Grand Prix Rejects

Posted: **09 Jun 2014, 06:18**

Cynon wrote:I feel the same way. Hamilton is one of the biggest pieces of shite to ever step behind the wheel of a racecar... up there with Michael Waltrip.

Worse than Maldonado, a driver who left a marshal permanently crippled after running him over in a FR3.5 series race and, had PDVSA not reportedly paid off the marshal and the Automobile Club de Monaco, would have had a lifetime ban from racing in Monaco because of his recklessness? Hamilton does have a sizeable attitude problem, but when you compare that to a driver who has caused severe physical harm to somebody else, I'd argue that there have been far worse drivers.

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:
Dan B wrote:Different topic here. Anyone expecting Raikkonen to leave Ferrari early this year? Because if his performances don't start improving -such as today which was lazy if anything- I wouldn't be surprised to see him out of the team or even F1 altogether.

They gave Massa years of extra chances, I'd expect the same for Raikkonen when he's sometimes on the back of Alonso as opposed to never.

Assuming that Kimi wants to take those chances - given that Ferrari are not that competitive and that most other teams seem to have fairly stable line ups for the foreseeable future, I can see a disenchanted Kimi choosing to leave F1 and to go elsewhere given that his options to move into a winning car are limited.

Posted: **09 Jun 2014, 06:44**

Cynon wrote:Re-watching this race with the British commentary, and it's easy to believe why people think F1 is more boring with the British feed.

Holy crap the UK commentary team sounds bored, except for Crofty.

Edit: They also like making up pronunciations for names -- like Q-Beck.

Think yourself lucky, I sat through the BBC's awful pre race build up...

On another note, does anybody think Force India will appeal the penalty decision?

Posted: **09 Jun 2014, 09:17**

Not a Red Bull fan but so delighted with Danny's win.

The amount of press here about the victory here down under is unbelievable. Pretty much every news service has mentioned it, papers tomorrow (race was 3am on Monday here!) will be similar.

Posted: **09 Jun 2014, 09:46**

Has to be said great race all round, tonnes of action, strategising, drivers out-performing machinery. Pity it ended the way it did as that accident was nasty

Posted: **09 Jun 2014, 11:07**

OK, so this was the kind of race that would tempt me to go to the effort of writing a race review, there was so much going on and so much to say, but these days time simply does not permit it. But here are some of the things I would be saying ...

Canada: if only every second race could take place at the Circuit Gilles Villeneuve. There is something about this place, with its close walls, its layout, and the strains that it places on engines and brakes that more often than not gives us something against the grain of the rest of the season, and more craziness than four or five other races combined. And unusual winners as well ... like Thierry Boutsen in 1989, Jean Alesi in 1995, Robert Kubica in 2008, and Daniel Ricciardo today. I was thinking, Montreal is probably the closest we get these days to a circuit like the old Hockenheim - flat out blasts broken by chicanes and the odd hairpin. I mean, Spa, Suzuka and Silverstone are classic circuits especially for their high-speed sweeping corners which are particularly a test for aero, but I do like how Montreal is a test for the more mechanical elements - how well you can power a car, and how well you can stop it.

Daniel Ricciardo: brilliant - and ever so fitting that Australia gains its 4th Grand Prix winner at the start of a week in which the nation will farewell Sir Jack Brabham in a state funeral in Queensland. His drive is all the better for having started 6th and having to play the patient game for much of the race, pouncing when the opportunities arose. So many other drivers in this race squandered opportunities. Having squandered his in Q3, he made sure he didn't do the same in the race. It wasn't just the pass on a wounded Rosberg for the win, it was the move on Perez when the chance presented himself. And, perhaps even more crucially, managing to get ahead of Vettel and Bottas at the second stops despite both attempting the undercut and Dan pitting a lap later - an in-lap, which, it turns out, was 0.896s better than Vettel's in-lap. Simply stunning. (And, if you're an Autosport subscriber, there's a very good piece by Edd Straw on how Dan has turned everything around in the last 12 months after a dismal Montreal outing last year.)

