobbs is still who I think will end up being the next big thing though.

eurobrun wrote:

kostas22 wrote:Relevant to STR > http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/100776

Well, I've been saying it for a while now, he's been my tip to be the next big thing reaching F1 from junior formulae for a couple of years now. Let's see if this helps him advance or not, in fairness it's probably not going to be 2013 but perhaps he could become an STR driver in 2014.

He does seem promising, I have to admit.

Adrian Quaife-Hobbs is still who I think will end up being the next big thing though.

Robert Wickens? (even though he has no relevance to STR at all )

JeremyMcClean wrote:

eurobrun wrote:

kostas22 wrote:Relevant to STR > http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/100776

Well, I've been saying it for a while now, he's been my tip to be the next big thing reaching F1 from junior formulae for a couple of years now. Let's see if this helps him advance or not, in fairness it's probably not going to be 2013 but perhaps he could become an STR driver in 2014.

He does seem promising, I have to admit.

Adrian Quaife-Hobbs is still who I think will end up being the next big thing though.

Robert Wickens? (even though he has no relevance to STR at all )

He's in DTM now, with the exception of Di Resta no one* has went from DTM to F1.


No, I didn't forget Albers, but that idiot dosen't deserve to call himself a F1 driver.

JeremyMcClean wrote:

eurobrun wrote:

kostas22 wrote:Relevant to STR > http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/100776

Well, I've been saying it for a while now, he's been my tip to be the next big thing reaching F1 from junior formulae for a couple of years now. Let's see if this helps him advance or not, in fairness it's probably not going to be 2013 but perhaps he could become an STR driver in 2014.

He does seem promising, I have to admit.

Adrian Quaife-Hobbs is still who I think will end up being the next big thing though.

Robert Wickens? (even though he has no relevance to STR at all )

The fact that Wickens doesn't have at least a test driver role with an F1 team right now is an absolute travasty. If it is any consolation however, he does have time on his side.

Well, Wickens is in a sort-of Mercedes young driver program so he's closer to F1 than he was in recent years, occasional reserve driver gigs ignored. Once Mercedes gets over their Schumacher obsession you might very well see some more DTM drivers moving to F1, especially since from it's nature it is pretty much closer to F1 than most feeder series.

Plus, Paul di Resta was in DTM and moved to F1 the following year after winning. I know it's a bit of a longshot but he might be able to jump to F1 too.

But the thing I don't get is, Jean-Eric Vergne was 2nd to Wickens in Formula Renault, yet he got an F1 drive. I know it was with the Red Bull driver program, but considering their championship position that is absolutely ridiculous. (Not to mention Ricciardo, who placed bloody 5th. OK, so he missed the first and last race, that is still crazy. OK, he was also with the RBDP. Do I care? No.)

And now for something completely different...

Is it odd that Arthur Pic, brother of Charles Pic, might also have a shot of making it into F1 soon? AndreaModa, take note!

JeremyMcClean wrote:Plus, Paul di Resta was in DTM and moved to F1 the following year after winning. I know it's a bit of a longshot but he might be able to jump to F1 too.

But the thing I don't get is, Jean-Eric Vergne was 2nd to Wickens in Formula Renault, yet he got an F1 drive. I know it was with the Red Bull driver program, but considering their championship position that is absolutely ridiculous. (Not to mention Ricciardo, who placed bloody 5th. OK, so he missed the first and last race, that is still crazy. OK, he was also with the RBDP. Do I care? No.)

And now for something completely different...

Is it odd that Arthur Pic, brother of Charles Pic, might also have a shot of making it into F1 soon? AndreaModa, take note!

No, I would be surprised if he isn't at Marussia or HRT sometime in the next two years.

kostas22 wrote:Relevant to STR > http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/100776

Well, I've been saying it for a while now, he's been my tip to be the next big thing reaching F1 from junior formulae for a couple of years now. Let's see if this helps him advance or not, in fairness it's probably not going to be 2013 but perhaps he could become an STR driver in 2014.

