Grand Prix Rejects

FullMetalJack wrote:

Dark77 wrote:Why are most racing driver's sons either crap or just not as good as their fathers?

Nico Rosberg being an exception. I'm not saying he's better than Keke, but he's really broke out this season.

Does Damon Hill count?
Or Jacques Villeneuve?

good_Ralf wrote:

FullMetalJack wrote:

Dark77 wrote:Why are most racing driver's sons either crap or just not as good as their fathers?

Nico Rosberg being an exception. I'm not saying he's better than Keke, but he's really broke out this season.

Does Damon Hill count?
Or Jacques Villeneuve?

Yeah, I just wanted to use a recent example.

kevinbotz wrote:

mario wrote:
Is he perhaps difficult to work with in the garage? Some of the messages that he has given to the team over the radio, according to the official transcripts, have been rather hostile or unhelpful, but he doesn't seem to have the same sort of reputation as di Resta has for being difficult. I wouldn't have thought that sponsorship would have been a deal breaker either - he has some backing and personal sponsorship shouldn't have been an issue with Ferrari at least. What else could there be?

From a piece I've read on Autosport, in spite of the purportedly hostile radio messages broadcast over the live coverage, Hulkenberg's engineers hold him in very high regard. According to those who've worked with him, he provides clear technical feedback, possesses a good work ethic, and has generally demonstrated an extraordinary amount of pace.

From what I heard on work experience he was generally well-liked by people back at the team's base (despite apparently showing some guys up whenever he decided to use the gym). At Williams this was probably due to him being in the factory more than Barichello- as he lived closer he was often popping in and out checking on the cars development and stuff.
And although he was only a test driver at Force India while I was there it was the same story. That and that he had better dress sense than Adrian Sutil.

re why are not racing drivers' sons better: one person in a million could be called a decent racing driver. So it takes some chance that a son of one of them becomes a great racing driver too....

There could be someone out there somewhere that could be a great racing driver but has never had any interest in racing....

WeirdKerr wrote:There could be someone out there somewhere that could be a great racing driver but has never had any interest in racing....

Or people interested but without the money to ever start in any league at all, or whose parents wouldn't get them a kart even if they did better their maths grade... goes for pretty much any skill with competitions, I guess.

I will be flying to Kraków on Monday, a sort of field trip with the colleagues at work.
The itinerary includes Kazimierz, Auschwitz, Birkenau and the salt mine in Wieliczka.
Any suggestions of things to not miss in the city?

Is there a statue or something of Kubica anywhere perhaps?

Jocke1 wrote:I will be flying to Kraków on Monday, a sort of field trip with the colleagues at work.
The itinerary includes Kazimierz, Auschwitz, Birkenau and the salt mine in Wieliczka.
Any suggestions of things to not miss in the city?

Is there a statue or something of Kubica anywhere perhaps?

I went to Poland in the autumn of 2011. I went into the centre of Krakov, but there was no statue of Kubica, who was born in the city. When you're in Krakov visit the Schindler museum too.

GoodRalf, what does this in your signature mean?

Check out the position of the sun on 2 August at 20:08 in my garden

watka wrote:GoodRalf, what does this in your signature mean?

Check out the position of the sun on 2 August at 20:08 in my garden

At that precise time and date, my father pointed out that the sun perfectly aligns through a hole in a hedge. I added that to my signature so I wouldn't forget. By the way, I decided to make myself my first avatar.

good_Ralf wrote:

watka wrote:GoodRalf, what does this in your signature mean?

Check out the position of the sun on 2 August at 20:08 in my garden

At that precise time and date, my father pointed out that the sun perfectly aligns through a hole in a hedge. I added that to my signature so I wouldn't forget. By the way, I decided to make myself my first avatar.

To be honest, I've been wondering about that myself since about 4th August...

good_Ralf wrote:

watka wrote:GoodRalf, what does this in your signature mean?

Check out the position of the sun on 2 August at 20:08 in my garden

At that precise time and date, my father pointed out that the sun perfectly aligns through a hole in a hedge. I added that to my signature so I wouldn't forget. By the way, I decided to make myself my first avatar.

