Grand Prix Rejects

novitopoli wrote:Given that Renault tried and failed to take Sainz from Toro Rosso, could they actually try and sign Gasly as their second driver instead? (Given that both Palmer and Magnussen are set to be ditched, the latter being reported as close to Haas) At least I hope they succeed, as that would probably make the ONE THING I want for next season happen.

Fixed that for you.

They must have made CS some great promises to keep him away from Renault, a factory team don't forget with a history of winning, and get him to stay in a B-team whose job is to train drivers and not overtake Red Bull. Perhaps Red Bull know that Max is off to Ferrari in 2018 and want CS around to step up?

IceG wrote:

novitopoli wrote:Given that Renault tried and failed to take Sainz from Toro Rosso, could they actually try and sign Gasly as their second driver instead? (Given that both Palmer and Magnussen are set to be ditched, the latter being reported as close to Haas) At least I hope they succeed, as that would probably make the ONE THING I want for next season happen.

Fixed that for you.

They must have made CS some great promises to keep him away from Renault, a factory team don't forget with a history of winning, and get him to stay in a B-team whose job is to train drivers and not overtake Red Bull. Perhaps Red Bull know that Max is off to Ferrari in 2018 and want CS around to step up?

Alternatively, it could be that Sainz has been deterred by the fact that Bob Bell recently mentioned that Renault needed longer than originally anticipated to get back to full strength.

When they bought into the team, they were talking about taking 3-4 years to get back towards the front of the field, but now he is talking about 4-5 years - so even if the team did steadily improve over the next few years, it would still take quite a bit of time for any prospective move to Renault to begin to pay off.

It looks like it's on, folks! Yeeeeeeeeeeeah boiiiiiiiiii

Force India won't block Hulk.

Looks like Hulk is going to Renault. Makes sense considering his desire for a good racing seat and Renault could improve in the future (unlike Force India which 4th is the "limit" of the team). Good for Manor duo which could be promoted to Force India, bad for Palmer (or even Magnussen).

Ops, I'm too late.

Good move for Hulkenberg. He's never going to be in contention with Force India so he may as well take a punt with Renault and hope.

So I wonder who's gonna be with Perez?

What's the rumors stating?

Interesting about Hulkenberg. Renault would be a gamble, but I suppose he needs to take a gamble now at this stage in his career.

Aguaman wrote:So I wonder who's gonna be with Perez?

What's the rumors stating?

I don't see anyone but Pascal Wehrlein taking that seat based on the Mercedes relationship.

There are also rumours that Bottas is weighing Renault up as an option, in case Williams do not retain him. Much as I am known as a Williams fan, I think that long-term, Bottas may end up being better off there.

Well if Bottas scuttles off to Renault that leaves Williams needing a top-class experienced driver to join Stoll.

Or does it mean that Williams need someone more experienced than Stoll in the second seat?

The only top-class driver available at the moment is Button with perhaps Kvyat as a good back-up?

Paul Hayes wrote:Interesting about Hulkenberg. Renault would be a gamble, but I suppose he needs to take a gamble now at this stage in his career.

Whilst Force India have put in their strongest season long campaign since 1999 to take 4th in the WCC, this is probably about as high up the standings that they can get - the upcoming aero dominated regulations are going to shift the balance even further towards the manufacturers, so the team probably will remain stuck at the level of best of the privateers unless they could somehow secure the backing of a major manufacturer.

To some extent, Hulkenberg is in a position where he has no real option but to gamble on Renault managing to get things together. He is effectively blocked out from going to Mercedes and Red Bull given that they already have multiple up and coming younger drivers who are on their books, whilst he seems to have gradually fallen out of favour at Ferrari and is of no interest to McLaren - the only manufacturer team that was available was Renault.

Furthermore, Hulkenberg faces the problem that, at Force India, he is now beginning to be outshone by Perez and is beginning to lose his reputation. Hulkenberg might have been able to shake off being beaten by Perez in one year, but this year he faces the prospect of not only being beaten again by Perez, this time it would potentially be by an even larger margin (he is currently trailing Perez by 26 points, having been beaten by 20 last year, and is not that far ahead when it comes to performance in qualifying either).