Nico Rosberg: that could be a championship-defining drive. Massively impressive. And it started in Q3 when Hamilton buckled under the pressure, and Nico didn't. Then he didn't cave in to Hamilton's better start, and vigorously - but fairly - forced the issue at the first corner, and not only emerged in the lead but demoted Lewis to 3rd. And then, when the ERS issues hit both Mercedes, it was Nico who it appears immediately adopted a more cerebral issue to working out how to drive around it, whereas I'm going to guess that Lewis took a more brute-force approach which contributed to him cooking his brakes. The fact that Rosberg then worked out a way to keep Perez behind him was reminiscent of Michael Schumacher in Spain in 1994, when he drove much of the race stuck in 5th gear but brought it home 2nd. I know there are very pro and anti-Hamilton fans out there; so far this year I haven't particularly cheered for either Mercedes driver, but I must admit I'm beginning to warm to Rosberg, partly because it'll be cool to have a new champion, and there is something to be said for how he has kept doing what he can, even if Lewis is often the quicker driver.

Williams / Felipe Massa: there have been many nominations for Williams and Felipe Massa for ROTR. You are all of course free to nominate whomever you like. But I can say now that it's unlikely Williams or Massa will be getting ROTR, even though it is uber-frustrating how many opportunities Williams have squandered this year already. Particularly in relation to the question of whether they should have stopped Massa a second time, it takes a lot of hindsight to say they shouldn't have done so. Undoubtedly the softs were durable but Massa felt they were going off, and he had had that set since lap 15. Track temperatures were up and only Force India managed to pull off a competitive one-stopper. If Williams had kept Massa out, his rubber could have gone off to the point where he couldn't hold on to the lead. And we'd all say that Williams were silly not to stop him again. It was damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't territory. As it was, by pitting he actually hauled himself into the five-car battle for victory and, had he seized his chances more quickly, he was in with a real chance of the win. So all in all I think you have to say Williams' strategy over that second stop was justified. If anything, the issue was Massa's slow first stop and the decisions to pit Bottas when they did - on both occasions, on the early side in a bid to get the undercut - which seemed hasty.

The Massa-Perez collision: this appears to be the minority view on the forum, but I lean towards the stewards in apportioning more of the blame to Perez, although on the whole I would call it a racing incident. For a start, the right kink before turn 1 blurs the issue. I think you can't just straight-line it from the kink to the apex of turn 1, I think you have to remain parallel with the edge of the road. But here, initially Sergio did actually do that. He then clearly jinked left. Sure Felipe could've been even further to the left, and in fact in following the curvature of the right kink he didn't fully remain parallel with the track edge either and kept going right - a fraction - when he didn't need to, but ultimately the big jink left that was the most proximate cause of the collision came from Perez. But when you see it in real time you realise just how quickly all of it happened. Easy for us to say Massa should have allowed more margin, or Perez should have looked in his mirrors, but when you're concentrating on negotiating the right kink, then perfecting the braking zone, and downshifting, and where to position your car, all in a split-second, for me that would have been enough to give Sergio a bit of grace. But at the same time, prior history may have been against him here - he has previously had a habit of not staying in a straight line in a braking zone.

And finally, a word about Sebastian Vettel: people here will know I'm not Seb's biggest fan. But props to him for his magnanimity (at least outwardly) in the face of Ricciardo's victory. He would have every reason to be seething (and perhaps inwardly he is) because: (a) in one sense he got dudded on strategy; (b) he had been beaten by Ricciardo again; (c) it was Dan who records Red Bull's first win of the year; and (d) a Ricciardo with a win under his belt will only be even more competitive going forward. And yet Seb was the first to go over to congratulate Dan, and it's nice to see Vettel participating in the now-obligatory get-the-team-together-and-pose-with-your-trophies-and-pit-board-messages photo post-race. I could be wrong but I seem to recall that Webber wasn't always in those pics after a Vettel win.

Posted: **09 Jun 2014, 11:35**

I quite not really get why Hamilton's brake gives up while Rosberg's still functioning well until the end of the race. I have read that the MGU-K issue put some system like brakes overheated, and helped by the pit stops. Random factor for me

Posted: **09 Jun 2014, 11:53**

eytl wrote:it's nice to see Vettel participating in the now-obligatory get-the-team-together-and-pose-with-your-trophies-and-pit-board-messages photo post-race. I could be wrong but I seem to recall that Webber wasn't always in those pics after a Vettel win.

