Grand Prix Rejects

DanielPT wrote:

pi314159 wrote:Kamui Kobayashi has been very critical about the Renault engine, despite the improved reliability. He said the Renault-engined teams are 20-30 km/h down on top speed compared to the Mercedes-engined teams, and that the acceleration out of the slow corners is a problem as well. Sounds like there is still much work for Renault.

Well, the analysis of the times suggest that Kobayashi may not be on the wrong there. Either the engine is still a bit detuned or it is clearly lacking compared to its rivals. If one looks at the troubles hitting the Renault engine forcing their engineers to problem fixing while other engines staff focus on performance, this statement from Kamui looks indeed consistent even taking into account that the Caterham is probably slower than more established teams.

So, reliability issues are starting to go away, but if that comes with a lack of power, then what will Renault do? It seems like Red Bull. One issue goes away, but another one comes about (or at least speculated). At least it no longer looks half similar to the Life.

go_Rubens wrote:

DanielPT wrote:

pi314159 wrote:Kamui Kobayashi has been very critical about the Renault engine, despite the improved reliability. He said the Renault-engined teams are 20-30 km/h down on top speed compared to the Mercedes-engined teams, and that the acceleration out of the slow corners is a problem as well. Sounds like there is still much work for Renault.

Well, the analysis of the times suggest that Kobayashi may not be on the wrong there. Either the engine is still a bit detuned or it is clearly lacking compared to its rivals. If one looks at the troubles hitting the Renault engine forcing their engineers to problem fixing while other engines staff focus on performance, this statement from Kamui looks indeed consistent even taking into account that the Caterham is probably slower than more established teams.

So, reliability issues are starting to go away, but if that comes with a lack of power, then what will Renault do? It seems like Red Bull. One issue goes away, but another one comes about (or at least speculated). At least it no longer looks half similar to the Life.

20 to 30km is a lot to find if Caterham have turned the wick up on the motor to near full power. I cannot see why not. Now they have started pumping in the long distance laps. Also the fact they have to lock down the engine spec soon. I know they give a leeway on fixing certain things. After looking at the times today and tyre compounds i had a feeling they might struggle to get in the 107% rule on some tracks. lol it's Lotus and indycar all over again )

Pastor Maldonado is making his public debut for Lotus in Bahrain today. Here are the thoughts of new team-mate (and fellow father) Romain Grosjean on their emerging relationship:

"So far, so good. We've met a few times in the factory. He's nice. We can speak about babies, we can speak about racing."

They are probably speaking about crashes, too.

Jocke1 wrote:

Pastor Maldonado is making his public debut for Lotus in Bahrain today. Here are the thoughts of new team-mate (and fellow father) Romain Grosjean on their emerging relationship:

"So far, so good. We've met a few times in the factory. He's nice. We can speak about babies, we can speak about racing."

They are probably speaking about crashes, too.

Okay, you know what? I'm getting quite tired of this insistence that all Grosjean and Maldonado will do this year is crash.

Salamander wrote:

Jocke1 wrote:

Pastor Maldonado is making his public debut for Lotus in Bahrain today. Here are the thoughts of new team-mate (and fellow father) Romain Grosjean on their emerging relationship:

"So far, so good. We've met a few times in the factory. He's nice. We can speak about babies, we can speak about racing."

They are probably speaking about crashes, too.

Okay, you know what? I'm getting quite tired of this insistence that all Grosjean and Maldonado will do this year is crash.

Makes me wonder if some people actually saw Grosjean in the 2nd half of last season. Both have a good chance this season

Salamander wrote:Okay, you know what? I'm getting quite tired of this insistence that all Grosjean and Maldonado will do this year is crash.

Given the way the Renaults are going at this moment, it will be more like park the car at the side of the track.

Another day another failure for Red Bull.
This season will definitely prove if Vettel is a great in my eyes!

rachel1990 wrote:Another day another failure for Red Bull.
This season will definitely prove if Vettel is a great in my eyes!

I said that to Sgt Pepper after Jerez. I think everyone in the world who's doubted Seb will be itching to find out the answer to this question

Jenson Button is engaged. Not entirely relevant I know but it was announced today in Sakhir. So congratulations to Jenson and Jessie.

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:

rachel1990 wrote:Another day another failure for Red Bull.
This season will definitely prove if Vettel is a great in my eyes!