Out of those two drivers, generally I feel that Perez has been the more highly praised of the two drivers this season, boosting his relative reputation whilst diminishing that of Hulkenberg. He can't really trade on his reputation from junior series any more, and whilst he had built up respect and admiration in the paddock for his performances at Sauber and Force India up to 2014, but since then he has begun losing some of that credit as Perez took the upper hand.

The rumours that suggest that Renault might have initially opened talks with Perez instead of Hulkenberg kind of reflects that issue - it was something of a "now or never" move for him, because now it is Perez that people want instead of him.

Suddenly, everything seems to be a little bit up in the air when it comes to the 2017 grid.

Mercedes - Lewis Hamilton & Nico Rosberg
Red Bull - Daniel Ricciardo & Max Verstappen
Ferrari - Kimi Raikkonen & Sebastian Vettel

Force India - Sergio Perez & VACANT
The most likely option would be for one of the Manor drivers to step up here, but it sounds as if Force India might need a pay driver, so could this open the door for a Nasr, Gutierrez or (small voice) Haryanto?

Williams - VACANT & VACANT
With Valtteri Bottas' future with the team currently in doubt, I'd imagine Williams will want an experienced driver to partner Stroll. Someone like a Grosjean, Kvyat or Magnussen, assuming they can't keep Bottas. Alternatively, you gamble on a pair of rookies and go with Stroll & Giovinazzi.

McLaren Honda - Fernando Alonso & Stoffel Vandoorne

Toro Rosso - Carlos Sainz & VACANT
It's hard to argue that Daniil Kvyat has a long term future with Red Bull, and we've seen how quickly such drivers tend to get discarded. Pierre Gasly is the natural successor, even if he's not been quite as stellar as one might hope. Or they could also go for Giovinazzi. Everyone should want GIovinazzi, surely?

Haas - VACANT & VACANT
They've been remarkably tight-lipped about who they're signing next year. You would assume they will want to keep Grosjean, as he's scored all their points, and Gutierrez seems to think he has a drive next year. Otherwise, who could they sign? I doubt Rossi will want to leave IndyCar. Maybe Magnussen or Palmer? Charles Leclerc could also be in the frame.

Renault - Nico Hulkenberg & VACANT
Renault seem to be aiming high with their driver line-up this year, having tried already to lure in Sainz & Perez, and now securing Hulkenberg. Apparently Bottas is next on their list; otherwise might they be tempted by a younger talent like Giovinazzi, Ocon, Sirotkin or Leclerc

Manor - VACANT & VACANT
I imagine they will want to keep Wehrlein and Ocon, but they'll be powerless to keep them if a bigger team comes calling. Not really sure who else would be in the frame - maybe Jordan King or Alex Lynn? Bring back Haryanto?

Sauber - VACANT & VACANT
Ericsson seems like a shoe-in with Longbow backing the team. Who would bring most money to partner him - Haryanto maybe, or Gutierrez, or Nasr yet again? And really, who would want to go to a mis-managed team with no prospects and year-old engines?

At times like this I like to ask myself what would be the most interesting grid for next year?

Mercedes - Hamilton & Rosberg
Red Bull - Ricciardo & Verstappen
Ferrari - Raikkonen & Vettel
Force India - Perez & Wehrlein
Williams - Bottas/Kvyat & Stroll
McLaren - Alonso & Vandoorne
Toro Rosso - Gasly & Sainz
Haas - Giovinazzi/Leclerc & Grosjean
Renault - Bottas/Giovinazzi & Hulkenberg
Manor - King/Leclerc & Ocon
Sauber - Ericsson & Gutierrez/Haryanto

Lance Stroll is all but confirmed at Williams, but they can't actually confirm his signing until he turns 18, because having a 17 year old driving a car with alcohol sponsorship looks more than a little dodgy.

There's also rumours that Magnussen is in talks with Haas and Force India, whilst Felipe Nasr is apparently losing a big chunk of his sponsorship at the end of the season, probably due to the economic and political situation in Brazil...

Aislabie wrote:Haas - VACANT & VACANT
They've been remarkably tight-lipped about who they're signing next year. You would assume they will want to keep Grosjean, as he's scored all their points, and Gutierrez seems to think he has a drive next year. Otherwise, who could they sign? I doubt Rossi will want to leave IndyCar. Maybe Magnussen or Palmer? Charles Leclerc could also be in the frame.

