Grand Prix Rejects

DonTirri wrote:

Captain Hammer wrote:Doesn't matter; he has experience. He's not totally unfamiliar with thsort, even if it was twenty years ago. And that gives him an edge. There's a big difference between being a driver and being a team owner, and Adrian Campos has had more success with the latter than with the former.

But being an Ex-driver doesn't mean you'll be a succesfull team owner.

Super Aguri or Prost ring a bell?

Neither Aguri or Prost ran a team in the lower categories. Campos has. And, I might add, he's had a lot of success with it.

Pardon the double-post, but there's some breaking news: Lola have withdrawn their entry.

Damn it, I guess they coudn't be doing with hanging around. A bit like Mastercard then.

Captain Hammer wrote:Pardon the double-post, but there's some breaking news: Lola have withdrawn their entry.

Fair enough, the separation of the wheat from the chaff starts. Of all the DNPQs for the season, Lola was probably the most serious.

While they've withdrawn their entry application, I don't see the bit where they say they've stopped working on the car. If everything goes south and some of the more far-fetched teams end up having to compete, I can see Mr. Birrane being only to happy to supply the hardware. At the right price, mind.

Jordan192 wrote:While they've withdrawn their entry application, I don't see the bit where they say they've stopped working on the car. If everything goes south and some of the more far-fetched teams end up having to compete, I can see Mr. Birrane being only to happy to supply the hardware. At the right price, mind.

Actually, I expect some of the new entrants might want to outsource some of their production/development. And if indeed something happens, the world starts rolling backwards and there is a break up, there will be a lot of people trying to buy that sort of thing. On the other hand, Lola could become a consultancy and develop materials/concepts for budget capped teams. It's amazing, the possibilities.

Sorry to hear that. Lola would have made a great addition to the grid.
I agree that with their level of expertise they will still be a welcome contractor in the series, and maybe they will enter in one of the coming years even.

CarlosFerreira wrote:

Jordan192 wrote:While they've withdrawn their entry application, I don't see the bit where they say they've stopped working on the car. If everything goes south and some of the more far-fetched teams end up having to compete, I can see Mr. Birrane being only to happy to supply the hardware. At the right price, mind.

Actually, I expect some of the new entrants might want to outsource some of their production/development. And if indeed something happens, the world starts rolling backwards and there is a break up, there will be a lot of people trying to buy that sort of thing. On the other hand, Lola could become a consultancy and develop materials/concepts for budget capped teams. It's amazing, the possibilities.

That's getting awfully close to the dreaded "customer car" isn't it? Maybe they could outsource some stuff but they can't supply a whole car because the rules forbid it, right? Or maybe they can make the whole car as a "partner", but only supply it to 1 team. I'm not 100% on the rules on that one.

BB01 wrote:Or maybe they can make the whole car as a "partner", but only supply it to 1 team.

^This.^

Lola and Dallara both did it during the 90s with Scuderia Italia, and it's the same kind of relationship between Manor and Wirth Research. I also seem to recall hearing something about Campos getting Dallara to do the car for them, though I might be confusing that with Campos currently running Dallara chassis elsewhere.

The natural fit for Lola would seem to be Prodrive, if they were to get a second-wave entry. But the naming row over the LMP1 probably burnt a few too many bridges for that to happen.

Yes, Campos are outsourcing to Dallara. In fact, I believe a lot of early research on the Ferrari F60 was done by the same group.

Captain Hammer wrote:

DonTirri wrote:

Captain Hammer wrote:Doesn't matter; he has experience. He's not totally unfamiliar with thsort, even if it was twenty years ago. And that gives him an edge. There's a big difference between being a driver and being a team owner, and Adrian Campos has had more success with the latter than with the former.

But being an Ex-driver doesn't mean you'll be a succesfull team owner.

Super Aguri or Prost ring a bell?

Neither Aguri or Prost ran a team in the lower categories. Campos has. And, I might add, he's had a lot of success with it.

In fact, Super Aguri has run teams in Formula Nippon and IRL, and probably others as well, though I'm not sure how, if at all, those count as 'lower formula categories'...

Captain Hammer wrote:

DonTirri wrote:

Captain Hammer wrote:Doesn't matter; he has experience. He's not totally unfamiliar with thsort, even if it was twenty years ago. And that gives him an edge. There's a big difference between being a driver and being a team owner, and Adrian Campos has had more success with the latter than with the former.