It's not too much of a shock that Williamson has been dropped, given that his performances so far have been mighty disappointing, but I thought they'd let him complete the season! Helmut Marko strikes again!

It's sad that Red Bull should have a driver development program and then treat their charges like that. There are very few careers which don't go through a slump at some point, and if managed correctly, they can make a driver better eventually.

This is part of the reason why I rate Kovalainen and Caterham so highly. I really admire that he has made something positive out of being sacked from McLaren.

Now if only Massa could do it....but that was mismanaged in the words "Fernando is faster than you"

The Red Bull Driver Development programme doesn't deserve its name. Devlopment? Rubbish. It's "lets fund this guy for a season and see if he's any good, if he ain't, we'll sack him and find someone else."
And now they're not even willing to wait for a single season. Stupidity...

Yeah, never mind that da Costa is demonstrating some pace in GP3 while Williamson is last in Formula Renault ...

Captain Hammer wrote:Yeah, never mind that da Costa is demonstrating some pace in GP3 while Williamson is last in Formula Renault ...

Exactly my point. One thing the RBDP did right, for once. But their method of bringing drivers to F1 by immediately dumping them for someone else hoping it's another Vettel just isn't working.

JeremyMcClean wrote:But their method of bringing drivers to F1 by immediately dumping them for someone else hoping it's another Vettel just isn't working.

It only has to work once in a while.

They can afford to do it, though. There's a lot of quick young drivers in the ranks, so once you're in, you either show some form or risk losing your seat. Williamson clearly wasn't living up to expectations.

Captain Hammer wrote:They can afford to do it, though. There's a lot of quick young drivers in the ranks, so once you're in, you either show some form or risk losing your seat. Williamson clearly wasn't living up to expectations.

I can actually understand why they dumped Williamson, his Formula Renault performances were really not good.

Captain Hammer wrote:They can afford to do it, though. There's a lot of quick young drivers in the ranks, so once you're in, you either show some form or risk losing your seat. Williamson clearly wasn't living up to expectations.

In the case of Williamson? Yes. He was just awfully slow.

In the case of Buemi and Alguersuari? Nope. They were decent drivers sacked for no good reason. Not that I hate Ricciardo and Vergne, they're both decent drivers, just masked by their equipment. If anything, Toro Rosso can't seem to make a decent car by themselves.

I think that both Buemi and Alguersaurus were overrated, the way in which they were sacked was stupid though.

eurobrun wrote:I think that both Buemi and Alguersaurus were overrated, the way in which they were sacked was stupid though.

Especially when Alguersuari had an offer to another team and Buemi was marred by reliability issues near the end of the season. And both wanted to stay assuming they had a seat.

JeremyMcClean wrote:

eurobrun wrote:I think that both Buemi and Alguersaurus were overrated, the way in which they were sacked was stupid though.

Especially when Alguersuari had an offer to another team and Buemi was marred by reliability issues near the end of the season. And both wanted to stay assuming they had a seat.

It's amazing how in this day and age, anyone could have as many reliability issues as Buemi did. He probably would have scored points in most of those races too.

I'd like to see James Calado in F1 next season, with Dillmann taking that Lotus GP2 seat.

Kovalainen to Ferrari, Calado to Caterham anyone?

Buemi is a decent driver but I never saw the potential in him as in Alguersuari. Jaime was pretty much put to F1 as an 18 year old and still managed to adapt okay despite testing bans already in place. That, in my opinion, shows natural talent. He is still just 21 at the moment, an age were many haven't made their debuts yet, like Bottas (who is an year older than Alguersuari). I really hope we'll see Jaime back on the grid next year, only problem is where he would fit in. At Sauber, could be but will they really part ways with Kobayashi and Perez? Maybe if Perez gets a promotion to a top team. Williams? Possible, but I believe they'll run a Maldonado - Bottas pair next season. Force India? Possible, but they might promote Bianchi instead. Caterham is maybe his best bet if Heikki gets called up to a bigger team.