Rossi won't be coming back to F1, he's just signed a three year contract with Andretti Autosport, and as the reigning Indy 500 champion, he's got a good thing going there.

East Londoner wrote:Lance Stroll is all but confirmed at Williams, but they can't actually confirm his signing until he turns 18, because having a 17 year old driving a car with alcohol sponsorship looks more than a little dodgy.

Makes sense. He's apparently also bringing in more money than Maldonado

Aislabie wrote:Suddenly, everything seems to be a little bit up in the air when it comes to the 2017 grid.

Mercedes - Lewis Hamilton & Nico Rosberg
Red Bull - Daniel Ricciardo & Max Verstappen
Ferrari - Kimi Raikkonen & Sebastian Vettel
McLaren Honda - Fernando Alonso & Stoffel Vandoorne

Force India - Sergio Perez & VACANT
The most likely option would be for one of the Manor drivers to step up here, but it sounds as if Force India might need a pay driver, so could this open the door for a Nasr, Gutierrez or (small voice) Haryanto?

Williams - VACANT & VACANT
With Valtteri Bottas' future with the team currently in doubt, I'd imagine Williams will want an experienced driver to partner Stroll. Someone like a Grosjean, Kvyat or Magnussen, assuming they can't keep Bottas. Alternatively, you gamble on a pair of rookies and go with Stroll & Giovinazzi.

Toro Rosso - Carlos Sainz & VACANT
It's hard to argue that Daniil Kvyat has a long term future with Red Bull, and we've seen how quickly such drivers tend to get discarded. Pierre Gasly is the natural successor, even if he's not been quite as stellar as one might hope. Or they could also go for Giovinazzi. Everyone should want GIovinazzi, surely?

Haas - VACANT & VACANT
They've been remarkably tight-lipped about who they're signing next year. You would assume they will want to keep Grosjean, as he's scored all their points, and Gutierrez seems to think he has a drive next year. Otherwise, who could they sign? I doubt Rossi will want to leave IndyCar. Maybe Magnussen or Palmer? Charles Leclerc could also be in the frame.

Renault - Nico Hulkenberg & VACANT
Renault seem to be aiming high with their driver line-up this year, having tried already to lure in Sainz & Perez, and now securing Hulkenberg. Apparently Bottas is next on their list; otherwise might they be tempted by a younger talent like Giovinazzi, Ocon, Sirotkin or Leclerc

Manor - VACANT & VACANT
I imagine they will want to keep Wehrlein and Ocon, but they'll be powerless to keep them if a bigger team comes calling. Not really sure who else would be in the frame - maybe Jordan King or Alex Lynn? Bring back Haryanto?

Sauber - VACANT & VACANT
Ericsson seems like a shoe-in with Longbow backing the team. Who would bring most money to partner him - Haryanto maybe, or Gutierrez, or Nasr yet again? And really, who would want to go to a mis-managed team with no prospects and year-old engines?

For Force India, my gut feeling is that Mercedes will probably push for a deal to put Wehrlein in the team, perhaps sweetening the deal by offering Force India a discount on their engines.

It would give Mercedes a better chance to evaluate his potential in a more competitive car and let him sharpen his skills racing in the midfield pack, whilst I expect that Force India would welcome a potentially quite competitive driver that could help them secure another solid WCC finish in 2017.

For Williams, most seem to think that a Bottas-Stroll line up is all but sealed for 2017, even if Bottas does seem to have kept his options open for a while. Over at Toro Rosso, I think that the most likely option is a Sainz Jr-Gasly line up - as you note, Kvyat seems broken in spirit and it looks like there is no way back to Red Bull now.

Renault is interesting - there were some rumours swirling around Ocon, but he must be split between wanting to take that seat and the possibility in the longer term of a potentially better seat at Mercedes in the future.
You make a good point that the team might fancy taking a chance on a younger driver now that they have a more experienced driver (Hulkenberg) who can potentially lead the team - I suspect they'd go for Ocon if they can get him. Alternatively, I wonder if they might fancy trying to lure Grosjean back?

