Rantbox

[WeirdKerr]

While "better off" may be an overstatement, I can understand his point and fully agree that brings F1 nothing and him leaving again would not be a big loss at all.

Räikkönen is the only one who knows what he is doing, but even he doesnt know what deletraz was doing though....

[CarlosFerreira]

While "better off" may be an overstatement, I can understand his point and fully agree that Räikkönen brings F1 nothing and him leaving again would not be a big loss at all.

Thank you, sir. I was merely more forceful.

[FullMetalJack]

F1 would be better off without Raikkonen.

Unpopular F1 Opinions thread is in the EVDP forum.

[mario]

While "better off" may be an overstatement, I can understand his point and fully agree that Räikkönen brings F1 nothing and him leaving again would not be a big loss at all.

Thank you, sir. I was merely more forceful.

I would contend that it would be - regardless of whether or not you enjoy his personality, Raikkonen's competitiveness when he has a decent car is very strong (five podium finishes and a victory) and he was influential in the title race in the early part of the season when the E20 was at its most competitive. The fact that he remained in theoretical title contention until Abu Dhabi is a testament to his consistency throughout this season; furthermore, he was probably one of the cleanest of the front running drivers on the track.
Considering that Lotus's form was quite strong despite having their suspension system banned before testing and having to sit out one entire pre-season test due to a defective chassis, both their and Kimi's form over the season was surprisingly strong; I'd argue that it is better to have him present and potentially competing for the title than not.

[FullMetalJack]

While "better off" may be an overstatement, I can understand his point and fully agree that Räikkönen brings F1 nothing and him leaving again would not be a big loss at all.

Thank you, sir. I was merely more forceful.

I would contend that it would be - regardless of whether or not you enjoy his personality, Raikkonen's competitiveness when he has a decent car is very strong (five podium finishes and a victory) and he was influential in the title race in the early part of the season when the E20 was at its most competitive. The fact that he remained in theoretical title contention until Abu Dhabi is a testament to his consistency throughout this season; furthermore, he was probably one of the cleanest of the front running drivers on the track.
Considering that Lotus's form was quite strong despite having their suspension system banned before testing and having to sit out one entire pre-season test due to a defective chassis, both their and Kimi's form over the season was surprisingly strong; I'd argue that it is better to have him present and potentially competing for the title than not.

He's definitely one of the cleanest racers at the front, he wouldn't have finished every race otherwise, and only once outside the points.

[TomWazzleshaw]

Thank you, sir. I was merely more forceful.

I would contend that it would be - regardless of whether or not you enjoy his personality, Raikkonen's competitiveness when he has a decent car is very strong (five podium finishes and a victory) and he was influential in the title race in the early part of the season when the E20 was at its most competitive. The fact that he remained in theoretical title contention until Abu Dhabi is a testament to his consistency throughout this season; furthermore, he was probably one of the cleanest of the front running drivers on the track.
Considering that Lotus's form was quite strong despite having their suspension system banned before testing and having to sit out one entire pre-season test due to a defective chassis, both their and Kimi's form over the season was surprisingly strong; I'd argue that it is better to have him present and potentially competing for the title than not.

He's definitely one of the cleanest racers at the front, he wouldn't have finished every race otherwise, and only once outside the points.

And even that was only because of Lotus' incompetent strategists bathplugging it up yet again.

[DemocalypseNow]

Anti Raikkonen = Anti F1

[dr-baker]

While "better off" may be an overstatement, I can understand his point and fully agree that brings F1 nothing and him leaving again would not be a big loss at all.

Räikkönen is the only one who knows what he is doing, but even he doesnt know what deletraz was doing though....

Don't forget that HWNSNBM exclusively knows what both drivers were up to.

[FullMetalJack]

While "better off" may be an overstatement, I can understand his point and fully agree that brings F1 nothing and him leaving again would not be a big loss at all.

Räikkönen is the only one who knows what he is doing, but even he doesnt know what deletraz was doing though....

Don't forget that HWNSNBM exclusively knows what both drivers were up to.

So do I

[Jocke1]

Alright, 25 July, 2009. Midday in Hungaroring, Hungary. Formula One Qualifying session under way, Q2.
A rear damper spring comes loose from the Brawn car of Rubens Barrichello.