I never knew signatures could be used as reminders

I mean, brilliant!

Can we possibly ban any discussion of Vettel?

I know it sounds drastic, but I think it would make the mood of the forum alot brighter.

Dark77 wrote:Can we possibly ban any discussion of Vettel?

I know it sounds drastic, but I think it would make the mood of the forum alot brighter.

It's down to the individual to ensure that discussion of certain drivers is reverent and respectful. I urge our members to read through their post before sending it. If it appears that the wording of it is rather inflammatory, then perhaps you might want to think about posting it. That's it, really.

Well, I feel I fanned the flames of that argument with one of my ROTR choices, and I feel bad for it.

But yeah, we do need to be more respectful with our posts on here.

With all this talk of Alonso leaving Ferrari, it does seem that he has failed in what he set out to achieve there.

I know it's hard to compare different eras, although I wonder if part of the problem is that he hasn't been able to make his mark at Ferrari in the way that Schumacher did - don't forget Ferrari were in a pretty bad way in the early 90's.

I respect his driving, but does anyone else think his failure to win a title with Ferrari reflects badly on him as well as the team?

LellaLombardi wrote:With all this talk of Alonso leaving Ferrari, it does seem that he has failed in what he set out to achieve there.

I know it's hard to compare different eras, although I wonder if part of the problem is that he hasn't been able to make his mark at Ferrari in the way that Schumacher did - don't forget Ferrari were in a pretty bad way in the early 90's.

I respect his driving, but does anyone else think his failure to win a title with Ferrari reflects badly on him as well as the team?

I wouldn't necessarily say that it does - it wasn't just Schumacher alone that transformed the team, but the reforms that were made to the team by the senior staff who went from Benetton to Ferrari at the same time. It wasn't an overnight transformation by the team either - it took a number of years before things finally fell into place.

If we consider how Alonso's career at Ferrari has developed since he joined the team, he went from being two race victories behind in the WDC to almost snatching the title in 2010, he did about as well as could be expected in 2011 given that RB7 in Vettel's hands was nigh on unbeatable, 2012 saw him once again come incredibly close in what was a relatively poor car by Ferrari in an effort that was widely praised throughout the paddock and, it could be argued, might have actually raised his stock rather than diminished it that year.

Furthermore, we have seen that the team itself has suffered from a number of technical issues that Alonso would have no real control over, such as the chronic problems with their wind tunnel over the past few years which has necessitated major refurbishment work and the fact that, having traditionally relied quite heavily on track testing for data acquisition, the team were, and still continue to some extent, to lag behind their rivals when it comes to simulator work and computational analysis. Overall, I think that Alonso's lack of titles at Ferrari hasn't hurt his reputation that badly - if anything, the perception that he has flattered the team and his car, therefore casting him in something of an underdog role, might have even enhanced his reputation slightly.

I would add that a large part of Schumacher's transformation of Ferrari came through his testing work, which is something Alonso can't do nowadays.

Anyone have any idea what happened to the vanity panel that was used on the Caterham earlier this year, looking back at the Japanese GP?

go_Rubens wrote:Anyone have any idea what happened to the vanity panel that was used on the Caterham earlier this year, looking back at the Japanese GP?

I would imagine it disappeared when Caterham gave up on 2013. Honestly I don't recall them ever having a vanity panel... O.o

watka wrote:I would add that a large part of Schumacher's transformation of Ferrari came through his testing work, which is something Alonso can't do nowadays.

That's a very good point, and why it is impossible really to fairly compare eras.

LellaLombardi wrote:

watka wrote:I would add that a large part of Schumacher's transformation of Ferrari came through his testing work, which is something Alonso can't do nowadays.

That's a very good point, and why it is impossible really to fairly compare eras.

It also makes Vettel's dominance (arguably) all the more impressive

watka wrote:I would add that a large part of Schumacher's transformation of Ferrari came through his testing work, which is something Alonso can't do nowadays.

