Grand Prix Rejects

DanielPT wrote:

Yannick wrote:Just woke up and decided to switch on the computer. Surprisingly, the webstream for qualifying is still on so I start it and see: heavy rain.

Has there been some qualifying action happening today already or will they start tomorrow in the order of the numbers on the car's noses? If it's the latter, McLaren might have a chance in the race

Q1 is done. People used itermediates, so it is only in Race Control's stupid heads that there are no conditions...

I'd say that's odd and only goes to further prove getting up early in the morning to watch F1 is not really worth it.

It would have been great to see them start in the order of their car numbers, though. Why don't they just delete Q1 results and do that?

FIA, go bathplug yourself. I will now calmly ponder if I will see or not the GP...

What. The. Bathplug. Was. That.

WaffleCat wrote:ROTR to Race control. Seriously,guys.

agree

Has someone actually explained to Race Control that the weather forecasts for tomorrow morning actually don't look that much better than right now yet?

Back to bed I go. Whether I finish watching qually tomorrow, I have no idea. Might miss it so I can get up to watch the race...

Alright, that means Q2 and Q3 happen at 1 a.m. CET and the race happens at 7 a.m. - I hope you people enjoy pulling all-nighters

In a really bad mood now. What an anti-climax.

Oh Bernie, you silly goose.

Shizuka wrote:

DanielPT wrote:Meanwhile in Portuguese TV they are discussing the fault of Ronnie Peterson's death. They concluded it could not be Nigel Mansell due to not even being present in that GP...

What is wrong with them!?

Oh, the good old commentary on Portuguese TV. How I miss Domingos Piedade and Gabriel Alves.

Session over for now and it's 1-0 in the Bottas-Maldonado qualy battle. Good. Bottas has kept his nose clean so far, while the Reverend is already showing the strain, calling the car "undriveable". It usually took Alesi 3 races to say that...

I think this is kind of funny. I'll find out tomorrow when I get up who will have won the race.

Yannick wrote:It would have been great to see them start in the order of their car numbers, though. Why don't they just delete Q1 results and do that?

I'm actually glad that they didn't do this. I would have hated to see the Q1 results deleted. If you hit the wall, you deserve to start from the back.

RealRacingRoots wrote:Oh Bernie, you silly goose.

I really really doubt it's anything to do with Bernie.

Meatwad wrote:

Yannick wrote:It would have been great to see them start in the order of their car numbers, though. Why don't they just delete Q1 results and do that?

I'm actually glad that they didn't do this. I would have hated to see the Q1 results deleted. If you hit the wall, you deserve to start from the back.

Put those knocked out in Q1 at the back, take the remaining 16 and put them in according to car number. Simples.

fjackdaw wrote:

RealRacingRoots wrote:Oh Bernie, you silly goose.

I really really doubt it's anything to do with Bernie.

It's Bernie's fault we have qualifying and the race starting so late in the afternoon in the first place.

With delays in qualifying like this, I wonder what do they do if at a race, the rain is so bad, they can't run the race. Is it cancelled, or do they come back on the Monday?

I fear this might repeat itself next week, because a certain old man thinks that it's intelligent to run a motorsports event in the afternoon in a tropical climate.

f1-gast wrote:Why did Ecclestoned ever decide to remove the Monsoon tyres....


Though kinda good qualifying although im affraid our national hero van der Garde will be Verstappen 2.0 though without the results Jos The Boss had... hope im wrong.
Think VDG could be in the second qualifying if the Mexican with the difficult name in the Sauber that looks like an HRT didn't crash at all.
Great to see Sutil back so far

As I understand things, it was the tyre manufacturers themselves that asked the FIA to remove the requirement for monsoon tyres in order to cut their costs.

Their argument was that by the time the weather conditions would be bad enough for the monsoon tyres to be needed the medical helicopter would normally have to be grounded due to the weather conditions, at which point the FIA has to stop the session. Since that was the case, manufacturing monsoon tyres was a fairly large waste of money for them (since it wasn't just the cost of manufacturing the tyres, but also the costs of R&D and transportation), and in the end their arguments prevailed and they were axed on cost grounds.