It should have struck HWNSNBM instead. It would have just bounced off of him and nothing else would have happened that day.

[DonTirri]

F1 would be better off without Raikkonen.

But seriously. Any reasons why? If that said Vettel, I'd understand, but Räikkönen?

[CarlosFerreira]

F1 would be better off without Raikkonen.

But seriously. Any reasons why? If that said Vettel, I'd understand, but Räikkönen?

Raikkonen went rallying and nobody missed him. Sure, he's experienced and proper fast every now and then, but he's an also-run these days.

[Salamander]

F1 would be better off without Raikkonen.

But seriously. Any reasons why? If that said Vettel, I'd understand, but Räikkönen?

Raikkonen went rallying and nobody missed him. Sure, he's experienced and proper fast every now and then, but he's an also-run these days.

An also-run!? The man was 3rd in the bloody world championship! Did you not see some of his overtakes later in the year!?

[CarlosFerreira]

An also-run!? The man was 3rd in the bloody world championship! Did you not see some of his overtakes later in the year!?

Frankly, no. Apart from the moments when the press went all crazy in love at him for being a pathetic moron on the radio to his engineer, I hardly noticed he was racing at all.

[CoopsII]

Raikkonen went rallying and nobody missed him. Sure, he's experienced and proper fast every now and then, but he's an also-run these days.

Dont forget his NASCAR stint. That was a fairy-tale that wrote itself...

[DemocalypseNow]

Raikkonen went rallying and nobody missed him. Sure, he's experienced and proper fast every now and then, but he's an also-run these days.

That's just...wrong.

Raikkonen's comeback has been the polar opposite of Schumacher's. While Schumacher faded into oblivion to the point that no-one was surprised nor cared when he announced his second retirement, Raikkonen has hit a second wave of popularity.

Also, how can you justify calling someone third in the world championship an also-ran? So everyone except Vettel and Alonso are irrelevant then? Why are you even here if that's what you think? We might as well just kick every team that isn't Red Bull and Ferrari out of Formula One in that case! Get rid of ALL the midfield and backmarker teams! Make F1 Rejects' existence redundant! Watch Vettel and Alonso lap around the track on their own for two hours! Who cares about anyone else, they suck!

Much like Schumacher, your comeback is rather disappointing compared to your first stint in F1 (Rejects).

[mario]

An also-run!? The man was 3rd in the bloody world championship! Did you not see some of his overtakes later in the year!?

Not to mention that Button has now said that, earlier in the year, he expected the title battle to be between McLaren and Lotus as he considered them, and Raikkonen in particular, to present a greater threat to their success than either Ferrari or Red Bull.
To say that Kimi was just an "also ran" is underplaying his success that year - although he wasn't on the top step of the podium that frequently, he picked up as many podiums on his own as both McLaren drivers managed between themselves (Kimi had six podiums, whilst Hamilton and Button picked up three other podium finishes apiece). http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104898

[CarlosFerreira]

Raikkonen went rallying and nobody missed him. Sure, he's experienced and proper fast every now and then, but he's an also-run these days.

Dont forget his NASCAR stint. That was a fairy-tale that wrote itself...

Did he try NASCAR? I'll look it up, don't remember reading about it.

[FMecha]

He raced in Truck Series and Nationwide, IIRC.

*grabs popcorn*

[CoopsII]

Raikkonen went rallying and nobody missed him. Sure, he's experienced and proper fast every now and then, but he's an also-run these days.

Dont forget his NASCAR stint. That was a fairy-tale that wrote itself...

Did he try NASCAR? I'll look it up, don't remember reading about it.

He drove a truck. Then he drove a car. Then he took a sh1t. Then he went home. S'about it really.

[DemocalypseNow]

Alternatively we could just throw the book at him.

And by book, I mean the dictionary. Which in fairness is a pretty big and heavy book.

also-ran

1: a horse or dog that finishes out of the money in a race

"Out of the money" in betting terms means outside the top three. Raikkonen was 3rd in WDC.

2: a contestant that does not win

Raikkonen won the Abu Dhabi GP this year, has a career total of 19 wins and was 2007 World Champion.

3: one that is of little importance especially competitively

He was on the podium seven times this year. While Grosjean was busy crashing into everything in sight, Kimi was having to drag Lotus up the constructors standings by himself.