IIRC in James Allen's book on M Schumi (circa 2006), there was a quote from someone like Eddie Irvine or Barrichello along the lines of 'during his time at Ferrari M Schumi didn't enjoy and didn't get as heavily involved in testing as many people perhaps think. The likes of Badoer & Gene undertook most of the hard work for M Schumi'.

It was a while since I last read that book so I can't be certain on the exact wording, but I am sure that the point they were trying to make was M Schumi was much more of a 'racer' than a 'test / development' driver. Certainly he didn't enjoy testing. Although it could just also be 'sour grapes' from whoever said it.

But perhaps this is another thing to ponder...reject F1 driver Luca Badoer & (almost reject driver...I think?) Marc Gene deserve more credit than they get for the part they played in Ferrari's success during those years. Perhaps this is also why Ferrari opted for Barrichello in 2000 as appose to say Fisco? Because of Barrichello's technical abilities?

p.s. sorry I haven't been posting lately here guys. Been mega busy with a new job & girlfriend.

With IRL making it's craziest decision to end the season in late August, F1 new regulations looks to kill the racing, now the lower class of racing looks much better than the top levels one, except for MotoGP and Superbikes, who still have a racing quality on their class

LellaLombardi wrote:With all this talk of Alonso leaving Ferrari, it does seem that he has failed in what he set out to achieve there.

I know it's hard to compare different eras, although I wonder if part of the problem is that he hasn't been able to make his mark at Ferrari in the way that Schumacher did - don't forget Ferrari were in a pretty bad way in the early 90's.

I respect his driving, but does anyone else think his failure to win a title with Ferrari reflects badly on him as well as the team?

Also, when you look at some of the drivers Schumacher was against, someone of his talent would have been able to win in a slightly inferior car. Alonso meanwhile has been up against the likes of Vettel (who is one of the best on a quick lap in the sports history) and several other comparable drivers in arguably better machinery.

takagi_for_the_win wrote:

LellaLombardi wrote:With all this talk of Alonso leaving Ferrari, it does seem that he has failed in what he set out to achieve there.

I know it's hard to compare different eras, although I wonder if part of the problem is that he hasn't been able to make his mark at Ferrari in the way that Schumacher did - don't forget Ferrari were in a pretty bad way in the early 90's.

I respect his driving, but does anyone else think his failure to win a title with Ferrari reflects badly on him as well as the team?

Also, when you look at some of the drivers Schumacher was against, someone of his talent would have been able to win in a slightly inferior car. Alonso meanwhile has been up against the likes of Vettel (who is one of the best on a quick lap in the sports history) and several other comparable drivers in arguably better machinery.

Case in point: 1996 and 1997. The 1996 Ferrari was not the 2nd best car on the grid, but Schumacher dragged it to 2nd, and came a lot closer to the 1997 title than that car had any right to be.

takagi_for_the_win wrote:

LellaLombardi wrote:With all this talk of Alonso leaving Ferrari, it does seem that he has failed in what he set out to achieve there.

I know it's hard to compare different eras, although I wonder if part of the problem is that he hasn't been able to make his mark at Ferrari in the way that Schumacher did - don't forget Ferrari were in a pretty bad way in the early 90's.

I respect his driving, but does anyone else think his failure to win a title with Ferrari reflects badly on him as well as the team?

Also, when you look at some of the drivers Schumacher was against, someone of his talent would have been able to win in a slightly inferior car. Alonso meanwhile has been up against the likes of Vettel (who is one of the best on a quick lap in the sports history) and several other comparable drivers in arguably better machinery.

Also another point to consider is from 2001 onwards M Schumi probably had Bridgestone tyres tailor made to suit his driving style. Whereas Alonso hasn't benefited from this luxury either.

Personally I have gained massive respect for Alonso since he joined Ferrari. The way he has had an unshakeable belief he would still win the WDC after say Silverstone 2010 when he was something like 47 points off the leader at the time. And I think it was a similar story last year when Vettel clearly had the better car. Yet despite this Alonso seemed so determined it would be him that would win the WDC.