Bathplugging unbelievable. What has happened today is, from my point of view, the biggest farce in F1 since the 2005 US fiasco. A qualifying session couldn't be held because of the incompetence of race control, which adds to the stupidity of trying to hold the race so late, local time. The track was nearly ok for intermediates the whole time, yet the cars weren't allowed to go out. If Q1 had started as it was scheduled, with all the cars running I'm absolutely sure the track would have dried a lot and Q3 would have been easily done on intermediates.

This night I'm going out to celebrate my birthday and I'm absolutely sure I'm not going to be back home to watch Q2 and Q3. I don't even WANT. And then there's no point in getting up early to watch a race whose starting grid I won't know. Therefore, it's looking like I will willingly miss a race for the first time in more than a decade. I feel cheated after today. Some people went out and crashed in Q1? Sure, that's always happened when it rains! And if you look at it you will find out that the people crashing out are the same, most of the time: rookie drivers, Maldonados, Massas... from time to time you get a Hamilton or an Alonso spinning or even crashing, but there is a pattern, and it means that racing under those conditions isn't a lottery.

Sorry if this sounds bitter, but it's exactly how I feel. They are destroying the sport I love, and this is just another bit. At this point I would prefer that they forbide racing under the rain: at least, we would know what to expect, and Pirelli would save quite a bit of money. In fact I wonder whether Pirelli will ask the FIA to stop supplying wet tyres, as racing with those tyres has already been de facto banned.

Wizzie wrote:

the Masked Lapwing wrote:There was a Carrera Cup race at about 6:20 yesterday where visibility was zero by the end of it, and that was with clear skies. This qualifying will be ended by rain or bad light. It's like a friggen cricket match...

Speaking of which, why haven't we lost to the Indians yet Lappy?

Several hours later and we might as well forfeit this match as well judging by the way Clarke's mob are going. We have absolutely no hope for the Ashes series later this year

What Ferrim said.

I'm sure they raced in far worse conditions than this at places the old Spa and Nurburgring in the 60s and 70s. What about the 1976 Japanese GP? And the cars are way safer now than they were then.

They need to grow some pairs.

Oh and no grid positions by car number please (unless it's reversed based on the 16 who got through so Toro Rosso would be on the front row). A Red Bull lockout is really what we need. And it would be grossly unfair on Mercedes - not to mention putting them near Grosjean.

Well, qualifying has been officially pushed back to Sunday morning. I remember that in similar circumstances at Melbourne in 2005, they did not postpone the qualifying session. In 2005, they had that weird two-attempt quali session that also ran in the morning, so everyone got another crack at pole. This time around, they could have definitely run the session by the looks of the rain. Once again, we must deal with another farcical situation that comes up just about every week in Formula 1. Seriously guys, you're making the F1RWRS look like a competent organization! (just kidding Aerond)

tristan1117 wrote:Well, qualifying has been officially pushed back to Sunday morning. I remember that in similar circumstances at Melbourne in 2005, they did not postpone the qualifying session. In 2005, they had that weird two-attempt quali session that also ran in the morning, so everyone got another crack at pole. This time around, they could have definitely run the session by the looks of the rain.

I remember that qualifying session, as it was the first qualifying session I ever watched and I'm pretty sure it was red flagged for a considerable period of time midway through. Although, that was probably because Sato threw it into the turn 8 wall on his hotlap in the pouring rain. It did make for a fascinating grid though as you had Villeneuve in P4, the two Red Bulls on row three and Alonso mired amongst the Jordans.

Although in reality, it was always going to be a Fisichella benefit on Sunday due to the ridiculous aggregate time rule and the fact he already was a second up on the field after Saturday

James1978 wrote:What Ferrim said.

I'm sure they raced in far worse conditions than this at places the old Spa and Nurburgring in the 60s and 70s. What about the 1976 Japanese GP? And the cars are way safer now than they were then.

They need to grow some pairs.

Oh and no grid positions by car number please (unless it's reversed based on the 16 who got through so Toro Rosso would be on the front row). A Red Bull lockout is really what we need. And it would be grossly unfair on Mercedes - not to mention putting them near Grosjean.

They did hold races in conditions that were as bad, and worse, in the past, but often against the complaints of the drivers and, especially in the 1960's, because the track owners could twist the arms of the teams into racing by refusing to pay the teams their cut of the entry money.

