Grand Prix Rejects

eytl wrote:Pironi-Villeneuve, Imola 1982.

That's all I have to say.

I was there and attended a Ferrari dinner on the Sunday night, which the drivers didn't turn up to. I thought of that as well. We have to hope that its not going to be a repeat of that history. Maybe, Prost-Senna or Jones-Reutmann instead.

But I think this may be seen as Vettel's big mistake this year. Come the end of season when he needs a bit of teamate support he may come to heavily regret Malaysia. What goes around, comes around.

Seb may have won, but I think the odds for Kimi or Fernando just got a bit better.

eytl wrote:I should hasten to add though that I, like mario, am undecided about whether team orders are a good or bad thing, and frankly it doesn't matter because it's been a part of the sport since day dot ...

I thought Lewis on the podium was magnanimous and honest enough. Interesting to hear Brundle's speculation that Hamilton has effective no. 1 status within Mercedes. Not sure whether to believe that or not. Having said that I think Mercedes probably felt they owed Lewis that podium given the tactics they had employed during the race. Yes Nico was proving himself faster at various times but I got the impression Lewis was being sent out as the hare to get in amongst the Red Bulls. Hence the fact he pitted first each time to gain the undercut, and put in blistering lap times earlier in the stint when he could have preserved the tyres and fuel more.

Lewis was very statesmanlike. Good PR. Of course he wouldn't have had to feel so sorry, if he'd just waved Nico past ....................

Ross Prawn wrote:I was there and attended a Ferrari dinner on the Sunday night, which the drivers didn't turn up to. I thought of that as well. We have to hope that its not going to be a repeat of that history. Maybe, Prost-Senna or Jones-Reutmann instead.

But I think this may be seen as Vettel's big mistake this year. Come the end of season when he needs a bit of teamate support he may come to heavily regret Malaysia. What goes around, comes around.

Seb may have won, but I think the odds for Kimi or Fernando just got a bit better.

Oh, definitely. I'm not hoping for a repeat of Zolder '82. Or even Hockenheim '82 for that matter.

I thought about Jones-Reut (Rio '81) or even Arnoux-Prost (Paul Ricard '82), but both were situations when the lead driver was told to cede and for the cars to swap places. Which of course Barrichello-Schumacher (Austria '02) came close to replicating. Prost-Senna at Imola '89 isn't a comparison either because that was an agreement between the drivers over conduct at the "first" corner (whatever the definition of that was, and there's the rub), as opposed to a "hold station" order towards the end of the race.

But interesting point there about other drivers benefiting. Even more reason why Fernando would be kicking himself after the mess he made today.

rachel1990 wrote:If Mark had done what Vettel as done then he could have been fired from Red Bull.

But since its our 'beloved' Sebastian he will be told that it is fine and move on.
Double standards Christian?

Actually, no. Helmut Marko of all people sided with Webber on this one. Vettel's going to be taking some heat from the team.

rachel1990 wrote:If Mark had done what Vettel as done then he could have been fired from Red Bull.

If Mark had done what Vettel has done then he would have been worshiped for standing up to big bad Sebastian.

I see Vettel now has apologised to Webber and admitted his mistake but said that he didn't do it deliberately.

Just grow up. That sounds like the kind of thing my daughters (aged 3 and 4) would say.

And as my dear wife keeps reminding me, if you say "but" after "I'm sorry" you don't really mean the apology.

GwilymJJames wrote:

rachel1990 wrote:If Mark had done what Vettel as done then he could have been fired from Red Bull.

If Mark had done what Vettel has done then he would have been worshiped for standing up to big bad Sebastian.

Except he wouldn't have done so, because as Enoch has pointed out, Webber doesn't blatantly disregard what the team is telling him when he's told to hold position.

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:Except he wouldn't have done so, because as Enoch has pointed out, Webber doesn't blatantly disregard what the team is telling him when he's told to hold position.

Well ... there was Silverstone a few years ago which others have been alluding to. He disregarded the order to back off in that he caught right up to Vettel, to prove a point. But he didn't go so far as to break the order by actually passing Seb.