I don't think Webber was ever invited.....

Posted: **09 Jun 2014, 13:51**

I certainly don't like the amount of people suggesting the contact between Massa and Checo was a "racing incident", because thanks to such a "racing incident" we were inches from seeing a car t-boned at 200kph.

If anywhere, for obvious reasons, it's at corner entrances that there should be so definitive and straight rules about what kind of driving is allowed and what is not (and offences should be consistently (over-)stewarded, regardless of whether there is contact or not). There should be no room for interpretation, now we saw what can happen when there is room for it.

Posted: **09 Jun 2014, 14:35**

eytl wrote:OK, so this was the kind of race that would tempt me to go to the effort of writing a race review, there was so much going on and so much to say, but these days time simply does not permit it. But here are some of the things I would be saying ...

Canada: if only every second race could take place at the Circuit Gilles Villeneuve. There is something about this place, with its close walls, its layout, and the strains that it places on engines and brakes that more often than not gives us something against the grain of the rest of the season, and more craziness than four or five other races combined. And unusual winners as well ... like Thierry Boutsen in 1989, Jean Alesi in 1995, Robert Kubica in 2008, and Daniel Ricciardo today. I was thinking, Montreal is probably the closest we get these days to a circuit like the old Hockenheim - flat out blasts broken by chicanes and the odd hairpin. I mean, Spa, Suzuka and Silverstone are classic circuits especially for their high-speed sweeping corners which are particularly a test for aero, but I do like how Montreal is a test for the more mechanical elements - how well you can power a car, and how well you can stop it.

Regarding the way the CGV produced an uncharacteristically (very) boring race last year, I honestly wasn't expecting much from yesterday's race, even after the Marussias took each other out on lap 1. But then the FIs stayed out on their 1-stoppers, the Mercs hit trouble and I then was almost unable to contain my excitement of a potential Perez win. Still pleased we have had at least one new winner in F1 this year. Next up will probably be either Kevin, Valtteri or one of the FI drivers.

eytl wrote:Nico Rosberg: that could be a championship-defining drive. Massively impressive. And it started in Q3 when Hamilton buckled under the pressure, and Nico didn't. Then he didn't cave in to Hamilton's better start, and vigorously - but fairly - forced the issue at the first corner, and not only emerged in the lead but demoted Lewis to 3rd. And then, when the ERS issues hit both Mercedes, it was Nico who it appears immediately adopted a more cerebral issue to working out how to drive around it, whereas I'm going to guess that Lewis took a more brute-force approach which contributed to him cooking his brakes. The fact that Rosberg then worked out a way to keep Perez behind him was reminiscent of Michael Schumacher in Spain in 1994, when he drove much of the race stuck in 5th gear but brought it home 2nd. I know there are very pro and anti-Hamilton fans out there; so far this year I haven't particularly cheered for either Mercedes driver, but I must admit I'm beginning to warm to Rosberg, partly because it'll be cool to have a new champion, and there is something to be said for how he has kept doing what he can, even if Lewis is often the quicker driver.

I'm cheering both Rosberg and Hamilton on, even if Lewis' attitude towards many things e.g. losing is pretty bad. And regarding the way Rosberg defended from Perez, the RBRs and Massa for the 2nd half of the race, with a loss of about 160bhp and almost being swamped down the straights was very impressive. I can't say he deserves to win the title on the back of Montreal alone, but Nico did indeed drive like a champion and that race will probably go down in years to come with some of his greatest races, such as Bahrain 2006, China 2012 and Monaco 2013.

eytl wrote:Williams / Felipe Massa: there have been many nominations for Williams and Felipe Massa for ROTR. You are all of course free to nominate whomever you like. But I can say now that it's unlikely Williams or Massa will be getting ROTR, even though it is uber-frustrating how many opportunities Williams have squandered this year already. Particularly in relation to the question of whether they should have stopped Massa a second time, it takes a lot of hindsight to say they shouldn't have done so. Undoubtedly the softs were durable but Massa felt they were going off, and he had had that set since lap 15. Track temperatures were up and only Force India managed to pull off a competitive one-stopper. If Williams had kept Massa out, his rubber could have gone off to the point where he couldn't hold on to the lead. And we'd all say that Williams were silly not to stop him again. It was damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't territory. As it was, by pitting he actually hauled himself into the five-car battle for victory and, had he seized his chances more quickly, he was in with a real chance of the win. So all in all I think you have to say Williams' strategy over that second stop was justified. If anything, the issue was Massa's slow first stop and the decisions to pit Bottas when they did - on both occasions, on the early side in a bid to get the undercut - which seemed hasty.