However, it is difficult to compare the mentality of that era of racing to today in many ways - we are talking about an era when medical facilities at most venues were effectively optional (medical centres were not compulsory until 1980) and the sport was effectively immune from external criticism because the sport was not widely reported on by the mainstream press, whilst many of those who might have wanted to raise criticism were forced to stay silent (for example, the marshals who tried to put out the fire that claimed Courage's life at the 1970 Dutch GP were instructed to suppress the details of that accident in case it damaged the reputation of the rack owners).

As to what might happen if the supplementary qualifying session is also rained out - I'm not entirely sure what would happen there, but I think that the grid would then be arranged based on the results of the practise sessions instead.

mario wrote:As to what might happen if the supplementary qualifying session is also rained out - I'm not entirely sure what would happen there, but I think that the grid would then be arranged based on the results of the practise sessions instead.

No, Charlie Whiting confirmed that if a session is not run, cars are aligned by numbers with the remaining spots being taken as established in previous session (if existent) - should tomorrow morning be canceled as well, the grid would look as follows:

1. Sebastian Vettel
2. Mark Webber
3. Fernando Alonso
4. Felipe Massa
5. Jenson Button
6. Sergio Pérez
7. Kimi Räikkönen
8. Romain Grosjean
9. Nico Rosberg
10. Lewis Hamilton
11. Nico Hülkenberg
12. Paul Di Resta
13. Adrian Sutil
14. Valtteri Bottas
15. Jean-Eric Vergne
16. Daniel Ricciardo
17. Pastor Maldonado
18. Esteban Gutierrez
19. Jules Bianchi
20. Max Chilton
21. Giedo van der Garde
22. Charles Pic

If Q1 doesn't happen it's therefore obviously 1-23 in order.

And suddenly my prediction for Vettel taking pole might pay off somehow...

JeremyMcClean wrote:And suddenly my prediction for Vettel taking pole might pay off somehow...

I think the reason why they postponed Qually was because Sebabyian Rattel was throwing a paddy again. "Waaah, undrivable".

I want to punch him. And the FIA. And Bernie. Hard.

TheBigJ wrote:

JeremyMcClean wrote:And suddenly my prediction for Vettel taking pole might pay off somehow...

I think the reason why they postponed Qually was because Sebabyian Rattel was throwing a paddy again. "Waaah, undrivable".

I want to punch him. And the FIA. And Bernie. Hard.

Did he say that? I heard The Rev saying that the Williams was undriveable, but didn't hear anyone else.

I'm going to risk having my head bitten off here, but I generally agree with the decision to stop the qualy session. Mind you, I haven't seen the highlights on the BBC yet.

My rationale: it's the first race of the season, and the first of 4 away races. The teams will be short-ish on spare parts, everybody is still learning to work with the new cars and teams, and a massive spat of crashes is only going to make both issues a lot worse. So, logically, stop it! It doesn't affect anyone except the people who paid a ticket to stand in the pouring rain.

Is there something that can be improved? Maybe bring back the full rain tyres. And definitely qualify and race earlier, ignoring the Euro audiences. But risk a serious pile up for no benefit? No way.

The BBC highlights certainly didn't make it look like the wrong decision

CarlosFerreira wrote:I'm going to risk having my head bitten off here, but I generally agree with the decision to stop the qualy session. Mind you, I haven't seen the highlights on the BBC yet.

My rationale: it's the first race of the season, and the first of 4 away races. The teams will be short-ish on spare parts, everybody is still learning to work with the new cars and teams, and a massive spat of crashes is only going to make both issues a lot worse. So, logically, stop it! It doesn't affect anyone except the people who paid a ticket to stand in the pouring rain.

Is there something that can be improved? Maybe bring back the full rain tyres. And definitely qualify and race earlier, ignoring the Euro audiences. But risk a serious pile up for no benefit? No way.

These are the best drivers in the world for crying out loud!No risk for a pile up imo,it's qualy not a race.Even if it was a race the onlyones affected are not the people who attend,its everyone!From worldwide viewers,robbed from an exciting and unpredictable race,to the smaller teams which ofcourse are gonna finish last in a dry,predictable race.With todays decisions we are never gonna see a full wet race again...
And it really bothers me that drivers who are good in wet conditions aren't allowed to show their talent.Hulkenberg probably would've have won at Brazil,if it wasn't for that utterly unnecessary SC situation.When are we gonna see again magic moments like,Schumacher's '96 win at Catalunya,Panis' '96 Monaco,Silvestone '98?My guess,sadly never again...

