What If?

dr-baker · Post by **dr-baker** » 05 Jul 2013, 10:47

ibsey wrote:Also according to EJ’s book, Jordan was close to tieing up a deal to run Mercedes engines for (IIRC) 2004. And badging them as ‘Smart’ engines. To promote the newly released ‘Smart’ cars, which I believe are owed by Mercedes. Can’t remember now why it didn’t happen though. Knowing what I know about him, EJ probably felt Mercedes were asking for too much money.

I believe that SMART was a collaboration between Mercedes and Swatch watches... Confirmation.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 05 Jul 2013, 11:26

darkapprentice77 wrote:What If Jason Plato got into NASCAR in 2003?

He'd have a bloody awful accent by now.

Onxy Wrecked · Post by **Onxy Wrecked** » 05 Jul 2013, 19:13

darkapprentice77 wrote:What If Jason Plato got into NASCAR in 2003?

See JPM or Marcos Ambrose for results.

Alextrax52 · Post by **Alextrax52** » 05 Jul 2013, 19:15

Onxy Wrecked wrote:
darkapprentice77 wrote:What If Jason Plato got into NASCAR in 2003?

See JPM or Marcos Ambrose for results.

Plato would probably be a bigger prat than he is now :lol:

Jocke1 · Post by **Jocke1** » 05 Jul 2013, 20:58

darkapprentice77 wrote:What If Jason Plato got into NASCAR in 2003?

Plato would be great at Plate races.

Onxy Wrecked · Post by **Onxy Wrecked** » 05 Jul 2013, 22:50

Jocke1 wrote:
darkapprentice77 wrote:What If Jason Plato got into NASCAR in 2003?

Plato would be great at Plate races.

Of course, anyone who isn't Kasey Kahne is good at them and that might just be Kyle Busch nailing Kahne into yet another spin and crash.

Gerudo Dragon · Post by **Gerudo Dragon** » 06 Jul 2013, 18:13

What If AJ Foyt Enterprises stuck to CART rather than IRL?

The Dutch Bear · Post by **The Dutch Bear** » 06 Jul 2013, 18:44

darkapprentice77 wrote:What If AJ Foyt Enterprises stuck to CART rather than IRL?

The IRL probably wouldn't have existed if AJ Foyt Enterprises stayed in CART. AJ Foyt had a major influence on Tony George and it is unlikely the IRL would have been started without AJ's blessing and participation. The IRL was arguably as much AJ Foyt's idea as it was Tony George's.

DOSBoot · Post by **DOSBoot** » 07 Jul 2013, 00:43

What if Lake Speed had stuck to an open wheel career, rather than a NASCAR career?

FantometteBR · Post by **FantometteBR** » 07 Jul 2013, 02:38

DOSBoot wrote:What if Lake Speed had stuck to an open wheel career, rather than a NASCAR career?

Perhaps trying somethign overseas but finding his niche at CART/IRL/whatsoever

Gerudo Dragon · Post by **Gerudo Dragon** » 07 Jul 2013, 23:53

What if the FIA didn't kill off the WTCC after 1987?

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 08 Jul 2013, 06:50

darkapprentice77 wrote:What if the FIA didn't kill off the WTCC after 1987?

A certain van de Poele could have been WTCC champion, seeing he won the DTM that year.

Onxy Wrecked · Post by **Onxy Wrecked** » 08 Jul 2013, 14:49

DOSBoot wrote:What if Lake Speed had stuck to an open wheel career, rather than a NASCAR career?

I would say he had a great chance at winning multiple races in IndyCar or even being better than Eddie Cheever in a short F1 career (short given his age as he was 32 in 1980) thus maybe a couple wins given his talent and age being considered. If he stuck to IndyCar/CART he would have probably been a contender for wins but not a champion given the equipment and talent of Rick Mears. It would be a fair bit better than his NASCAR career, I presume.

Post by **Londoner** » 08 Jul 2013, 15:14

What if Michael Waltrip somehow made it to F1 in the late 1980s/early 1990s?

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 08 Jul 2013, 15:18

East Londoner wrote:What if Michael Waltrip somehow made it to F1 in the late 1980s/early 1990s?

Bad things. Very bad things.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 09 Jul 2013, 08:52

What if TVR had gone ahead with the Speed 12 project during the late 90s?

Faustus · Post by **Faustus** » 09 Jul 2013, 12:21

Wizzie wrote:What if TVR had gone ahead with the Speed 12 project during the late 90s?

I take it you mean as a road car? Because the racing car ran for 2 seasons and it was awesome.

roblo97 · Post by **roblo97** » 09 Jul 2013, 16:11

Faustus wrote:
Wizzie wrote:What if TVR had gone ahead with the Speed 12 project during the late 90s?