I said that to Sgt Pepper after Jerez. I think everyone in the world who's doubted Seb will be itching to find out the answer to this question

It is difficult to prove one's greatness if the car doesn't last a race distance.

To be honest, I think most of the people that don't rate Vettel will never do so. Even if he wins 20 races in a row, starting last in each race and outpacing everyone by three seconds a lap.

Meatwad wrote:

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:

rachel1990 wrote:Another day another failure for Red Bull.
This season will definitely prove if Vettel is a great in my eyes!

I said that to Sgt Pepper after Jerez. I think everyone in the world who's doubted Seb will be itching to find out the answer to this question

It is difficult to prove one's greatness if the car doesn't last a race distance.

To be honest, I think most of the people that don't rate Vettel will never do so. Even if he wins 20 races in a row, starting last in each race and outpacing everyone by three seconds a lap.

Ah yes there was those concerns about the lack of reliability. And what if when the reliability issues for everyone are solved and then RBR do their traditional late season spurt?

Meatwad wrote:To be honest, I think most of the people that don't rate Vettel will never do so. Even if he wins 20 races in a row, starting last in each race and outpacing everyone by three seconds a lap.

I think if you perceive the Vettel criticism stemming from him not having won enough races in a row then you've missed the point entirely.

Nice to hear Jenson's got engaged, good luck to him.

SgtPepper wrote:

Meatwad wrote:To be honest, I think most of the people that don't rate Vettel will never do so. Even if he wins 20 races in a row, starting last in each race and outpacing everyone by three seconds a lap.

I think if you perceive the Vettel criticism stemming from him not having won enough races in a row then you've missed the point entirely.

Nice to hear Jenson's got engaged, good luck to him.

Back to your old tricks Pepper? Honestly, you will never think Vettel is a "worthy" or "good" or whatever. And that's fine, we get it, you hate Vettel. Everyone is allowed your opinion. But must you continue to troll Vettel threads? Really? We all know you're just waiting for the RBR to continue to be shite so you can say "See I told you so! Hahahaha." You will never change your opinion of him, and that's fine, you don't have to, but don't act like this, please.

Salamander wrote:Okay, you know what? I'm getting quite tired of this insistence that all Grosjean will do this year is crash.

Fixed. Pastor is still hopeless though.

And Jenson wasn't married to her? They were together forever. Why bother if you can get the milk for free?

Vettel is a great imo. It's just that his greatness is overshadowed by the disparity of his machinery compared to his rivals, so his ridiculous records automatically mean less and his achievements inspire far less than Hulk's or Bottas' rare cases of punching far above their (car's) weight.

When given a car the likes of the RB9 any decent driver would do well but a great would squeeze as much dominance as possible and allowed by his engineers. Vettel was supposed to trounce the field after the 2013 summer tyre change and he did so. Since it was expected the net result is 'meh' from the audience, but it was made worse by Ferrari and Mercedes deciding to fold early on so as to devote more attention to 2014, and other than Grosjean, no driver had any desire or oportunity to chase him.

If stepping up and giving everything to match the car's performance isn't enough to make him a great, then consider Webber. If we remove Vettel from the picture and put someone unspectacular but good in his place, the WDC title fight would have been much closer with Webber probably doing enough to win. I suspect that Alonso would have been in it until the death and overall the 2013 title fight would have been a much more even contest. Maybe without Seb, Webber would have found extra strength (not that he lacked much as a driver). But it takes someone of Vettel's or Alonso's or Hamilton's calibre to deliver the kind of absolute authority and domination we witnessed in 2013.

Perhaps not at all ironically, the greater the feat, the more disinterested the general public was. In my opinion this is because Vettel was not challenged enough. Using the pace advantage he had at his disposal simply wasn't exciting. In Singapore he did what a great should have done when unleashed. But it wasn't exciting. Schumacher enjoyed stress-free titles and those are not exactly memorable either. But he had much closer contests, was defeated when close to victory and hadn't enjoyed a near career-long benefit of superior machinery.

It's really not his fault that he's unapreciated. And i don't really know why he is disliked. Perhaps if he were ever the underdog in a fight (he sort of was against Webber in 09 but won that by '10) more people would want him to win. Instead most want someone to crush him already and probably a fair few have some suggestions of where to put that finger of his. But i do wish some more blame for VETTELWINSLOL would be leveled against others who failed to challenge Red Bull through politicking, incompetence, or lack of engineering/aero ability.