Ergo, your statement that Raikkonen is not relevant is by definition incorrect.

[CarlosFerreira]

Dont forget his NASCAR stint. That was a fairy-tale that wrote itself...

Did he try NASCAR? I'll look it up, don't remember reading about it.

He drove a truck. Then he drove a car. Then he took a sh1t. Then he went home. S'about it really.

That description kind of made my day. Thank you.

[CoopsII]

Ergo, your statement that Raikkonen is not relevant is by definition incorrect.

Aah, its nice to see the old place is still the same.

OPINIONS - NOT WELCOME HERE!!

[girry]

Bias and dislike towards drivers are natural for us (apart from the user mario here, he seems like the only totally objective formula 1 fan I have ever seen anywhere), but imo saying 'f1 would be better off without this driver' is rather silly in the cases where it is totally visible the driver in question does merit a seat by his skills.

I mean, how boring would F1 be if we liked all the damn drivers?

[CarlosFerreira]

An also-run!? The man was 3rd in the bloody world championship! Did you not see some of his overtakes later in the year!?

Not to mention that Button has now said that, earlier in the year, he expected the title battle to be between McLaren and Lotus as he considered them, and Raikkonen in particular, to present a greater threat to their success than either Ferrari or Red Bull.
To say that Kimi was just an "also ran" is underplaying his success that year - although he wasn't on the top step of the podium that frequently, he picked up as many podiums on his own as both McLaren drivers managed between themselves (Kimi had six podiums, whilst Hamilton and Button picked up three other podium finishes apiece). http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104898

I know mario, but I think you'll agree a lot of that has to do with McLaren's various woes throughout the year, mechanical and otherwise. Hamilton should have been a title contender and finished the WDC second at least. Button, had he not gone AWOL in the middle part of the season, would have easily beaten him. Webber consistently under-performed after Monaco... I do understand that the final result is what matters, but ultimately Raikkonen was nowhere near the third fastest driver throughout the year.

How's this for a conciliatory effort: in 2012, Raikkonen reminded me of Riccardo Patrese. Or Rubens Barrichello.

[girry]

OPINIONS - NOT WELCOME HERE!!

btw, weren't you the one who earlier this year left this forum in anger, due to someone here being negative about Helmut Marko (Helmut should leave the sport)?

I'd just like to state that your defense of another negative opinion (Kimi should leave the sport) in this matter could slightly smell like hypocrisy...

[Phoenix]

I think I feel the urge to throw in my two cents on the Räikkönen issue.

Kimi Räikkönen was never going to be a massive hit after two season away from the sport, but in my humble opinion he more often than not outperformed the car. Whenever the Lotus E20 was at its best, he had a shot at victory (though I'll concede he lacked clinical killer instinct on those occasions), but the E20 was often between the 3rd-4th best car in the field.

To sum up, Räikkönen not only did, on average, a solid job, he was often above the levels of the car, which is more than a Patrese or Barrichello used to do. Granted, if McLaren's reliability used to falter at crucial times, Räikkönen would have finished lower in the Championship, but even with that he did finish 3rd. Which, ironically, reminds me of Patrese in 1989, when the Williams was good but not great and yet he managed to finish 3rd in the Championship (with a Renault-engined chassis too) by capitalising on Ferrari's severe unreliability. He just didn't sit there and let the results come. He fought for them, and testament to that is his overtake to Michael Schumacher at Spa, amongst others that I can't remember right now but I know were there.

[Salamander]

An also-run!? The man was 3rd in the bloody world championship! Did you not see some of his overtakes later in the year!?

Frankly, no. Apart from the moments when the press went all crazy in love at him for being a pathetic moron on the radio to his engineer, I hardly noticed he was racing at all.

... so you didn't notice his overtake on Schumacher at Eau Rouge, then? Or passing Hulkenberg around the outside at Austin? How much F1 did you watch this year, anyway? Raikkonen had plenty of great drives - he wasn't the best this year - Alonso, Vettel, and Hamilton were all better - but he deserves a spot in F1 more than most drivers.

Ergo, your statement that Raikkonen is not relevant is by definition incorrect.

Aah, its nice to see the old place is still the same.

OPINIONS - NOT WELCOME HERE!!