Alguersuari could be like Sainz and Gronholm were to WRC. Neither had immense natural talent. But they both spent a long time in the sport and got better and better as a result. Neither came to prominence until their 30s, but they had been racing for a long time before that. I guess almost like Mika Hakkinen. He only had a few seasons in a lower midfield car to prove himself. If I were a team owner I would seriously consider him, he is so so young yet has a decent amount of experience and potential. If he works at it, he can become good. But if no-one gives him a drive soon it will all amount to nothing.

kostas22 wrote:Alguersuari could be like Sainz and Gronholm were to WRC. Neither had immense natural talent. But they both spent a long time in the sport and got better and better as a result. Neither came to prominence until their 30s, but they had been racing for a long time before that. I guess almost like Mika Hakkinen. He only had a few seasons in a lower midfield car to prove himself. If I were a team owner I would seriously consider him, he is so so young yet has a decent amount of experience and potential. If he works at it, he can become good. But if no-one gives him a drive soon it will all amount to nothing.

Well, I fully agree with that analysis. Jaime Alguersuari could amount to great things in Formula One, although a comparison with Häkkinen would (subconsciously) imply him being world championship caliber - I would not go that far. However, we could very well see Alguersuari in F1 again: he is young, yet still has experience. He's like those dream guys companies seem to want according to their employment ad. Furthermore, this being quite helpful knowledge, his work with Pirelli is literally worth the time spent in gold. An obvious option would be to have him go to Sauber if Perez does the jump to the higher levels of the F1 grid. Heck, for all I know, I wouldn't completely remove him joining a top team should there be a shocking move this off-season. Although that would most likely be too much fun to happen, right?

The good news about Alguersuari is that he's 22 or something like that and could still have potential in F1.

Benetton wrote:Buemi is a decent driver but I never saw the potential in him as in Alguersuari. Jaime was pretty much put to F1 as an 18 year old and still managed to adapt okay despite testing bans already in place. That, in my opinion, shows natural talent. He is still just 21 at the moment, an age were many haven't made their debuts yet, like Bottas (who is an year older than Alguersuari). I really hope we'll see Jaime back on the grid next year, only problem is where he would fit in. At Sauber, could be but will they really part ways with Kobayashi and Perez? Maybe if Perez gets a promotion to a top team. Williams? Possible, but I believe they'll run a Maldonado - Bottas pair next season. Force India? Possible, but they might promote Bianchi instead. Caterham is maybe his best bet if Heikki gets called up to a bigger team.

Buemi's problem is that he is still partially yoked to Red Bull by virtue of being their designated reserve and test driver (he is still spending much of his time back at base in the simulator) - it looks like his feedback is valuable enough for Red Bull to want to keep him around, but not valued highly enough for him to hold onto a seat.

As for Alguersuari, I would agree that his current position as Pirelli's test driver should give him a very good chance of working his way back into F1 - it does seem to be helping him become a more technically astute driver. He probably isn't the outright fastest or most talented driver out there, but he has come across as an intelligent enough driver with more than enough time on his side to refine his skills, which would make him the ideal sort of driver for a midfield team. He is a driver with plenty of experience on track and with the latest tyres (info that might be invaluable next year), is fairly race ready and up to speed, having carried out tests in a reasonably modern F1 car, yet has plenty of time ahead of him for his career to develop.

That said, one disadvantage he does have is that he doesn't bring a significant amount of sponsorship with him, and that has often spoken louder than actions in recent years...

To be honest I think that one of the "new" teams should sign one of them.

BaconLettuceNinja wrote:I'd like to see James Calado in F1 next season, with Dillmann taking that Lotus GP2 seat.

Kovalainen to Ferrari, Calado to Caterham anyone?

I don't think so.

The problem with GP2 at the moment is that it's a bloated mess of pay drivers, which has left the series with a very shallow talent pool. There's a few standout drivers - Calado, Nasr, Gutierrez - but it's very difficult to judge their actual talent. Calado would be better off running in Formula Renault, which is why I found it very strange that Lotus didn't place him there after Stanaway's accident.

And I very much doubt that anyone cmopeting in a Lotus-backed car will join Caterham in Formula 1.