In the end it takes a driver to get the most out of a car and no one understood better how to deliver the goods in 2013 than Vettel, Alonso and Kimi when he could be arsed (was paid). So why not a great then? I will concede that emotionaly, Vettel's results mean far less, so if that's the criteria then he perhaps falls short. But be fair and recognise that he hadn't chosen his opponents, nor how decent their machinery would be.

Wallio wrote:

SgtPepper wrote:

Meatwad wrote:To be honest, I think most of the people that don't rate Vettel will never do so. Even if he wins 20 races in a row, starting last in each race and outpacing everyone by three seconds a lap.

I think if you perceive the Vettel criticism stemming from him not having won enough races in a row then you've missed the point entirely.

Nice to hear Jenson's got engaged, good luck to him.

Back to your old tricks Pepper? Honestly, you will never think Vettel is a "worthy" or "good" or whatever. And that's fine, we get it, you hate Vettel. Everyone is allowed your opinion. But must you continue to troll Vettel threads? Really? We all know you're just waiting for the RBR to continue to be shite so you can say "See I told you so! Hahahaha." You will never change your opinion of him, and that's fine, you don't have to, but don't act like this, please.

Calm your boots Wallio, I wasn't getting into the debate one way or another, merely pointing out what I felt was a missed side of the question - however if you let yourself get irate enough that your actual sig is dedicated to me then maybe it's some form of backwards compliment? I find the idea of the Red Bull falling behind interesting not just because I think the sport needs it in general after the last 4 years, but as Freeze-Kimi pointed out I too am interested in seeing how Vettel does in inferior machinery. If he proves his critics wrong, I'll be the first to admit it - will still never like his personality or behaviour, but will openly admit he is a better driver than I thought at the end of 2013, and I would hope for the same from you.

SgtPepper wrote:
Calm your boots Wallio, I wasn't getting into the debate one way or another, merely pointing out what I felt was a missed side of the question - however if you let yourself get irate enough that your actual sig is dedicated to me then maybe it's some form of backwards compliment? I find the idea of the Red Bull falling behind interesting not just because I think the sport needs it in general after the last 4 years, but as Freeze-Kimi pointed out I too am interested in seeing how Vettel does in inferior machinery. If he proves his critics wrong, I'll be the first to admit it - will still never like his personality or behaviour, but will openly admit he is a better driver than I thought at the end of 2013, and I would hope for the same from you.

And as always you're never trolling. I know I shouldn't let you bother me, but damn son, you just don't quit. And yes my sig is about you. Because you have a rep here, all you do is troll Vettel threads and post Emma Watson pictures. Neither of which adds anything to anything. You would think having a sticky created about you would get you to stop, but nope. Another season of this is coming I can see. Just when I thought it was safe to come back to the Stoddart forum......

Mods is there an "Ignore" feature on here?

Wallio wrote:Mods is there an "Ignore" feature on here?

User Control Panel>Friends & Foes>Manage foes

Wallio wrote:Mods is there an "Ignore" feature on here?

Yes there is: User Control Panel->Friends & Foes->Manage foes.

Anyway, I understand people having different perceptions on Vettel's "greatness", but please keep it civil, OK?

Nuppiz wrote:

Wallio wrote:Mods is there an "Ignore" feature on here?

Yes there is: User Control Panel->Friends & Foes->Manage foes.

Anyway, I acknowledge that people have different perceptions on Vettel's "greatness", but please keep it civil, OK?

Thanks to you, I now can.

Erm...


Moving on, things are starting to look very difficult indeed for the Renault teams. I mean, their inability to post times similar to other engine powered teams are evident and we are almost past two thirds of pre-season testing. Time is short to do some decent mileage, long runs, short runs, work on set-ups, understand the car and decide where to move development. The scenario where we have Mercedes teams battling Ferrari and then some Renault teams trundling along way behind because their engine proved itself unfit to the challenge is looking ever more real by each testing day that goes by. I am fine with that scenario though as it used to be that way not that long ago. Except that we now live on a day and age where "the show" rules the rooster. I can only imagine the histrionics of some media about it...

Salamander wrote:

Jocke1 wrote:

Pastor Maldonado is making his public debut for Lotus in Bahrain today. Here are the thoughts of new team-mate (and fellow father) Romain Grosjean on their emerging relationship:

"So far, so good. We've met a few times in the factory. He's nice. We can speak about babies, we can speak about racing."