But being an Ex-driver doesn't mean you'll be a succesfull team owner.

Super Aguri or Prost ring a bell?

Neither Aguri or Prost ran a team in the lower categories. Campos has. And, I might add, he's had a lot of success with it.

Well running a team in the lower categories doesnt mean success either. For every success like Jordan there is a total failure such as *insert a late 80's or early 90's reject team here*

Faustus wrote:

Captain Hammer wrote:

Very interesting news!
I am actually glad to see Prodrive rejected. Not seeing Lola on the list is a surprise, although maybe they'll associate themselves with Manor or Campos.

That's right. If forgot you were the leader of the Anti-Dave Club.

I certainly am! Do you want to join the club?

Please, sign me up.

DonTirri wrote:Well running a team in the lower categories doesnt mean success either. For every success like Jordan there is a total failure such as *insert a late 80's or early 90's reject team here*

Running a team in the lower categories with some success counts for more than not running a team at all until you get to Formula One.

Captain Hammer wrote:

DonTirri wrote:Well running a team in the lower categories doesnt mean success either. For every success like Jordan there is a total failure such as *insert a late 80's or early 90's reject team here*

Running a team in the lower categories with some success counts for more than not running a team at all until you get to Formula One.

Exactly my thoughts, and why I believed Campos was one of the strongest contestants.

Shouldn't we all just be celebrating the fact that we have some new teams in Formula 1?

I think that the entries of US F1, despite my own reservations about it, and Campos are well deserved (I'm particularly pleased about Campos). Manor snuck in under the radar, and I don't know enough about them to comment yet.

As for some of the entries who didn't make it, I think Lola could still be in with a chance, even though they say that they are withdrawing their entry, as there is no guarantee that all the existing teams will be on the grid even if agreement is reached on the budget cap. For the same reasons, Prodrive may still also have a shout.

Overall, it's a breath of fresh air to have some new teams in my opinion, and it's nice to see that they are all independents. Independents are the life blood of F1, so more of them a needed to restore the balance to a sport which is currently dominated by manufacturers.

Irisado wrote:Shouldn't we all just be celebrating the fact that we have some new teams in Formula 1?

I think that the entries of US F1...

Problem is, if FOTA/FIA ends the ways it seems, there only will be US F1 and YOU F1 (I don't know... Yemen Oil United F1).

Popi_Larrauri wrote:Problem is, if FOTA/FIA ends the ways it seems, there only will be US F1 and YOU F1 (I don't know... Yemen Oil United F1).

There will be no breakaway series in my view (see Captain Hammer's thread on this subject for my reasoning), so there is no need to worry about this .

Irisado wrote:

Popi_Larrauri wrote:Problem is, if FOTA/FIA ends the ways it seems, there only will be US F1 and YOU F1 (I don't know... Yemen Oil United F1).

There will be no breakaway series in my view (see Captain Hammer's thread on this subject for my reasoning), so there is no need to worry about this .

Sure, no worries. We all understand that, by all logic, there can't be a breakaway series. I'm just worried that common sense's vacations last much longer, and and TSHTF for good. I'm not celebrating new teams in F1 until I am sure there will be a F1 next year.

I read somewhere recently (I think it was an article on grandprix.com) that since the Cosworth engine is heavier and less fuel-efficient than the other engines, the weight penalty of additional fuel for a whole race distances and resultant handling compromises are estimated to cost the new teams 3-4 seconds per lap. It looks like we're going to have some bona fide backmarkers again if this is true.

midgrid wrote:I read somewhere recently (I think it was an article on grandprix.com) that since the Cosworth engine is heavier and less fuel-efficient than the other engines, the weight penalty of additional fuel for a whole race distances and resultant handling compromises are estimated to cost the new teams 3-4 seconds per lap. It looks like we're going to have some bona fide backmarkers again if this is true.

The thing about that is that it's the manufacturers who are saying it, so you can't really be sure if it's true. They'd probably be hurting that they couldn't extend their influence over the grid.

The new teams probably resent the fact that they are forced to use Cosworth engines. At least two teams that failed the entry are pissed because they didn't know about that.

Could the incredible fuel inefficiency and the increased weight be why the FIA raised the minimum weight of the cars?

I seriously doubt the FIA would force the teams to use the Cosworth if it was that bad.

Captain Hammer wrote:I seriously doubt the FIA would force the teams to use the Cosworth if it was that bad.

This. What's the point of getting new teams in Formula 1 if they're going to be stuck with a rubbish engine?