I take it you mean as a road car? Because the racing car ran for 2 seasons and it was awesome.

It was mental as a road car because I read a story that the late boss of the marque Peter Wheeler drove the car home from the factory and as soon as he brought the car home, he told his wife the car was too fast for the road so they only made 2, one prototype and another car they built in 2003 using the bodywork from the GT race car

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 09 Jul 2013, 16:23

roblomas52 wrote:
Faustus wrote:
Wizzie wrote:What if TVR had gone ahead with the Speed 12 project during the late 90s?

I take it you mean as a road car? Because the racing car ran for 2 seasons and it was awesome.

It was mental as a road car because I read a story that the late boss of the marque Peter Wheeler drove the car home from the factory and as soon as he brought the car home, he told his wife the car was too fast for the road so they only made 2, one prototype and another car they built in 2003 using the bodywork from the GT race car

It had about 800 horsepower and allegedly could reach a top speed of 240mph. But, as Jeremy Clarkson found out...

roblo97 · Post by **roblo97** » 09 Jul 2013, 16:38

good_Ralf wrote:
It had about 800 horsepower and allegedly could reach a top speed of 240mph. But, as Jeremy Clarkson found out...

No one knows the exact output because the engine broke the dyno in the tvr factory but each cerbrera six cylinder engine put out up to 480 horsepower so I think the engine made 960 horsepower. The most powerful naturally aspirated production car on sale today is the Aston Martin One-77 which produces 750 horsepower

Post by **mario** » 09 Jul 2013, 17:56

Wizzie wrote:What if TVR had gone ahead with the Speed 12 project during the late 90s?

To be honest, I half suspect that it is the sort of car that is probably better off as one of those legends, where, like the BMW M12 turbo engine, it can develop a certain mythos that gives it far greater cachet than it deserves.

The claim of 960bhp, for example, is effectively based on single cylinder tests and then scaled up to the overall engine, which is perhaps a little on the high side (there have been a number of designs that were effectively combined engines - from older designs like the DFV to modern VW W engines - where the power output of the combined engine system is not always equal to twice that of each individual engine). Even if it did deliver the claimed 960bhp, I cannot see how they'd be able to take advantage of it.

roblo97 · Post by **roblo97** » 09 Jul 2013, 18:21

mario wrote:
Wizzie wrote:What if TVR had gone ahead with the Speed 12 project during the late 90s?

To be honest, I half suspect that it is the sort of car that is probably better off as one of those legends, where, like the BMW M12 turbo engine, it can develop a certain mythos that gives it far greater cachet than it deserves.

The claim of 960bhp, for example, is effectively based on single cylinder tests and then scaled up to the overall engine, which is perhaps a little on the high side (there have been a number of designs that were effectively combined engines - from older designs like the DFV to modern VW W engines - where the power output of the combined engine system is not always equal to twice that of each individual engine). Even if it did deliver the claimed 960bhp, I cannot see how they'd be able to take advantage of it.

The 960 horsepower was a bit if a guess by the TVR engineers IIRC

Onxy Wrecked · Post by **Onxy Wrecked** » 09 Jul 2013, 21:08

mario wrote:
Wizzie wrote:What if TVR had gone ahead with the Speed 12 project during the late 90s?

To be honest, I half suspect that it is the sort of car that is probably better off as one of those legends, where, like the BMW M12 turbo engine, it can develop a certain mythos that gives it far greater cachet than it deserves.

The claim of 960bhp, for example, is effectively based on single cylinder tests and then scaled up to the overall engine, which is perhaps a little on the high side (there have been a number of designs that were effectively combined engines - from older designs like the DFV to modern VW W engines - where the power output of the combined engine system is not always equal to twice that of each individual engine). Even if it did deliver the claimed 960bhp, I cannot see how they'd be able to take advantage of it.

It must be the cooling issues that reduce power as two engines in one space produces more heat. Engines which run hot aren't as powerful.

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 09 Jul 2013, 21:11

Onxy Wrecked wrote:
mario wrote:
Wizzie wrote:What if TVR had gone ahead with the Speed 12 project during the late 90s?

To be honest, I half suspect that it is the sort of car that is probably better off as one of those legends, where, like the BMW M12 turbo engine, it can develop a certain mythos that gives it far greater cachet than it deserves.

The claim of 960bhp, for example, is effectively based on single cylinder tests and then scaled up to the overall engine, which is perhaps a little on the high side (there have been a number of designs that were effectively combined engines - from older designs like the DFV to modern VW W engines - where the power output of the combined engine system is not always equal to twice that of each individual engine). Even if it did deliver the claimed 960bhp, I cannot see how they'd be able to take advantage of it.