Going 55 laps on one set of tyres would have been a tall order for Felipe, so I can see the justification of him pitting again as well. I also agree he should have cleared the train ahead much more easily, considering he had much fresher tyres, the most powerful engine, working DRS (which allegedly he didn't use, silly move that) and a quick package. It was so frustrating seeing him unable to get past Vettel and he should have on the podium at least. No comment on who was to blame for the last lap crash, which could have broken some legs with a more critical angle a la Panis in 1997.

eytl wrote:And finally, a word about Sebastian Vettel: people here will know I'm not Seb's biggest fan. But props to him for his magnanimity (at least outwardly) in the face of Ricciardo's victory. He would have every reason to be seething (and perhaps inwardly he is) because: (a) in one sense he got dudded on strategy; (b) he had been beaten by Ricciardo again; (c) it was Dan who records Red Bull's first win of the year; and (d) a Ricciardo with a win under his belt will only be even more competitive going forward. And yet Seb was the first to go over to congratulate Dan, and it's nice to see Vettel participating in the now-obligatory get-the-team-together-and-pose-with-your-trophies-and-pit-board-messages photo post-race. I could be wrong but I seem to recall that Webber wasn't always in those pics after a Vettel win.

Call me cynical but I think Vettel only hugged Ricciardo for PR reasons and in reality he must have been a little reluctant to hug Dan at leaat. This rivalry could get interesting.

Posted: **09 Jun 2014, 15:35**

eytl wrote:
If anything, the issue was Massa's slow first stop and the decisions to pit Bottas when they did - on both occasions, on the early side in a bid to get the undercut - which seemed hasty.

The Massa-Perez collision: this appears to be the minority view on the forum, but I lean towards the stewards in apportioning more of the blame to Perez, although on the whole I would call it a racing incident. For a start, the right kink before turn 1 blurs the issue. I think you can't just straight-line it from the kink to the apex of turn 1, I think you have to remain parallel with the edge of the road. But here, initially Sergio did actually do that. He then clearly jinked left. Sure Felipe could've been even further to the left, and in fact in following the curvature of the right kink he didn't fully remain parallel with the track edge either and kept going right - a fraction - when he didn't need to, but ultimately the big jink left that was the most proximate cause of the collision came from Perez. But when you see it in real time you realise just how quickly all of it happened. Easy for us to say Massa should have allowed more margin, or Perez should have looked in his mirrors, but when you're concentrating on negotiating the right kink, then perfecting the braking zone, and downshifting, and where to position your car, all in a split-second, for me that would have been enough to give Sergio a bit of grace. But at the same time, prior history may have been against him here - he has previously had a habit of not staying in a straight line in a braking zone.

I would say the main Williams issue was not telling Bottas IMMEDIATELY to get out of the way for Massa. If Massa has 10 more laps to get past the pack he should have easily won! If you are going to do team orders, do it straight away. The case for them was far clearer than Sepang as there was a much bigger discrepancy in tyres and there were more potential positions that Massa could have gained by getting through than Bottas could have in Sepang.

I am also still quite bewildered that people are blaming Massa for this. The main argument seems to be that Massa got too close to him, but surely that goes against all schools of logic into overtaking. You don't want to go to the other side of the track, ruin your own apex and simply get passed back into the next turn.

Perez says he followed same line as he did on other laps and that is a blatant untruth as you can see from the videos and this graphic below. It is unclear as to whether Williams had told Massa that Perez had braking problems, which perhaps could have allowed Massa to be more cautious. But at the end of the day, I think you have the right to expect that most drivers wouldn't angle towards the middle of the track at such a late stage when they are already committed to the corner.

