Grand Prix Rejects

mario wrote:

CoopsII wrote:Is it possible for a Champion to have his title rescinded? Coulthard made a comment about how, despite all the celebrating in India, Vettel wont actually be 'crowned' as champion until well after Brazil. Is it technically possible for Vettel, say, to break a tonne of rules at several races and have so many points deducted that in actual fact someone else inherits the title? Is that possible?

I only use Vettel as an example of a driver who's one with plenty of races yet to do, could be anyone.

I suppose that it is theoretically possible - the FIA technically awards the drivers title at the post season gala dinner for the drivers, so in principle it would be possible for a driver who has effectively won the title to void his entitlement to the title before then. That said, points penalties are very rare (there aren't any real provisions for that in the regulations) - I suppose that the slightly more likely scenario would be somebody driving for a team that was then disqualified for technical infringements before the end of the season, like Tyrrell in 1984, which could then create a scenario where a driver was stripped of his title before the official ceremony.

Thanks Mario. The closest I could think of was when MSC had his second place in the 1997 championship erased for his kamikaze attack on Villeneuve. To this day I dont know how he kept a straight face in interviews when he said how much that second place would've meant to him

mario wrote:

CoopsII wrote:Is it possible for a Champion to have his title rescinded? Coulthard made a comment about how, despite all the celebrating in India, Vettel wont actually be 'crowned' as champion until well after Brazil. Is it technically possible for Vettel, say, to break a tonne of rules at several races and have so many points deducted that in actual fact someone else inherits the title? Is that possible?

I only use Vettel as an example of a driver who's one with plenty of races yet to do, could be anyone.

I suppose that it is theoretically possible - the FIA technically awards the drivers title at the post season gala dinner for the drivers, so in principle it would be possible for a driver who has effectively won the title to void his entitlement to the title before then. That said, points penalties are very rare (there aren't any real provisions for that in the regulations) - I suppose that the slightly more likely scenario would be somebody driving for a team that was then disqualified for technical infringements before the end of the season, like Tyrrell in 1984, which could then create a scenario where a driver was stripped of his title before the official ceremony.

There is the famous precedent of Schumacher being stripped of his points in 1997, but that was for trying to influence the championship by crashing into his main rival...

Who's had the most disqualifications in F1 history?

without checking -- one of the Tyrrell 1984 drivers, most likely....?

giraurd wrote:without checking -- one of the Tyrrell 1984 drivers, most likely....?

Probably Martin Brundle because of his crash in Dallas that put him out earlier than Bellof

giraurd wrote:without checking -- one of the Tyrrell 1984 drivers, most likely....?

I think it's Bellof; Brundle has had 8 DQs in his career (7 for Tyrrell, and 1 for Zakspeed), but Bellof had 11 in the Tyrrell.

Is it just me or have we all made this thread into the bastard offspring of the 'What If?' and 'trivia question...' threads over on the EVDP forum?

Has their ever been an F1 driver named Kevin?

WeirdKerr wrote:Has their ever been an F1 driver named Kevin?

If you count testers, there was Kelvin Burt I believe... pretty sure he was the only one.

WeirdKerr wrote:Has their ever been an F1 driver named Kevin?

After using Ctrl+F on this, I can confirm the answer is no. 8)

Actually, there's never been a driver named Kevin who's started a race, there may be one who DNQ'd.

Salamander wrote:

WeirdKerr wrote:Has their ever been an F1 driver named Kevin?

If you count testers, there was Kelvin Burt I believe... pretty sure he was the only one.

Kevin Cogan off the top of my head

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:

Salamander wrote:

WeirdKerr wrote:Has their ever been an F1 driver named Kevin?

If you count testers, there was Kelvin Burt I believe... pretty sure he was the only one.

Kevin Cogan off the top of my head

Oh.

Dunno how I thought that had an 'l' in it...

Dark77 wrote:

WeirdKerr wrote:Has their ever been an F1 driver named Kevin?

After using Ctrl+F on this, I can confirm the answer is no. 8)

On that website you could have just typed in Kevin in the search function on the main page.

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:

Salamander wrote:

WeirdKerr wrote:Has their ever been an F1 driver named Kevin?

If you count testers, there was Kelvin Burt I believe... pretty sure he was the only one.

Kevin Cogan off the top of my head

I'm amazed that Coogin' doesn't have a profile on this site, honestly.

Cynon wrote:I'm amazed that Coogin' doesn't have a profile on this site, honestly.