So, because kostas proved that Carlos' opinion on Raikkonen was wrong by using a dictionary, that makes all opinions unwelcome? Fantastic logic. PROTIP: If you say something that's provably wrong, don't be surprised when

An also-run!? The man was 3rd in the bloody world championship! Did you not see some of his overtakes later in the year!?

Not to mention that Button has now said that, earlier in the year, he expected the title battle to be between McLaren and Lotus as he considered them, and Raikkonen in particular, to present a greater threat to their success than either Ferrari or Red Bull.
To say that Kimi was just an "also ran" is underplaying his success that year - although he wasn't on the top step of the podium that frequently, he picked up as many podiums on his own as both McLaren drivers managed between themselves (Kimi had six podiums, whilst Hamilton and Button picked up three other podium finishes apiece). http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104898

I know mario, but I think you'll agree a lot of that has to do with McLaren's various woes throughout the year, mechanical and otherwise. Hamilton should have been a title contender and finished the WDC second at least. Button, had he not gone AWOL in the middle part of the season, would have easily beaten him. Webber consistently under-performed after Monaco... I do understand that the final result is what matters, but ultimately Raikkonen was nowhere near the third fastest driver throughout the year.

Yeah, so was about 4th or 5th fastest over the season. That's nothing to be ashamed of - most drivers can only dream of doing that well.

How's this for a conciliatory effort: in 2012, Raikkonen reminded me of Riccardo Patrese. Or Rubens Barrichello.

I'm not sure I see what you mean by this...

[mario]

An also-run!? The man was 3rd in the bloody world championship! Did you not see some of his overtakes later in the year!?

Not to mention that Button has now said that, earlier in the year, he expected the title battle to be between McLaren and Lotus as he considered them, and Raikkonen in particular, to present a greater threat to their success than either Ferrari or Red Bull.
To say that Kimi was just an "also ran" is underplaying his success that year - although he wasn't on the top step of the podium that frequently, he picked up as many podiums on his own as both McLaren drivers managed between themselves (Kimi had six podiums, whilst Hamilton and Button picked up three other podium finishes apiece). http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104898

I know mario, but I think you'll agree a lot of that has to do with McLaren's various woes throughout the year, mechanical and otherwise. Hamilton should have been a title contender and finished the WDC second at least. Button, had he not gone AWOL in the middle part of the season, would have easily beaten him. Webber consistently under-performed after Monaco... I do understand that the final result is what matters, but ultimately Raikkonen was nowhere near the third fastest driver throughout the year.

How's this for a conciliatory effort: in 2012, Raikkonen reminded me of Riccardo Patrese. Or Rubens Barrichello.

I hope that responding further to your posts does not inflame the situation further given that there has been a slightly acrimonious response to your comments. Whilst I may not always agree with the opinions of others, so long as they are put forth in an amicable manner and are well reasoned, I am happy to accept the right of the other person to hold those opinions - and I hope that others abide by those principles too.

Although I do concede that some of Kimi's success this season was down in part to the problems that McLaren had, at the same time Kimi still faced severe competition from the likes of Red Bull and Ferrari too - McLaren's misfortunes alone were not the only reason why Kimi profited, although I would agree that it certainly helped him beat Hamilton given the mechanical breakdowns he suffered at crucial points in the year.
Now, that is not to say that Kimi's season was perfect - there were several instances where he didn't perform well, such as in Monaco and Canada, and his form did tail off towards the end of the year, although that was in part because Lotus ploughed considerable resources on their double DRS system without actually using it and hadn't optimised their "Coanda exhaust" system by the end of the year (they admitted that they were suffering from a noticeable power loss due to changes in their exhaust geometry). Similarly, he was shown up at times by Grosjean in qualifying due to his old problems with getting his tyres into their operating window over a single lap, and in the earlier part of the season you could see that he still lacked some confidence when having to attack or defend (although that did improve over the course of the season).