Speaking of Grosjean, my initial feeling is that he will stay at Haas with Gutierrez - perhaps as much because both of those drivers probably won't be able to move elsewhere. Given the big rule change for 2017, Steiner might well want to maintain some stability at the team by keeping the same drivers for next year.

For Manor, if Mercedes are able to hold onto him, I suspect that Ocon will be placed there to continue his development - out of the other drivers you have listed, Jordan King might be a more appealing prospect.

You're right that Sauber doesn't sound like a particularly appealing prospect for next year - Ericsson is almost certainly a shoe in because of his links. Perhaps Leclerc might have a chance due to his links with Ferrari?

I was under the impression that Haas had signed Grosjean already and had furthermore ruled out Leclerc from getting the drive next season. Renualt i believe will sign Ocon or keep one of their drivers most likely Kmag. I'm unsure what Williams would do if Bottas were to leave, try and sign Wehrlien maybe.?

andrew wrote:I was under the impression that Haas had signed Grosjean already and had furthermore ruled out Leclerc from getting the drive next season.

One for the older members....

Regarding Williams, does anyone think Massa might have retired prematurely? If Bottas goes to Renault and with Button definitely not going there now, Massa staying on would have been ideal for the youngster Stroll to learn from as an experienced teammate.

I think Massa is frustrated because Williams is losing ground and the other option (Renault) isn't going to have a good car soon. So he opted to retire and race elsewhere with a good car.

CoopsII wrote:

andrew wrote:I was under the impression that Haas had signed Grosjean already and had furthermore ruled out Leclerc from getting the drive next season.

One for the older members....

What's Steptoe and Son got to do with it?

James1978 wrote:Regarding Williams, does anyone think Massa might have retired prematurely? If Bottas goes to Renault and with Button definitely not going there now, Massa staying on would have been ideal for the youngster Stroll to learn from as an experienced teammate.

In terms of mentoring, yes, but there's a chance that Felipe could still do that; he's said that he wants to stay in the F1 paddock for a bit longer, and helping Stroll out over a race weekend could certainly work. In terms of performance, Massa's been nowhere all year, so it's certainly time for him to call it a day.

CoopsII wrote:

andrew wrote:I was under the impression that Haas had signed Grosjean already and had furthermore ruled out Leclerc from getting the drive next season.

One for the older members....

Ah, Monsieur Leclerc!

Miguel98 wrote:

CoopsII wrote:

andrew wrote:I was under the impression that Haas had signed Grosjean already and had furthermore ruled out Leclerc from getting the drive next season.

One for the older members....

Ah, Monsieur Leclerc!

Race winner takes off his helmet, and says" "It is I, LeClerc!"

Lance Stroll has been confirmed as a Williams driver in 2017...





...by Lawrence Stroll.

Jordan King driving in FP1 for Manor at Austin must mean something ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/37682315

tommykl wrote:Lance Stroll has been confirmed as a Williams driver in 2017...





...by Lawrence Stroll.

You know, there would have been a time when a breach of protocol or faux pas like that would've resulted in Patrick Head or Frank Williams telling Stroll Snr to stick his money up his arse.

Shame.

Ataxia wrote:"Sgt. Hamilton, are you wounded?"
"Nico hit me."

<chortle>

But the thing is, despite it not being F1 related, Hamilton appearing in this game isn't a big deal is it? For once I'm not being Granpa and demanding we go back to the good olde days as I happen to believe the likes of James Hunt, for example, would've loved to appear in something like this, and so would many others.

Alain Prost, probably not.

In would prefer kimi Raikkonen to be honest. "Just leave me alone I know what I'm doing" Kimi you missed Hamilton, "yeah I was having a shite"

Aislabie wrote:Haas - VACANT & VACANT
They've been remarkably tight-lipped about who they're signing next year. You would assume they will want to keep Grosjean, as he's scored all their points, and Gutierrez seems to think he has a drive next year. Otherwise, who could they sign? I doubt Rossi will want to leave IndyCar. Maybe Magnussen or Palmer? Charles Leclerc could also be in the frame.

