Grand Prix Rejects

A championship title is a championship title. Senna won three, Prost won four. Irregardless of the controversial nature of some of the title challenges, they won their respective championships. That's the end of the argument, as far as I'm concerned.

Senna's tragic demise obviously obfuscates any assessment of his legacy. Even beyond his native Brazil, he's been deified, his achievements mythified and he's evolved from a mere great racing driver to something akin to a demigod. Unfortunately, this apotheosis has come at the expense of another great driver of the era, Alain Prost.

This situation has created an unenviable predicament for the legacies of both drivers. Prost, obviously, has been, and continues to be subject to an disproportionate level of opprobrium, a categorically inappropriate treatment considering the scale of his skill and his achievements. Senna, on the other hand, is having his legacy marginalized and tainted by disaffected fans presumably weary of the dogmatism flagrantly flaunted by the legions of rabid, zealous Senna evangelists intent on disparaging every other notable driver in history.

There are days when I rate Senna higher than Prost, and there are days when I rate Prost higher than Senna. Both belong in that sacrosanct echelon of legendary drivers, in the company of the likes of Juan Manuel Fangio and Jim Clark. And insofar as my opinion goes, that marks the end of this debate.

Faustus wrote:

go_Rubens wrote:The F1 talent pool has been shrinking since GP2 started. Look at the drivers in GP2 and some in F1 today. I've said enough.

It's not a consequence of GP2, it's a consequence of the lack of an accepted career path from karting to Formula 1 and the various series at similar levels of performance, all vying for the same pool of drivers.

It does create something of a difficult position, it must be said - whilst narrowing down the number of championships so there is a clearer career path, not just for F1 but for other recognised major series, would be quite attractive, GP2 does show some of the disadvantages of concentrating the career path of drivers hoping to get into F1 into a few hands (such as the lack of competition leading to abusive price gouging by the organisers).

mario wrote:

Faustus wrote:

go_Rubens wrote:The F1 talent pool has been shrinking since GP2 started. Look at the drivers in GP2 and some in F1 today. I've said enough.

It's not a consequence of GP2, it's a consequence of the lack of an accepted career path from karting to Formula 1 and the various series at similar levels of performance, all vying for the same pool of drivers.

It does create something of a difficult position, it must be said - whilst narrowing down the number of championships so there is a clearer career path, not just for F1 but for other recognised major series, would be quite attractive, GP2 does show some of the disadvantages of concentrating the career path of drivers hoping to get into F1 into a few hands (such as the lack of competition leading to abusive price gouging by the organisers).

There is another problem as well. GP2 and WSR 3.5 are seen and promoted as training grounds for Formula 1, they are not a stand-alone series, in the way that Formula 5000, A1GP and Superleague Formula were. I suppose AutoGP is the closest thing to a stand-alone single-seater racing formula, although some of the top drivers are aspiring Formula 1 drivers. We need a single-seater racing formula to co-exist alongside the WEC, ELMS and other categories as a viable racing series independent of Formula 1, correctly promoted and scheduled, that can act as a professional racing series for those teams and drivers that will not reach Formula 1.

Faustus wrote:

mario wrote:

Faustus wrote:
It's not a consequence of GP2, it's a consequence of the lack of an accepted career path from karting to Formula 1 and the various series at similar levels of performance, all vying for the same pool of drivers.

It does create something of a difficult position, it must be said - whilst narrowing down the number of championships so there is a clearer career path, not just for F1 but for other recognised major series, would be quite attractive, GP2 does show some of the disadvantages of concentrating the career path of drivers hoping to get into F1 into a few hands (such as the lack of competition leading to abusive price gouging by the organisers).

There is another problem as well. GP2 and WSR 3.5 are seen and promoted as training grounds for Formula 1, they are not a stand-alone series, in the way that Formula 5000, A1GP and Superleague Formula were. I suppose AutoGP is the closest thing to a stand-alone single-seater racing formula, although some of the top drivers are aspiring Formula 1 drivers. We need a single-seater racing formula to co-exist alongside the WEC, ELMS and other categories as a viable racing series independent of Formula 1, correctly promoted and scheduled, that can act as a professional racing series for those teams and drivers that will not reach Formula 1.