Posted: **09 Jun 2014, 15:59**

It did look like Massa was at fault when I saw it the first time, but after looking at that photo and the replays, it does appear that Perez was at fault for the accident. Massa was a bit opportunistic, though, he should have waited another corner since Perez had tire and brake issues...

Once again, I'm glad they're both OK. The impact looked really heavy. Vettel should thank his lucky stars he didn't get collected in the aftermath though! :shock:

Posted: **09 Jun 2014, 16:11**

Aerospeed wrote:It did look like Massa was at fault when I saw it the first time, but after looking at that photo and the replays, it does appear that Perez was at fault for the accident. Massa was a bit opportunistic, though, he should have waited another corner since Perez had tire and brake issues...

Once again, I'm glad they're both OK. The impact looked really heavy. Vettel should thank his lucky stars he didn't get collected in the aftermath though!

It was the last lap though and Perez had lost pace because of the Vettel overtake so I think it was reasonable for Massa to have a go there and not wait any longer.

At the end of the day, it's very easy to lose perspective in these incidents as we are examining frame-by-frame photos of something that took place at 250kph over a matter of seconds, in the heat of the moment it's very difficult. There are a lot of variables involved.

But i think that the underlying concept of moving in braking areas is one of the most dangerous parts of motorsport today so I'm glad that they found Perez guilty. However, it's a shame that based on his comments today, he's not showing any remorse so probably won't learn from the incident at all...

Posted: **09 Jun 2014, 16:46**

I guess I take back my vitriol I said yesterday - I do like Force India and Massa, though now I am leaning towards "racing incident." Part of me says that what Massa was doing was not going to work and a collision seemed inevitable, whether Perez moved over or not. Looking at the aerial replay again it seemed Perez went straight and his car wobbled; maybe he went left at the last moment but it was less Perez moving left as much as going straight. Could a pass have been done if Perez went right as well? Probably, but by the same token I would not have been surprised if Massa caught Vettel instead of Perez as that Williams was coming in very hot. Ergo, now I see it as a racing incident, not because the two drivers did anything wrong, but because both drivers screwed up royally.

The other part now says - yes, Perez did cause it.

My nomination for the Stewards decision on that accident still stands, though now if Perez were given the penalty (and he has), Massa should've received one as well.

Posted: **09 Jun 2014, 17:13**

good_Ralf wrote:
eytl wrote:Nico Rosberg: that could be a championship-defining drive. Massively impressive. And it started in Q3 when Hamilton buckled under the pressure, and Nico didn't. Then he didn't cave in to Hamilton's better start, and vigorously - but fairly - forced the issue at the first corner, and not only emerged in the lead but demoted Lewis to 3rd. And then, when the ERS issues hit both Mercedes, it was Nico who it appears immediately adopted a more cerebral issue to working out how to drive around it, whereas I'm going to guess that Lewis took a more brute-force approach which contributed to him cooking his brakes. The fact that Rosberg then worked out a way to keep Perez behind him was reminiscent of Michael Schumacher in Spain in 1994, when he drove much of the race stuck in 5th gear but brought it home 2nd. I know there are very pro and anti-Hamilton fans out there; so far this year I haven't particularly cheered for either Mercedes driver, but I must admit I'm beginning to warm to Rosberg, partly because it'll be cool to have a new champion, and there is something to be said for how he has kept doing what he can, even if Lewis is often the quicker driver.

I'm cheering both Rosberg and Hamilton on, even if Lewis' attitude towards many things e.g. losing is pretty bad. And regarding the way Rosberg defended from Perez, the RBRs and Massa for the 2nd half of the race, with a loss of about 160bhp and almost being swamped down the straights was very impressive. I can't say he deserves to win the title on the back of Montreal alone, but Nico did indeed drive like a champion and that race will probably go down in years to come with some of his greatest races, such as Bahrain 2006, China 2012 and Monaco 2013.

It certainly is potentially a championship winning drive given that Hamilton is now a long way back from Rosberg and seemingly slightly downcast over his misfortunes. He probably hadn't lost the full 160bhp from the energy recovery systems - he had lost the MGU-K, but the MGU-H seems to have still been functioning - managing the gap in the first sector to minimise the risk from Perez in the final sector was a very clever and patient strategy that he exploited carefully and quite impressively.

