Grand Prix Rejects

Posted: **22 Dec 2012, 12:00**

CoopsII wrote:
BlindCaveSalamander wrote:PROTIP: If you say something that's provably wrong, don't be surprised when

When? When? When what? Dont leave me hanging! Worst PROTIP ever (whatever a PROTIP is, sounds a bit wanky to me).

Anyway, "provably wrong" Not sure if throwing a load of stats at a guy who felt a driver wasnt the be all end all others do is hardly proving anything.

Not sure how I missed finishing that statement, but what I was going to say is that if you say something that's provably wrong, don't be surprised when somebody proves what you're saying is wrong. And yes, saying Raikkonen was an also-ran and irrelevant was provably wrong.

Posted: **22 Dec 2012, 12:29**

Klon wrote:And the team radio in Abu Dhabi was just dickish: "I know what to do" - really? Don't you think your race engineer knows that and is just doing his job? Räikkönen can be grateful that his engineer seems to be of the understanding type because I for my part would have spend the next five laps ripping him a new one on the team radio.

I'd tend to agree. He's also done in NASCAR, I understand. http://jalopnik.com/5806620/the-ten-fun ... ries-debut

Posted: **22 Dec 2012, 12:44**

CarlosFerreira wrote:
Klon wrote:And the team radio in Abu Dhabi was just dickish: "I know what to do" - really? Don't you think your race engineer knows that and is just doing his job? Räikkönen can be grateful that his engineer seems to be of the understanding type because I for my part would have spend the next five laps ripping him a new one on the team radio.

I'd tend to agree. He's also done in NASCAR, I understand. http://jalopnik.com/5806620/the-ten-fun ... ries-debut

That wasn't his race engineer who said that. Mark Slade is his race engineer, but it was Simon Rennie who gave the message. Apparently, Slade mentioned to Rennie that Kimi wouldn't particularly like that kind of message; the former having worked with him at McLaren and thus it would have been better coming from him. However, Rennie went on regardless, and you know the rest...

Posted: **22 Dec 2012, 17:36**

BaconLettuceNinja wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
Klon wrote:And the team radio in Abu Dhabi was just dickish: "I know what to do" - really? Don't you think your race engineer knows that and is just doing his job? Räikkönen can be grateful that his engineer seems to be of the understanding type because I for my part would have spend the next five laps ripping him a new one on the team radio.

I'd tend to agree. He's also done in NASCAR, I understand. http://jalopnik.com/5806620/the-ten-fun ... ries-debut

That wasn't his race engineer who said that. Mark Slade is his race engineer, but it was Simon Rennie who gave the message. Apparently, Slade mentioned to Rennie that Kimi wouldn't particularly like that kind of message; the former having worked with him at McLaren and thus it would have been better coming from him. However, Rennie went on regardless, and you know the rest...

I mean christ, are you even putting yourself in his place people? It's the middle of a race and it takes complete concentration to drive to the limit. Having someone talking in your ear with totally unnecessary information is just a distraction, it's completely unhelpful. It's the middle of a race, why should he be concerned about his manners?! But I wouldn't expect Brits or Germans of all people to figure out that manners just aren't necessary in some situations.

Rennie mentions the gap to Alonso - is this really necessary? I don't know about Kimi, but some people just don't want to know, they want to get on with their own race. Maybe information like Target +3 or Target -5 can be useful, but knowing how far ahead of a specific driver one is, is just strategic shortsightedness. Secondly, remember to warm all four tyres? Seriously? Anyone who has driven an F1 car for more than five mintues knows to do this instinctively. I would be really pissed off by such mollycoddling, it's bordering on assuming the driver is an idiot.

I would have reacted the same, because all of what Rennie did was completely unnecessary and disruptive. I should think he's learned his lesson by now, leave the communication to Mark who actually knows what he's doing (too).

Posted: **22 Dec 2012, 18:17**

kostas22 wrote:Rennie mentions the gap to Alonso - is this really necessary? I don't know about Kimi, but some people just don't want to know, they want to get on with their own race. Maybe information like Target +3 or Target -5 can be useful, but knowing how far ahead of a specific driver one is, is just strategic shortsightedness.