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:

Captain Hammer wrote:I seriously doubt the FIA would force the teams to use the Cosworth if it was that bad.

This. What's the point of getting new teams in Formula 1 if they're going to be stuck with a rubbish engine?

And it'snot just for one year. They're supposed to run a Coswoth for a minimum of three, based on the complaints about it.

A lot of the rumour that they're down on power hinges on the supposed belief that they're based on the engine Williams used in 2006. But the original plan was to allow Cosworth to develop an engine that could hit 20,000rpm, which they later agreed to restrict to 18,000. I'm pretty sure that the engine Williams used was dfferent to this one, because they were subject to an engine freeze at the time, and because the freeze still exists, they can't change it. I'm also reasonbly certain that as a manufacturer entering or re-entering the chapionship, Cosworth will be allowed to develop a new engine to fit the regulations. It simply has to be built to the same regulations that dictate the output of the Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault, Toyota and BMW engines.

Besides, Cosworth ran their on simulation after they announced that the engine would be rev-limited and claimed it could still compete. They'd say that, of course, since they're the ones building it, and you'd naturally expect them to be a little optimistic. But three to four seconds off the pace? They'd know that was a problem for sure, and they'd probably say "Look, we can't do this".

No wonder Prodrive are using a Merc engine...this Cosworth powerplant sounds awful.

kostas22 wrote:No wonder Prodrive are using a Merc engine...this Cosworth powerplant sounds awful.

What are you basing this off of?

Which part?
The Prodrive using Mercedes engines or the Cosworth engine being rubbish?

kostas22 wrote:Which part?
The Prodrive using Mercedes engines or the Cosworth engine being rubbish?

Cosworth being rubbish.

midgrid wrote:I read somewhere recently (I think it was an article on grandprix.com) that since the Cosworth engine is heavier and less fuel-efficient than the other engines, the weight penalty of additional fuel for a whole race distances and resultant handling compromises are estimated to cost the new teams 3-4 seconds per lap. It looks like we're going to have some bona fide backmarkers again if this is true.

That bit.

Not sure how if this is verified at all or not, but Paul Stoddart is saying that he will have a team on the grid in 2010 on 'his' twitter account.

http://twitter.com/PaulStoddart

Considering that he has ruled out Badoer as a test driver already, I think it is fairly certain that he will be racing for the team!

Maybe he has bought Sauber?

Nuppiz wrote:Maybe he has bought Sauber?

Yes, well that's the obvious candidate.

Maybe he has teamed up with the Malaysian Lotus entry, which was rumoured to be in the running to take over BMW. He does have a prior link with Malaysia from their sponsorship of Minardi in 2002.

Ed24 wrote:Not sure how if this is verified at all or not, but Paul Stoddart is saying that he will have a team on the grid in 2010 on 'his' twitter account.

http://twitter.com/PaulStoddart

Surprisingly obvious fake account

Ed24 wrote:

Nuppiz wrote:Maybe he has bought Sauber?

Yes, well that's the obvious candidate.

Maybe he has teamed up with the Malaysian Lotus entry, which was rumoured to be in the running to take over BMW. He does have a prior link with Malaysia from their sponsorship of Minardi in 2002.

And the next logical question is.... WHY?

Ed24 wrote:Not sure how if this is verified at all or not, but Paul Stoddart is saying that he will have a team on the grid in 2010 on 'his' twitter account.

http://twitter.com/PaulStoddart

Considering that he has ruled out Badoer as a test driver already, I think it is fairly certain that he will be racing for the team!

I'm calling BS. Stoddardt doesn't have a entry on the FIA shortlist (that we know of), and I'm reasonably certain the other teams would object to his being there after that stunt he pulled in Melbourne.

This information about Cosworth is just speculation. We won't have any idea about how the engine is performing until we get some testing times during the off season, and even then, winter testing is not a reliable means by which to judge car and engine performance. Comments saying 'it's rubbish', therefore, lack any substantial evidence to support them in my opinion. I think we will just have to wait and see.

Just seen this http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news/cars/396546/lola-unveils-2010-formula-1-car.html

Quite a positive development, and they've obviously learnt from last time

Valrys wrote:Just seen this http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news/cars/396546/lola-unveils-2010-formula-1-car.html

Quite a positive development, and they've obviously learnt from last time

I quite like the colour scheme but who the hell are they going to be able to find who can squeeze into it?