Didn't break the order, but not for lack of trying.
He went for it, which essentialy is the same. imo

lgaquino wrote:Didn't break the order, but not for lack of trying.
He went for it, which essentialy is the same. imo

Was he trying though? Did he actually make an attempt to pass Vettel?

Ross Prawn wrote:

eytl wrote:I should hasten to add though that I, like mario, am undecided about whether team orders are a good or bad thing, and frankly it doesn't matter because it's been a part of the sport since day dot ...

I thought Lewis on the podium was magnanimous and honest enough. Interesting to hear Brundle's speculation that Hamilton has effective no. 1 status within Mercedes. Not sure whether to believe that or not. Having said that I think Mercedes probably felt they owed Lewis that podium given the tactics they had employed during the race. Yes Nico was proving himself faster at various times but I got the impression Lewis was being sent out as the hare to get in amongst the Red Bulls. Hence the fact he pitted first each time to gain the undercut, and put in blistering lap times earlier in the stint when he could have preserved the tyres and fuel more.

Lewis was very statesmanlike. Good PR. Of course he wouldn't have had to feel so sorry, if he'd just waved Nico past ....................

There is that aspect, and you have to wonder whether Mercedes might have been better off allowing Rosberg through to attack the Red Bull drivers given that both drivers were worried about tyre wear and Hamilton couldn't push because he was so short on fuel.
That said, Hamilton does seem to be handling this in a fairly sensible manner - his comments about Rosberg should help to calm the situation at Mercedes down, so the longer term repercussions are probably going to be more limited by comparison. Vettel's comments that he did not deliberately pass Webber in those closing stages, despite the fact that Horner and Marko have publicly countermanded that and said that Vettel was repeatedly instructed to hold position, is probably only going to make matters worse within the team (both on Mark's side of the garage, since that is likely to only anger him further, and I imagine that the senior management won't appreciate Vettel's comments either).

lgaquino wrote:Didn't break the order, but not for lack of trying.
He went for it, which essentialy is the same. imo

Webber did eventually back down on that issue, but in a way that signalled his displeasure and that he felt he was the faster driver (that moment where he backed off from Vettel by about a second before promptly closing the gap right up again with a very fast lap). He did signal his intentions before the team intervened, and did then continue to pressurise Vettel quite heavily, but just about held back from disobeying.
Whether that was because he chose to obey the order, or simply couldn't pass Vettel (given Silverstone is not the easiest track to make a passing move anyway due to its high speed nature) is a little ambiguous - it's a bit of a grey area to some extent, but I suppose that he just about got away with it because he did ultimately comply with the order, albeit clearly unwillingly.

Despite the fact that Vettel was clearly trying to ovetake Webber against team orders, Webber seemd very aggressive in pushing him towards the pit wall. One false move, and it could've ended in catastrophe.

mario wrote:That said, Hamilton does seem to be handling this in a fairly sensible manner - his comments about Rosberg should help to calm the situation at Mercedes down, so the longer term repercussions are probably going to be more limited by comparison.

And Rosberg's post-race comment, whilst cheesy publicocrap, by comparison is also showing that Mercedes, Ross Brawn, Lewis and Nico have handled the situation with a lot more class.

mario wrote:Whether that was because he chose to obey the order, or simply couldn't pass Vettel (given Silverstone is not the easiest track to make a passing move anyway due to its high speed nature) is a little ambiguous - it's a bit of a grey area to some extent, but I suppose that he just about got away with it because he did ultimately comply with the order, albeit clearly unwillingly.

Bingo. That ambiguity meant Mark did pretty much get away with that whereas Seb has no avenue to get away with today's events.

EDIT: Never mind it was Silverstone 2011. Still, Webber was open about not obeying that order so at least Vettel could defend.

Guys, please help me. What did Webber say to Newey and Vettel when he returned to the drivers room after the race?

solarcold wrote:Guys, please help me. What did Webber say to Newey and Vettel when he returned to the drivers room after the race?

20-21 - it means hold station

I love intra-team wars. That, is all.