During the race in Austin, Kimi asked for exactly that sort of information over the radio - he specifically asked for the time difference between himself and Button over the radio and whether the team expected Button to be ahead or behind him, given that Button was going to be stopping significantly later than he was. There have been a few other times this year when Kimi has asked for data about the relative position of a driver, so, given that Alonso was directly behind Kimi and had started to pick up his pace at the time, it's not surprising that the team might have expected that Kimi would be interested in hearing that information.

Posted: **22 Dec 2012, 18:37**

mario wrote:
kostas22 wrote:Rennie mentions the gap to Alonso - is this really necessary? I don't know about Kimi, but some people just don't want to know, they want to get on with their own race. Maybe information like Target +3 or Target -5 can be useful, but knowing how far ahead of a specific driver one is, is just strategic shortsightedness.

During the race in Austin, Kimi asked for exactly that sort of information over the radio - he specifically asked for the time difference between himself and Button over the radio and whether the team expected Button to be ahead or behind him, given that Button was going to be stopping significantly later than he was. There have been a few other times this year when Kimi has asked for data about the relative position of a driver, so, given that Alonso was directly behind Kimi and had started to pick up his pace at the time, it's not surprising that the team might have expected that Kimi would be interested in hearing that information.

Fair enough, but key difference here; asked vs told.

Posted: **22 Dec 2012, 19:09**

kostas22 wrote:...it's bordering on assuming the driver is an idiot.

Perhaps that would be the safest assumption in F1.

Posted: **24 Dec 2012, 23:35**

Don't read this if you are annoyed by really long and annoying rants:

I'm really annoyed by the way no one seems to listen to anything I say. Everyone thinks that I talk too much and that I should think of other people more. However, the truth is that everyone is so selfish. They want me to act the way they want, not thinking of the other person at all (while they accuse me of just this). Apparently I should just make compromises in everything I do because that's the way things go in life. If everyone else is living a life full of misery and compromises, it doesn't mean that I should do the same! If other people find me so annoying, they should just be honest and leave the place in question (or annoy me enough to make me leave). I just guess I was born in the wrong country; Finland where everyone should just be quiet and not say anything. It's really cold here as well so I guess I would gladly switch places with Pérez who visited Finland this month.

In other words, thank HWNSNBM for this forum. At least people read my posts here (and if they don't, at least I can think they do). :lol:

Posted: **25 Dec 2012, 00:44**

Who are you again?

With F1 kind of admitting that it isn't interested in new automotive technologies such as the Delta Wing, is there a point for customer cars to still be banned?

Posted: **25 Dec 2012, 01:31**

Meatwad wrote:Don't read this if you are annoyed by really long and annoying rants:

I'm really annoyed by the way no one seems to listen to anything I say. Everyone thinks that I talk too much and that I should think of other people more. However, the truth is that everyone is so selfish. They want me to act the way they want, not thinking of the other person at all (while they accuse me of just this). Apparently I should just make compromises in everything I do because that's the way things go in life. If everyone else is living a life full of misery and compromises, it doesn't mean that I should do the same! If other people find me so annoying, they should just be honest and leave the place in question (or annoy me enough to make me leave). I just guess I was born in the wrong country; Finland where everyone should just be quiet and not say anything. It's really cold here as well so I guess I would gladly switch places with Pérez who visited Finland this month.

In other words, thank HWNSNBM for this forum. At least people read my posts here (and if they don't, at least I can think they do).

Let's give this guy a collective F1rejects hug!

Posted: **25 Dec 2012, 01:34**

This wrote:Let's give this guy a collective F1rejects hug!

Thanks! It's nice to have at least some understanding. You can always count on F1 Rejects!

Cynon wrote:With F1 kind of admitting that it isn't interested in new automotive technologies such as the Delta Wing, is there a point for customer cars to still be banned?

One point is that it would have an effect on the constructors' championship with the customer teams easily beating the likes of Caterham and Marussia, if not even some better teams. For example, Toro Rosso could do pretty well if they used an RBR chassis (although they were useless in 2009 in spite of using a similar one to RBR). Of course, this could be solved by having the teams with customer cars not classified in the championship (or at least not scoring prize money).

I would personally not be against customer cars although I would limit this to using cars from the year before or earlier. Having Prodrive there would have been so much better than the slow teams that we got (only HRT was even entertainingly rejectful). And Gary Paffett would have got his chance.