AxelP800 wrote:I quite not really get why Hamilton's brake gives up while Rosberg's still functioning well until the end of the race. I have read that the MGU-K issue put some system like brakes overheated, and helped by the pit stops. Random factor for me

From the radio traffic between Rosberg and the pit wall, where he was asking about Hamilton's set up in the race, Hamilton seems to have been running with a more rearward brake bias than Rosberg in the earlier phases of the race.

Now, what I am about to suggest is speculation on my part, but it is one suggestion that I am going to throw out there as a possible reason why Hamilton was more adversely affected. From the FIA's graphics and radio traffic between the drivers and the pit wall, we've seen that Hamilton has, quite consistently this season, managed his fuel consumption slightly better than Rosberg has.

I wonder if, possibly, Hamilton has adapted his braking style to run with slightly more rear bias to increase the amount of energy that the MGU-K system can harvest through the rear brakes. That, in turn, means he can utilise slightly more electrical power throughout the lap than Nico can, helping him save a little more fuel and gain a slight edge over Rosberg that way.
However, in that situation there would also be the risk of higher rear brake wear were the MGU-K unable to harvest as much energy as normal - I wonder if Hamilton's higher rear brake bias in the earlier stages of the race accentuated his rear brake wear which, when the MGU-K failed, resulted in his brakes failing, whereas Rosberg, having run with a slightly more forward bias, could manage his brakes slightly better once the braking effects of the MGU-K were removed from the equation.

Posted: **09 Jun 2014, 17:21**

eytl wrote: I was thinking, Montreal is probably the closest we get these days to a circuit like the old Hockenheim - flat out blasts broken by chicanes and the odd hairpin. I mean, Spa, Suzuka and Silverstone are classic circuits especially for their high-speed sweeping corners which are particularly a test for aero, but I do like how Montreal is a test for the more mechanical elements - how well you can power a car, and how well you can stop it.

Not Monza??

Posted: **09 Jun 2014, 23:38**

I went onto the internet this morning and I found this on the Force India Facebook page:

Make of that what you will

Posted: **10 Jun 2014, 00:06**

So from that picture, it looks like Massa wasn't turning parallel to the road either, which pushes me towards the "they're both idiots" view.

Posted: **10 Jun 2014, 02:34**

In response to good_Ralf, who says that Vettel only hugged Ricciardo for PR reasons...yes, but he did. Can you imagine him hugging Webber like that?

Posted: **10 Jun 2014, 02:41**

I'm no fan of Vettel, but I didn't see anything disingenuous about his hug with Dan - surely any decent teammate would be thrilled to see his younger colleague score a first win.

Posted: **10 Jun 2014, 03:14**

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/114376

Wow, Williams have been full of bs this season, haven't they? This only proves it more.

Sergio Pérez and Force India were right to try to make it to the flag. They may have had issues, but look at Thierry Boutsen's drive at Brazil 1991. Then, he was on 10 cylinders out of 12, with only 2 gears properly working, and he finished. It might have not been for points, but he finished. The problems Pérez had weren't as bad, and they went for the race finish and points. Perfectly justified call to go for points, isn't it? Pérez could have managed 5th at the least. No problem there for a lap, as the issues didn't seem very serious. And to think that they were irresponsible? Please. We know, you all are upset, but please, get some sense punched into you. If you guys were in the same position, what would you do?

The more this crap goes on, the more I'm starting to dislike Williams. I thought I'd see better, but no.

Posted: **10 Jun 2014, 05:39**

go_Rubens wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/114376

Wow, Williams have been full of bs this season, haven't they? This only proves it more.

Sergio Pérez and Force India were right to try to make it to the flag. They may have had issues, but look at Thierry Boutsen's drive at Brazil 1991. Then, he was on 10 cylinders out of 12, with only 2 gears properly working, and he finished. It might have not been for points, but he finished. The problems Pérez had weren't as bad, and they went for the race finish and points. Perfectly justified call to go for points, isn't it? Pérez could have managed 5th at the least. No problem there for a lap, as the issues didn't seem very serious. And to think that they were irresponsible? Please. We know, you all are upset, but please, get some sense punched into you. If you guys were in the same position, what would you do?

The more this crap goes on, the more I'm starting to dislike Williams. I thought I'd see better, but no.