They are probably speaking about crashes, too.

Okay, you know what? I'm getting quite tired of this insistence that all Grosjean and Maldonado will do this year is crash.

Woah!


I meant they are speaking about their past crashes.

DanielPT wrote:Erm...


Moving on, things are starting to look very difficult indeed for the Renault teams. I mean, their inability to post times similar to other engine powered teams are evident and we are almost past two thirds of pre-season testing. Time is short to do some decent mileage, long runs, short runs, work on set-ups, understand the car and decide where to move development. The scenario where we have Mercedes teams battling Ferrari and then some Renault teams trundling along way behind because their engine proved itself unfit to the challenge is looking ever more real by each testing day that goes by. I am fine with that scenario though as it used to be that way not that long ago. Except that we now live on a day and age where "the show" rules the rooster. I can only imagine the histrionics of some media about it...

Between the times, and what Kamui has said about top end, I would say the teams only have the wick at 80% or so. I wonder if it would be worth it to set one car to "grenade spec" and try to get a hot lap just to see how far away they are, consequences be damned.

Wallio wrote:

DanielPT wrote:Erm...


Moving on, things are starting to look very difficult indeed for the Renault teams. I mean, their inability to post times similar to other engine powered teams are evident and we are almost past two thirds of pre-season testing. Time is short to do some decent mileage, long runs, short runs, work on set-ups, understand the car and decide where to move development. The scenario where we have Mercedes teams battling Ferrari and then some Renault teams trundling along way behind because their engine proved itself unfit to the challenge is looking ever more real by each testing day that goes by. I am fine with that scenario though as it used to be that way not that long ago. Except that we now live on a day and age where "the show" rules the rooster. I can only imagine the histrionics of some media about it...

Between the times, and what Kamui has said about top end, I would say the teams only have the wick at 80% or so. I wonder if it would be worth it to set one car to "grenade spec" and try to get a hot lap just to see how far away they are, consequences be damned.

I'd quite like to see this. It would give a better perspective of Renault's performance. Or is the electronics system that runs the ERS too fragile to be run at 100% for a whole few laps?

go_Rubens wrote:

Wallio wrote:

DanielPT wrote:Erm...


Moving on, things are starting to look very difficult indeed for the Renault teams. I mean, their inability to post times similar to other engine powered teams are evident and we are almost past two thirds of pre-season testing. Time is short to do some decent mileage, long runs, short runs, work on set-ups, understand the car and decide where to move development. The scenario where we have Mercedes teams battling Ferrari and then some Renault teams trundling along way behind because their engine proved itself unfit to the challenge is looking ever more real by each testing day that goes by. I am fine with that scenario though as it used to be that way not that long ago. Except that we now live on a day and age where "the show" rules the rooster. I can only imagine the histrionics of some media about it...

Between the times, and what Kamui has said about top end, I would say the teams only have the wick at 80% or so. I wonder if it would be worth it to set one car to "grenade spec" and try to get a hot lap just to see how far away they are, consequences be damned.

I'd quite like to see this. It would give a better perspective of Renault's performance. Or is the electronics system that runs the ERS too fragile to be run at 100% for a whole few laps?

Well, they can run as many engines as they want in testing can't they? Its only the season where they are restricted. Push it to the limit at least once I say.

watka wrote:
Well, they can run as many engines as they want in testing can't they? Its only the season where they are restricted. Push it to the limit at least once I say.

Lotus today broke the 1:40 psychological barrier for the Renault engines. What if, both the times he came out to the track only to break down Life style was precisely to see that?

http://wtf1.co.uk/max-chiltons-bahrain-jump-gets-photoshopped/

Chilton gets photoshopped on his way home to Krypton.

watka wrote:Well, they can run as many engines as they want in testing can't they? Its only the season where they are restricted. Push it to the limit at least once I say.

I'd only do it tomorrow and then only just before the track closes. If I were to do that today and the engine blew, I'd waste a day just doing an engine change, and lose all the testing I could have done in the meantime. And testing doesn't come in cheap. Or even at all during the season for that matter. If you don't iron out the issues here you'll be forced to take races as test sessions.

Frentzen127 wrote:

watka wrote:Well, they can run as many engines as they want in testing can't they? Its only the season where they are restricted. Push it to the limit at least once I say.