Just hope Webber keeps up the pace so we might see some great action later in the season

Vettel is classless. He did not follow orders and later says it wasn't deliberate.. are you kidding me.. how on earth can you like this person.

Jules Bianchi another great drive and has got 13th already, I can see him get 11th or 12th at some point and if things do go extremely well may even get a point. Marussia genuinely do have a tidy car now

eytl wrote:

mario wrote:That said, Hamilton does seem to be handling this in a fairly sensible manner - his comments about Rosberg should help to calm the situation at Mercedes down, so the longer term repercussions are probably going to be more limited by comparison.

And Rosberg's post-race comment, whilst cheesy publicocrap, by comparison is also showing that Mercedes, Ross Brawn, Lewis and Nico have handled the situation with a lot more class.

mario wrote:Whether that was because he chose to obey the order, or simply couldn't pass Vettel (given Silverstone is not the easiest track to make a passing move anyway due to its high speed nature) is a little ambiguous - it's a bit of a grey area to some extent, but I suppose that he just about got away with it because he did ultimately comply with the order, albeit clearly unwillingly.

Bingo. That ambiguity meant Mark did pretty much get away with that whereas Seb has no avenue to get away with today's events.

The big difference between Red Bull and Mercedes is that al least, Lewis said in public that Nico deserved that third place. He was in a position where he couldn't do anything. Worst case scenario, by letting Nico chase the Bulls, Nico could've cooked his tires, lost performance and force him to pit late, just like Checo and lost that 4th against a Massa that simply flew in the latter part. Yes, a little bit cheesy for the Merc boys, but that showed maturity.
The Bulls, instead, pull a tantrum in between them and just add fuel to the fire. Prepare for the inevitable intra-war team, and hopefully, that will unleash Mark Webber's inner fury that was contained all these years in favor of Das Wunderkind.

I feel that Webber should have tried to regain his lead from Vettel, but maybe his tires weren't that good anymore. Other than that, it's probably time to bring out the popcorn.

As for Mercedes, at least they were blunt in their intentions. It wasn't fine for Rosberg, but I'm sure that he'll be in a similar position to Lewis' pretty soon. In the moment, Mercedes as a team needs good results, and a 3-4, plus being able to go with the pace of Red Bulls are encouraging enough. After all, the team needs to convince the Board of Mercedes to keep funding them.

I didn't understand the need for team orders in this race, to be honest. A wide track, the second race of the season...

But if there are team orders, then the driver has to follow them. On the balance, even a "devil may care" attitude from Vettel ("I was much faster than him and I thought that the Mercedes could catch us, so I decided to pass") would have been better than this "I'm sorry" thing.

GwilymJJames wrote:It's weird this cos I was always under the impression that team orders were bad.

Only when the guy you'd like to see win gets shafted. Had it been the other way around, teh Internetz would erupt in support for Webber for violating team orders.

I think the solution is to sack Christian Horner. Replace him with someone that is made of stronger stuff. My example in the ROTR thread for example, is what should be happening. David Richards wouldn't have let such an occurence unfold. Red Bull have let Vettel's ego have too much breathing space, and now he thinks the team is working for him, rather than the other way around.

Stramala [kostas22] wrote:I think the solution is to sack Christian Horner. Replace him with someone that is made of stronger stuff. My example in the ROTR thread for example, is what should be happening. David Richards wouldn't have let such an occurence unfold. Red Bull have let Vettel's ego have too much breathing space, and now he thinks the team is working for him, rather than the other way around.

Do you by any chance mean the same David Richards who the late Colin McRae almost ran over in a connection between stages in Catalonia, 1995?

That was quite a good race, in my opinion. Lots of reliability problems, rain and intra-team antics always makes things interesting. I am stunned that Red Bull has not gotten their driver management worked out by now. We knew that Vettel and Webber have been at each other's throats since 2010, yet Christian Horner and Red Bull management have not done anything to assuage the problem in three years. Every season we have the same media frenzy over whether Webber is being treated unfairly. This business must be incredibly frustrating for Webber, as he has just a few chances to ever win a world title and he needs every point he can get. Then again, it's not like Webber has earned any sympathy from Sebastian, especially considering how frosty the two have been since Turkey 2010. Also, it is quite unfair to say that Vettel is on an egomaniacal power trip when he was simply trying to win the race. I seem to remember Michael Schumacher or Fernando Alonso doing that multiple times and no one questioned their moral integrity.