Couldn't have been easy to keep THAT motivated when Ferrari kept on giving him difficult machinery most of the time.

Don't ever recall M Schumi giving it the same kind of fighting talk during interviews in his early Ferrari years. Quite the contrary M Schumi would usually say stuff like "well we are not expecting to win the WDC this year...next year will be our year!!!" Despite repeating that same line from 1996 to 1999 (just listen to Murray Walker commentaries around that time, and Murray usually mentions it somewhere).

Whilst it certainly was a clever tactic employed by M Schumi..of trying to put all the pressure on his WDC rival in those years. In my book it seems somewhat underhand, trying to employ such mind games. Therefore I can't help but lose respect for M Schumi for such things. Whereas Alonso fighting talk seems a much more honest and 'sportsman like' attitude. Therefore this is another reason why I have gained respect for Alonso during his Ferrari years. For keeping the fight above the belt so to speak.

However having said that Nando's recent comments, do seem to indicate that there is some frustration creeping in. Perhaps he knows these are his best years and due to circumstances beyond his control the results are not going his way. irrespective of whether he wins another WDC or not, personally I will gain yet more respect for Alonso should he stop the bit#hing about Kimi only being as quick as Massa. Instead stick with Ferrari, allow Kimi be an equal teammate (which I think is the case?) knuckle down and prove it out on the track.

Then 'Nando can claimed to have done something M Schumi never did. Win a WDC on equal terms with his teammate. Which in my book is a greater achievement than M Schumi's 7 WDC's combined.

So beating Fisichella in the same car is better than 7 world championships? Heikki Kovalainen must be a legend then!

AxelP800 wrote:With IRL making it's craziest decision to end the season in late August, F1 new regulations looks to kill the racing, now the lower class of racing looks much better than the top levels one, except for MotoGP and Superbikes, who still have a racing quality on their class

Although that's because NASCAR's top series stars are flooding the lower ranks on one-off or part-time rides against pay drivers and young drivers with more talent than experience.

watka wrote:So beating Fisichella in the same car is better than 7 world championships? Heikki Kovalainen must be a legend then!

No, he's saying that if Alonso wins a championship whilst Räikkönen is in the other Ferrari, then that is greater than Schumacher beating a Rubens Barrichello who was never going to be allowed to win and Jonny Herbert.

PT8475 wrote:

watka wrote:So beating Fisichella in the same car is better than 7 world championships? Heikki Kovalainen must be a legend then!

No, he's saying that if Alonso wins a championship whilst Räikkönen is in the other Ferrari, then that is greater than Schumacher beating a Rubens Barrichello who was never going to be allowed to win and Jonny Herbert.

Precisely!

I think Niki Lauda sums it up best here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSkfZvgFzvE

(skip to 9:00 minutes into this video)

watka wrote:So beating Fisichella in the same car is better than 7 world championships? Heikki Kovalainen must be a legend then!

Not sure about that really... Mind you, HK did beat Schumacher in the 2004 Race of Champions.

good_Ralf wrote:

watka wrote:So beating Fisichella in the same car is better than 7 world championships? Heikki Kovalainen must be a legend then!

Not sure about that really... Mind you, HK did beat Schumacher in the 2004 Race of Champions.

This is getting into "Did you know" territory....

If Alonso indeed drives for Ferrari in 2014 alongside Räikkönen, we have quartet of drivers who have been team-mates which each other:

Alonso
Fisichella
Massa
Räikkönen

Alonso-Fisichella, Renault 2005-06
Alonso-Massa, Ferrari 2010-13
Alonso-Räikkönen, Ferrari 2014
Fisichella-Massa, Sauber 2004
Fisichella-Räikkönen, Ferrari 2009
Massa-Räikkönen, Ferrari 2007-09

It's quite rare situation in the era where teams have just two drivers. Another similar quartet that comes to my mind is Michael Schumacher, Rubens Barrichello, Eddie Irvine and Johnny Herbert. But are there any others?