I'd only do it tomorrow and then only just before the track closes. If I were to do that today and the engine blew, I'd waste a day just doing an engine change, and lose all the testing I could have done in the meantime. And testing doesn't come in cheap. Or even at all during the season for that matter. If you don't iron out the issues here you'll be forced to take races as test sessions.

Which right now is where Renault are heading. I don't think it's looking good at all. It looks like a nightmare.

go_Rubens wrote:

Wallio wrote:

DanielPT wrote:Erm...


Moving on, things are starting to look very difficult indeed for the Renault teams. I mean, their inability to post times similar to other engine powered teams are evident and we are almost past two thirds of pre-season testing. Time is short to do some decent mileage, long runs, short runs, work on set-ups, understand the car and decide where to move development. The scenario where we have Mercedes teams battling Ferrari and then some Renault teams trundling along way behind because their engine proved itself unfit to the challenge is looking ever more real by each testing day that goes by. I am fine with that scenario though as it used to be that way not that long ago. Except that we now live on a day and age where "the show" rules the rooster. I can only imagine the histrionics of some media about it...

Between the times, and what Kamui has said about top end, I would say the teams only have the wick at 80% or so. I wonder if it would be worth it to set one car to "grenade spec" and try to get a hot lap just to see how far away they are, consequences be damned.

I'd quite like to see this. It would give a better perspective of Renault's performance. Or is the electronics system that runs the ERS too fragile to be run at 100% for a whole few laps?

Moving onto a less acrimonious topic, the reports coming from the tests do seem to confirm that the energy recovery systems are the main limiting factor in terms of power output and delivery - the comments Kamui has made indicate that the electrical power input is occurring in an unpredictable manner at low speed due to the electrical power kicking in too quickly.
One of the suggested primary causes of Renault's problems is because the electrical motor is being damaged because there is an issue with balancing the power demand from the engine and electrical systems at the same time, an issue that would be even more severe with the power turned up (which is why there were rumours that Caterham had basically disconnected the ERS-K system in Jerez to prevent the chronic mechanical issues). With that in mind, it is probably the case that the teams can't turn the engines up even if they wanted to - the problems are precisely because they are trying to increase the total power output.

As an aside, it is worth noting that, if some of the figures coming from Bahrain are true, than Kamui wasn't exaggerating at all about the straight line speed deficit. There are reports that Alonso topped the speed traps with a top speed of 336kph, Magnussen on 330kph and Massa on 327kph - with the reports of an increase in peak power and the reduction in drag due to the removal of the beam wing, it would appear that the predictions of Rob White (of Renault Sport) that top speeds would increase by around 15-20kph around most circuits are about right (last year, the cars were hitting about 310-315kph in qualifying trim in Bahrain).
However, Vergne was clocking 308kph and both Kobayashi and Vettel were just clocking 301kph - in other words, Caterham, Toro Rosso and Red Bull have all lost 2-3kph in straight line speed at a time when their rivals are much, much faster in a straight line.

There are a few suggestions that this could also hurt the Renault powered teams quite heavily in one key area - deciding on gearing ratios for 2014. Given that all of the teams will have fixed gear ratios in 2014, getting to grips with the driveability and power curve of the engines now will be vital for determining your gear ratios for the rest of the season. If what Kamui says is true, then it implies that the power delivery of the Renault engines is not what the teams were expecting - which could make it difficult if they have made their gearing choices based on one usable power band but are given an engine with a quite different usable power band to what they expected.

mario wrote:Moving onto a less acrimonious topic, the reports coming from the tests do seem to confirm that the energy recovery systems are the main limiting factor in terms of power output and delivery - the comments Kamui has made indicate that the electrical power input is occurring in an unpredictable manner at low speed due to the electrical power kicking in too quickly.
One of the suggested primary causes of Renault's problems is because the electrical motor is being damaged because there is an issue with balancing the power demand from the engine and electrical systems at the same time, an issue that would be even more severe with the power turned up (which is why there were rumours that Caterham had basically disconnected the ERS-K system in Jerez to prevent the chronic mechanical issues). With that in mind, it is probably the case that the teams can't turn the engines up even if they wanted to - the problems are precisely because they are trying to increase the total power output.