Nevertheless, I would still say that, overall, Kimi's performance across the year was still one of the stronger performances out there (which is backed up by what the team bosses said when polled by Autosport - they ranked Kimi as being virtually equal with Hamilton as the third best driver of the year). Button did indeed have problems in the middle of the season, but in a number of instances those problems were self inflicted - his problems in Canada, for example, were down to the rear suspension set up he adopted despite the contrary advice the team gave him. Similarly, Webber did also underperform in the latter part of the year, save for a couple of instances, but although some of those problems were related to reliability, at the same time not all of his misfortunes can be ascribed to that alone.
Yes, Kimi's success was at times fortunate, but considering that Lotus's resources are below those of the top three teams (probably being closer to Mercedes and the top end of the midfield rather than McLaren, Ferrari or Red Bull) and the fact that the field as a whole became increasingly strung out in the latter half of the year, Kimi's downturn in performance in the latter half of the year was still nevertheless managed relatively well. We may quibble about where exactly he'd rank, but Kimi is still a competitive driver - his lap times over a full race distance are still just as consistent as those of Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton or Button, and although he wasn't always the third fastest driver out there, he was still the driver who put himself in a position where he could take advantage of the problems that others encountered when they came about.

Overall, I would say that it is better for the sport to have another competitive driver capable of harassing the drivers in the leading teams than not. To a certain extent, Kimi is a bit like Alonso - Alonso stated quite clearly that he doesn't aim to be the best in one particular field and doesn't aim to be the quickest driver on the grid; rather, he aims to be the most consistent driver and be second or third best across a wide range of areas. Similarly, Kimi may not always be the best driver in any one particular area, but overall he is still capable of performing strongly enough over a wider range of areas that he is, on average, still a very capable driver.

[Ataxia]

Raikkonen is a boss. He overtakes, he races hard, and he's good for a laugh. I missed him during his little hiatus, and I'm glad he's returned.

[CarlosFerreira]

I hope that responding further to your posts does not inflame the situation further given that there has been a slightly acrimonious response to your comments.

I certainly hope not, mario. It wasn't my intention to make a fuss, but at least I like the fact people have decided to make their opinion heard.

I am amused that many fellow forum members find it agreeable to savage Vettel, Alonson and Hamilton (the three greatest talents of our time, I'm sure you'll agree), not to mention Schumacher and Prost, but simply will not have it that someone dislikes Raikkonen. Likewise our discussion a couple of weeks ago about Marussia and Caterham - I discovered that to support the latter over the former was sacrilegious. Meh.

Just between you and me: I have never quite liked Raikkonen. I don't like the attitude, and I was especially cross at him for winning the 2007 WDC out of nowhere.

[tommykl]

Now, I don't particularly like Vettel, or Hamilton, or Alonso. I much prefer guys like Räikkönen or Webber. I don't like Vettel that much because a) he single-handedly turned 2011 into 2004, b) he doesn't really seem particularly modest about his achievements and c) the media talks him up as the best of the lot, which isn't necessarily true. Take away the a) and you pretty much get how I feel about Hamilton as well.

I've taken a liking to Alonso in recent times despite having the sort of hatred a 10-to-12-year-old has when he was at Renault and McLaren, but what he's done with the Ferraris that weren't supposed to be fighting for the championships has made me give a lot more respect to a guy I always saw as yet another guy who could only achieve anything in a dominant car. I still don't really like him because of some of the comments he makes to the press, but I certainly see him as better than Hamilton or Vettel.

Räikkönen is, I feel, in the same group as the three above. He's a very talented driver who's almost always near the front, doesn't get distracted by his private life (unlike Hamilton) and can still do very well in machinery that is good-but-not-quite-excellent (see his Sauber days). That and his love-or-hate comments. I really do think Formula One needs a guy that can make everyone laugh once in a while, who just doesn't care about what the PR guys tell him. I get that some people don't like it, but I see it as a welcome change.

As for Webber, I like him because he at least tried to fight the blatant favouritism towards Vettel, contributed to Red Bull being what it is now (alongside Coulthard and Newey), and just seems like a really nice, likeable chap who can still take the odd feel-good victory.

In any case, if any of these five were to leave, F1 would not be better off. Simply because F1 needs an internationally recogniseable face (Vettel), a guy who will always be there to rival him (Alonso), a quick-yet-unlucky hero (Hamilton), a guy who can amuse everyone (Räikkönen) and the really likeable everyone's-second-favourite-driver figure (Webber).

[CarlosFerreira]

In any case, if any of these five were to leave, F1 would not be better off. Simply because F1 needs an internationally recogniseable face (Vettel), a guy who will always be there to rival him (Alonso), a quick-yet-unlucky hero (Hamilton), a guy who can amuse everyone (Räikkönen) and the really likeable everyone's-second-favourite-driver figure (Webber).