Dim wrote:

CarlosFerreira wrote:I'm going to risk having my head bitten off here, but I generally agree with the decision to stop the qualy session. Mind you, I haven't seen the highlights on the BBC yet.

My rationale: it's the first race of the season, and the first of 4 away races. The teams will be short-ish on spare parts, everybody is still learning to work with the new cars and teams, and a massive spat of crashes is only going to make both issues a lot worse. So, logically, stop it! It doesn't affect anyone except the people who paid a ticket to stand in the pouring rain.

Is there something that can be improved? Maybe bring back the full rain tyres. And definitely qualify and race earlier, ignoring the Euro audiences. But risk a serious pile up for no benefit? No way.

These are the best drivers in the world for crying out loud!No risk for a pile up imo,it's qualy not a race.Even if it was a race the onlyones affected are not the people who attend,its everyone!From worldwide viewers,robbed from an exciting and unpredictable race,to the smaller teams which ofcourse are gonna finish last in a dry,predictable race.With todays decisions we are never gonna see a full wet race again...
And it really bothers me that drivers who are good in wet conditions aren't allowed to show their talent.Hulkenberg probably would've have won at Brazil,if it wasn't for that utterly unnecessary SC situation.When are we gonna see again magic moments like,Schumacher's '96 win at Catalunya,Panis' '96 Monaco,Silvestone '98?My guess,sadly never again...

That's all very nice, but a wing costs a few thousand pounds, a suspension arm a few tens of thousand arms, and a new tub... well, only the accountants will know. Add transportation costs, factory overtime, and you're looking at too much money.

With regards to the fans... we don't pay, mate. We can shout and vent on the forum, but F1 works on its own logic.

CarlosFerreira wrote:

Dim wrote:

CarlosFerreira wrote:I'm going to risk having my head bitten off here, but I generally agree with the decision to stop the qualy session. Mind you, I haven't seen the highlights on the BBC yet.

My rationale: it's the first race of the season, and the first of 4 away races. The teams will be short-ish on spare parts, everybody is still learning to work with the new cars and teams, and a massive spat of crashes is only going to make both issues a lot worse. So, logically, stop it! It doesn't affect anyone except the people who paid a ticket to stand in the pouring rain.

Is there something that can be improved? Maybe bring back the full rain tyres. And definitely qualify and race earlier, ignoring the Euro audiences. But risk a serious pile up for no benefit? No way.

These are the best drivers in the world for crying out loud!No risk for a pile up imo,it's qualy not a race.Even if it was a race the onlyones affected are not the people who attend,its everyone!From worldwide viewers,robbed from an exciting and unpredictable race,to the smaller teams which ofcourse are gonna finish last in a dry,predictable race.With todays decisions we are never gonna see a full wet race again...
And it really bothers me that drivers who are good in wet conditions aren't allowed to show their talent.Hulkenberg probably would've have won at Brazil,if it wasn't for that utterly unnecessary SC situation.When are we gonna see again magic moments like,Schumacher's '96 win at Catalunya,Panis' '96 Monaco,Silvestone '98?My guess,sadly never again...

That's all very nice, but a wing costs a few thousand pounds, a suspension arm a few tens of thousand arms, and a new tub... well, only the accountants will know. Add transportation costs, factory overtime, and you're looking at too much money.

With regards to the fans... we don't pay, mate. We can shout and vent on the forum, but F1 works on its own logic.

Well then, I could accept that logic if it was formally used by FIA and not being like this (i.e. they would assume that F1 don't race in rain just like NASCAR doesn't). That would save Pirelli many thousands in flying in wet tyres that aren't used anyway. The question here about the conditions was that, after 15 min of cars going around in wet tyres the track was not only good for intermediates as they were being 2 secs per lap faster and getting faster each passing minute. And if the track was good for intermediates at the end of Q1 while still raining, then I suspect that it wasn't at its worse at the beggining of Q2. Also, if they sent the cars out for Q1 without no noticeable gains in conditions after 30 min delay, it is ridiculous justifying that delay in the first place. Finally, the race and qualifying starting time, when they know it can get like this, are as daft as it can get.