As an aside, it is worth noting that, if some of the figures coming from Bahrain are true, than Kamui wasn't exaggerating at all about the straight line speed deficit. There are reports that Alonso topped the speed traps with a top speed of 336kph, Magnussen on 330kph and Massa on 327kph - with the reports of an increase in peak power and the reduction in drag due to the removal of the beam wing, it would appear that the predictions of Rob White (of Renault Sport) that top speeds would increase by around 15-20kph around most circuits are about right (last year, the cars were hitting about 310-315kph in qualifying trim in Bahrain).
However, Vergne was clocking 308kph and both Kobayashi and Vettel were just clocking 301kph - in other words, Caterham, Toro Rosso and Red Bull have all lost 2-3kph in straight line speed at a time when their rivals are much, much faster in a straight line.

There are a few suggestions that this could also hurt the Renault powered teams quite heavily in one key area - deciding on gearing ratios for 2014. Given that all of the teams will have fixed gear ratios in 2014, getting to grips with the driveability and power curve of the engines now will be vital for determining your gear ratios for the rest of the season. If what Kamui says is true, then it implies that the power delivery of the Renault engines is not what the teams were expecting - which could make it difficult if they have made their gearing choices based on one usable power band but are given an engine with a quite different usable power band to what they expected.

In other words, Renault teams may still have a horrible season even if the issues are fixed thanks to gear ratios everywhere but Monaco and other somewhat slow circuits?

go_Rubens wrote:

mario wrote:Moving onto a less acrimonious topic, the reports coming from the tests do seem to confirm that the energy recovery systems are the main limiting factor in terms of power output and delivery - the comments Kamui has made indicate that the electrical power input is occurring in an unpredictable manner at low speed due to the electrical power kicking in too quickly.
One of the suggested primary causes of Renault's problems is because the electrical motor is being damaged because there is an issue with balancing the power demand from the engine and electrical systems at the same time, an issue that would be even more severe with the power turned up (which is why there were rumours that Caterham had basically disconnected the ERS-K system in Jerez to prevent the chronic mechanical issues). With that in mind, it is probably the case that the teams can't turn the engines up even if they wanted to - the problems are precisely because they are trying to increase the total power output.

As an aside, it is worth noting that, if some of the figures coming from Bahrain are true, than Kamui wasn't exaggerating at all about the straight line speed deficit. There are reports that Alonso topped the speed traps with a top speed of 336kph, Magnussen on 330kph and Massa on 327kph - with the reports of an increase in peak power and the reduction in drag due to the removal of the beam wing, it would appear that the predictions of Rob White (of Renault Sport) that top speeds would increase by around 15-20kph around most circuits are about right (last year, the cars were hitting about 310-315kph in qualifying trim in Bahrain).
However, Vergne was clocking 308kph and both Kobayashi and Vettel were just clocking 301kph - in other words, Caterham, Toro Rosso and Red Bull have all lost 2-3kph in straight line speed at a time when their rivals are much, much faster in a straight line.

There are a few suggestions that this could also hurt the Renault powered teams quite heavily in one key area - deciding on gearing ratios for 2014. Given that all of the teams will have fixed gear ratios in 2014, getting to grips with the driveability and power curve of the engines now will be vital for determining your gear ratios for the rest of the season. If what Kamui says is true, then it implies that the power delivery of the Renault engines is not what the teams were expecting - which could make it difficult if they have made their gearing choices based on one usable power band but are given an engine with a quite different usable power band to what they expected.

In other words, Renault teams may still have a horrible season even if the issues are fixed thanks to gear ratios everywhere but Monaco and other somewhat slow circuits?

Thank you go_Rubens. I often doubt my own ability to read, which can make extracting details from texts a little confusing. Thanks to your short summary, I have really benefited from mario's wisdom.

I forgot about the fixed ratios this year. Whoo boy. Renault needs a miracle, but there is one test left. Hope springs eternal as they say, but man that's rough.

go_Rubens wrote:

mario wrote:Moving onto a less acrimonious topic, the reports coming from the tests do seem to confirm that the energy recovery systems are the main limiting factor in terms of power output and delivery - the comments Kamui has made indicate that the electrical power input is occurring in an unpredictable manner at low speed due to the electrical power kicking in too quickly.
One of the suggested primary causes of Renault's problems is because the electrical motor is being damaged because there is an issue with balancing the power demand from the engine and electrical systems at the same time, an issue that would be even more severe with the power turned up (which is why there were rumours that Caterham had basically disconnected the ERS-K system in Jerez to prevent the chronic mechanical issues). With that in mind, it is probably the case that the teams can't turn the engines up even if they wanted to - the problems are precisely because they are trying to increase the total power output.