Posted: **25 Dec 2012, 04:31**

If we don't count the customer cars in the championship, that would be the best solution. They may be able to win money, but no championship for customer cars should keep the number of them down.

Posted: **25 Dec 2012, 07:28**

This wrote:
Meatwad wrote:Don't read this if you are annoyed by really long and annoying rants:

I'm really annoyed by the way no one seems to listen to anything I say. Everyone thinks that I talk too much and that I should think of other people more. However, the truth is that everyone is so selfish. They want me to act the way they want, not thinking of the other person at all (while they accuse me of just this). Apparently I should just make compromises in everything I do because that's the way things go in life. If everyone else is living a life full of misery and compromises, it doesn't mean that I should do the same! If other people find me so annoying, they should just be honest and leave the place in question (or annoy me enough to make me leave). I just guess I was born in the wrong country; Finland where everyone should just be quiet and not say anything. It's really cold here as well so I guess I would gladly switch places with Pérez who visited Finland this month.

In other words, thank HWNSNBM for this forum. At least people read my posts here (and if they don't, at least I can think they do).

Let's give this guy a collective F1rejects hug!

Posted: **25 Dec 2012, 09:55**

Meatwad wrote:
Cynon wrote:With F1 kind of admitting that it isn't interested in new automotive technologies such as the Delta Wing, is there a point for customer cars to still be banned?

One point is that it would have an effect on the constructors' championship with the customer teams easily beating the likes of Caterham and Marussia, if not even some better teams. For example, Toro Rosso could do pretty well if they used an RBR chassis (although they were useless in 2009 in spite of using a similar one to RBR). Of course, this could be solved by having the teams with customer cars not classified in the championship (or at least not scoring prize money).

I would personally not be against customer cars although I would limit this to using cars from the year before or earlier. Having Prodrive there would have been so much better than the slow teams that we got (only HRT was even entertainingly rejectful). And Gary Paffett would have got his chance.

The main opposition to customer cars has generally come from the midfield teams - the likes of Sauber, Force India and Williams, with Williams being particularly virulently opposed - rather than those right at the back.

Simply put, the midfield teams feel that they have the most to lose by customer cars being introduced - not just in terms of being potentially cut out of the points and money (both directly and indirectly, via competition for sponsors and a reduction in airtime etc), but also seeing their political power within the sport being effectively diluted by outfits that, being dependent on the parent team, would help stack the voting process against them.
Red Bull have already used that to their advantage (there have been times when Red Bull has used Toro Rosso to help block proposed regulation changes by also getting them to vote against measures), as have Ferrari with Sauber, and I can't imagine that the midfield and smaller teams would be pleased to see the larger outfits stuffing the sport with loyal lackeys.

Posted: **25 Dec 2012, 19:03**

I do have to point out that Carlos has a point about the board favorites. Bashing Vettel is A-ok. But people flock to defence when Kimi gets trashed. (Oh and I get trashed for supporting Vettel, but that's neither here or there)
Funny how it works eh?

Posted: **25 Dec 2012, 19:30**

DonTirri wrote:I do have to point out that Carlos has a point about the board favorites. Bashing Vettel is A-ok. But people flock to defence when Kimi gets trashed. (Oh and I get trashed for supporting Vettel, but that's neither here or there)
Funny how it works eh?

Yeah, who would've guessed people are biased towards drivers they like, and that somebody like Kimi is more popular than the apparent second coming of Schumacher?

Posted: **25 Dec 2012, 19:45**

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
DonTirri wrote:I do have to point out that Carlos has a point about the board favorites. Bashing Vettel is A-ok. But people flock to defence when Kimi gets trashed. (Oh and I get trashed for supporting Vettel, but that's neither here or there)
Funny how it works eh?

Yeah, who would've guessed people are biased towards drivers they like, and that somebody like Kimi is more popular than the apparent second coming of Schumacher?

How Kimi seems more welcome in F1 than Schumacher is something I'll never understand. And before someone accuses me of being a Schu-fan, I want to make it clear I don't really like the guy.

Posted: **25 Dec 2012, 19:54**

CarlosFerreira wrote:
BlindCaveSalamander wrote:
DonTirri wrote:I do have to point out that Carlos has a point about the board favorites. Bashing Vettel is A-ok. But people flock to defence when Kimi gets trashed. (Oh and I get trashed for supporting Vettel, but that's neither here or there)
Funny how it works eh?