With Jenson floundering about in the midfield, do you think he should be sacked? I think so, if he keeps going on this dry spell.

JeremyMcClean wrote:With Jenson floundering about in the midfield, do you think he should be sacked? I think so, if he keeps going on this dry spell.

He was actually pretty good today - only 8 seconds behind Hamilton, after missing Q2. At this point, I think McLaren should focus on making the car better - it's clearly not good enough right now. Definitely behind Red Bull, Ferrari, Lotus, and maybe Mercedes too.

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:

JeremyMcClean wrote:With Jenson floundering about in the midfield, do you think he should be sacked? I think so, if he keeps going on this dry spell.

He was actually pretty good today - only 8 seconds behind Hamilton, after missing Q2. At this point, I think McLaren should focus on making the car better - it's clearly not good enough right now. Definitely behind Red Bull, Ferrari, Lotus, and maybe Mercedes too.

I agree. Of the two McLaren drivers I think he had the better race today, despite finishing 10th to Hamilton's 8th. The car is just awful at the moment though, they have nothing on Red Bull Ferrari and Lotus, and are currently probably comparable to Mercedes. Really dramatic fall considering the start of the year they had when everyone was worrying they'd walk it.

AndreaModa wrote:

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:

JeremyMcClean wrote:With Jenson floundering about in the midfield, do you think he should be sacked? I think so, if he keeps going on this dry spell.

He was actually pretty good today - only 8 seconds behind Hamilton, after missing Q2. At this point, I think McLaren should focus on making the car better - it's clearly not good enough right now. Definitely behind Red Bull, Ferrari, Lotus, and maybe Mercedes too.

I agree. Of the two McLaren drivers I think he had the better race today, despite finishing 10th to Hamilton's 8th. The car is just awful at the moment though, they have nothing on Red Bull Ferrari and Lotus, and are currently probably comparable to Mercedes. Really dramatic fall considering the start of the year they had when everyone was worrying they'd walk it.

For me, he was piss poor. He only got 10th because Kobayashi fluffed his last pitstop and Hülkenberg went off trying to take back position from Senna.

Oh, I agree, you can't really say he had a good race by any stretch of the imagination, but in comparison to Hamilton, I think he had better spells during the race, and made the most of his strategy. Ultimately both have been let down by what is turning out to be a pretty poor McLaren car and both are just doing the best they can with it I think.

I'm wondering if the higher nose that McLaren introduced in Spain has affected Button's performances as such, with him being a driver who is affected by set-up more than most, because he dominated Australia, could have won in Malaysia had he not suffered brain fade, would have won in China had the pitcrew not suffered brain fade and was decent enough in Bahrain. Since the higher nose has been used, he was poor in Spain, the less said about Monaco and Canada the better, and was underwhelming today and in Valencia. He just doesn't seem able to really drill the car in it's current spec.

Maybe Jenson will long for the days when a team could run two different cars, not just two slightly different specs of the same car. What say you, René? "Sacre Bleu, why 'ave ze team given me ze old RS01 when Jean-Pierre gets ze new car, eh?"

East Londoner wrote:I'm wondering if the higher nose that McLaren introduced in Spain has affected Button's performances as such, with him being a driver who is affected by set-up more than most, because he dominated Australia, could have won in Malaysia had he not suffered brain fade, would have won in China had the pitcrew not suffered brain fade and was decent enough in Bahrain. Since the higher nose has been used, he was poor in Spain, the less said about Monaco and Canada the better, and was underwhelming today and in Valencia. He just doesn't seem able to really drill the car in it's current spec.

Yeah, you don't suddenly become a bad driver overnight. There's normally a technical reason for a sudden drop off in performance if a driver is normally good. Let's not forget, Jenson was showing Lewis who was boss last year.

Perhaps the changes for the 2012 car compared to 2011 have favoured Hamilton's style more, and therefore now that the relative performance of the car has dropped, Hamilton is able to extract a little bit more from the car and make Button look bad as a result.

I honestly still don't understand why Button has been so slow recently.