Could Formula E be that series?

Ataxia wrote:

Faustus wrote:There is another problem as well. GP2 and WSR 3.5 are seen and promoted as training grounds for Formula 1, they are not a stand-alone series, in the way that Formula 5000, A1GP and Superleague Formula were. I suppose AutoGP is the closest thing to a stand-alone single-seater racing formula, although some of the top drivers are aspiring Formula 1 drivers. We need a single-seater racing formula to co-exist alongside the WEC, ELMS and other categories as a viable racing series independent of Formula 1, correctly promoted and scheduled, that can act as a professional racing series for those teams and drivers that will not reach Formula 1.

Could Formula E be that series?

Maybe. I remain to be convinced that Formula E is financially sustainable, because I think there will be serious start-up costs for the teams involved.
I guess my point is that single-seaters shouldn't be just Formula 1.

Since the Senna film in particular, treatment of Prost (particularly on youtube comment sections) is generally pretty appalling - although of course youtube comments are legendarily not a hive of vibrant and informed debate, it is often useful in regards to gleaning the general degree of popular support of the masses. Although Senna was clearly a fascinating individual, it appears the mysticism has served to blind people from criticising his sometimes near-deadly flaws, and despite admiring him considerably, when re-watching those old 80s races I generally find myself rooting for Prost. It seems a shame that Prost will forever be under Senna's shadow in popular opinion, especially considering in many ways he was a far more complete driver.

CoopsII wrote:

good_Ralf wrote:

CoopsII wrote:Based on some of the criteria often cited on these lovely pages Alain Prost was undeserving of the 1993 WDC therefore they both had the same amount of 'earned' titles

Then who desreved the 1993 title? If Senna did then he would have had four 'earned' titles to Prost's three so they still wouldn't have the same number.

Im just highlighting the absurdity of the 'Underserving Champion' nonsense that often pollutes the pages, particularly recently when Vettel has been doing a Prost '93 by beating others in the best car.

The difference is Prost had already more than proven himself, and whether one feels he 'deserved' 1993, it's relatively indisputable he did deserve the 1988 title, by the simple virtue of having more points than Senna - it was almost a karmic turn of fate he was able to glean a relatively easy championship. Do people doubt Schumacher was a true great? Of course not. But they certainly don't hold his years in an outrageously superior car as proof of said talent, as by that logic in 2002 and 2004 Rubens Barrichello was the second best driver on the grid, which is patently silly. I'd argue a driver's greatness is found somewhere lying between blunt statistics and the degree to which they are considered a 'legend'. It's clear many rabid Senna fans have shifted too far towards the 'mystical' side, but we also cannot measure a driver by mere numbers. And although I'm certainly not an Alonso fan by any stretch of the imagination, he drove better than Vettel, in a worse car, so to me he 'deserves' the 2012 championship. If Vettel were to do the same in 2014, I would be arguing the contrary.

Mexico needs to get its GP back. Mexicans have been influenced into F1, and Mexico City has a great track.

Sometimes, just sometimes, the memories of Senna and Prost overshadow the acheivements of other notable WDCs.

go_Rubens wrote:Mexico needs to get its GP back. Mexicans have been influenced into F1, and Mexico City has a great track.

Not unpopular because at least there is hereitage there compared to say Thailand

roblomas52 wrote:

go_Rubens wrote:Mexico needs to get its GP back. Mexicans have been influenced into F1, and Mexico City has a great track.

Not unpopular because at least there is hereitage there compared to say Thailand

I want to see modern F1 cars going into Peraltada, so yeah I'm supporting the return of the Mexican GP. Now we just need Carlos Slim to reach out to his pocket money and flash it in front of Bernie's eyes.

Nuppiz wrote:I want to see modern F1 cars going into Peraltada, so yeah I'm supporting the return of the Mexican GP. Now we just need Carlos Slim to reach out to his pocket money and flash it in front of Bernie's eyes.

I agree about Mexico City's circuit coming back. I like the characteristics of the circuit, especially the last corner and also the fact that the circuit produced some fantastic races, such as 1986 and of course, 1990.