Yeah, who would've guessed people are biased towards drivers they like, and that somebody like Kimi is more popular than the apparent second coming of Schumacher?

How Kimi seems more welcome in F1 than Schumacher is something I'll never understand. And before someone accuses me of being a Schu-fan, I want to make it clear I don't really like the guy.

Well I do. Räikkönen is a rebel, free spirit kind of guy and that sits well with many people (probably because they're too scared to become that kind of people themselves). Michael Schumacher is just a cool teutonic MF who is often associated with cheating because of Australia '94, Jerez '97, Austria '02 or Monaco '06.

Posted: **25 Dec 2012, 19:56**

Phoenix wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
BlindCaveSalamander wrote:]

Yeah, who would've guessed people are biased towards drivers they like, and that somebody like Kimi is more popular than the apparent second coming of Schumacher?

How Kimi seems more welcome in F1 than Schumacher is something I'll never understand. And before someone accuses me of being a Schu-fan, I want to make it clear I don't really like the guy.

Well I do. Räikkönen is a rebel, free spirit kind of guy and that sits well with many people (probably because they're too scared to become that kind of people themselves). Michael Schumacher is just a cool teutonic MF who is often associated with cheating because of Australia '94, Jerez '97, Austria '02 or Monaco '06.

The thing that gets to me about Vettel is his arrogance

Posted: **25 Dec 2012, 20:28**

Phoenix wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
BlindCaveSalamander wrote:Yeah, who would've guessed people are biased towards drivers they like, and that somebody like Kimi is more popular than the apparent second coming of Schumacher?

How Kimi seems more welcome in F1 than Schumacher is something I'll never understand. And before someone accuses me of being a Schu-fan, I want to make it clear I don't really like the guy.

Well I do. Räikkönen is a rebel, free spirit kind of guy and that sits well with many people (probably because they're too scared to become that kind of people themselves). Michael Schumacher is just a cool teutonic MF who is often associated with cheating because of Australia '94, Jerez '97, Austria '02 or Monaco '06.

I definitely buy that answer - I think that's the reason. But allow me to look at it the other way: Michael Schumacher is a 7 times world champion, a man who lives and breathes racing, who loves F1 more than life himself. He is a multi-millionaire who, at the age of 40 or 41, found himself almost beheaded by Liuzzi's Force India in the last race of the season (Abu Dhabi, 2010) and came back for seconds next year. And the year after. I might not like The Schu, but by goodness I respect how much he loves F1. Kimi Raikkonen, on the other hand, is former Champion who dislikes the fans, routinely disrespects those who work with him, does not miss an opportunity to express how much he dislikes everything about F1, and actually bugger off to race Fiestas at one point.

I sometimes think F1 fans have a kind of Stockholm Syndrome when it comes to Raikkonen, a sort of "the more you hit me, the more I love you" attitude.

Posted: **25 Dec 2012, 20:39**

CarlosFerreira wrote:routinely disrespects those who work with him

Uh, what? I'm sorry, I didn't realise you had a job at Enstone. Oh, wait, you don't? Well, where's the evidence you're using to back this claim?

Your attitude towards him is ignorance. I'm not defending Kimi Raikkonen here anymore, I'm defending his attitude. Just because he's not all happy smiley means he's a bad person? Just because he has a cold exterior, it automatically makes him a bad person?

This is why I dislike people like you. You just don't get it. This is why I spend my life marginalised by society, just because I have to put up with people who expect me to be happy about every f***ing thing on this earth.

I've had it with this now. It's not about Kimi anymore. Those attacks clearly weren't directed at me, but they're offensive to me, and I've had enough of tolerating them.

Posted: **25 Dec 2012, 20:45**

kostas22 wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:routinely disrespects those who work with him

Uh, what? I'm sorry, I didn't realise you had a job at Enstone. Oh, wait, you don't? Well, where's the evidence you're using to back this claim?

Your attitude towards him is ignorance. I'm not defending Kimi Raikkonen here anymore, I'm defending his attitude. Just because he's not all happy smiley means he's a bad person? Just because he has a cold exterior, it automatically makes him a bad person?

This is why I dislike people like you. You just don't get it. This is why I spend my life marginalised by society, just because I have to put up with people who expect me to be happy about every f***ing thing on this earth.