The frustration of all the missed opportunities is getting to them.

Posted: **10 Jun 2014, 06:25**

go_Rubens wrote:http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/114376

Wow, Williams have been full of bs this season, haven't they? This only proves it more.

Sergio Pérez and Force India were right to try to make it to the flag. They may have had issues, but look at Thierry Boutsen's drive at Brazil 1991. Then, he was on 10 cylinders out of 12, with only 2 gears properly working, and he finished. It might have not been for points, but he finished. The problems Pérez had weren't as bad, and they went for the race finish and points. Perfectly justified call to go for points, isn't it? Pérez could have managed 5th at the least. No problem there for a lap, as the issues didn't seem very serious. And to think that they were irresponsible? Please. We know, you all are upset, but please, get some sense punched into you. If you guys were in the same position, what would you do?

The more this crap goes on, the more I'm starting to dislike Williams. I thought I'd see better, but no.

They're now starting to realise that they're completely stuck in the Williams cycle, with no apparent way out.

Posted: **10 Jun 2014, 11:51**

A Lotus employee's view of the Massa-Perez incident;

It's the end of the race and everyone's car is pretty much worse for wear, so you could expect him to be sliding around, but even if he wasn't Perez is still within his rights to try to defend. He didn't weave. The onus is on the car overtaking to not hit the guy in front. Racing incident.

I have to agree with racing incident. Both drivers messed up. You can't penalise one and not the other. Perez took an unconventional line into the corner (pointed the car directly at the apex in the braking phase), but Massa's line pretty much assumed Perez wouldn't even try to defend. Perez's defense was a bit ham-fisted in that it wasn't really anything close to a normal racing line, but at the same time, Massa drove like he didn't expect any kind of defensive driving from the car in front, which is a bit naive, especially from a 'veteran' of Formula 1.

I'd have handed them both penalties, because both their actions put Vettel at unnecessary risk. If he hadn't seen the accident happening in his mirrors, Massa would have wiped him clean out.

Posted: **10 Jun 2014, 12:22**

Is anyone else finding Massa a bit of a whiner this year? When he was taken out by Kobayashi in Australia he was already saying it deserved a race ban about 10 minutes after the crash, and now he's calling for a bigger penalty for Perez.

I don't remember him being like this in previous years...although I might have just been not paying attention...

Posted: **10 Jun 2014, 12:33**

Biscione wrote:A Lotus employee's view of the Massa-Perez incident;
It's the end of the race and everyone's car is pretty much worse for wear, so you could expect him to be sliding around, but even if he wasn't Perez is still within his rights to try to defend. He didn't weave. The onus is on the car overtaking to not hit the guy in front. Racing incident.

Changing your line at brakezone onto another cars line is not within your rights to defend.

Massa didn't hit Perez, Perez hit Massa.

Calling a 300kph accident a "racing incident" implies that there's something very wrong with the rules if the incident can just be concluded with "those happen", "racing incident", "move on folks".

Posted: **10 Jun 2014, 12:40**

giraurd wrote:Calling a 300kph accident a "racing incident" implies that there's something very wrong with the rules if the incident can just be concluded with "those happen", "racing incident", "move on folks".

Not really. That's why everyone is here. Formula One is a dangerous sport with drivers racing on the edge at fast speeds. High speed incidents where nobody did anything malicious is a by-product of it. We can't expect every incident to happen at 80km/h. Neither Massa nor Perez were actively trying to take the other out, it was simply a case of each driver not reading the other correctly. These things do happen, they are the nature of F1.

Posted: **10 Jun 2014, 19:09**

I would say that the decision to give Perez the penalty was pretty marginal and Massa could have prevented the accident. Force India are certainly being very vocal that they don't agree with it. Williams and Massa are being very overly pious about this. Massa telling Perez in the medical centre that he "needs to learn"...if I was Perez it would have taken all my self restraint to not give Massa a proper head injury.

Posted: **10 Jun 2014, 20:53**

I blame Vettel.... :lol:

Posted: **10 Jun 2014, 21:09**

WeirdKerr wrote:I blame Vettel....