Other than that, I hope the FIA will start dishing out some fines for all the pit lane shenanigans from today. That Caterham/STR collision was idiotic and Sauber nearly took out Raikkonen at the end.

Stramala [kostas22] wrote:I think the solution is to sack Christian Horner. Replace him with someone that is made of stronger stuff. My example in the ROTR thread for example, is what should be happening. David Richards wouldn't have let such an occurence unfold. Red Bull have let Vettel's ego have too much breathing space, and now he thinks the team is working for him, rather than the other way around.

You make a very good point. What today's episode really shows is that Red Bull's policy over the last few years of "we treat the drivers equally and they are free to race but really, whilst it is unspoken (although anyone with eyes can see it from a mile away), we really love Seb and he's our golden boy" is coming home to roost. When you say one thing but in your heart of hearts you really mean another, and Seb knows it, then he feels as though he has the latitude to do what he wants with impunity.

I said this in the race review after Turkey 2010, I'm pretty sure. If you're going to have favouritism, either structurally, or in terms of a particular race, just be up front about it. None of this each-way-bet stuff.

tristan1117 wrote:Also, it is quite unfair to say that Vettel is on an egomaniacal power trip when he was simply trying to win the race. I seem to remember Michael Schumacher or Fernando Alonso doing that multiple times and no one questioned their moral integrity.

Well, Schumacher's moral integrity was already shot after Jerez 1997.

tristan1117 wrote:Other than that, I hope the FIA will start dishing out some fines for all the pit lane shenanigans from today. That Caterham/STR collision was idiotic and Sauber nearly took out Raikkonen at the end.

I do not know whether Sauber are being investigated, but it has been confirmed that Toro Rosso are being fined €10,000 for their unsafe release - Vergne is not being punished, however, on the basis that it was the fault of the team for not warning him that somebody was pulling into their pit box, so he keeps his point for 10th place.

i would not be surprised if Webber quits......

CarlosFerreira wrote:

GwilymJJames wrote:It's weird this cos I was always under the impression that team orders were bad.

Only when the guy you'd like to see win gets shafted. Had it been the other way around, teh Internetz would erupt in support for Webber for violating team orders.

My thoughts precisely. Webber would have to start killing puppies (and a lot of them too) to be even one bit as unpopular as Vettel, which naturally impacts on how their misdemeanours are viewed. But such is the nature of following sport, I suppose.

I do get the impression this is Vettel spraying his territory. "I'm the Alpha male, Webber is my bitch. That is the order of things."

Enforcer wrote:

CarlosFerreira wrote:

GwilymJJames wrote:It's weird this cos I was always under the impression that team orders were bad.

Only when the guy you'd like to see win gets shafted. Had it been the other way around, teh Internetz would erupt in support for Webber for violating team orders.

My thoughts precisely. Webber would have to start killing puppies (and a lot of them too) to be even one bit as unpopular as Vettel, which naturally impacts on how their misdemeanours are viewed. But such is the nature of following sport, I suppose.

Nope. All Webber would have to do is be a bad winner like Vettel is. And, you know, taking the win off your teammate in a Imola 1982-esque fashion doesn't help endear yourself to people who aren't already your fans.

Enforcer wrote:

CarlosFerreira wrote:

GwilymJJames wrote:It's weird this cos I was always under the impression that team orders were bad.

Only when the guy you'd like to see win gets shafted. Had it been the other way around, teh Internetz would erupt in support for Webber for violating team orders.

My thoughts precisely. Webber would have to start killing puppies (and a lot of them too) to be even one bit as unpopular as Vettel, which naturally impacts on how their misdemeanours are viewed.

Or even - Lord forbid - star winning races and championships. That would screw his popularity.