Are you listening Enoch?

After Grosjean display in the race, Lotus should try to get sponsorship from the stetson manufacturer.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/111439

If they want more artificially induced racing, allow me:

a) Up to 10 ECU triggered DNF's per race (according with natural attrition rates) with the unlucky driver being randomly chosen. Drivers well placed in the championship table get higher odds of DNFing.

b) "Catch up" option. A driver who is up to 10 seconds in front of another will have its ERS-K deploy capabilities reduced depending on the distance. More than that and it completely switches off.

c) If any team finds some breakthrough in terms of car design, they either share the information with other teams or risk being excluded.

d) Engines might be manufactured by different manufacturers as long as the engines are equal to each other.


PS: I reckon some of these might be very exaggerated, but I honestly fail to see what they can find more in between...

DanielPT wrote:c) If any team finds some breakthrough in terms of car design, they either share the information with other teams or risk being excluded.

I read that as executed. That punishment is perhaps a tad too severe

DanielPT wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/111439

If they want more artificially induced racing, allow me:
a) Up to 10 ECU triggered DNF's per race (according with natural attrition rates) with the unlucky driver being randomly chosen. Drivers well placed in the championship table get higher odds of DNFing.
b) "Catch up" option. A driver who is up to 10 seconds in front of another will have its ERS-K deploy capabilities reduced depending on the distance. More than that and it completely switches off.
c) If any team finds some breakthrough in terms of car design, they either share the information with other teams or risk being excluded.
d) Engines might be manufactured by different manufacturers as long as the engines are equal to each other.

PS: I reckon some of these might be very exaggerated, but I honestly fail to see what they can find more in between...

Problem is that this is complex and artificial enough for me to worry something like this can actually happen

Don't forget the old "Sprinklers to wet the track" idea Bernie came up with!

lgaquino wrote:Don't forget the old "Sprinklers to wet the track" idea Bernie came up with!

That would be easily achievable should F1 ever move back to Paul Ricard...

Nuppiz wrote:

lgaquino wrote:Don't forget the old "Sprinklers to wet the track" idea Bernie came up with!

That would be easily achievable should F1 ever move back to Paul Ricard...

Or, IIRC, Yas Marina.

DanielPT wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/111439

If they want more artificially induced racing, allow me:

a) Up to 10 ECU triggered DNF's per race (according with natural attrition rates) with the unlucky driver being randomly chosen. Drivers well placed in the championship table get higher odds of DNFing.

b) "Catch up" option. A driver who is up to 10 seconds in front of another will have its ERS-K deploy capabilities reduced depending on the distance. More than that and it completely switches off.

c) If any team finds some breakthrough in terms of car design, they either share the information with other teams or risk being excluded.

d) Engines might be manufactured by different manufacturers as long as the engines are equal to each other.


PS: I reckon some of these might be very exaggerated, but I honestly fail to see what they can find more in between...

Some might argue that the increasingly tight regulations means that point d) is not that far away from effectively becoming true - we're already in a situation where the difference in characteristics between the V8 engines is fairly limited, and the regulations for the turbo engines are arguably even tighter than that.

mario wrote:

DanielPT wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/111439

If they want more artificially induced racing, allow me:

a) Up to 10 ECU triggered DNF's per race (according with natural attrition rates) with the unlucky driver being randomly chosen. Drivers well placed in the championship table get higher odds of DNFing.

b) "Catch up" option. A driver who is up to 10 seconds in front of another will have its ERS-K deploy capabilities reduced depending on the distance. More than that and it completely switches off.

c) If any team finds some breakthrough in terms of car design, they either share the information with other teams or risk being excluded.

d) Engines might be manufactured by different manufacturers as long as the engines are equal to each other.


PS: I reckon some of these might be very exaggerated, but I honestly fail to see what they can find more in between...

Some might argue that the increasingly tight regulations means that point d) is not that far away from effectively becoming true - we're already in a situation where the difference in characteristics between the V8 engines is fairly limited, and the regulations for the turbo engines are arguably even tighter than that.