Bleu wrote:It's quite rare situation in the era where teams have just two drivers. Another similar quartet that comes to my mind is Michael Schumacher, Rubens Barrichello, Eddie Irvine and Johnny Herbert. But are there any others?

Prost, Hill, Senna and Mansell is almost there...

Prost, Hill, Williams 1993
Prost, Senna, McLaren 1987,88
Prost, Mansell Ferrari 1990

Hill, Senna Williams 1994
Hill, Mansell Williams 1994

Senna, Mansell - only combo not to exist.

ibsey wrote:

takagi_for_the_win wrote:

LellaLombardi wrote:With all this talk of Alonso leaving Ferrari, it does seem that he has failed in what he set out to achieve there.

I know it's hard to compare different eras, although I wonder if part of the problem is that he hasn't been able to make his mark at Ferrari in the way that Schumacher did - don't forget Ferrari were in a pretty bad way in the early 90's.

I respect his driving, but does anyone else think his failure to win a title with Ferrari reflects badly on him as well as the team?

Also, when you look at some of the drivers Schumacher was against, someone of his talent would have been able to win in a slightly inferior car. Alonso meanwhile has been up against the likes of Vettel (who is one of the best on a quick lap in the sports history) and several other comparable drivers in arguably better machinery.

Also another point to consider is from 2001 onwards M Schumi probably had Bridgestone tyres tailor made to suit his driving style. Whereas Alonso hasn't benefited from this luxury either.

Personally I have gained massive respect for Alonso since he joined Ferrari. The way he has had an unshakeable belief he would still win the WDC after say Silverstone 2010 when he was something like 47 points off the leader at the time. And I think it was a similar story last year when Vettel clearly had the better car. Yet despite this Alonso seemed so determined it would be him that would win the WDC.

Couldn't have been easy to keep THAT motivated when Ferrari kept on giving him difficult machinery most of the time.

Don't ever recall M Schumi giving it the same kind of fighting talk during interviews in his early Ferrari years. Quite the contrary M Schumi would usually say stuff like "well we are not expecting to win the WDC this year...next year will be our year!!!" Despite repeating that same line from 1996 to 1999 (just listen to Murray Walker commentaries around that time, and Murray usually mentions it somewhere).

Whilst it certainly was a clever tactic employed by M Schumi..of trying to put all the pressure on his WDC rival in those years. In my book it seems somewhat underhand, trying to employ such mind games. Therefore I can't help but lose respect for M Schumi for such things. Whereas Alonso fighting talk seems a much more honest and 'sportsman like' attitude. Therefore this is another reason why I have gained respect for Alonso during his Ferrari years. For keeping the fight above the belt so to speak.

However having said that Nando's recent comments, do seem to indicate that there is some frustration creeping in. Perhaps he knows these are his best years and due to circumstances beyond his control the results are not going his way. irrespective of whether he wins another WDC or not, personally I will gain yet more respect for Alonso should he stop the bit#hing about Kimi only being as quick as Massa. Instead stick with Ferrari, allow Kimi be an equal teammate (which I think is the case?) knuckle down and prove it out on the track.

Then 'Nando can claimed to have done something M Schumi never did. Win a WDC on equal terms with his teammate. Which in my book is a greater achievement than M Schumi's 7 WDC's combined.

Absolutely agreed. I used to dislike Alonso a few years ago, but some of his performances, particularly 2012, really made me admire what was nothing short of a herculean effort - and I think his popularity exploded exponentially after having seemed to have lost a championship to inferior machinery. It's interesting how the human aspect of such a technical sport always shines through, and I think in many ways that's contributed to such tensions on the podiums this year. It will also be dissapointing if Alonso handles having a competitive teammate poorly, and although he seems to have grown a lot since 2007, it's often much easier to appear mature, than actually become it.


Ok I've been pondering, could Hamilton have dragged this year's Mclaren to a podium had he not moved? Did he know something was awry with the 2013 Mclaren? Or did he simply move for personal/contract reasons, and luck into avoiding a poor car?