I've had it with this now. It's not about Kimi anymore. Those attacks clearly weren't directed at me, but they're offensive to me, and I've had enough of tolerating them.

Kostas, you're a man who doesn't beat around the bush. And I respect that massively.

Posted: **25 Dec 2012, 20:58**

Kostas summed the situation up very eloquently.

Besides, what does it matter what kinda person an F1-driver is? F1, like any sport, is about the result. Not the person delivering the result. Or on a more broader sense, the performance the put out. A drivers personality should matter ONLY when they affect the events on the track one way or the other.

Kimi's apparent coldness from what I gather has never done so. While on the other hand the personality failings of lets say Hamilton or Alonso or Schuey have.

I like Räikkönen because I enjoy his racecraft. I like Vettel because I enjoy his racecraft. On the flipside, while I respect Schuey's talent, I can't stand him due to his sketchy moves and questionable tactics. While I admit Hamilton can be a quick guy, I think he is a disaster waiting to happen because of his reckless and entitled driving. While I aknowledge that Alonso isn't exactly a shabby driver, I can't help but to disrespect him due to the crap he has pulled or has had pulled for him on the track. (the antics in 2007, crashgate, Fernando is faster than you etc).

Personality be damned. It's the racecraft that matters.

EDIT: I also think that the Red Bull favoring Vettel crap is exaggerated. He just had the displeasure of being paired and being faster than the forums pet australian. <--- PERSONAL OPINION.

Posted: **25 Dec 2012, 21:04**

DonTirri wrote:EDIT: I also think that the Red Bull favoring Vettel crap is exaggerated. He just had the displeasure of being paired and being faster than the forums pet australian. <--- PERSONAL OPINION.

Oh, I agree with that too. I just prefer him to Vettel, that's all.

Posted: **25 Dec 2012, 23:35**

I find the best way to look at it all is to not really favour any driver at the end of the day. They all have their desirable factors, and also their downsides.

People need to pull their heads out of the sand, and I don't direct this at anyone specifically on this forum, I'm generalising F1 fans as a whole, when it comes to favourite drivers and the like. Be realistic, see the facts for what they are and accept them. That goes for both ends of the spectrum - the fanboys who are blinded by a love for a driver and the haters for whom some drivers can do nothing right regardless.

Posted: **26 Dec 2012, 00:08**

CarlosFerreira wrote:
Phoenix wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:How Kimi seems more welcome in F1 than Schumacher is something I'll never understand. And before someone accuses me of being a Schu-fan, I want to make it clear I don't really like the guy.

Well I do. Räikkönen is a rebel, free spirit kind of guy and that sits well with many people (probably because they're too scared to become that kind of people themselves). Michael Schumacher is just a cool teutonic MF who is often associated with cheating because of Australia '94, Jerez '97, Austria '02 or Monaco '06.

I definitely buy that answer - I think that's the reason. But allow me to look at it the other way: Michael Schumacher is a 7 times world champion, a man who lives and breathes racing, who loves F1 more than life himself. He is a multi-millionaire who, at the age of 40 or 41, found himself almost beheaded by Liuzzi's Force India in the last race of the season (Abu Dhabi, 2010) and came back for seconds next year. And the year after. I might not like The Schu, but by goodness I respect how much he loves F1. Kimi Raikkonen, on the other hand, is former Champion who dislikes the fans, routinely disrespects those who work with him, does not miss an opportunity to express how much he dislikes everything about F1, and actually bugger off to race Fiestas at one point.

I sometimes think F1 fans have a kind of Stockholm Syndrome when it comes to Raikkonen, a sort of "the more you hit me, the more I love you" attitude.

I don't really see Raikkonen as somebody who disrespects the fans, just as somebody who would prefer to drive the car and then go home. He doesn't give a shite either way, and that tends to have the effect of polarising people. Personally, I really like him - you obviously don't, and I suspect it's for the same reasons.