I think that this here may actually reduce the element of racing on track even further, as either A) teams with particular engines that have a design flaw will suffer, and there is the potential for nothing significant to be done about the flaw to make a team more competitive, speaking of Ferrari's rumored weak engine and B) for the cars to be so close together in terms of performance that not much can be done anyway, especially on a track like Suzuka, to be able to overtake, except for ERS. Either way, it doesn't sound good, unless you like stand-out rejects in the case of A, which most of us probably do like, but then again, we can't see much of it happen if some of the TV directors stay the way they are and don't show the back teams or bad midfield teams.

go_Rubens wrote:

mario wrote:

DanielPT wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/111439

If they want more artificially induced racing, allow me:

a) Up to 10 ECU triggered DNF's per race (according with natural attrition rates) with the unlucky driver being randomly chosen. Drivers well placed in the championship table get higher odds of DNFing.

b) "Catch up" option. A driver who is up to 10 seconds in front of another will have its ERS-K deploy capabilities reduced depending on the distance. More than that and it completely switches off.

c) If any team finds some breakthrough in terms of car design, they either share the information with other teams or risk being excluded.

d) Engines might be manufactured by different manufacturers as long as the engines are equal to each other.


PS: I reckon some of these might be very exaggerated, but I honestly fail to see what they can find more in between...

Some might argue that the increasingly tight regulations means that point d) is not that far away from effectively becoming true - we're already in a situation where the difference in characteristics between the V8 engines is fairly limited, and the regulations for the turbo engines are arguably even tighter than that.

I think that this here may actually reduce the element of racing on track even further, as either A) teams with particular engines that have a design flaw will suffer, and there is the potential for nothing significant to be done about the flaw to make a team more competitive, speaking of Ferrari's rumored weak engine and B) for the cars to be so close together in terms of performance that not much can be done anyway, especially on a track like Suzuka, to be able to overtake, except for ERS. Either way, it doesn't sound good, unless you like stand-out rejects in the case of A, which most of us probably do like, but then again, we can't see much of it happen if some of the TV directors stay the way they are and don't show the back teams or bad midfield teams.

Well, there might be some variability to begin with since some development work is going to be allowed, but the rather aggressive tapering off of development work (with a new engine freeze reportedly kicking in within the next two to three years) means that fairly soon we will see any flaws locked into the engine design once again.

mario wrote:Well, there might be some variability to begin with since some development work is going to be allowed, but the rather aggressive tapering off of development work (with a new engine freeze reportedly kicking in within the next two to three years) means that fairly soon we will see any flaws locked into the engine design once again.

Well, I will say this. If they want extremely restrictive engine regs, so be it. I like F1 to see innovative design work on the cars so teams gain an advantage on one another. That's what "Formula 1" is about, to see who makes the best solution to the formula. If the regulations are restrictive, especially on the plains they are on now and could be in a few years, it may A) decrease the level of activity on track to the point you can't see good racing where one engine may help and hinder the car and B) take away the whole meaning of trying to get the best solution to the "formula" when there may only be one or two clear answers. I possibly see a downfall in the popularity of the sport because of this. Maybe I'm overthinking, but that's what I think right now.

go_Rubens wrote:Well, I will say this. If they want extremely restrictive engine regs, so be it. I like F1 to see innovative design work on the cars so teams gain an advantage on one another. That's what "Formula 1" is about, to see who makes the best solution to the formula. If the regulations are restrictive, especially on the plains they are on now and could be in a few years, it may A) decrease the level of activity on track to the point you can't see good racing where one engine may help and hinder the car and B) take away the whole meaning of trying to get the best solution to the "formula" when there may only be one or two clear answers. I possibly see a downfall in the popularity of the sport because of this. Maybe I'm overthinking, but that's what I think right now.

Innovative design work, engine wise? You have been watching the wrong racing series for mostly of the last eight years. Luckily FIA will present us with what is now a once a decade engine regulations change for a couple of years before tightning everything pretty locked. But do not worry! You still have innovative design work. aero wise. Albeit a few small new concepts here and there. For the more radical stuff, I recomend not to blink your eyes because that is the time it takes nowadays for such things to be banned after its unveiling on the track.

Where do people see Nico Rosberg's career heading? This year has been a bit of a breakthrough year of sorts with his 2 wins but on the other hand he's only going to finish 6th in the championship (unless he can somehow win in Brazil). What's more, this will be his best ever finish in the championship.

He's been in the sport now for 8 years and no one is really talking about him any more. In fact, he's probably not even rated as the 2nd best German on the grid any more considering some of Hulkenberg's performances. He's never had a bad season, but not exactly ever had an outstanding one either. So what for him now?