Nuppiz wrote:

roblomas52 wrote:

go_Rubens wrote:Mexico needs to get its GP back. Mexicans have been influenced into F1, and Mexico City has a great track.

Not unpopular because at least there is hereitage there compared to say Thailand

I want to see modern F1 cars going into Peraltada, so yeah I'm supporting the return of the Mexican GP. Now we just need Carlos Slim to reach out to his pocket money and flash it in front of Bernie's eyes.

Didn't they put a kink in the middle of the Peraltada?

takagi_for_the_win wrote:Didn't they put a kink in the middle of the Peraltada?

It was merely a temporary installment by Champ Car and NASCAR. The Peraltada is still available in the same way it was back in 1992.

roblomas52 wrote:

go_Rubens wrote:Mexico needs to get its GP back. Mexicans have been influenced into F1, and Mexico City has a great track.

Not unpopular because at least there is hereitage there compared to say Thailand

Prince Bira just called

I''m just looking at the bittersweet McLaren MP4-24 and I think its really beautiful.

good_Ralf wrote:I''m just looking at the bittersweet McLaren MP4-24 and I think its really beautiful.

The onboard camera's of the Mclaren's that year were some of my favourites I'll admit

Speaking of 2009, I don't think Vettel deserved the criticism for his championship-costing mistakes. After all, he was just 21/22 at the time and although he was in a car that could easily challenge for the championship, young, inexperienced drivers are never doing to drive flawlessly and they are always going to slip at times.

Nuppiz wrote:

takagi_for_the_win wrote:Didn't they put a kink in the middle of the Peraltada?

It was merely a temporary installment by Champ Car and NASCAR. The Peraltada is still available in the same way it was back in 1992.

Now that NASCAR isn't there and CART doesn't exist anymore that kink can be removed again.

Colin Kolles wasn't that bad.

Onxy Wrecked wrote:

Nuppiz wrote:

takagi_for_the_win wrote:Didn't they put a kink in the middle of the Peraltada?

It was merely a temporary installment by Champ Car and NASCAR. The Peraltada is still available in the same way it was back in 1992.

Now that NASCAR isn't there and CART doesn't exist anymore that kink can be removed again.

I agree with this.

good_Ralf wrote:Speaking of 2009, I don't think Vettel deserved the criticism for his championship-costing mistakes. After all, he was just 21/22 at the time and although he was in a car that could easily challenge for the championship, young, inexperienced drivers are never doing to drive flawlessly and they are always going to slip at times.

I also agree to this. But if he makes a championship-costing this year, we can laugh all we want, eh?

No disrespect to Vettel, he is a good driver, but if he does things like he did in '09, it would be a laughable failure in my eyes.

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:Colin Kolles wasn't that bad.

I can go with this.

BlindCaveSalamander wrote:Colin Kolles wasn't that bad.

Depends what context that's in. If you mean he wasn't bad at keeping teams afloat, I'd certainly have to agree with you (his days at Team Silverstone when they had new owners every other day, and his spell at HRT certainly back this up). However, if you were looking for a man to drive a team forward, he most certainly wouldn't be the man. He's more the kind of principal to bring security and safety to a team on a limited budget. In footballing terms, he's similar to Allardyce or Tony Pulis as managers; unfashionable but steady and solid in a low-key way.

It isnt just Pirellis fault.

CoopsII wrote:It isnt just Pirellis fault.

I think everyone; the FIA, Pirelli and the teams are to blame. Mainly Pirelli, because they built a tyre which wasn't suitable to the track, just like Michelin in Indianapolis. But also the FIA, who started the "build tyres for a better show" rubbish. And also the teams, who refused to use an improved tyre, because they feared more for their results than their drivers' security.

pi314159 wrote:

CoopsII wrote:It isnt just Pirellis fault.

I think everyone; the FIA, Pirelli and the teams are to blame. Mainly Pirelli, because they built a tyre which wasn't suitable to the track, just like Michelin in Indianapolis. But also the FIA, who started the "build tyres for a better show" rubbish. And also the teams, who refused to use an improved tyre, because they feared more for their results than their drivers' security.