Rossi's out: http://www.racer.com/indycar/item/13496 ... h-andretti
You might want to scratch Leclerc off that list as well. http://www.motorsport.com/gp2/news/lecl ... 17-840516/

golic_2004 wrote:

Aislabie wrote:Haas - VACANT & VACANT
They've been remarkably tight-lipped about who they're signing next year. You would assume they will want to keep Grosjean, as he's scored all their points, and Gutierrez seems to think he has a drive next year. Otherwise, who could they sign? I doubt Rossi will want to leave IndyCar. Maybe Magnussen or Palmer? Charles Leclerc could also be in the frame.

Rossi's out: http://www.racer.com/indycar/item/13496 ... h-andretti
You might want to scratch Leclerc off that list as well. http://www.motorsport.com/gp2/news/lecl ... 17-840516/

That's interesting - it would suggest that both Gasly and Giovinazzi have F1 seats lined up. Toro Rosso and Haas perhaps?

Here's something that's pretty surprising (to me anyway). It's actually possible that Daniil Kvyat may not be totally screwed after all.

Please, please, please sign him, FI...

I hope they choose him too- Perez and Kvyat would be a strong, reasonably consistent lineup as well (so long as Daniil stops colliding with Vettel). One thing I do find strange is that they are suggesting Ocon, but shunning Wehrlein, who has been the more impressive driver so far out of the current Manor drivers in my opinion, even if the Austria point was lucky. Also odd is that they are seriously considering Palmer- I can't think of any real logic to signing him, besides MSV money.

This Could Be You wrote:I hope they choose him too- Perez and Kvyat would be a strong, reasonably consistent lineup as well (so long as Daniil stops colliding with Vettel). One thing I do find strange is that they are suggesting Ocon, but shunning Wehrlein, who has been the more impressive driver so far out of the current Manor drivers in my opinion, even if the Austria point was lucky. Also odd is that they are seriously considering Palmer- I can't think of any real logic to signing him, besides MSV money.

Force India have both Wehrlein and Ocon's data having tested them in the past, and it's no secret that they prefer Ocon. However, I REALLY hope Kvyat's able to get the seat, it would be great.

This Could Be You wrote:Also odd is that they are seriously considering Palmer- I can't think of any real logic to signing him, besides MSV money.

You could put Palmer's apparent rising stock down to the fact that Magnussen, very disappointingly, failed to thrash him this year. Such a failure to do so might also be part of why Renault and others are being quite hesitant about signing him for next year.

Palmer's recent comments on how Renault doesn't value their drivers' efforts are something else entirely. Am I the only one who thinks that the most vivid part of the silly season is the WORST possible time to criticize your team so bluntly and stupidly? I mean, efforts. What efforts did Palmer do this year? He's simply nowhere, not unlike his teammate to be honest. Maybe that one point made him dizzy and he decided he was a racing superstar, every team fighting over him?

(that's about time I have to admit Palmer is the first driver in a long time whom I genuinely dislike.)

solarcold wrote:Palmer's recent comments on how Renault doesn't value their drivers' efforts are something else entirely. Am I the only one who thinks that the most vivid part of the silly season is the WORST possible time to criticize your team so bluntly and stupidly? I mean, efforts. What efforts did Palmer do this year? He's simply nowhere, not unlike his teammate to be honest. Maybe that one point made him dizzy and he decided he was a racing superstar, every team fighting over him?

(that's about time I have to admit Palmer is the first driver in a long time whom I genuinely dislike.)

Personally, I reckon he has a point, but agree that he could not have picked a worse time to say it. When you see one of the bananas on an on-board camera, both Palmer and K-Mag are having to wrestle the car all the time in a way nobody else has to just to keep it on the tarmac. I'd suggest that Magnussen's efforts have been pretty heroic and may have made Palmer look very ordinary by comparison, but they've both surprised me this season. If he is retained, I would expect Magnussen to outscore Hulkenberg next season.

Apparently Kvyat is staying at STR.

It's now being confirmed everywhere; on Autosport, as well as F1's official website and Instagram.

[Breathes monumental sigh of relief]

I suppose that will be good in the short term, but it's a shame he couldn't move to FI - it would have been good to see him race without all the pressure from the Red Bull management on his shoulders, and be allowed to fight with Ricciardo and The Golden Child - hopefully the latter can still happen.