If one of the other big teams were interested in him, they would have taken a punt by now. Things could have been very different had McLaren taken him on in 2008 instead of Kovalainen, I think that was his chance right there. McLaren are clearly looking at youth by bringing in Magnussen (although they might go for Alonso too in the future). I don't see Ferrari or Red Bull employing Rosberg on a equal-status basis to who they have in the other car and none of the other teams are in a position to be consistently competitive going forward. Nico is therefore in a position where his only shot at a title (or even a 2nd or 3rd place) is with Mercedes, where he'll have to beat Hamilton who I suspect is seen by the team as the more likely driver to carry the team forward. I genuinely think Mercedes could be his last top line drive and either the car isn't competitive enough for the title but they'll be no other good drives for him, or the car will be good enough for the title and he'll get one shot at it but end up having a career similar to Felipe Massa/Mark Webber.

watka wrote:Where do people see Nico Rosberg's career heading? This year has been a bit of a breakthrough year of sorts with his 2 wins but on the other hand he's only going to finish 6th in the championship (unless he can somehow win in Brazil). What's more, this will be his best ever finish in the championship.

He's been in the sport now for 8 years and no one is really talking about him any more. In fact, he's probably not even rated as the 2nd best German on the grid any more considering some of Hulkenberg's performances. He's never had a bad season, but not exactly ever had an outstanding one either. So what for him now?

If one of the other big teams were interested in him, they would have taken a punt by now. Things could have been very different had McLaren taken him on in 2008 instead of Kovalainen, I think that was his chance right there. McLaren are clearly looking at youth by bringing in Magnussen (although they might go for Alonso too in the future). I don't see Ferrari or Red Bull employing Rosberg on a equal-status basis to who they have in the other car and none of the other teams are in a position to be consistently competitive going forward. Nico is therefore in a position where his only shot at a title (or even a 2nd or 3rd place) is with Mercedes, where he'll have to beat Hamilton who I suspect is seen by the team as the more likely driver to carry the team forward. I genuinely think Mercedes could be his last top line drive and either the car isn't competitive enough for the title but they'll be no other good drives for him, or the car will be good enough for the title and he'll get one shot at it but end up having a career similar to Felipe Massa/Mark Webber.

I have often thought of Rosberg as being this generation's Gerhard Berger for some reason

watka wrote:Where do people see Nico Rosberg's career heading? This year has been a bit of a breakthrough year of sorts with his 2 wins but on the other hand he's only going to finish 6th in the championship (unless he can somehow win in Brazil). What's more, this will be his best ever finish in the championship.

He's been in the sport now for 8 years and no one is really talking about him any more. In fact, he's probably not even rated as the 2nd best German on the grid any more considering some of Hulkenberg's performances. He's never had a bad season, but not exactly ever had an outstanding one either. So what for him now?

If one of the other big teams were interested in him, they would have taken a punt by now. Things could have been very different had McLaren taken him on in 2008 instead of Kovalainen, I think that was his chance right there. McLaren are clearly looking at youth by bringing in Magnussen (although they might go for Alonso too in the future). I don't see Ferrari or Red Bull employing Rosberg on a equal-status basis to who they have in the other car and none of the other teams are in a position to be consistently competitive going forward. Nico is therefore in a position where his only shot at a title (or even a 2nd or 3rd place) is with Mercedes, where he'll have to beat Hamilton who I suspect is seen by the team as the more likely driver to carry the team forward. I genuinely think Mercedes could be his last top line drive and either the car isn't competitive enough for the title but they'll be no other good drives for him, or the car will be good enough for the title and he'll get one shot at it but end up having a career similar to Felipe Massa/Mark Webber.

That's a great point. I've never seen Rosberg as a potential WDC, but there are other measures of success in F1 - just becoming a race winner is difficult enough (perhaps why Maldonado is still here...). I could see Nico at a top(per) team in the event of a Alonso 2008-style fall out, or a Fisi-to-Ferrari kind of deal, where a good team needs a solid driver in a hurry, and grabs a decent option to replace an injured driver.

That aside, I think you're totally right. No shame in being Webber or a Massa mind. Felipe was even WDC for about 15 seconds!

Does anyone know where to find a F1 datasite with detailed info such as the gaps between every car on every lap, the fastest lap progression etc. This doesn't include Autosport/FORIX as it isn't free to use.

good_Ralf wrote:Does anyone know where to find a F1 datasite with detailed info such as the gaps between every car on every lap, the fastest lap progression etc. This doesn't include Autosport/FORIX as it isn't free to use.