As an aside, it is worth noting that, if some of the figures coming from Bahrain are true, than Kamui wasn't exaggerating at all about the straight line speed deficit. There are reports that Alonso topped the speed traps with a top speed of 336kph, Magnussen on 330kph and Massa on 327kph - with the reports of an increase in peak power and the reduction in drag due to the removal of the beam wing, it would appear that the predictions of Rob White (of Renault Sport) that top speeds would increase by around 15-20kph around most circuits are about right (last year, the cars were hitting about 310-315kph in qualifying trim in Bahrain).
However, Vergne was clocking 308kph and both Kobayashi and Vettel were just clocking 301kph - in other words, Caterham, Toro Rosso and Red Bull have all lost 2-3kph in straight line speed at a time when their rivals are much, much faster in a straight line.

There are a few suggestions that this could also hurt the Renault powered teams quite heavily in one key area - deciding on gearing ratios for 2014. Given that all of the teams will have fixed gear ratios in 2014, getting to grips with the driveability and power curve of the engines now will be vital for determining your gear ratios for the rest of the season. If what Kamui says is true, then it implies that the power delivery of the Renault engines is not what the teams were expecting - which could make it difficult if they have made their gearing choices based on one usable power band but are given an engine with a quite different usable power band to what they expected.

In other words, Renault teams may still have a horrible season even if the issues are fixed thanks to gear ratios everywhere but Monaco and other somewhat slow circuits?

If the Renault powered teams have made no significant progress on closing the top speed gap by the start of the season, would it be prudent for one or more of these teams to effectively write off any prospect of competitiveness at the high speed tracks and select gear ratios that maximise their chances at street circuits? Could 2014 be a repeat of 1983 with this years Renault cars playing the part of 1983's Cosworth DFV cars?

Or have I read too much into Mario's observations?

Felipe Nasr (my favourite junior driver) has been announced as a Williams test-driver. Nasr for the Williams seat in 2016!

Wallio wrote:I forgot about the fixed ratios this year. Whoo boy. Renault needs a miracle, but there is one test left. Hope springs eternal as they say, but man that's rough.

They will certainly need to be planning an extensive program of reliability updates throughout the season, hope that the FIA are relatively lenient in letting them make modifications during the season (since it is very unlikely that Renault can make all of the necessary changes in time for homologation on the 28th Feb) and that the larger Renault powered teams (i.e. Red Bull and Lotus) are able to sort out their own reliability issues that are depriving them of valuable on track mileage too (such as the gearbox failure that Ricciardo had yesterday).
After all, to a certain extent some of these issues have been caused by the teams themselves - Red Bull are perhaps unwilling to admit it, but Renault have hinted that some of the issues with the energy recovery systems are because of the demands that Red Bull have placed upon them - and some are in house (Symonds has stated that he thinks part of the reason for the problems are budget and personnel cuts at Renault Sport, with Renault having cut back investment in their F1 program and now paying the price for underestimating the challenges with the new powertrain packages).

More_Blue_Flags wrote:

go_Rubens wrote:In other words, Renault teams may still have a horrible season even if the issues are fixed thanks to gear ratios everywhere but Monaco and other somewhat slow circuits?

If the Renault powered teams have made no significant progress on closing the top speed gap by the start of the season, would it be prudent for one or more of these teams to effectively write off any prospect of competitiveness at the high speed tracks and select gear ratios that maximise their chances at street circuits? Could 2014 be a repeat of 1983 with this years Renault cars playing the part of 1983's Cosworth DFV cars?

Or have I read too much into Mario's observations?

I was thinking more along the lines of it being the case that the teams would probably have converged on one particular set of gear ratios based on having a certain power band in mind (say, 10,000-12,000rpm), only to discover that either the peak power band is either in a different part of the rev range or the usable power band itself is not as wide as expected.
Not only that, there would appear to be the issue of an uneven power output from the engine - it's almost as if there is a spike at low rpm's when the electric motor is mostly operational, then a dip as the internal combustion engine takes over and then an increase back up to peak engine power. That irregular power output is going to complicate things if you're trying to optimise your gearing around the peak power range but end up with problems elsewhere.