It must be the cooling issues that reduce power as two engines in one space produces more heat. Engines which run hot aren't as powerful.

Bugatti solved that problem with their radiator system in the legendary Veyron. However, ten were required to cool the engine and the engine was virtually exposed to the outside world. TVR probably would have needed to do the same thing.

TomWazzleshaw · Post by **TomWazzleshaw** » 10 Jul 2013, 08:38

It seems that the question has spawned a rather interesting discussion.

Anyway, here's another one for you: What if the rumour mill was true and Anthony Davison did end up replacing Jacques Villeneuve at Sauber partway during the 2005 season?

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 10 Jul 2013, 09:05

Wizzie wrote:It seems that the question has spawned a rather interesting discussion.

Anyway, here's another one for you: What if the rumour mill was true and Anthony Davison did end up replacing Jacques Villeneuve at Sauber partway during the 2005 season?

- Matching Massa after a few races
- BMW keeps him next to Heidfeld for 06
- BMW finishes with more than only point ahead of Toyota, becoming clear 5th
- Heidfeld and Kubica participates in a shoot-out for the seat next to Davidson, Heidfeld loses
- Kubica debuts in 07 instead of 06
- Heidfeld goes to Super Aguri to stay in the sport
- In 08, Kubica and Davidson are evenly matched after a 07 season, where Davidson has had the upper hand
- They together manage to force Mario Theissen by their results to keep improving the F1.08...
- ...and it actually wins the constructors title!
However...
- They fall short of the drivers' title
- The F1.09 still ends up a bad car
- BMW still quits
- ...and Heidfeld ends up at Mercedes anyway, not driving in 09 anywhere

Klon · Post by **Klon** » 10 Jul 2013, 09:31

Shizuka wrote:- BMW finishes with more than only point ahead of Toyota, becoming clear 5th
- Heidfeld and Kubica participates in a shoot-out for the seat next to Davidson, Heidfeld loses

Wouldn't Davidson have to be in the shoot-out? I mean aside from the fact that Heidfeld is German and would therefore always be preferred by BMW it is obvious that Heidfeld would have taken Davidson to school as he did with Villeneuve.

Shizuka · Post by **Shizuka** » 10 Jul 2013, 09:45

I think his 05-06 performances would make him race in 2007 anyway, but you might be right there.
We never got to see how good he was, so I just went with an assumption seeing how he drove the SA07.

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 10 Jul 2013, 10:44

Wizzie wrote:It seems that the question has spawned a rather interesting discussion.

Anyway, here's another one for you: What if the rumour mill was true and Anthony Davison did end up replacing Jacques Villeneuve at Sauber partway during the 2005 season?

Given how he was inconsistent at Super Aguri, Davidson might have scored only a few points, so I can't have seen him do much better than Villeneuve although he probably would have been quicker and also been a match for Massa even. I think Davidson would either have stayed at BMW for 2006 alongside Heidfeld and scored more points and probably a podium, or he would have been dropped at the end of 2005 and would then return to BAR/Honda.

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 11 Jul 2013, 23:16

What if Peugeot had won a race with McLaren in 1994, or with Jordan in 1997?

roblo97 · Post by **roblo97** » 12 Jul 2013, 06:17

good_Ralf wrote:What if Peugeot had won a race with McLaren in 1994, or with Jordan in 1997?

Many things

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 12 Jul 2013, 12:03

roblomas52 wrote:
good_Ralf wrote:What if Peugeot had won a race with McLaren in 1994, or with Jordan in 1997?

Many things

You're not funny. Just so you know.

If Peugeot had won with McLaren, I'm not sure how it would've turned out. Maybe McLaren would've stuck with them, but I doubt they'dve been as well off as under Mercedes power. If so, Mercedes may have gone where Peugeot did in 1995 and supplied Jordan. That may have been enough to kickstart Jordan's rise through the grid - Damon Hill was looking in to joining Jordan for 1997 anyway, Mercedes engines would've probably sealed the deal in that regard, so I suspect they would've won their first race that year. Newey might've joined the team over McLaren in light of that, which would probably have seen Jordan take McLaren's place from 1998-onwards, though I suspect 1998 would've been a real challenge for them to win. Frentzen would've most likely won 1999 though, and possibly 2000 as well.

McLaren-Peugeot would've been less successful than McLaren-Mercedes through the mid-90s, but better than Jordan-Peugeot. The win may have caused more funds from Peugeot, but I don't think the upturn in performance would've been enough to supply McLaren. They probably would've jumped on the opportunity to have Mugen-Honda engines, and that in turn may have made Honda eventually more likely to support the team over BAR - after all, I would imagine the bosses would have a harder time justifying taking over BAR when it's McLaren - a far more established and historically successful team than Jordan ever was - they're selling up the river. Assuming McLaren still got Newey, it could've been an interesting 3/4 way scrap with Ferrari and Williams-BMW through the early 2000s. However, the Honda's of the era just weren't as solid as their competitors. I doubt McLaren would've won any titles.