SgtPepper wrote:Absolutely agreed. I used to dislike Alonso a few years ago, but some of his performances, particularly 2012, really made me admire what was nothing short of a herculean effort - and I think his popularity exploded exponentially after having seemed to have lost a championship to inferior machinery. It's interesting how the human aspect of such a technical sport always shines through, and I think in many ways that's contributed to such tensions on the podiums this year. It will also be dissapointing if Alonso handles having a competitive teammate poorly, and although he seems to have grown a lot since 2007, it's often much easier to appear mature, than actually become it.


Ok I've been pondering, could Hamilton have dragged this year's Mclaren to a podium had he not moved? Did he know something was awry with the 2013 Mclaren? Or did he simply move for personal/contract reasons, and luck into avoiding a poor car?

I think that it will depend heavily on how competitive Ferrari are in 2014 - if they are still off the pace, then I think that the bigger problem for Ferrari would be that Alonso might become fed up with trying to haul the car onto the top step of the podium and walk out of the team because of that, rather than Kimi being the major issue. Given the suggestion in some quarters that Honda is lobbying Alonso and trying to lure him back to McLaren, that could be one situation that Ferrari are rather concerned about.
Should the car be competitive though and Ferrari can compete for the WDC on level terms with their rivals, that could create a situation where there is more tension between the drivers as there would be much more at stake.

As for Hamilton and McLaren, well, to be honest it is risky to speculate what he might be able to achieve in the same car as Button and Perez. It is probably reasonable to assume that he would qualify further up the field than either driver given his superior qualifying record against Button (who is, in turn currently beating Perez in qualifying), although it is hard to say whether he would have been able to translate that into a podium.

On the topic of why Hamilton jumped ship, the indication seems to be that it was more for personal reasons. It seems that the relationship between him and McLaren started to deteriorate in 2011, with the team becoming frustrated at his clumsy mistakes that year, whilst 2012 saw Hamilton's commitment to the team start to fade after repeated strategic mistakes and reliability costing him his chance for the title that year.

I suppose that he might have been able to anticipate there being some problems in 2013 though - it has been a matter of public knowledge that Mercedes were cutting their investment and support for the team, and Hamilton would probably have had some insight on what that would mean for the team.
There were some suggestions that McLaren were cutting his salary because they couldn't afford to pay his current salary and pay Mercedes for their engines (with a few whispers that he might have seen his salary fall below Button's salary), and of course there would have been the loss of technical support for 2013 and 2014 too. Hamilton did cite that loss of technical support and the fact that McLaren would have had to work around what Mercedes thought best for their car rather than for McLaren as one reason why he went to Mercedes, although that was with an eye on 2014 rather than 2013.

All in all, it looks more like Hamilton was gambling on Mercedes managing to turn things around in 2014, decided to use the 2013 season to become accustomed to Mercedes and perhaps influence the development program for 2014 in his direction and ended up, by fortune, avoiding the relatively poor car McLaren have turned out this year.

Why did Larrousse have to pre-qualify in 1992? When I checked on Wikipedia, they finished 11th in the constructors championship, and it's only the teams out of the top 13 that had to pre-qualify.

FullMetalJack wrote:Why did Larrousse have to pre-qualify in 1992? When I checked on Wikipedia, they finished 11th in the constructors championship, and it's only the teams out of the top 13 that had to pre-qualify.

With the change of ownership to Venturi, they were considered a new team. As a consequence of that they had to prequalify, their 1991 results didn't matter as they were set by a "different team".

The Dutch Bear wrote:

FullMetalJack wrote:Why did Larrousse have to pre-qualify in 1992? When I checked on Wikipedia, they finished 11th in the constructors championship, and it's only the teams out of the top 13 that had to pre-qualify.

With the change of ownership to Venturi, they were considered a new team. As a consequence of that they had to prequalify, their 1991 results didn't matter as they were set by a "different team".

I see. Were Footwork given the choice of which drivers would pre-qualify, or would Suzuki's result for Larrousse work in his favour moving Alboreto into pre-qualifying?