With that in mind, the bigger problem is that, simply put, the teams wouldn't be able to properly optimise their gearing ratios for any track if they are not able to properly judge what the power output of the whole powertrain will be at any one time. Admittedly it is not a total disaster since, having checked the regulations, the FIA allows all teams the opportunity to select a new set of gear ratios once during the 2014 season only - still, it is not exactly ideal.

mario wrote:I was thinking more along the lines of it being the case that the teams would probably have converged on one particular set of gear ratios based on having a certain power band in mind (say, 10,000-12,000rpm), only to discover that either the peak power band is either in a different part of the rev range or the usable power band itself is not as wide as expected.
Not only that, there would appear to be the issue of an uneven power output from the engine - it's almost as if there is a spike at low rpm's when the electric motor is mostly operational, then a dip as the internal combustion engine takes over and then an increase back up to peak engine power. That irregular power output is going to complicate things if you're trying to optimise your gearing around the peak power range but end up with problems elsewhere.

With that in mind, the bigger problem is that, simply put, the teams wouldn't be able to properly optimise their gearing ratios for any track if they are not able to properly judge what the power output of the whole powertrain will be at any one time. Admittedly it is not a total disaster since, having checked the regulations, the FIA allows all teams the opportunity to select a new set of gear ratios once during the 2014 season only - still, it is not exactly ideal.

Ah, I should have read the first paragraph of your original post more closely. Irregular power outputs will make things interesting, won't they?

good_Ralf wrote:Felipe Nasr (my favourite junior driver) has been announced as a Williams test-driver. Nasr for the Williams seat in 2016!

Do you see Bottas moving on to bigger and better things - or Massa getting the boot from Williams?

More_Blue_Flags wrote:
Do you see Bottas moving on to bigger and better things - or Massa getting the boot from Williams?

Massa could retire by 2016. Anyway Williams are a yo-yo team up and down at the moment.

Could someone clarify about the fixed gear ratios, that the same fixed gear ratio must be ran at all tracks and each teams gets to decide their own ratio? Should we expect to see almost all cars on their rev limits at the Monza straights then?

giraurd wrote:Could someone clarify about the fixed gear ratios, that the same fixed gear ratio must be ran at all tracks and each teams gets to decide their own ratio? Should we expect to see almost all cars on their rev limits at the Monza straights then?

It is precisely that - the teams have to select, in advance, the gear ratios for the gearbox and are then limited to using those same ratios for every single track, be it Monaco or Monza.

However, the indication is that most teams will probably choose an 8th gear ratio that is really only used for Monza (and, given the long periods spent on full throttle, perhaps Spa), with 7th being used as the final gear for most other tracks. With the relatively wide power band for the new powertrains compared to the old V8 engines (the power band on those engines was tiny - only really between 16,000-18,000rpm - whilst the new powertrains seem to have a usable power band that is two or three times wider), it would appear that the teams can rely on the more flexible power output of the engines to compensate for the restrictions on gearing.
Some drivers have already indicated that they don't really need to drop below third gear through most chicanes and even in some hairpins, such that first and second may only really be used at very slow tracks (Monaco and possibly Hungary). On top of that, there are a few who have wondered if some outfits might be able to fine tune the electrical power output at certain street venues (in the same way that the engine manufacturers could slightly adjust the power output curves of the V8 engines depending on track configuration).

rachel1990 wrote:

More_Blue_Flags wrote:
Do you see Bottas moving on to bigger and better things - or Massa getting the boot from Williams?

Massa could retire by 2016. Anyway Williams are a yo-yo team up and down at the moment.

That is quite plausible given Massa turns 33 this year - driving for Williams is probably a nice way for him to wrap up his career, and retiring from F1 in 2016 would still mean that he'd be fit and competitive enough if, like Webber or Fisichella, he fancies a change of direction and moved into sportscar racing instead.

As an aside, it does look as if a few small reliability issues are creeping in for Mercedes and Ferrari at the moment - there are some reports that Ferrari have been suffering from a few issues with their engine misfiring (with a few at Ferrari being rather startled by the backfire from Kimi's engine when he left his garage on his latest run), whilst Mercedes have had their second stoppage on track today (although supposedly the earlier stoppage was because Rosberg tried to simulate a race start that caused the engine to stall). Still, compared to most of the Renault engined teams it would appear that their problems have been more straighforward to resolve.

I don't think I have seen a team have such a testing nightmare that Red Bull have had since Mclarens 2004 Mp4-19.
And we all know how that turned out...