If McLaren went with Mercedes anyway, well, all that would've changed is that Jordan's performances with Peugeot engines would've been a bit better, but not much.

Now, if Jordan had won a race with Peugeot in 1997, again, it all depends on whether or not they still stick with them. If they do, that leaves Prost still with the Mugen-Honda's. Now, given that the 1998 Prost was an utter shitebox, Mugen-Honda would've probably jumped ship entirely after that season, possibly to Williams or Benetton, or even out of F1 altogether. Going to Williams would eventually lead to them getting full Honda support. BMW would've probably looked into supplying Benetton or Jordan, most likely Benetton. Benetton-BMW would've meant we see Fisichella at his prime in a top car, and eventually the team becoming a BMW factory team, with Renault supplying and later buying out Jordan, but with less results than if they had bought out Benetton. Jordan-BMW would be like Benetton-BMW, except with probably Jarno Trulli being the team's focus, and with less results than either Williams or Benetton would've gotten.

If Jordan switched to Mugen-Honda anyway, that may have increased Peugeot's funding, they probably would've still supplied Prost. For all the good that does either of them.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 12 Jul 2013, 15:24

Salamander wrote:
roblomas52 wrote:
good_Ralf wrote:What if Peugeot had won a race with McLaren in 1994, or with Jordan in 1997?

Many things

You're not funny. Just so you know.

Gerudo Dragon · Post by **Gerudo Dragon** » 12 Jul 2013, 19:43

What if Damon Hill entered the Indy 500 in 2000 in an attempt to repeat his dad's victory?

good_Ralf · Post by **good_Ralf** » 12 Jul 2013, 19:50

darkapprentice77 wrote:What if Damon Hill entered the Indy 500 in 2000 in an attempt to repeat his dad's victory?

Why would he bother in the first place? Anyway, given how bad the end of his F1 career was and how he might not acclimatise to the oval that well at all, I think bad luck would strike again and he would be anonymous, nowhere near the front. In the end, the only thing that would he pick up would be a ROTR award. Then again, he could dominate, but I think that would be unlikely.

CoopsII · Post by **CoopsII** » 13 Jul 2013, 07:33

darkapprentice77 wrote:What if Damon Hill entered the Indy 500 in 2000 in an attempt to repeat his dad's victory?

By then the spark had gone but in the mid-nineties I think his driving style would've suited ovals tbh.

dinizintheoven · Post by **dinizintheoven** » 13 Jul 2013, 11:02

Salamander wrote:
roblomas52 wrote:
good_Ralf wrote:What if Peugeot had won a race with McLaren in 1994, or with Jordan in 1997?

Many things

You're not funny. Just so you know.

Am I so old that I now need the mind of the teenager explicitly explaining?

I can't even see how or where there was supposed to be a joke that Salamander identified as trying to exist but falling flat...

UncreativeUsername37 · Post by **UncreativeUsername37** » 13 Jul 2013, 14:50

dinizintheoven wrote:
Salamander wrote:
roblomas52 wrote:Many things

You're not funny. Just so you know.

Am I so old that I now need the mind of the teenager explicitly explaining?

I can't even see how or where there was supposed to be a joke that Salamander identified as trying to exist but falling flat...

1. I think "Many things

", especially considering the

, was supposed to be funny.
2. He was probably annoyed that roblomas just said "many things" without explaining at all what those things were.
3. Also, he, like a few of us are from time to time, was slightly annoyed at roblomas in general, and had to release his anger somehow.
4. Like CoopsII said, he was still ultimately taking the Internet too seriously.

Salamander · Post by **Salamander** » 13 Jul 2013, 15:51

dinizintheoven wrote:
Salamander wrote:
good_Ralf wrote:What if Peugeot had won a race with McLaren in 1994, or with Jordan in 1997?
roblomas52 wrote:Many things

You're not funny. Just so you know.

Am I so old that I now need the mind of the teenager explicitly explaining?

I can't even see how or where there was supposed to be a joke that Salamander identified as trying to exist but falling flat...

Well, it was either that or he was just flat out increasing his post count...

Onxy Wrecked · Post by **Onxy Wrecked** » 13 Jul 2013, 16:14

Salamander wrote:Well, it was either that or he was just flat out increasing his post count...

On any forum where one sees a post count, that is a viable possibility that a person posts just to produce a post.