As for Schumacher, I was probably the only person in the world that didn't want to see him come back. Ironically, I did used to support him back in 2006 - that was because I missed most of his dominance due to living in Canada and without access to the coverage, and when I came back it was Alonso the dominant driver. I appreciate that he wanted to come back for the sheer thrill of it, and I enjoyed that he was far more open to the media at Mercedes than he ever was at Ferrari, but it just rankled with me for some reason. Then he struggled massively against Rosberg, who I never thought was that great of a driver, and he made mistakes. Tons of mistakes, and then there was Hungary 2010, which was frankly one of the most disgraceful things I've seen in my life. All while he was taking up a seat that could've easily gone to another driver who would've likely been more competitive. Pretty much the same reason a lot of us railed against Liuzzi in, and against Massa for most of the last 3 years, and against di Resta now. That's probably why his comeback was less popular - there were the occasional great performances, but they were never more than occasional. And they'd get mixed up with all the failures - too many failures for someone of his caliber and experience. Raikkonen, though, was more or less up to speed straight away, and though there might've been a cobweb or too, he wasn't constantly making a fool of himself on the track.

I never thought Schumacher was tainting his legacy though - that's already set in stone. Nobody will ever forget the 7 world championships, 91 Grand Prix wins, and countless brilliant drives, things that make him arguably the greatest driver who has ever lived.

BaconLettuceNinja wrote:
kostas22 wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:routinely disrespects those who work with him

Uh, what? I'm sorry, I didn't realise you had a job at Enstone. Oh, wait, you don't? Well, where's the evidence you're using to back this claim?

Your attitude towards him is ignorance. I'm not defending Kimi Raikkonen here anymore, I'm defending his attitude. Just because he's not all happy smiley means he's a bad person? Just because he has a cold exterior, it automatically makes him a bad person?

This is why I dislike people like you. You just don't get it. This is why I spend my life marginalised by society, just because I have to put up with people who expect me to be happy about every f***ing thing on this earth.

I've had it with this now. It's not about Kimi anymore. Those attacks clearly weren't directed at me, but they're offensive to me, and I've had enough of tolerating them.

Kostas, you're a man who doesn't beat around the bush. And I respect that massively.

As do I. The world needs people who are willing to speak their mind.

Posted: **26 Dec 2012, 10:14**

I'll keep this short but to the point:

We all have our favourites and we all have the ones we love to hate. At the end of the day, each and every driver deserves our RESPECT for what they do. If you don't like a particular driver, but respect what they do, there will never be a problem. If you don't respect Raikkonen, Schumacher, Vettel etc then there something wrong with you. Sure Raikkonen can be the polar opposite of what you expect an F1 driver to be, Vettel may be too smug at times and Schumacher's history with Hill, JV etc will always be remembered, but you have to look past that and remember what they put themselves through for nearly two hours every other Sunday. from the title-contenders right down to the struggling backmarkers, all are doing something amazing. And that will always deserve our respect.

Posted: **26 Dec 2012, 12:06**

AdrianSutil wrote:We all have our favourites and we all have the ones we love to hate. At the end of the day, each and every driver deserves our RESPECT for what they do. If you don't like a particular driver, but respect what they do, there will never be a problem. If you don't respect Raikkonen, Schumacher, Vettel etc then there something wrong with you. Sure Raikkonen can be the polar opposite of what you expect an F1 driver to be, Vettel may be too smug at times and Schumacher's history with Hill, JV etc will always be remembered, but you have to look past that and remember what they put themselves through for nearly two hours every other Sunday. from the title-contenders right down to the struggling backmarkers, all are doing something amazing. And that will always deserve our respect.

This.

Moving on: I rate JEV better than Ricciardo. Problem is, I'm not even sure why.

Posted: **26 Dec 2012, 15:36**

The Red Bull Young Driver Programme is ruining the prospects of rookies in F1. It takes drivers who could do well with better equipment, shunts them into a pile of garbage car, and expects them to work miracles because of the Vettel comparison. Until Red Bull takes STR seriously again and funds it properly, it does not matter how many new drivers they put in their "junior team", none of them will amount to anything because their reputation will have been tarnished by their F1 stint.

I hope for his own sake that Antonio Felix da Costa takes Red Bull's money in the lower formulae, then cuts and runs to a better F1 team.

Posted: **26 Dec 2012, 15:53**

CarlosFerreira wrote:Moving on: I rate JEV better than Ricciardo. Problem is, I'm not even sure why.

Think I'm also having same kind of LoveJEV-disease as you, because I cheer for him in my mind and I really don't have any idea why I do that. For other drivers I like, I can present multiple rational reasons why I like those guys, but not even any irrational reason for the Frenchman.