I'm ready to capitulate, sir. I shall magnanimously allow Mr K Raikkonen continue next season, on the condition that I am allowed to be mildly irritated by him. Could you be so kind as to add Mr J Button to your list? I'm afraid I have rather warmed to the chap over time.

Deal?

[Salamander]

In any case, if any of these five were to leave, F1 would not be better off. Simply because F1 needs an internationally recogniseable face (Vettel), a guy who will always be there to rival him (Alonso), a quick-yet-unlucky hero (Hamilton), a guy who can amuse everyone (Räikkönen) and the really likeable everyone's-second-favourite-driver figure (Webber).

I'm ready to capitulate, sir. I shall magnanimously allow Mr K Raikkonen continue next season, on the condition that I am allowed to be mildly irritated by him. Could you be so kind as to add Mr J Button to your list? I'm afraid I have rather warmed to the chap over time.

Deal?

I think you can fit Button in right alongside Webber in the 'really likeable everyone's-second-favourite-driver' category.

[CarlosFerreira]

In any case, if any of these five were to leave, F1 would not be better off. Simply because F1 needs an internationally recogniseable face (Vettel), a guy who will always be there to rival him (Alonso), a quick-yet-unlucky hero (Hamilton), a guy who can amuse everyone (Räikkönen) and the really likeable everyone's-second-favourite-driver figure (Webber).

I'm ready to capitulate, sir. I shall magnanimously allow Mr K Raikkonen continue next season, on the condition that I am allowed to be mildly irritated by him. Could you be so kind as to add Mr J Button to your list? I'm afraid I have rather warmed to the chap over time.

Deal?

I think you can fit Button in right alongside Webber in the 'really likeable everyone's-second-favourite-driver' category.

The best kind.

[tommykl]

I agree with Button being placed alongside Webber, I just hadn't thought of him when writing that post.

[DemocalypseNow]

See, this is why I'm so aghast at the Raikkonen dislike. It's not that you dislike him at all, its the precise reason. It feels like an indirect personal attack. Would you say the same thing about every person that acted this way?

I don't think you get it. You've been exposed to too much Britishness over the years Carlos and it's messing with your head. He's quiet sure, but now you're saying he has to be polite and have manners while talking on team radio in the middle of the race? What the hell? I praise his attitude, one where he doesn't speak unless its necessary to. Society is too bogged down with inane waffling and pointless chatter. I get fed up of Raikkonen being called arrogant because of this, because I am also called arrogant because of this, when people just don't get there's no need to pointlessly talk all of the time.

For the exact reasons you don't like him, I do.

[Klon]

The problem with it all is, for me, not that he is acting that way as much as people trying to sell it as "cool" and "charismatic". I don't know whether it is just me being hipster or Räikkönen just going against what I have learned is charisma, but Kimi is pretty much a black hole of entertainment as far as I am concerned. That in itself is cool with me, this is not sports entertainment, so I can live with that: but then you (as in the general you) musn't try to sell me him as a savior in a world of corporate puppets. If anything I am more disappointed with how fans react to Räikkönen than with Räikkönen himself, who is a more than capable driver, but should, as far as I am concerned, just be kept away from a microphone.

And the team radio in Abu Dhabi was just dickish: "I know what to do" - really? Don't you think your race engineer knows that and is just doing his job? Räikkönen can be grateful that his engineer seems to be of the understanding type because I for my part would have spend the next five laps ripping him a new one on the team radio.

[CoopsII]

PROTIP: If you say something that's provably wrong, don't be surprised when

When? When? When what? Dont leave me hanging! Worst PROTIP ever (whatever a PROTIP is, sounds a bit wanky to me).

Anyway, "provably wrong" Not sure if throwing a load of stats at a guy who felt a driver wasnt the be all end all others do is hardly proving anything.

[CoopsII]

btw, weren't you the one who earlier this year left this forum in anger, due to someone here being negative about Helmut Marko (Helmut should leave the sport)?

No. I left because I felt the use of the word 'hate' in an F1 forum thread title was juvenile and unnnecessary. And I wasnt angry I just closed the page and went and looked at something else.