CarlosFerreira wrote:

Enforcer wrote:

CarlosFerreira wrote:Only when the guy you'd like to see win gets shafted. Had it been the other way around, teh Internetz would erupt in support for Webber for violating team orders.

My thoughts precisely. Webber would have to start killing puppies (and a lot of them too) to be even one bit as unpopular as Vettel, which naturally impacts on how their misdemeanours are viewed.

Or even - Lord forbid - star winning races and championships. That would screw his popularity.

Not if he kept telling it like it is.

I actually think Webber could do well out of all this. Much of his best races from 2010 were emotionally charged when he felt the team were against him and in Vettel's court, so maybe this could spur him on to some of his best performances such as Silverstone 2010.

Then again if I'd been in his shoes, I'd have just put Finger-boy in the wall and screw the team consequences.

Inter-team friction is good for the sport though. Gives things an edge. Really wish it wasn't 3 weeks until the next race!!

I think blaming the individuals for having a falling out after this race is a bit wide of the mark. It was a fascinating race where 4 nearly equal cars were in close contention and the winner was going to be whoever, got the complex fuel/tyre strategy right. The only problem with this was it reduced the race to a competition between the simulation departments in Milton Keynes and Brackley, with the drivers not being allowed to race, but merely being instructed as to what lap times to put in and when. There were bound to be problems when this elegant team strategy and simulation game conflicted with the inconvenient fact that drivers quite like to race each other and win races. So it was only a matter of who was going to be most unhappy at the end. In the end Seb was the villain, but the real cause of the problem was the mass of rules and restrictions that end up favouring strategy over racing.

That said, Mercedes handled the fallout with much more dignity and sense than Red Bull. Rosberg's attitude after the race might have been partly PR fodder, but it was still mature and balanced. I just think its a pity that Mercedes didn't feel free to keep hassling Red Bull up to the end of the race, there was a good chance of triggering another Turkey fiasco at Red Bull, if Hamilton and Rosberg could have taken turns in harrying the blue cars. But I guess 3 and 4th is good progress and there is a board to please at Mercedes.

James1978 wrote:I actually think Webber could do well out of all this. Much of his best races from 2010 were emotionally charged when he felt the team were against him and in Vettel's court, so maybe this could spur him on to some of his best performances such as Silverstone 2010.

(...)

Inter-team friction is good for the sport though. Gives things an edge. Really wish it wasn't 3 weeks until the next race!!

Absolutely.

That was on the dramatic side...

Mercedes looking good, Alonso and Ferrari oddly being a bit foolish, Button out-performing the car then being undone by another McLaren pit lane disaster, even *worse* pit lane disasters for Force India, pit lane collisions, a bit of rain early on...

But it's the Vettel - Webber incident that everyone will remember this race for, no doubt.

Say what you like about Vettel, but many great champions got there by being bastards. Senna would have done exactly the same thing, and people seem to adore him. I do feel very sorry for Webber, though, and hope he gets his own back.

Paul Hayes wrote:Say what you like about Vettel, but many great champions got there by being bastards. Senna would have done exactly the same thing, and people seem to adore him. I do feel very sorry for Webber, though, and hope he gets his own back.

It's a little bit frustrating, when you see these posts about how the fans should be ROTR because of double standards. I am absolutely not a hypocrite on this issue, I have disdain for Senna's underhanded tactics (especially Suzuka 1990), I didn't have a problem with Massa being told to move over for Alonso (in terms of the morality of it - rather, I was for punishing Ferrari as it was a rule breach, but the rule shouldn't have been there), and I do have a problem with this.

Schumacher was a complete dick for his entire career and won seven titles. I guess Vettel will act and receive the same.

BBC Highlights finished, here's a serious opinion: Red Bull's constant protection and favouritism of Vettel has done this. I frankly don't think even Jean Todt could have done anything to put a stop on Vettel, knowing that Marko was there to call the shots and ultimately overrule him. Contrast this with what happened in Mercedes, the conversation between Rosberg and Brawn, and you see something different. Can something like this make Mercedes a better contender, and Red Bull a worse one?

Seriously, will we remember this as the race where Mercedes' Championship campaign really started?