I might thus be biased (and willing to admit it), but I do reckon he's quite underrated - especially in comparison with Ricciardo (see Enoch's otherwise-good 2012 driver ratings). People always remember to mention Daniel's unlucks, coulda shoulda woulda, but it's mostly forgotten that JEV's season wasn't especially trouble-free either...and he eventually collected more points in his tally than his teammate.

Posted: **26 Dec 2012, 16:24**

giraurd wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:Moving on: I rate JEV better than Ricciardo. Problem is, I'm not even sure why.

Think I'm also having same kind of LoveJEV-disease as you, because I cheer for him in my mind and I really don't have any idea why I do that. For other drivers I like, I can present multiple rational reasons why I like those guys, but not even any irrational reason for the Frenchman.

I might thus be biased (and willing to admit it), but I do reckon he's quite underrated - especially in comparison with Ricciardo (see Enoch's otherwise-good 2012 driver ratings). People always remember to mention Daniel's unlucks, coulda shoulda woulda, but it's mostly forgotten that JEV's season wasn't especially trouble-free either...and he eventually collected more points in his tally than his teammate.

That's kind of my reasoning about him as well. I also like the fact that he seems at all unconcerned about sharing a garage with a guy who's widely tipped to be the Next Big Thing. Gallic shrug at its best.

Posted: **27 Dec 2012, 14:44**

kostas22 wrote:The Red Bull Young Driver Programme is ruining the prospects of rookies in F1. It takes drivers who could do well with better equipment, shunts them into a pile of garbage car, and expects them to work miracles because of the Vettel comparison. Until Red Bull takes STR seriously again and funds it properly, it does not matter how many new drivers they put in their "junior team", none of them will amount to anything because their reputation will have been tarnished by their F1 stint.

I hope for his own sake that Antonio Felix da Costa takes Red Bull's money in the lower formulae, then cuts and runs to a better F1 team.

On the whole, the Red Bull Young Driver Programme has been a bit of a waste of money really, IMO. I mean, look at all the drivers that have come and driven for Toro Rosso since the teams inception, or graduated to F1 with Red Bull backing, and you begin to see some less-than-legendary names. The likes of Bernoldi, Klien, Friesacher, Doornbos, Liuzzi and Speed all came up with Red Bull help, and of all the drivers that Red Bull have supported (and accordind to the Red Bull Junior Team wiki page, theres about 20 of them), only one has managed to make it to the podium in F1, let alone become stars.

Posted: **27 Dec 2012, 15:07**

takagi_for_the_win wrote:
kostas22 wrote:The Red Bull Young Driver Programme is ruining the prospects of rookies in F1. It takes drivers who could do well with better equipment, shunts them into a pile of garbage car, and expects them to work miracles because of the Vettel comparison. Until Red Bull takes STR seriously again and funds it properly, it does not matter how many new drivers they put in their "junior team", none of them will amount to anything because their reputation will have been tarnished by their F1 stint.

I hope for his own sake that Antonio Felix da Costa takes Red Bull's money in the lower formulae, then cuts and runs to a better F1 team.

On the whole, the Red Bull Young Driver Programme has been a bit of a waste of money really, IMO. I mean, look at all the drivers that have come and driven for Toro Rosso since the teams inception, or graduated to F1 with Red Bull backing, and you begin to see some less-than-legendary names. The likes of Bernoldi, Klien, Friesacher, Doornbos, Liuzzi and Speed all came up with Red Bull help, and of all the drivers that Red Bull have supported (and accordind to the Red Bull Junior Team wiki page, theres about 20 of them), only one has managed to make it to the podium in F1, let alone become stars.

Apparently Karthikeyan was in the Red Bull junior team? Who knew?

Posted: **27 Dec 2012, 15:10**

takagi_for_the_win wrote:
kostas22 wrote:The Red Bull Young Driver Programme is ruining the prospects of rookies in F1. It takes drivers who could do well with better equipment, shunts them into a pile of garbage car, and expects them to work miracles because of the Vettel comparison. Until Red Bull takes STR seriously again and funds it properly, it does not matter how many new drivers they put in their "junior team", none of them will amount to anything because their reputation will have been tarnished by their F1 stint.

I hope for his own sake that Antonio Felix da Costa takes Red Bull's money in the lower formulae, then cuts and runs to a better F1 team.