This. This is making me think again and again about the situation. This makes sense. This is making me come to a conclusion. This has made me make my conclusion. How many times do I have to use the word this? Too many.

Agree with this, I do.

The Mercedes F1 W03 wasn't a bad car.

good_Ralf wrote:The Mercedes F1 W03 wasn't a bad car.

It wasn't a bad car they just couldn't develop it through the season

Kimi-ICE wrote:

good_Ralf wrote:The Mercedes F1 W03 wasn't a bad car.

It wasn't a bad car they just couldn't develop it through the season

Also despite its platypus nose, I don't think it was that ugly.

Kimi-ICE wrote:

good_Ralf wrote:The Mercedes F1 W03 wasn't a bad car.

It wasn't a bad car they just couldn't develop it through the season

Which led to USA 2012 and their first ROTR as a team.

Venezuela needs a GP as well.

go_Rubens wrote:Venezuela needs a GP as well.

Why? 1 driver and Venezuelan money, both in the same team, does not warrant a GP. Finland should get a race first, by that logic.

Salamander wrote:

go_Rubens wrote:Venezuela needs a GP as well.

Why? 1 driver and Venezuelan money, both in the same team, does not warrant a GP. Finland should get a race first, by that logic.

Except Venezuela has much more money than Finland.

After seeing him at Pikes Peak, I want to see Loeb in an F1 car.

Wallio wrote:After seeing him at Pikes Peak, I want to see Loeb in an F1 car.

+1

The pile-up at Spa 2012 should have resulted in a red-flag. It was so terrifying and there was debris everywhere.

good_Ralf wrote:The pile-up at Spa 2012 should have resulted in a red-flag. It was so terrifying and there was debris everywhere.

Well, I wanted to see Maldonado DSQed for the jump start which could have caused the crash. Which could have happened with the red flag. So therefore, I agree with this.

go_Rubens wrote:

Wallio wrote:After seeing him at Pikes Peak, I want to see Loeb in an F1 car.

+1

To old and not fast enough when he tried back in 2009

go_Rubens wrote:

good_Ralf wrote:The pile-up at Spa 2012 should have resulted in a red-flag. It was so terrifying and there was debris everywhere.

Well, I wanted to see Maldonado DSQed for the jump start which could have caused the crash. Which could have happened with the red flag. So therefore, I agree with this.

Woah, you wanted someone to be DSQ'ed for jumping the start? Tad draconian, do you not think?

takagi_for_the_win wrote:

go_Rubens wrote:

good_Ralf wrote:The pile-up at Spa 2012 should have resulted in a red-flag. It was so terrifying and there was debris everywhere.

Well, I wanted to see Maldonado DSQed for the jump start which could have caused the crash. Which could have happened with the red flag. So therefore, I agree with this.

Woah, you wanted someone to be DSQ'ed for jumping the start? Tad draconian, do you not think?

By that logic, Frentzen should have been disqualified at Nurburgring '99 for jumping the first start, vrfore there was a red flag.

FullMetalJack wrote:By that logic, Frentzen should have been disqualified at Nurburgring '99 for jumping the first start, vrfore there was a red flag.

Except he didn't jump the start because the start was aborted, because the officials botched the procedure. Maldonado had absolutely no excuse. Plus it was the most blatant jump start I've seen in my life.

Salamander wrote:

FullMetalJack wrote:By that logic, Frentzen should have been disqualified at Nurburgring '99 for jumping the first start, vrfore there was a red flag.

Except he didn't jump the start because the start was aborted, because the officials botched the procedure.

Here's what happened back in 1999. I don't think anyone on the grid knew what was going on, because the first 5 cars drive off, most of the midfield stays where they are, and a few cars at the back also pull away.

East Londoner wrote:

Salamander wrote:

FullMetalJack wrote:By that logic, Frentzen should have been disqualified at Nurburgring '99 for jumping the first start, vrfore there was a red flag.

Except he didn't jump the start because the start was aborted, because the officials botched the procedure.

Here's what happened back in 1999. I don't think anyone on the grid knew what was going on, because the first 5 cars drive off, most of the midfield stays where they are, and a few cars at the back also pull away.

It looked as though everyone else had stalled on the grid when I first saw this