GwilymJJames wrote:

TheBigJ wrote:

JeremyMcClean wrote:And suddenly my prediction for Vettel taking pole might pay off somehow...

I think the reason why they postponed Qually was because Sebabyian Rattel was throwing a paddy again. "Waaah, undrivable".

I want to punch him. And the FIA. And Bernie. Hard.

Did he say that? I heard The Rev saying that the Williams was undriveable, but didn't hear anyone else.

TheBigJ, I presume that you're being flippant with that comment since, as far as I am aware, Vettel made no comments about the conditions - the drivers who have been most supportive about the decision to postpone qualifying until tomorrow have been the two McLaren drivers, if anything.

CarlosFerreira wrote:I'm going to risk having my head bitten off here, but I generally agree with the decision to stop the qualy session. Mind you, I haven't seen the highlights on the BBC yet.

My rationale: it's the first race of the season, and the first of 4 away races. The teams will be short-ish on spare parts, everybody is still learning to work with the new cars and teams, and a massive spat of crashes is only going to make both issues a lot worse. So, logically, stop it! It doesn't affect anyone except the people who paid a ticket to stand in the pouring rain.

Is there something that can be improved? Maybe bring back the full rain tyres. And definitely qualify and race earlier, ignoring the Euro audiences. But risk a serious pile up for no benefit? No way.

There is also another aspect you could add to that, which is the fact that the drainage systems around the Albert Park circuit have a relatively low capacity because of the temporary nature of the track.

Overall, though, it is a difficult situation for the FIA to face - Whiting is ultimately having to rely on the feedback of the drivers, team personnel and the opinions of the medical car driver (van der Merwe was asked to inspect the circuit and provide his feedback on conditions). It is a frustrating decision in many ways, but it is not the sort of decision I imagine that Whiting would have made lightly or willingly.

DanielPT wrote:Well then, I could accept that logic if it was formally used by FIA and not being like this (i.e. they would assume that F1 don't race in rain just like NASCAR doesn't). That would save Pirelli many thousands in flying in wet tyres that aren't used anyway. The question here about the conditions was that, after 15 min of cars going around in wet tyres the track was not only good for intermediates as they were being 2 secs per lap faster and getting faster each passing minute. And if the track was good for intermediates at the end of Q1 while still raining, then I suspect that it wasn't at its worse at the beggining of Q2. Also, if they sent the cars out for Q1 without no noticeable gains in conditions after 30 min delay, it is ridiculous justifying that delay in the first place. Finally, the race and qualifying starting time, when they know it can get like this, are as daft as it can get.

I agree with this in general, but I still maintain the the spare parts situation (and the ensuing pressure from the teams) may well have forced the FIA's hand.

mario wrote:There is also another aspect you could add to that, which is the fact that the drainage systems around the Albert Park circuit have a relatively low capacity because of the temporary nature of the track.

A good point mario. I am watching the highlights now, and after Massa crashes in turn 11 it is clear his car spins into a BLOODY GINORMOUS lake.

I agree with CarlosFerreira and mario, the track's inability to clear water very well coupled with the rarity of spares makes it plenty reasonable to postpone qualifying. I can't blame them for it, as it probably is the best solution.

Wizzie wrote:

fjackdaw wrote:

RealRacingRoots wrote:Oh Bernie, you silly goose.

I really really doubt it's anything to do with Bernie.

It's Bernie's fault we have qualifying and the race starting so late in the afternoon in the first place.

Yes, but he didn't tell anyone they couldn't drive in the wet. He's the commercial rights holder, not the race director.

I think some people around here need to examine how they cope with disappointment.

I have a feeling the wets have an extremely small operating window. From last year and also today you can see drivers complaining it is too wet and then suddenly go intermediate just a few laps after that even though it is still almost as wet as before. Is the tread too small or is the tyre too hard/soft i have no idea, but they could at least try to improve things.

Or could it be, that the current formula just isn't capable of driving in the wet as well as before. It could be aero related or driver positioning. I remember seeing a video that showed the drivers point of view and you could hardly see anything at all. Maybe the spray is taking that small bit away and before the drivers were somehow better (Higher?) situated in chassis.