On the whole, the Red Bull Young Driver Programme has been a bit of a waste of money really, IMO. I mean, look at all the drivers that have come and driven for Toro Rosso since the teams inception, or graduated to F1 with Red Bull backing, and you begin to see some less-than-legendary names. The likes of Bernoldi, Klien, Friesacher, Doornbos, Liuzzi and Speed all came up with Red Bull help, and of all the drivers that Red Bull have supported (and accordind to the Red Bull Junior Team wiki page, theres about 20 of them), only one has managed to make it to the podium in F1, let alone become stars.

And that one particular driver was already long earmarked out for the parent team by Marko, so to a certain extent it was a fait accomplit when he did join them in the end.

It's true that Red Bull have managed to get a number of drivers into F1, but much of their efforts have come across as a case of quantity over quality (their Wikipedia page suggests that Narain Karthikeyan was, at one point, a Red Bull Junior Team driver, which speaks volumes about their choices in the past). The list of former and current Red Bull Junior Team drivers is pretty exhaustive and seems to be much longer than most other teams, although it is debatable whether that has been all that effective.

After all, the Red Bull outfit has been going since 2001 - by comparison, Ferrari have only been operating their driver academy since 2009, with just seven drivers going through that scheme, but two of those are already in F1 (Perez, now on his way to McLaren and leaving Ferrari's program, and Bianchi, currently just a test driver but in with a strong chance of a front line seat at Force India).

Posted: **27 Dec 2012, 23:20**

With Senna likely to be gone this makes me wonder who everyone will constantly hate on next year. I may sound like a hypocrite here but at least I am capable of independent thought.

And I have put in an effort to not say anything about the F1 drivers I dislike recently

Posted: **28 Dec 2012, 03:39**

eurobrun wrote:With Senna likely to be gone this makes me wonder who everyone will constantly hate on next year. I may sound like a hypocrite here but at least I am capable of independent thought.

And I have put in an effort to not say anything about the F1 drivers I dislike recently

Whoever wastes their equipment the most, I suspect. That was the case with Massa, Senna, and Schumacher. So probably di Resta now.

Posted: **28 Dec 2012, 04:59**

eurobrun wrote:With Senna likely to be gone this makes me wonder who everyone will constantly hate on next year. I may sound like a hypocrite here but at least I am capable of independent thought.

There's always gonna be Vettel. Or Ecclestone. Or Marko. Or Di Montezemolo. Hate never stops. Embrace the hate! Hate! HATE! MUAHAHAHAHA! :twisted:

While I am already here: yesterday my internet broke down on me so I did the obvious thing: despair and consider suicide. Just kidding, of course, I watched TV - Law & Order, amongst many other shows. There I was hoping for the classic intro but instead got something completely different. While it wasn't bad (it was a song by Rob Dougan and songs by Rob Dougan are always awesome) it begs the question >WHY.jpg

Perhaps I ought to talk about racing actually: if Caterham doesn't finally catch up to the midfield this year, they are going to end up as the biggest joke in recent F1 history.

Posted: **28 Dec 2012, 17:12**

Klon wrote:Perhaps I ought to talk about racing actually: if Caterham doesn't finally catch up to the midfield this year, they are going to end up as the biggest joke in recent F1 history.

No, they aren't. Look at Honda 2007/2008. And the biggest joke was pulling out of F1 just before they finally had a championship winning car.

Posted: **28 Dec 2012, 18:14**

pi314159 wrote:
Klon wrote:Perhaps I ought to talk about racing actually: if Caterham doesn't finally catch up to the midfield this year, they are going to end up as the biggest joke in recent F1 history.

No, they aren't. Look at Honda 2007/2008. And the biggest joke was pulling out of F1 just before they finally had a championship winning car.

Surely it's quite impossible another joke biggest than the one that pi314159 mentioned.

Posted: **29 Dec 2012, 03:12**

pi314159 wrote:
Klon wrote:Perhaps I ought to talk about racing actually: if Caterham doesn't finally catch up to the midfield this year, they are going to end up as the biggest joke in recent F1 history.
No, they aren't. Look at Honda 2007/2008. And the biggest joke was pulling out of F1 just before they finally had a championship winning car.

To be fair Honda probably didn't know how good their car would be.

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