Don't be daft, Hamilton was clearly at fault

Posted: **10 Jun 2014, 22:53**

AustralianStig wrote:Is anyone else finding Massa a bit of a whiner this year? When he was taken out by Kobayashi in Australia he was already saying it deserved a race ban about 10 minutes after the crash, and now he's calling for a bigger penalty for Perez.

I don't remember him being like this in previous years...although I might have just been not paying attention...

Oh, he wanted Hamilton hung, drawn and quartered (or similar) back in 2011!!!

Posted: **11 Jun 2014, 06:38**

takagi_for_the_win wrote:
WeirdKerr wrote:I blame Vettel....

Don't be daft, Maldonado was clearly at fault

Posted: **11 Jun 2014, 09:49**

James1978 wrote:
AustralianStig wrote:Is anyone else finding Massa a bit of a whiner this year? When he was taken out by Kobayashi in Australia he was already saying it deserved a race ban about 10 minutes after the crash, and now he's calling for a bigger penalty for Perez.

I don't remember him being like this in previous years...although I might have just been not paying attention...

Oh, he wanted Hamilton hung, drawn and quartered (or similar) back in 2011!!!

A quartered Hamilton would certainly make it very good for Merc with respect to weight issues..

Posted: **11 Jun 2014, 10:13**

good_Ralf wrote:
takagi_for_the_win wrote:
WeirdKerr wrote:I blame Vettel....

Don't be daft, Maldonado was clearly at fault

I personally blame 2012-spec Grosjean!

Or possibly Andrea de Cesaris?

Posted: **11 Jun 2014, 14:16**

AustralianStig wrote:Is anyone else finding Massa a bit of a whiner this year? When he was taken out by Kobayashi in Australia he was already saying it deserved a race ban about 10 minutes after the crash, and now he's calling for a bigger penalty for Perez.

I don't remember him being like this in previous years...although I might have just been not paying attention...

He's always been like that tbh. whining and blaming everyone else but himself.

Posted: **11 Jun 2014, 16:20**

lgaquino wrote:
AustralianStig wrote:Is anyone else finding Massa a bit of a whiner this year? When he was taken out by Kobayashi in Australia he was already saying it deserved a race ban about 10 minutes after the crash, and now he's calling for a bigger penalty for Perez.

I don't remember him being like this in previous years...although I might have just been not paying attention...

He's always been like that tbh. whining and blaming everyone else but himself.

I have to agree. Massa is demanding race ban for everyone who crashes with him.

No surprise if the Brazilian TV coverage starts to criticize Perez all time for everything.

Posted: **11 Jun 2014, 19:51**

Can we ban drivers for whining?

Posted: **11 Jun 2014, 20:33**

LionZoo wrote:Can we ban drivers for whining?

I think a couple penalty points would be appropriate.

Posted: **11 Jun 2014, 20:47**

UgncreativeUsergname wrote:
LionZoo wrote:Can we ban drivers for whining?

I think a couple penalty points would be appropriate.

Nah, 3 race ban for teh lulz

Posted: **11 Jun 2014, 21:38**

Dj_bereta wrote:
lgaquino wrote:
AustralianStig wrote:Is anyone else finding Massa a bit of a whiner this year? When he was taken out by Kobayashi in Australia he was already saying it deserved a race ban about 10 minutes after the crash, and now he's calling for a bigger penalty for Perez.

I don't remember him being like this in previous years...although I might have just been not paying attention...

He's always been like that tbh. whining and blaming everyone else but himself.

I have to agree. Massa is demanding race ban for everyone who crashes with him.

Made all the more bemusing for those who remember Massa's early days when he couldn't so much as lace up his racing boots without writing off a Sauber in the process.

Posted: **12 Jun 2014, 00:18**

WeirdKerr wrote:I blame Vettel....

Amusingly, I think you could argue it: Massa was on fresh tyres, caught up to Vettel quickly, and couldn't get past, because Vettel is a much, much, much better driver. Massa was so frustrated that, at the end, he took an awful risk on Perez. Perez moved left a touch, sure, but Massa gave him no space. Massa was determined to get by knowing if he didn't get Perez in that corner, he'd have no chance to get Vettel on any of the subsequent corners. If Massa was any good, he would have been in first or second by the time the last lap started -- he had been flying in clean air -- he just can't pass.

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