The F1 website has a Live Timing App for mobile devices, but that's it as far as I know.

go_Rubens wrote:The F1 website has a Live Timing App for mobile devices, but that's it as far as I know.

I got that for my computer in the run-up to Singapore. Pretty good, has lap and sector times, plus temperature and TWTSNBM info.

Is it just me being slightly British-biased, or has Chilton not done as badly as people are suggesting this season, especially in comparison to van der Garde et al.

Admittedly, for the vast part of the season, Chilton hasn't been able to hold a flame to his teammate, whereas vdG has been fairly equal with his. However, vdG's teammate happens to be Charles Pic, who, although is a competent driver at this level, really isn't the second coming of Senna. Chilton meanwhile has been pitched against Jules Bianchi, who certainly has the talent to be a big star in the future.

Also, it has been pointed out that Chilton has been a tailend Charlie for the vast majority of the season. This, again, is true. What is also true is that since about Bahrian onwards, the Caterham has been streets ahead of the Marussia, and so even Bianchi is having to dig deep to keep in touch with the green cars. At the start of the season, when the two teams were more evenly matched, Chilton was a lot more evenly matched with vdG.

So all in all, I don't think Chilton has really disgraced himself this season. Whilst he hasn't shown blistering pace, no-one expected him to, and considering he's only in the sport for his cash, he hasn't driven like a blithering idiot yet all season, unlike supposedly better paydrivers (vdG, Gutierrez, Maldonado etc)

Plus of course, he naturally is Talent, Talent, Talent.

That also leads me to another question: does anybody in this world really care about Charles Pic? Other than making punny jokes. It's quite an achievement to be even more anonymous than Chilton!

takagi_for_the_win wrote:Is it just me being slightly British-biased, or has Chilton not done as badly as people are suggesting this season, especially in comparison to van der Garde et al.

Admittedly, for the vast part of the season, Chilton hasn't been able to hold a flame to his teammate, whereas vdG has been fairly equal with his. However, vdG's teammate happens to be Charles Pic, who, although is a competent driver at this level, really isn't the second coming of Senna. Chilton meanwhile has been pitched against Jules Bianchi, who certainly has the talent to be a big star in the future.

Also, it has been pointed out that Chilton has been a tailend Charlie for the vast majority of the season. This, again, is true. What is also true is that since about Bahrian onwards, the Caterham has been streets ahead of the Marussia, and so even Bianchi is having to dig deep to keep in touch with the green cars. At the start of the season, when the two teams were more evenly matched, Chilton was a lot more evenly matched with vdG.

So all in all, I don't think Chilton has really disgraced himself this season. Whilst he hasn't shown blistering pace, no-one expected him to, and considering he's only in the sport for his cash, he hasn't driven like a blithering idiot yet all season, unlike supposedly better paydrivers (vdG, Gutierrez, Maldonado etc)

Plus of course, he naturally is Talent, Talent, Talent.

Absolutely agree with this. No-one had big expectations of him, and apart from Monaco he's kept his nose clean all season. He's done exactly what was asked of him, which is to bring the car home at the end of each race. Certainly not worthy of ROTY, unlike Gutierrez or The Reverend...

And we shouldn't be bashing him anyway, this is F1 Rejects after all. People who do should be ashamed of themselves for going against the spirit of this website. Hell, that should be an automatic ban, when the revolution comes.

This wrote:That also leads me to another question: does anybody in this world really care about Charles Pic? Other than making punny jokes. It's quite an achievement to be even more anonymous than Chilton!

I care about Charlie Pic. I care about rejects! But, the British Press also tend to overhype British drivers (I'm not against it, they just do it), so if you listen to British F1 coverage, then maybe Max is more popular than Pic. But then again, you are Belgian, surely there is Belgian F1 coverage.

Now, thinking of it even more logically, Chilton is already more famous than the rest of the F1 paddock put together

Do we have a pets thread?

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:Do we have a pets thread?

Don't think so. Have you tried using the search box in the top-right-hand corner of the screen?

dr-baker wrote:

Freeze-O-Kimi wrote:Do we have a pets thread?

Don't think so. Have you tried using the search box in the top-right-hand corner of the screen?

Well, we have one now!

I wonder why the thread "Reject Car (or not) Design" never got any hits. Besides the one who opened the thread, I'm the only one who posted with interest in it! Maybe the car design template was too complicated?

I tend to agree about Chilton, as much as one of my pet hates is British jingoism in sport. He has done a solid if unspectacular job and has been less expensive than his Dutch counterpart.